Start off as a Wizard, take the improved familiar feat, now multiclass into Witch. What happens to the familiar?
Start off as a Wizard, take the improved familiar feat, now multiclass into Witch. What happens to the familiar?
I wonder, since the Witch familiar is supposed to be an unnatural source animal that needs to be communed with to maintain Witch spells, then it would need to be a separate familiar (at least story wise).
It could be considered that you would have two familiars, but that would be a very confusing situation. You'd end up a caster cat-lady in the end.
However, if the Witch familiar was more of a spirit in a specific animal body, and that animal was also an animal type on the Wizard familiar list, perhaps the original familiar is possessed by the spirit of this unnatural source.
But what if, let's say the Wizard had a cat and his Witch class were to have a bat...would you basically play God and combine the animals? Such as a smaller cat with bat wings or something of the sort? Or would it be a single animal that can transform into one of the two forms and this is determined once a day?
This will likely have to be determined as a House Rule by your DM for now.
I'd suspect that if you multi-classed it would be far more simple if you could only have one familiar and choose between the witch or wizard familiar and they would act as your familiar for both classes. Essentially you get to choose the animal/animal stats you want more. then you commune with whatever animal you chose. But this could be abused as basically a "I'll take a level in wizard for a new pet since I am tired of cleaning the liter box."
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Start off as a Wizard, take the improved familiar feat, now multiclass into Witch. What happens to the familiar?I wonder, since the Witch familiar is supposed to be an unnatural source animal that needs to be communed with to maintain Witch spells, then it would need to be a separate familiar (at least story wise).
It could be considered that you would have two familiars, but that would be a very confusing situation. You'd end up a caster cat-lady in the end.
However, if the Witch familiar was more of a spirit in a specific animal body, and that animal was also an animal type on the Wizard familiar list, perhaps the original familiar is possessed by the spirit of this unnatural source.
But what if, let's say the Wizard had a cat and his Witch class were to have a bat...would you basically play God and combine the animals? Such as a smaller cat with bat wings or something of the sort? Or would it be a single animal that can transform into one of the two forms and this is determined once a day?
This will likely have to be determined as a House Rule by your DM for now.
I'd suspect that if you multi-classed it would be far more simple if you could only have one familiar and choose between the witch or wizard familiar and they would act as your familiar for both classes. Essentially you get to choose the animal/animal stats you want more. then you commune with whatever animal you chose. But this could be abused as basically a "I'll take a level in wizard for a new pet since I am tired of cleaning the liter box."
I thought you just combined your total "familiar having class levels" for determining what powers your familiar has. Other then the "its your spell book" part the familiars are more or less the same.
I thought you just combined your total "familiar having class levels" for determining what powers your familiar has. Other then the "its your spell book" part the familiars are more or less the same.
I'm going to be lazy and not look this up since I'm not sure off the top of my head what the abilities are.
Let's say you start as a wizard with a cat who gives you a +2 to your perception. Then you get a level in witch and could a goat and they give you a +1 to your AC. Now having both a +2 to perception and a +1 to your AC would be rather over powered. So you really should only have one. But that's just a passive ability to start.
Then as you both gain levels more abilities are added. Witch familiars open up different spells depending on the animal you choose. And they generally get better every few levels.
But each animal type has special abilities you can use and choose from. This multi-classing issue with possible multiple familiar could get really confusing and OP very easily. I think that's the issue we're trying to address?
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I thought you just combined your total "familiar having class levels" for determining what powers your familiar has. Other then the "its your spell book" part the familiars are more or less the same.I'm going to be lazy and not look this up since I'm not sure off the top of my head what the abilities are.
Let's say you start as a wizard with a cat who gives you a +2 to your perception. Then you get a level in witch and could a goat and they give you a +1 to your AC. Now having both a +2 to perception and a +1 to your AC would be rather over powered. So you really should only have one. But that's just a passive ability to start.
Then as you both gain levels more abilities are added. Witch familiars open up different spells depending on the animal you choose. And they generally get better every few levels.
But each animal type has special abilities you can use and choose from. This multi-classing issue with possible multiple familiar could get really confusing and OP very easily. I think that's the issue we're trying to address?
I think you just get one familiar, if you were a wizard with a cat you are now a wizard 1/witch 1 with a cat with 2 hd. When you get to level 1 wizard/level 2 witch. YOu have a cat with 3 hd, a bonus l1 spell and can deliver touch spells (since your combined level is now in the 3-4 bracket.)
I thought you just combined your total "familiar having class levels" for determining what powers your familiar has. Other then the "its your spell book" part the familiars are more or less the same.I'm going to be lazy and not look this up since I'm not sure off the top of my head what the abilities are.
Let's say you start as a wizard with a cat who gives you a +2 to your perception. Then you get a level in witch and could a goat and they give you a +1 to your AC. Now having both a +2 to perception and a +1 to your AC would be rather over powered. So you really should only have one. But that's just a passive ability to start.
Then as you both gain levels more abilities are added. Witch familiars open up different spells depending on the animal you choose. And they generally get better every few levels.
But each animal type has special abilities you can use and choose from. This multi-classing issue with possible multiple familiar could get really confusing and OP very easily. I think that's the issue we're trying to address?
I think you just get one familiar, if you were a wizard with a cat you are now a wizard 1/witch 1 with a cat with 2 hd. When you get to level 1 wizard/level 2 witch. YOu have a cat with 3 hd, a bonus l1 spell and can deliver touch spells (since your combined level is now in the 3-4 bracket.)
I don't know, I think the issue is that we don't know how this is supposed to be worked out. Especially since wizard and witch don't have the same familiar list. But in time, maybe there will be a write up on how to make this work.
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I don't know, I think the issue is that we don't know how this is supposed to be worked out. Especially since wizard and witch don't have the same familiar list. But in time, maybe there will be a write up on how to make this work.I thought you just combined your total "familiar having class levels" for determining what powers your familiar has. Other then the "its your spell book" part the familiars are more or less the same.I'm going to be lazy and not look this up since I'm not sure off the top of my head what the abilities are.
Let's say you start as a wizard with a cat who gives you a +2 to your perception. Then you get a level in witch and could a goat and they give you a +1 to your AC. Now having both a +2 to perception and a +1 to your AC would be rather over powered. So you really should only have one. But that's just a passive ability to start.
Then as you both gain levels more abilities are added. Witch familiars open up different spells depending on the animal you choose. And they generally get better every few levels.
But each animal type has special abilities you can use and choose from. This multi-classing issue with possible multiple familiar could get really confusing and OP very easily. I think that's the issue we're trying to address?
I think you just get one familiar, if you were a wizard with a cat you are now a wizard 1/witch 1 with a cat with 2 hd. When you get to level 1 wizard/level 2 witch. YOu have a cat with 3 hd, a bonus l1 spell and can deliver touch spells (since your combined level is now in the 3-4 bracket.)
I think that was just as a hint to what is going to be in the Bestiary 2.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I think that was just as a hint to what is going to be in the Bestiary 2.
But what about Weasels and Monkeys and Hawks? Those are on the Wizard's list, but not on the Witch's.
I'd say for now, either swap out the Wizard option for one of the Witch ones, or keep your familiar as is and try and find a bonus spell list from the Familiar Bonus Spells box that kind of fits your animal.
As for Improved Familiar, well, we'll have to see.
But what about Weasels and Monkeys and Hawks? Those are on the Wizard's list, but not on the Witch's.
Yeah, I kind of missed those basic ones (Weasel, Monkeys, Hawks).
Hopefully we'll see them in the final product (it's not like they're needed to playtest the class), but ideally the Improved Familiars would get Spell Lists written up for them as well, and maybe even some more unique Witch-only Familiars that are enabled by the Improved Familiar Feat. (Demonic Monkeys with Wings? ;-))The Imp-Familiars not granting a skill/save bonus is fine enough trade off for their other benefits for a Wiz/Sorceror, but getting 2/3 the free spells known if they didn't have their own spell list would be brutal.
Actually, in the debate over witch familiars dying and losing your investment in acquired spells, has everybody overlooked a BENEFIT: If your familiar dies with all your spells, shouldn't you get to choose ALL the "free" spells anew when you gain a replacement familiar, if it doesn't have any connection to the old one?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Yeah, I kind of missed those basic ones (Weasel, Monkeys, Hawks).
Hopefully we'll see them in the final product (it's not like they're needed to playtest the class), but ideally the Improved Familiars would get Spell Lists written up for them as well, and maybe even some more unique Witch-only Familiars that are enabled by the Improved Familiar Feat. (Demonic Monkeys with Wings? ;-))
The Imp-Familiars not granting a skill/save bonus is fine enough trade off for their other benefits for a Wiz/Sorceror, but getting 2/3 the free spells known if they didn't have their own spell list would be brutal.Actually, in the debate over witch familiars dying and losing your investment in acquired spells, has everybody overlooked a BENEFIT: If your familiar dies with all your spells, shouldn't you get to choose ALL the "free" spells anew when you gain a replacement familiar, if it doesn't have any connection to the old one?
Hmm....thats an interesting thought. I thought I remembered it being spells the Witch already knew, but having checked, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Theoretically as written, you could pick completely new spells that you didn't know before.
Is there an official answer on this? I just started up a witch for Pathfinder Society, and I'd love to trade in my rat for an imp at some point. Does the imp fail to store any bonus spells for me? And theoretically, I have to teach the imp most of the spells my rat knew all over again, right?
If i am not mistaken, you can't play an evil character in Pathfinder Society.
And i don't see how a character could have an imp as a familiar without being evil...(Note that i don't have anything against evil characters personally, i am just talking about Pathfinder Society rules)
Well, Improved Familiar says you can be up to one step away from your familiar's alignment on each axis. A lawful evil imp can therefore be the familiar for a neutral character. It may not be incredibly realistic, but its consistent with the game rules, even though you can't play a strictly evil character.
Josh posted this in 2.1 FAQ's:
The Improved Familiar feat did not need to be addressed as it's in the Core Rulebook and has not been listed as a feat not legal for play from that resource. You may select familiars from that feat's familiar list provided you follow the rules for doing so. I don't have a problem with folks selecting evil-aligned familiars on that list, so long as they're within one step on the alignment chart as their familiar and so long as players aren't, for example, selecting a LE imp as an excuse to get around the no evil alignments rules in PFS. Should I hear that players are using their evil familiars to commit evil acts, I'll rethink allowing them.
Is there an official answer on this? I just started up a witch for Pathfinder Society, and I'd love to trade in my rat for an imp at some point. Does the imp fail to store any bonus spells for me? And theoretically, I have to teach the imp most of the spells my rat knew all over again, right?
I'm pretty sure Josh specifically commented in the PFS thread that Evil Familiars are allowed, though emphasizing that they gave absolutely no justification for evil character actions.
(BTW: Questions for PFS should go in the PFS thread... Weird concept, I know.)Getting ANY new familiar, whether those on the current Witch list of Bonus Spell List Familiars or not, would seem to imply re-teaching it all the spells your previous Familiar stored... And obviously, a Familiar that doesn't have a Bonus Spell List doesn't give you any Bonus Spells... Otherwise, it would be rather a waste of space to actually list those Bonus Spell Lists if you would somehow get Bonus SPells (which ones?) anyways.
This is all for the playtest, so I'm pretty certtain that we'll at least see MORE Bonus Spell Familiars, if not every current Core Familiar (Weasels! Please, Weasels! - Though given Fox's Bonus (+2 Reflex) is the same as Weasels, they probably just ARE Weasels, 're-skinned'). I'd actually be down for more Improved Familiars with Bonus Spell Lists just for the Witch... Winged Monkeys perhaps? :-) (Seriously though, I could see a Fey-flavored Improved Familiar, say, a Will-o-Wisp?)
And a mechanism to either transfer Spells Known (not Bonus Spells) between Familiars would definitely be a good idea, along with the Familiar durability/ re-incarnation issue.
I'm actually curious to use some the new Witch Familiars with a Wizard, say, a Pig.
No Bonus Spells of course, just for the flavor basically.
What would happen?
They would get the Improved Familiar, and probably pout because it doesn't have any Bonus Spells.
But those aren't necessary to function as a Familiar-cum-Spellbook for a Witch, so they'd get by OK.
Still, taking a Feat to lose 1 spell/Spell Level is rather s#&!ty.
Let's hope we see more Bonus Spell Lists in the final APG.
It'd be nice if familiars were treated as 'transcending spirits.' So that when you lost your familiar to death or took improved familiar that you'd regain lost spells and spell progression would continue as though you still had the familiar that you chose at first level.
Essentially the 'spirit' you 'bind' at first level would follow your character throughout her life. This would solve a lot of problems.
It'd be nice if familiars were treated as 'transcending spirits.' So that when you lost your familiar to death or took improved familiar that you'd regain lost spells and spell progression would continue as though you still had the familiar that you chose at first level. Essentially the 'spirit' you 'bind' at first level would follow your character throughout her life. This would solve a lot of problems.
Jess Door mentioned that in-game on Monday, and I also agree 100%. When I read the thread title, I did a double-take -- because Improved Familiar implies you want something that can fight, and intentionally sending one's spellbook into combat to be destroyed is NOT something that a high-Intelligence (or even high Wisdom!) caster would ever do.
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It'd be nice if familiars were treated as 'transcending spirits.' So that when you lost your familiar to death or took improved familiar that you'd regain lost spells and spell progression would continue as though you still had the familiar that you chose at first level.
Essentially the 'spirit' you 'bind' at first level would follow your character throughout her life. This would solve a lot of problems.
I don't know, I kind of like the flavor. I recall a book by Michael Moorcock where there was a great sorcerer in the book that could have been a useful ally but the bad guy had his cat (where he had stashed his soul). Granted, that's good for NPC's but PC's? I like the thought of being able to hold a familiar hostage and have it do more than just pop up when it's relevant or needed to deliver a touch spell. In classic literature, familiars had more of a bond than that.
I recall a book by Michael Moorcock where there was a great sorcerer in the book that could have been a useful ally but the bad guy had his cat (where he had stashed his soul).
Drinij-Bara, in "The Flame Bringers." Great story, that one.
Well,
If you think about it. Your average small animal is going to live 10-20 years than die of old age?
So your elf Witch that lives to 350 has lost their familiar ...what, about 300 years ago to old age? So you haven't had spells in 300 years? Seems kind of crazy there is no familiar replacement options in place.
Now you can say, "Well the familiar lives as long as its master, normally."
But there is no rules to support this. You are making up your own rules and some people may not like that flavor either.
Well,
If you think about it. Your average small animal is going to live 10-20 years than die of old age?
So your elf Witch that lives to 350 has lost their familiar ...what, about 300 years ago to old age? So you haven't had spells in 300 years? Seems kind of crazy there is no familiar replacement options in place.
Now you can say, "Well the familiar lives as long as its master, normally."
But there is no rules to support this. You are making up your own rules and some people may not like that flavor either.
That's another excellent point that I hadn't thought of.
Witches' Familiars really do need to be re-examined.
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Yeah, I kind of missed those basic ones (Weasel, Monkeys, Hawks).
Hopefully we'll see them in the final product (it's not like they're needed to playtest the class), but ideally the Improved Familiars would get Spell Lists written up for them as well, and maybe even some more unique Witch-only Familiars that are enabled by the Improved Familiar Feat. (Demonic Monkeys with Wings? ;-))
The Imp-Familiars not granting a skill/save bonus is fine enough trade off for their other benefits for a Wiz/Sorceror, but getting 2/3 the free spells known if they didn't have their own spell list would be brutal.Actually, in the debate over witch familiars dying and losing your investment in acquired spells, has everybody overlooked a BENEFIT: If your familiar dies with all your spells, shouldn't you get to choose ALL the "free" spells anew when you gain a replacement familiar, if it doesn't have any connection to the old one?
Hmm....thats an interesting thought. I thought I remembered it being spells the Witch already knew, but having checked, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Theoretically as written, you could pick completely new spells that you didn't know before.
I think the cost involved in re summoning the familiar far out weights the cost of buying 2 scrolls per spell level to teach your familiar new stuff.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Well,
If you think about it. Your average small animal is going to live 10-20 years than die of old age?
So your elf Witch that lives to 350 has lost their familiar ...what, about 300 years ago to old age? So you haven't had spells in 300 years? Seems kind of crazy there is no familiar replacement options in place.
Now you can say, "Well the familiar lives as long as its master, normally."
But there is no rules to support this. You are making up your own rules and some people may not like that flavor either.
Are there actually rules about animals aging in the first place?
I know, I know, common sense dictates they should, but if you have issues with making up rules, putting an age cap on animals would be doing just that.
I don't think its that unreasonable to consider familiars ageless, they are after all magical in nature (that is to say, treated as magical beasts).
I can also see taking it for flavor/rp rather than for "sending them into combat'.
My last wizard took it to get a pseudodragon.. had alot of fun RP's with him.
My mage was a halfling, so tail-to-nose the familiar was longer than her master was tall.
It was quite amusing :)
-S
Being a Fan of the Witch class, I do want to see some other options for familiars, and even get some options for improved familiars as well.
The Spell Lists for a Pseudodragon or any of the elementals would be very interesting to see.
And I do agree the Familiar for the witch needs reexamining, it is an interesting switch from the standard spell book, but having them only store spells is not enough.
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Being a Fan of the Witch class, I do want to see some other options for familiars, and even get some options for improved familiars as well.
The Spell Lists for a Pseudodragon or any of the elementals would be very interesting to see.
And I do agree the Familiar for the witch needs reexamining, it is an interesting switch from the standard spell book, but having them only store spells is not enough.
Just thought I would shake the dust off this thread, as a place to discuss how the familiars are still the witches Achilles heel...