Methanos,
I ran the shackled city campaign to completion with 6 players and the same problem on several occassions, and am preping to run CotCT for 6 experienced players as well and am worried about the same problems you are encountering. Here are my suggestions.
1) Understand that some encounters are supposed to be easy, for example The Fishery is really just a short introduction scene to get the party together it is supposed to be easy, since the plot line ends with Gared Lamm's death. The AP really starts when the PC's exit the fishery. That said it shouldnt be to easy. My recommendation for most all of the encounters is just give the opponents max hp. This keeps them in the fight a round or two more and makes the party use up a few extra resources.
2) My game will be PFRPG rules with only the core book in effect. If you are running 3.0/3.5 or allowing that editions splat books in your game you may have problems. Overall alot of that stuff is seriously unbalanced for a published campaign. I am a splat book nazi, allowing only core stuff and for PFRPG only offical stuff makes life easier for everyone, and keeps the game balanced.
3) Dont add extra treasure this keeps the 6 player party a little poorer and this helps, also try not to add extra monsters as this increases xp awards, if the party is one level behind the recommendation that's ok there are 6 of them.
These are my suggestions good luck!!
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And don't forget that a PF character is essentially +1 CR higher than the equivalent 3.5E character. So when you calculate the XP for an encounter, treat the opponents as 1 CR less than the module states.
I like my games to feel "heroic" so I give huge point-buys, but everything else is pure PF Core for the players. I've been periodically recreating the encounters to be PF, but it's a long enough process that I don't do it for all of them.
I do have a couple of "problem PCs". One is a Bbn/Mnk/Sor/DragDisc that fortunately only has a +5 BAB so far. But with his outrageous Str (total of 30 under the right circumstances!) he's a grappling nightmare. I need to come up with a couple of builds that will reduce his effectiveness slightly. Perhaps some kind of monk build or a cleric with freedom of movement? ...
I typically add more hit points to the creatures and make sure their spells and magic items make sense for their build. There were some easy encounters early on but the roleplaying and setting I built kept their interest. One thing I did was make the Otygh's tougher and scarier by adding a HD and extra HP's, it made for some fun encounters.
At their current levels there are quite a few greater dispels around as well. This usually makes the battles more challenging. Once you get to skeletons of scarwall the creatures are plenty tough, and with extra hit points and better spells they usually give them a run for their money.
I have a 5 player group, all experienced and fairly skilled at min maxing with two who like to utilize splat books so the encounters can be difficult to keep them challenged. Typically I'll use the fast rules in the back of the bestiary(+2 on all rolls including damage rolls and special ability damage DCs, +4 to AC and CMD +2/HD) this tends to equalize things for the average encounter. For creatures your expected to encounter many of (Such as the red mantis, or the gargoyles of scarwall for example) I write up a special member, slightly higher level but with about the same gear and mix it up. this way there is a bit more challenge, but they are not getting treasure they are not supposed to. Makes for a bit more work, but typically only 3-4 monsters per book do I have to redesign or restat. Most are fine with the "fast rules", which i was pleased to see, since I'd been doing something like that BEFORE it was made official :)
Don't forget the benefit of magic items that are consumable. potions of barkskin, scrolls of mage armor instead of letting them get a hold of the wizards spell book, potions of firebreath or haste instead of boots of speed, etc. If you use a wand for a baddie that you don't want your players to get a hold of let the bad guy come in with only a few charges and use them in combat.
Don't forget that there are many enemies that through the books observe the PCs and their tactics and are prepared for them. Those should definitely have their gear or spells prepared altered slightly as appropriate.
It doesn't help that the adventure was NOT designed with the abilities granted in pathfinder, for example one of my most maddening times is when the illusionist automatically blinds his targets for a round just by hitting them with a ranged touch, which makes it childs play for the rest of the group to take apart the group one by one. Great team work yes, but makes extra work for the DM :)
Also, its easy to forget (and i've definitely been guilty of it) that its not players VS DM, we all want the players to win. Its often a difficult stuggle in making them work for it, and actually plotting their demise.
The only thing I can add to the already excellent advise others have given is to ensure you use all the same books your players do. So for spellcasters make sure you pick spells from the other books.
Have a good look through the tactics in the adventure and change things that don't look all that great.
Add extra monsters to encounters.
Don't forget that many of the enemies in the adventure are connected and "heroes" will be noticed, spied on and the PC's tactics will be known and countered by "connected" villans.
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My party is five 9th level PCs using PF Final rules and a high point-buy. History of Ashes is supposed to be for 10th level PCs, but that's by 3.5E reckoning, so I figure I'm fine.
The Cindermaw almost killed two PCs.
I just ran a random encounter with 2 bonestorms and just about wiped the party. :-/ The statblock in the back of the book says CR8 but the random encounter table says EL11?! These are supposed to be 3.5E creatures, so a CR7 is supposed to be correct when converted to PF but there's no way that's right.
I will probably calculate XP based on PF CR of 8. I buffed the bonestorms with max hp-2 per level, just like the PCs get but they were otherwise stock.
I've ran RHoD recently for my group, and now RotRL, and probably CotCT next, my group are fairly experienced playing 3.5ed, if they get a drop on an enemy, they can usually succeed with minimal resource use. If they don't get the drop, they tend to burn the resources fairly quick.
They had 6 characters in RHoD, and the tip I used was to simply add the odd extra mook to each fight but not change the overall EL. Any non-mook got an extra hp per HD. It kept things quick and simple to update without slowing the game down. When the group had a few close calls, I'd run a few encounters without the extra mooks again. This worked pretty well.
They got 5 characters in RotRL, and I'm running this a little more as written, but giving all enemies an extra hp per HD again. If the group seems to be having an easy time of it, I'll add extra mooks again. All the time, leaving the EL unchanged. I'll probably run CotCT the same way...
The point is that you know your group, if they are chomping their way through the campaign at a breeze, then make it harder for them, more enemies, toughen them up, don't up the rewards though. They'll probably still find it easy for a bit, but it should even out.
Still, if your group likes blazing their way through the campaign, and are enjoying it, then at least you're making it fun for them. Still might not be fun for you tho...
My CotCT campaign really starts this Tuesday, and I am already a bit worried about the encounters not being challenging enough later on. The rules were 3.5 and I got five players, including a wizard and sorceror ( and am trying to sway one player from fighter to paladin, due to healing concerns ). I also allowed 20 point buy.
I am buffing up encounters left and right and re-writing the NPCs and monsters to account for 5 more build-points and PFRPG rules, so I hope I will be fine. We'll see. :)
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I see there are more eople with simmilar problems :)
my group is now in History of Ashes with between 5 and 6 PCs.
they are 8th and 9th level and the biggest 'problems' are a wizard who does major buffing before each fight (has Int 27) with lost of stoneskins, haste and such.
The second is the Paladin with a griphon mount and a ridiculously high scores when using smite evil
then goes a really well buffed halfling fighter 8with many many attacks and huge dmg)
fourth is sorcerer/dragon disciple.
the cleric of sheylin and the barbarian are more or less standard :)
last night we played cindermaw encounter with only wizard, paladin and ranger. I smashed them with full, PFRPGed worm and really let him lay punishment (they got a bit worried) - but then the wizard cast slow and afterwards a succesful magic jar and that was that!
It turned out well because it took wizard some time to remember that he has that spel put if he'd thought of it earlier, the encounter would've been very underwhelming (for me at least)
I hope the totem task will be more of a challenge because they won't be able to rely that much on magic and for the last big fight I am not sure what to do.
easiest would be to just crank up monster hp and add a few more red Mantises or something.. darn that stoneskin!
Biggest worry is that they will breeze trough Skeletons of Scarwall.
I don't want to kill them but putting a bit of fear into them is a good thing, imho.
Biggest worry is that they will breeze trough Skeletons of Scarwall.
I don't want to kill them but putting a bit of fear into them is a good thing, imho.
Shadowcat,
I cant imagine any party breezing through scarwall, it is very difficult I spent an entire weekend converting to PFRPG and when I finished the only thing I could think of was TPK.
I'm running Scarwall right now, 5 players level 11/12, using PFRPG. They chewed through most of the encounters, but there have been a few that were touch-and-go (just the way I like it).
Parties buffing themselves can make fights a lot easier, but remember in Scarwall once the first spirit anchor goes down, most of the remaining denizens are alerted that intruders are present. Not many of those denizens have lots of buffs, but they can prepare in other ways if they want - the PCs certainly shouldn't get surprise rounds.
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Regarding GM tactics for Scarwall...
I'm considering closing their BoH and their haversacks due to the continual dimensional anchor effect (see the thread I started in the Rules forum about this). That would really slow them down as they would have to carry everything on their person...
I can't wait for them to get to the lich!
And they've been spending their time sleeping away from the castle. That allowed Belshallam to regain hit points twice (!). He's been a major PITA for them. I converted him to PF and gave him the Recover Breath feat from the Draconomicon and during 8 rounds he used his breath 4 times! Twice with negative energy and twice with Str damage. The ability damage is what truly scared them!
And the danse macabre had them soiling their underwear with the Con drain (not DAMAGE but DRAIN). They don't know that it rises again in 1d4 days either. ;) Fortunately for them, it can't leave that room. (I need to find some way to lure them back there... Maybe the dragon can chase them back in that direction and they'll think the spirit in the room is gone! Muhahahaha!)
My group start the castle at 10th level. That's two levels lower than where a 3.5E group should start, so I figure they're only 1 level short. And there are 5 PCs (with one of them a paladin) and a cleric cohort who's two levels below the party so I didn't think it was too bad. To be honest, this group hasn't been seriously challenged during the campaign so I was looking forward to Scarwall.
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guys, you give me hope :D
sometimes I feel like players are way too comfortable and carefree and I think more fear will give the game more exitement and challenge. It was nice to see the paladin and the ranger worried for a change.
next in line, the wizard :D
We are playing twice a week now and I think on next wednesday we will wrap up A History of Ashes.
I so can't wait for Scarwall (btw, has anyone PFRPGed the creatures there?)
guys, you give me hope :D
sometimes I feel like players are way too comfortable and carefree and I think more fear will give the game more exitement and challenge. It was nice to see the paladin and the ranger worried for a change.
next in line, the wizard :DWe are playing twice a week now and I think on next wednesday we will wrap up A History of Ashes.
I so can't wait for Scarwall (btw, has anyone PFRPGed the creatures there?)
My PCs were too smart for their own good regarding the Danse Macabre. The wizard stealthed his way around the perimeter of the room scanning with Detect Magic. The Danse Macabre waits for all of them to enter before attacking, but they ended up just leaving. I figured the hidden treasure beneath the floorboards would put too much wood between the wizard and the treasure for it to show up on Detect Magic from the edge of the room.
My party will fight Nihil next session. It should be a good fight - the two barbed devils did some serious damage to the party, while the imps with suggestion slowed the fight down. I don't even think they suspect imps, so that might really screw them up when Nihil comes out to play.
guys, you give me hope :D
sometimes I feel like players are way too comfortable and carefree and I think more fear will give the game more exitement and challenge. It was nice to see the paladin and the ranger worried for a change.
next in line, the wizard :D** spoiler omitted **
We are playing twice a week now and I think on next wednesday we will wrap up A History of Ashes.
I so can't wait for Scarwall (btw, has anyone PFRPGed the creatures there?)
Also, I have Pathfinderized most of the enemies from Scarwall. I can send you an OpenOffice.org document if you like. email me: (pathfinder at nekocode dot org).
Also, I have Pathfinderized most of the enemies from Scarwall. I can send you an OpenOffice.org document if you like. email me: (pathfinder at nekocode dot org).guys, you give me hope :D
sometimes I feel like players are way too comfortable and carefree and I think more fear will give the game more exitement and challenge. It was nice to see the paladin and the ranger worried for a change.
next in line, the wizard :D** spoiler omitted **
We are playing twice a week now and I think on next wednesday we will wrap up A History of Ashes.
I so can't wait for Scarwall (btw, has anyone PFRPGed the creatures there?)
Ooh! Can I have one too?!
E-mailed you, too. :p
That would save me at least half a day of re-working the stats. :)
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Also, I have Pathfinderized most of the enemies from Scarwall. I can send you an OpenOffice.org document if you like. email me: (pathfinder at nekocode dot org).guys, you give me hope :D
sometimes I feel like players are way too comfortable and carefree and I think more fear will give the game more exitement and challenge. It was nice to see the paladin and the ranger worried for a change.
next in line, the wizard :D** spoiler omitted **
We are playing twice a week now and I think on next wednesday we will wrap up A History of Ashes.
I so can't wait for Scarwall (btw, has anyone PFRPGed the creatures there?)
Have you considered submitting your updates to d20PFSRD.com? Rather than e-mailing them all about?
I use that website pretty regularly when preparing for games, and having updated stats for CotCT would be most useful. They've already got some there, but it'll always be good to see more.
Also, I have Pathfinderized most of the enemies from Scarwall. I can send you an OpenOffice.org document if you like. email me: (pathfinder at nekocode dot org).guys, you give me hope :D
sometimes I feel like players are way too comfortable and carefree and I think more fear will give the game more exitement and challenge. It was nice to see the paladin and the ranger worried for a change.
next in line, the wizard :D** spoiler omitted **
We are playing twice a week now and I think on next wednesday we will wrap up A History of Ashes.
I so can't wait for Scarwall (btw, has anyone PFRPGed the creatures there?)Have you considered submitting your updates to d20PFSRD.com? Rather than e-mailing them all about?
I use that website pretty regularly when preparing for games, and having updated stats for CotCT would be most useful. They've already got some there, but it'll always be good to see more.
Good idea. I've got all of #7 and #8 converted over already, and I may as well post it up!
Anyone is welcome to post my conversions to d20pfsrd, assuming that's kosher (which I guess it is, if there are conversions already up there). I'm not really interested in re-typing all the info into web forms though.
Also, my conversions are only 95% sort of conversions - I often left out stuff that I didn't think I'd need. I eyeballed a lot of stuff like skills, so those won't add up, for example.