The Eidolon is better than (insert class here).
I keep seeing this on the boards, in play test threads and in "the sky is falling" threads.
We have basically 4 types of characters in the game at present. Damage dealers, skill monkeys, arcane and divine casters.
The more classes we add the more likely it is we are going to step on some toes.
Do you have 2 barbarians in your 2 man group? 2 fighters? 2 rogues?
You might. But I would bet its relatively uncommon.
The Eidolon is powerful. The power of it though is in its versatility.
Yes. It can be as powerful as a barbarian. It Does Not have to be built that way though. It can be build as a skill monkey. or as a multi-role creature. (decent damage, decent armor, etc).
Please, Please quit calling for it to not be equal to a barbarian when fully buffed. Not every party has a barbarian. Maybe the party barbarian /wants to play a summoner/.
This isn't a balance issue- it is a group dynamic issue. Your players shouldn't build their Big E's to step on the toes of the other party members. It isn't something Paizo can prevent. Ever.
Its just like 2 PC's creating barbarians.
If we make the summoner and Big E weaker than every other class in fear of "stepping on their toes" then all we've really done is create some crappy 3.5 splat book class that sounds neat in fluff but that sucks to play. Lets Please not go there. The Summoner needs to be viable in his own right.
-S
The Eidolon is better than (insert class here).
I keep seeing this on the boards, in play test threads and in "the sky is falling" threads.
We have basically 4 types of characters in the game at present. Damage dealers, skill monkeys, arcane and divine casters.
The more classes we add the more likely it is we are going to step on some toes.
Do you have 2 barbarians in your 2 man group? 2 fighters? 2 rogues?
You might. But I would bet its relatively uncommon.The Eidolon is powerful. The power of it though is in its versatility.
Yes. It can be as powerful as a barbarian. It Does Not have to be built that way though. It can be build as a skill monkey. or as a multi-role creature. (decent damage, decent armor, etc).Please, Please quit calling for it to not be equal to a barbarian when fully buffed. Not every party has a barbarian. Maybe the party barbarian /wants to play a summoner/.
This isn't a balance issue- it is a group dynamic issue. Your players shouldn't build their Big E's to step on the toes of the other party members. It isn't something Paizo can prevent. Ever.
Its just like 2 PC's creating barbarians.If we make the summoner and Big E weaker than every other class in fear of "stepping on their toes" then all we've really done is create some crappy 3.5 splat book class that sounds neat in fluff but that sucks to play. Lets Please not go there. The Summoner needs to be viable in his own right.
-S
So what you're saying is that it should be possible to play a "Summoner" who will actually be the "Buffing follower" of the team's Eidolon (imagine this more as a race...) Barbarian/Rogue/whatever...
I personally don't agree to this philosophy.
I agree with you when you call for making The SUMMONER viable in his own right. I hereby mean making the summoner more powerful and the Eidolon less. Not less customizable, not less able to add to multiple parts of a team, but definitely NOT able to fill the place of an ordinary Player Character on it's own. If you want to play Barbarian, you should play a Barbarian, not an Eidolon with a Summoner (that's how I'm defining the class these days) ...
I'd say the Summoner deserves to be valuable as a summoner. Not as an Eidolon's pretty, little extra, mainly there for some buffs. That just doesn't work for me.
You're ever so free to disagree, I hope you can say the same to me.
The Summoner IS viable in his own right; he's certainly stronger than an Adept even ignoring all the Eidolon-related stuff, which means he's at least a Tier 4 class all by himself. It's your choice to play him as "an Eidolon's pretty, little extra, mainly there for some buffs". The class doesn't read that way and doesn't have to be played that way. Thus, the blame for playing it that way (if there's any reason for blame at all, which I strongly disagree with!) falls squarely on the player's shoulders.
If the party has no Barbarian and I want to design my Big E as one and buff him accordingly so that myself, the class (the Big E is part of the class, no matter what order you put it in), why is this bad?
Answer:
It isn't.
Its no more wrong than playing a cleric as a martial character, using his own buffs to make him capable of that position.
Which he can still do very, very viably.
There is nothing wrong with /multiple/ classes being able to fill a role.
The issue is when *players* decide to double up on a role in a small party so that someone feels screwed. "jo does my class so why did i roll this?"
its a party dynamic issue not a Paizo-design issue.
If you do not -want- to play your summoner as Big E and lil s, then Do Not do it. Fine. Simple. No problem.
But please don't try to cram that down my throat. i LIKe the idea of the player being secondary to his class ability. Thats what the class has been designed / for /. As has already been stated by its creator.
It not only is possible and should be possible to play a buffing follower of Big E, but thats the very intent of the class. They have said so on these here threads already.
-S
Agreed.
The class is supposed to be one where the class ability over powers the PC himself.
If you don't want that- then the summoner isn't for you. (likewise- if you don't like selecting spells every morning then don't play a wizard, and so on).
-S
I disagree with weakinig the summoner, but do think the eidolion will get pulled in a bit. I see no reason to penalize him more then a druid gets for his pet dieing, already the druid out classes him, his pet just outclasses the druids pet is all
If you strip away the Eidolon, you have nothing left anymore with the current changes. Except a severely weakened party buffer. It is unfortunate it had to come to this due to hypothetical situations that were unrealistic to begin with. The Eidolon is the class now, the summoner has been left with very little if anything for an adventuring class.
The eidolon always was the class. The whole concept of the summoner was meant to be based aroudn having a powerful pet as its primary class feature. So I fail to see what is unfortunate about meeting design plans and expectations.
The summoner already has a huge penalty when the Eidolon gets killed.
He can only summon it once a day. Period. No exceptions no extensions.
If he has to resummon it in battle then every spell he had on it, is gone. He has to respend all the resources it took to buff him as well as the time taken (if in battle) to resummon it.
And if he's had to resummon it already that day for some reason then .. he's just out of luck.
No more Big E for the day.
-S
Yes it is.
But the summoner didn't die. He just lost a class ability for a day.
Compare it instead to the barbarian who runs out of rage on the 2nd encounter.
Functional for the rest? yes. At his best? Clearly not.
About the only person who is more screwed than the summoner is the wizard who loses his spellbook but failed to make a backup.
-S
Yes it is.
But the summoner didn't die. He just lost a class ability for a day.
Compare it instead to the barbarian who runs out of rage on the 2nd encounter.
Functional for the rest? yes. At his best? Clearly not.
About the only person who is more screwed than the summoner is the wizard who loses his spellbook but failed to make a backup.
-S
Witch who's familiar dies after she spends 50,000gp on spells to teach it lots of spells.
No, I am saying that a dead barbarian and a dead eidolon is an inaccurate comparison.
You are saying that "the barbarian is more screwed".
Well.. thats obvious. The PC dying is always more screwed than the one who loses a class ability for the day. That just makes sense.
The summoner who dies is also more screwed than the barbarian who runs out of rage in the 2nd out of 4 encounters for the day.
The stataement doesn't move the ball any.
If the Eidolon is too powerful then pin the Eidolon's ear back not the Summoner's. Charge a skill or a feat tax to improve some evolutions instead of evolution points. Improved Flight improves the manueveribility of a Eidolon by one step. Or Improved Speed increases one movement by 10'. Then decrease the evolution points/ level.
Instead of beating on the Summoner.
you do not compare a dead eldion with a dead pc, but a dead pet. It is just the same as if the druid's pet dies. Except, the druid is not built around his pet as much
Let's strip the Eidoleon out of the Summoner for a moment. What's left?1) Bard-like casting ability, with a superior spell-list.
2) Summon Monster SLA.
3) Light Armor/Medium HP.
Unfortunately, this is no way possible to be correct. After playing many druid summoners in Living Greyhawk and other summoners in other campaigns. Even during the first play tests mods when i played a Bard out of just the 3.5 core books!
1) The 3.5 bard i had was 10x more poweful when it came to casting ability than what the summoner has. The bard has better buffing, and still has more offensive spells than a summoner. and that was just with the 3.5 core books, before all the available things now in the Pathfinder books, including the amazing changes the Bard has now.
Just looking at the spell casting I have to disagree, the summoner has a great selection of spells, many of which it gets early entry to. Black tentacles, haste, glitterdust, fly, grease... almost all the conjurer staple spells are there. Summoner has a great spell list, I'm not going to say it's better or worse than the bards, totally different focus. Definitely NOT 10x less powerful than the bard.
2) The Summon Monster SLA is no different than any other class in the game at this point. With the current limitations of it, it has become nothing special at all. Only difference is you can only have 1 SLA in at a time, yes you can cast Summons as well from spells, But so can every other class with summons available. Big deal.
Umm... 1+ extra casting of a spell of your highest level every encounter is very nice. If it's duration runs out or gets killed you can re-cast it. This is equivalent to the highest level spell any caster equal to your level gets and they can use it 7-8+ times/ day, yeah that is a pretty big deal. In the early encounters when the other casters are wondering if they should burn their highest level abilities you can shoot this off. When everyone has burned out their spells for the day you still have a nice high level trump card.
If you strip away the Eidolon, you have nothing left anymore with the current changes. Except a severely weakened party buffer. It is unfortunate it had to come to this due to hypothetical situations that were unrealistic to begin with. The Eidolon is the class now, the summoner has been left with very little if anything for an adventuring class.
If you strip the Eidolon the summoner is a mediocre to weak caster but hardly a helpless kitten. I would say comparable to druid if you stripped it's AC and wildshape.
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If a party of a Barbarian, Summoner with combat orientated eidolon, Cleric, and Rogue clash with a roving band of orc raiders, I would expect to see the eidolon up there on the front lines, fighting the orcs, alongside the Barbarian - but not the actual Summoner engaging in melee.
Two words(one Feat): Mounted Combat
I think comparing the Summoner to the Bard is disingenuous. The Bard class is not supposed to be a wrecking machine. It fills a specific role that many people enjoy playing without being a damage dealer. If the campaign you run is all combat and has no roleplaying then you may want to discourage players from playing a bard. I have plenty of friends that primarily play Bards and they have a blast playing and contributing even though they do little damaging during fights.
Dungeons and Dragons is not World of Warcraft and all classes are not supposed to be created equal. My Ediolon can kill your Barbarians. So what 1 wizard spell can kill your Barbarian too.
I don't think this class warfare helps pathfinder. It stifles creativity and will make new class like comparing 1% milk to 2% milk...Boring
and its offensive spells are far far better, maybe i exaggerate with 10x, but its by no small margin that we're talking here.
Baleful polymorph says "hi".
And what do mass invisibility, teleport, contact other plane, overland flight, plane shift, dominate monster, and antipathy/sympathy say? Those are all spells Bards don't get. BTW, Summoners do get charm monster.
Just looking at the spell casting I have to disagree, the summoner has a great selection of spells, many of which it gets early entry to. Black tentacles, haste, glitterdust, fly, grease... almost all the conjurer staple spells are there. Summoner has a great spell list, I'm not going to say it's better or worse than the bards, totally different focus. Definitely NOT 10x less powerful than the bard.You lose so many awesome spells, Disguise Self, Lesser Confusion, Suggestion, Charm Monster / Person, Mass suggestion, Glibness. Just to name a few. I'm sorry, but for buffing the bard is 10x better, and its offensive spells are far far better, maybe i exaggerate with 10x, but its by no small margin that we're talking here. Even the druid has better offensive spells.
The bard spell list does have a few interesting debuff spells, but the most important thing that it really lacks is a diversity. Pretty much every offensive spell a bard gets is a [Mind Affecting] Enchantment, the ones that arn't such as grease, glitterdust and slow the summoner likewise gets (Slow a whole spell level early). Beyond this the summoner has spells like black tentacles and wall of fire/ice for battlefield control and baleful polymorph if you want to get away from save-or-lose spells targeting Will.
As far as the bard's capacity to buff is concurned, its spell list isn't that much better than a summoner's at this. A summoner can enlarge person, haste (a spell level earlier than bard's again), mass bear's endurance and the like(again before bards). The main advantage a bard's list has over the summoner one is basically just in its access to utility spells like scrying, animal messenger, find the path etc but even then the summoner still has the teleport spells and utility really isn't the strength of a spontaneous mid-progression caster.
But in response to the main theme of the thread I think people really need to take a step back and think about what they're saying. People want the summoner to be the focus but really not being the focus of the action is inextricably linked to the fact you're a summoner in the first place, in fact you probably don't WANT to be the focus. The entire purpose of you class is to bring in other creatures to do your work for you, whether they be summoned from spells/SLA or the eidolon itself. So really you're never going to be the 'star' it's just the nature of the beast. (I'm sure if someone really wanted they could make a high str combat focused summoner who buffs himself to rough it up with his pet, but that's slowly making it's way thematically away from a true summoner)
And finally I think it's important to consider that whenever you 'weaken' the eidolon you're effectively making the summoner a LESS capable summoner, in spite of any buffs you may apply to his SLA. The eidolon is just that, it's summon brought about by your will. There have been a lot of claims the summoner isn't the best at what he does but until another class is capable of summoning as powerful and instinctively loyal creature as the eidolon, I think it's pretty obvious the summoner is #1 in his field.
I removed a few rather childish posts. Please be nice to one another.
The point of the Eidolon is to be the offensive arm of the Summoner. Alone the summoner has little to no offensive spells, access to only simple weapon proficiency, and medium BAB. Compared to many of the other classes (Sorceror, Cavalier, Oracle, etc, etc) they have little opportunity to modify themselves in any way, except through their Eidolon. The Eidolon is their sole focus and where the Summoner can customize their role in a party.
I have seen no problem with it in my game, despite the fact the player using one is 6th level, and the Eidolon has:
Biped Base
All Armor Prof. - 2 points
All Weapons Prof. - 2 points
Large - 3 points
Reach (Armed Attack)- 1 point
Improved Nat. Armor - 1 points
31 AC (+1 Full Plate (10 AC), +10 Natural Armor, +1 Dex)
15 ft reach with +1 Spell Storing Greatsword ([Power Attack'd, Shocking Grasp Store'd]+12/+7 3d6+19+5d6 Electricity (Avg 47 damage))
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes
While powerful, I tend to have the more clever NPCs target the one who is giving this juggernaut of melee orders with ranged attacks and spells, since he is much weaker than the Eidolon, but not too much, since he gave himself 18 Dex and wears +1 mithril chain (19 AC.) Since he usually spends his rounds infusing his Eidolon's Greatsword with Shocking Grasp from a wand (Use Magic Device), his offensive abilities are dismal, his only weapon being the wand and a crossbow.
The main balance correction I can see would be to make the Summoner himself frailer, but that would make it a requirement to make your Eidolon a combat tank just to protect him. This would ruin the class. So the way I see it they should just make Armor and Weapon Proficiencies cost a little more because that's the main advantage the Eidolon has, being able to wear full plate AND have a massive natural armor. Perhaps being able to wear armor could mean that they lose some natural armor to allow armor and barding to properly fit, or have a rule that armor for an Eidolon cost double the base price and masterwork cost due to the Eidolon's unusual anatomy? That would make full plate for your Eidolon become very, very pricy.
Without the armor and weapons, the Eidolon is actually just a really great customizable monster that is similar in power to a druid's animal companion.
The point of the Eidolon is to be the offensive arm of the Summoner. Alone the summoner has little to no offensive spells, access to only simple weapon proficiency, and medium BAB. Compared to many of the other classes (Sorceror, Cavalier, Oracle, etc, etc) they have little opportunity to modify themselves in any way, except through their Eidolon. The Eidolon is their sole focus and where the Summoner can customize their role in a party.
I have seen no problem with it in my game, despite the fact the player using one is 6th level, and the Eidolon has:
Biped Base
All Armor Prof. - 2 points
All Weapons Prof. - 2 points
Large - 3 points
Reach (Armed Attack)- 1 point
Improved Nat. Armor - 1 points31 AC (+1 Full Plate (10 AC), +10 Natural Armor, +1 Dex)
15 ft reach with +1 Spell Storing Greatsword ([Power Attack'd, Shocking Grasp Store'd]+12/+7 3d6+19+5d6 Electricity (Avg 47 damage))
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Combat ReflexesWhile powerful, I tend to have the more clever NPCs target the one who is giving this juggernaut of melee orders with ranged attacks and spells, since he is much weaker than the Eidolon, but not too much, since he gave himself 18 Dex and wears +1 mithril chain (19 AC.) Since he usually spends his rounds infusing his Eidolon's Greatsword with Shocking Grasp from a wand (Use Magic Device), his offensive abilities are dismal, his only weapon being the wand and a crossbow.
The main balance correction I can see would be to make the Summoner himself frailer, but that would make it a requirement to make your Eidolon a combat tank just to protect him. This would ruin the class. So the way I see it they should just make Armor and Weapon Proficiencies cost a little more because that's the main advantage the Eidolon has, being able to wear full plate AND have a massive natural armor. Perhaps being able to wear armor could mean that they lose some natural armor to allow armor and barding to properly fit, or have a rule that armor for an Eidolon cost double the base price...
They took away the ability of the Eidolon to wear armor see the UPDATE
also
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a
mental link that allows for communication across any
distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This
communication is a free action, allowing the summoner
to give orders to his eidolon at any time.
so he doesn't have to give the Eidolon verbal commands.
The main problem I see is that with most of the power coming from the Eidolon, the player character becomes detached from his actual character emotionally. The summoner is the Eidolon maintenance dude, and the Eidolon itself is a silent and emotionless fighting machine. I play a Transmutation School Wizard in one game I am in who focuses on the Assault Mage style (Buffs, then charges into melee), and while the Eidolon can theoretically become a better melee combatant than my wizard without buffs while still having the casting capabilities of the Wizard to buff while it fights (making it a superior build), I still see myself much more attached to the Wizard who takes care of his own s++~ and draws that power from himself.
I think that perhaps the Eidolon should be brought down a tad by removing its armor training (done) and also increases the costs for some of it's abilities (like reach, improved damage.) That way it is still an excellent protective shield for the Summoner while not being so damn strong from the get go. The way I see it the main advantage is that the Eidolon can fight while the Summoner has its own hands free to buff it up. So for the Eidolon to get up to the level of, say, a Barbarian in a group, the game balance should count on the Summoner using his rounds and spells to buff up the Eidolon. That would be ideal, in my opinion. Then if the Eidolon fails and dies for the day, the Summoner still has those summon monster spells he could drop to slightly make up for his lost monster.
Just my opinions on the matter as a long time player and DM.
If the eidolon can be as good as a barbarian, then we have a major problem. Because the eidolon gets a free "tier 4" buffing machine to back him up, and the barbarian does not.
That's a balance issue. That is not a "party dynamic" issue.
the Eidolon itself is a silent and emotionless fighting machine.
...
What?!
Good heavens, whoever gave you that idea?
So, what is it about splitting these abilities across a 'main' character AND a disposable 'summoned' character both played by the same player that somehow makes it "OK?"
A druid can already do all of those things and all in the same round -- and this is AFTER the druid nerfs and people (not me, mind!) claim that the druid isn't even worth playing now.
Yea, the summoner on his own isn't too shabby. The summoning SLAs are completely awesome.
With a minute of buffing a high-level summoner could effortlessly have a menagerie of 10+ CR14 creatures at his back, all of whom are sticking around for 15-20 minutes. With a good charisma you're looking at more like 15 (up to 19); that mob has a collective CR of over 21 and will probably be around for long enough to just beat the dungeon for you, eidolon or no.
It sounds like I'm exagerating, but I'm really not; a minute-or-two summoning session at that level is trivial. There's a reason summoning spells are normally so short lived- it's so that you have to pay actual rounds in combat (or employ some tight ambush strategies) to have more than one on the field.
I LOVE the idea of long-lasting summons, and the fact that he can get them for free while still having slots for buffing. I love the eidolon, the fact that you can build him as you go, the fact that he's actually better than you are. I love everything about this class, but it's just way, way too much. You could play him non-gestalt in a gestalt game and still come out ahead.
(Edit; the summon thing has been updated, such that you can only have one creature at a time AND it isn't any better than a normal summoning spell. Sorry about that, I just got in here).
So, what is it about splitting these abilities across a 'main' character AND a disposable 'summoned' character both played by the same player that somehow makes it "OK?"A druid can already do all of those things and all in the same round -- and this is AFTER the druid nerfs and people (not me, mind!) claim that the druid isn't even worth playing now.
People keep overlooking that it seems
The more I read about the Eidolon/Summoner issues, the more I think that some of this could be resolved by a dying Eidolon having a *much* nastier effect on the Summoner.
If your party tank dies, you roll up a new character or drop 5,000 gold on him.
If an Eidolon dies, I think it would be fair to drop the Summoner to -1HP, dying. In addition, I think the resummoning of a dead Eidolon becomes something a lot more inline with the cost of a Raise Dead spell, and not just 'recast' or 'take a nap and recast'. Perhaps the Summoner needs a focus of some sort, a physical item to summon and control the Eidolon, and a dead Eidolon destroys said focus. You can't summon a new Eidolon until you get a new one, and that requires an expenditure of some amount of gold and time.
Now, the Eidolon becomes something that you *don't* just throw around willy-nilly, because you can get him back in a little while. I think that alone would limit some of the inherent silliness in the Pocket Barbarian concept.
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If an Eidolon dies, I think it would be fair to drop the Summoner to -1HP, dying. In addition, I think the resummoning of a dead Eidolon becomes something a lot more inline with the cost of a Raise Dead spell, and not just 'recast' or 'take a nap and recast'. Perhaps the Summoner needs a focus of some sort, a physical item to summon and control the Eidolon, and a dead Eidolon destroys said focus. You can't summon a new Eidolon until you get a new one, and that requires an expenditure of some amount of gold and time.
Now, the Eidolon becomes something that you *don't* just throw around willy-nilly, because you can get him back in a little while. I think that alone would limit some of the inherent silliness in the Pocket Barbarian concept.
I like the idea of having a worse effect if the Eidolon dies.
But I do have a few issues with the rest of the post.
1) "Take a nap and recast" isn't possible when summoning the Eidolon. Sure, if it didn't die yesterday, you can call it back. But you only get your spells back if you "take a nap." You do not regain the ability to summon the Eidolon.
2) Conjurer's don't need focuses for the permanent summons, neither should Summoners.
3) Keeping a melee combatant out of melee? Unless you give it a bow, I think the party going to be a little mad when the fighter died because you wouldn't send your Eidolon in to flank.
I would rather play as an Eidolon than a fighter, barbarian, monk, or rogue. The Eidolon can quickly eclipse any of those characters in survivability and damage output or skills in regards to the rogue..
Forget about the summoner let me play an Eidolon!
I would rather play as an Eidolon than a fighter, barbarian, monk, or rogue. The Eidolon can quickly eclipse any of those characters in survivability and damage output or skills in regards to the rogue..
Forget about the summoner let me play an Eidolon!
I dont think it can replace a rogue in a campaign where rogues matter.
I dont think it can replace a rogue in a campaign where rogues matter.I would rather play as an Eidolon than a fighter, barbarian, monk, or rogue. The Eidolon can quickly eclipse any of those characters in survivability and damage output or skills in regards to the rogue..
Forget about the summoner let me play an Eidolon!
By level 4 I can have a +15 in 6 skills then spend the rest of my points min maxing his damage. How many level 4 rogues have a +15 in 6 skills?
The more I read about the Eidolon/Summoner issues, the more I think that some of this could be resolved by a dying Eidolon having a *much* nastier effect on the Summoner.
If your party tank dies, you roll up a new character or drop 5,000 gold on him.
The summoner "pays" the same cost a druid does when his pet dies. 24 hours before ya get a new one.
I do not understand why folks have such an issue with this but do not bat an eye at the druids pet, heck the druid can pick a new one or get a "clone" of the old one if they want Jeff 2...who has the same stats as Jeff 1 did
It is the same thing as the druid