*flashy-things Jam412*
Something centered around the Worldwound, with a bit of "hell on earth" flavor, would be neato.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Come on, the inquisition, the purging the demon seed, rooting out the wicked, factions within the crusaders... this thing could be capital G capital R number 8! :)Agreed. Heroes heading off to rid the world of demons, taking a proactive role rather than having adventure thrust upon them, might make for a cool change of pace. And there's enough distance between the demon-themed APs of the Dungeon days that it could make for a good series to explore in another area of the campaign setting...but one which draws crusading "heroes" from all across the Inner Sea, so PCs could literally come from almost any walk of life.
How about this for a possible outline (I just brainstormed this in like 15 minutes or so, so we're not talking Shakespeare here, but try it on for size):
The crusade develops what they hope might be a new strategy, or perhaps a new type of weapon, a new special material that is good vs. demons or that protects against them, a new magical MacGuffin, or whatever, and unleashes it upon a known demon-minion stronghold as an experimental foray, but they need brave (i.e., foolish) soldiers who are willing to take risks (i.e., just starting out and haven't made a name or a fortune for themselves yet).
AP #1 - Experimental strike on Demon Base Alpha - set up for PCs to have a success! The new tactics/weapon/super soldier serum/foo work!
AP #2 - Factions within the crusade see that this new thing works, so each side tries to take control. PCs are perhaps kidnapped by a faction leader who tries to extort the secret out of them or sends them on a "double-secret mission" of his own. Of course, it turns out that so-and-so is or is working for a demon himself.
AP #3 - Okay, now the PCs have made enough noise that the REAL heavy hitters in the factions come out; not demon-shaped ones, but just inquisitor crusaders vs. douchebag crusaders vs. purehearted crusaders; civil war?
AP #4 - Demons make counterstrike while crusaders are in disarray. Maybe one faction is wiped out/crippled, and/or leaders dragged off into the Worldwound, along with some MacGuffin that makes their rescue necessary (the plans/formula/key ingredient for the new weapon). PCs go on rescue mission.
AP #5 - Maybe PCs go to allies for help - part of the adventure is diplomatic, bringing together allies from good or sympathetic neutral nations to come together for giant mega-battle. Perhaps the Worldwound types make appeals to evil nations to attack Mendev whenever the big battle begins; demons will be fighting at the front, but others could fall upon their rear and devastate Mendev and/or destroy the Wardstones and allow the demons free rein.
PCs need to infiltrate the Worldwound and find out what the demons' warplans are, and also try to sabotage their advance base and staging ground and/or kill leader-types. Perhaps they discover a traitor from #2 or #3 is here and feeding them intel and they get to bring him to justice. PCs need to find out what demons are up to and stop them (or else #6 will be a lot harder) while gathering their own allies (or else #6 will be a lot harder).
AP #6 - Crusaders unite (or factional divisions suppressed) and we have some straight-up battle royal for the soul of the world! Crusaders and allies vs. demons and minions. Could have side battles on the home front as demon-allies have counterstrike. PCs can lead the big battles or they can venture once more into the heart of the Worldwound and try to take down the Storm King or one of the other big bads of the WW, or use the "new crusader MacGuffin" to try to CLOSE the Worldwound. If we want to keep the WW as a feature we can have the WW not completely closed, but just suppressed or its expansion halted or reversed... yknow, you may not get TOTAL victory, but for a generation, the demon threat is quelled. Unless you lose, and then it's all bad.
Come on, you're telling me something like that wouldn't be a completely kickass AP?
Say it with me: CRUSAAAAAAAAADE!!!!!!
I approve of Mr. Nelson's concept.
Have there ever been any orcs in any of the Pathfinder APs? I can't think of any...
Not an AP, but there's a nasty half-orc in Carnival of Tears... that's all I can think of either.
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I approve of Mr. Nelson's concept.
+1
Over in those two threads discusing requests for evil AP's and the thread about why the PCs must compromise with evil in all the APs a few us us chimed in with requests to be super shiny extra Good Guys, this path could be that with side bars for less that stellar heros.
I approve of Mr. Nelson's concept.
sounds cool to me
*flashy-things Jam412*
*Vacant look in eyes* Huh? What was I doing here? oh well.. *Wanders out of thread*
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I approve of Mr. Nelson's concept.+1
Over in those two threads discusing requests for evil AP's and the thread about why the PCs must compromise with evil in all the APs a few us us chimed in with requests to be super shiny extra Good Guys, this path could be that with side bars for less that stellar heros.
+3 Sounds cool.
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Something I was just thinking of this morning:
How about an AP along the lines of the old Slave Lords, insofar as the PCs start out as Andoran agents who stumble across evidence of a major slave ring. They trace it along, for port to port throughout the Inner Sea, until reaching some final stronghold of the guys who run the whole show.
Hell, it doesn't even have to stay in the area of port cities, at some point they could maybe head further inland, maybe following a route towards the World Wound or something - I'd guess those demons love getting slaves.
Anyway, I thought something like that might have potential to show off some different areas that haven't been focused on yet.
Something I was just thinking of this morning:
How about an AP along the lines of the old Slave Lords
I like it...and wouldn't be surprised one bit if the Paizo guys already have it on their wish list.
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My theory has been for a while:
Serpent's Skull
Ustalav
Tian Xia
Mendev
Vikings/Irrisen
Though Mendev/Vikings could easily be switched around. The asian stuff they'll want to put out around Gencon. I too am looking for a Mendev game and have been screaming for it for about two years now. Mendev has a great WW1 vibe to it (stagnant war) and Rob McCreary seems to have built on that in the PCCS article (there's a few references to WW1 in there). I happen to have a strong interest in the WW1 era so I am really stoked about it.
Plus Heroes of Battle was my favorite WotC book.
My theory has been for a while:
Serpent's Skull
Ustalav
Tian Xia
Mendev
Vikings/IrrisenThough Mendev/Vikings could easily be switched around. The asian stuff they'll want to put out around Gencon. I too am looking for a Mendev game and have been screaming for it for about two years now. Mendev has a great WW1 vibe to it (stagnant war) and Rob McCreary seems to have built on that in the PCCS article (there's a few references to WW1 in there). I happen to have a strong interest in the WW1 era so I am really stoked about it.
Plus Heroes of Battle was my favorite WotC book.
They have discussed the possibilty of an asian themed hardcover book. I would imagine Tian Xia AP would have to wait for that
They have discussed the possibilty of an asian themed hardcover book. I would imagine Tian Xia AP would have to wait for thatExactly. I believe that will be the hardcover release for Gencon 2011.
I hope it will be as Pathfinder Campaign Setting World Guide: Tian Xia and not as part of the Pathfinder RPG line.
Exactly. I believe that will be the hardcover release for Gencon 2011.
That is certainly a possibility
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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My theory has been for a while:
Serpent's Skull
Ustalav
Tian Xia
Mendev
Vikings/IrrisenThough Mendev/Vikings could easily be switched around. The asian stuff they'll want to put out around Gencon. I too am looking for a Mendev game and have been screaming for it for about two years now. Mendev has a great WW1 vibe to it (stagnant war) and Rob McCreary seems to have built on that in the PCCS article (there's a few references to WW1 in there). I happen to have a strong interest in the WW1 era so I am really stoked about it.
Plus Heroes of Battle was my favorite WotC book.
Perhaps the Mendev/Worldwound AP could come out in conjunction with a more robust mass combat system, building on the simple mass combat rules in Kingmaker.
Also, I might note that I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to write both sides of the conflict for the PCCS - Mendev and the Worldwound!
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My theory has been for a while:
Serpent's Skull
Ustalav
Tian Xia
Mendev
Vikings/Irrisen
Here's hoping that the Vikings/Irrisen AP will take us to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. I know Mr. Jacobs has said that they don't have any immediate plans for this region, but I love the Ice Age / Hollow World vibe, and would be totally into a "vikings sail into the hollow earth" theme.
We've always operated with the assumption that someone running ANY Paizo adventure only has access to the core rulebooks. With the Pathfinder RPG, that means the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and the Pathfinder Bestiary. Even the Gamemastery Guide isn't a core book in this equation.
ANYthing else we put in an adventure will have full stat blocks.
While that's good, does this mean the Bestiary 2 has no value to a DM running Pathfinder Adventure Paths?
Creative Director
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While that's good, does this mean the Bestiary 2 has no value to a DM running Pathfinder Adventure Paths?We've always operated with the assumption that someone running ANY Paizo adventure only has access to the core rulebooks. With the Pathfinder RPG, that means the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and the Pathfinder Bestiary. Even the Gamemastery Guide isn't a core book in this equation.
ANYthing else we put in an adventure will have full stat blocks.
Actually... with Carrion Crown, we're assuming the GM has access to the Bestiary 2 monsters, either via the book itself or via the online PRD. So... yeah. Bestiary 2 will be VERY useful for GMs running Carrion Crown. AKA: The quote you pulled from me is pretty outdated as far as our Bestiary 2 plans. And things like that can go out of date FAST! :)
The quote you pulled from me is pretty outdated as far as our Bestiary 2 plans. And things like that can go out of date FAST! :)
No worries. I was on the forum searching for what books a DM might need and came across that quote. So I was wondering whether or not it was true for post Bestiary2 adventure paths.
Actually... with Carrion Crown, we're assuming the GM has access to the Bestiary 2 monsters, either via the book itself or via the online PRD. So... yeah. Bestiary 2 will be VERY useful for GMs running Carrion Crown. AKA: The quote you pulled from me is pretty outdated as far as our Bestiary 2 plans. And things like that can go out of date FAST! :)
Personally, I find this troublesome. In the future, is Paizo going to assume that the GM will have access to Bestiary n (where n is any arbitrary number)? Or access to Advanced Munchkin Guide? I can already not prevent the players from access to the PRD and its Advanced Players Guide information, but, at least it is freely available.
One of the reasons for jumping to PFRPG from Some Other Company (TM) was the number of splat books that the other company was publishing that we (as the consumer) was expected to purchase. One of the advantages of the PFRPG AP is that they are (except for the core rulebook and Bestiary) self-contained.
This is a troubling trend that bodes ill for the self-containment of the APs.
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Creative Director
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Personally, I find this troublesome. In the future, is Paizo going to assume that the GM will have access to Bestiary n (where n is any arbitrary number)? Or access to Advanced Munchkin Guide? I can already not prevent the players from access to the PRD and its Advanced Players Guide information, but, at least it is freely available.
One of the reasons for jumping to PFRPG from Some Other Company (TM) was the number of splat books that the other company was publishing that we (as the consumer) was expected to purchase. One of the advantages of the PFRPG AP is that they are (except for the core rulebook and Bestiary) self-contained.
This is a troubling trend that bodes ill for the self-containment of the APs.
It's comments like this that I'm keeping an eye out for. If it's a commonly held opinion, we'll switch back.
But being able to use short stat blocks for Bestiary 2 monsters is a huge advantage. That'll let us fit PAGES more of content into each adventure, which becomes even more important at higher levels.
And one thing to remember about PFRPG as opposed to D&D... we made our supplementary monster books both very affordable to buy as PDFs (10 bucks!), and on top of that, made all the monsters open content, so they're free to find on the internet.
APs were already not self contained; they assumed the use of the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary.
Adding Bestiary 2 to that list is unfortunate for the fact that you'll need one more book... but in my opinion, the advantages gained are worth it.
I'll also add that older APs like runelords had contents referring to dozens of different books (bestiaries and the like) that I don't own, and they were still usable.
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Creative Director
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I'll also add that older APs like runelords had contents referring to dozens of different books (bestiaries and the like) that I don't own, and they were still usable.
The difference there is that we reprinted all the rules you need to run those things. We'll continue to do that when we use rules beyond Bestiary 1 and 2... but to what extent? We're still figuring that out. Certainly when we use stuff from 3rd party books. But if we put an inquisitor into an adventure... do we reprint all the rules for how judgements and teamwork feats work? If we don't, then we more or less force you to have access to the Advanced Player's Guide.
Since the APG PDF is 10 bucks, and since the rules are all available for free online anyway at the various PRD type sites... can we get away with that?
Because if we can't, then that basically means we'll never use an inquisitor (or a witch, or a summoner, or anything from the APG) in our adventures, and that seems lame.
Because if we can't, then that basically means we'll never use an inquisitor (or a witch, or a summoner, or anything from the APG) in our adventures, and that seems lame.
I respect trying to save time and effort, you guys work hard. But can you really not use a class if you have to explain just the abilities that that statted NPC has?
Off hand, I can remember a Warlock from the Dungeon days that did not reprint the entire class, as well using Green Ronin's Thaumaturge in Rise of the Runelords without reprinting the entire class.
I'm not sure that its an accurate representation to say that either you only use the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary 1 or you have to require everyone to look up material, from where ever (hard copy, PDF, website), because you cannot reprint anything.
I have to say, also, that making material that isn't in the Core Rulebook a requirement to the APs kind of makes me wonder if the whole foundation of Pathfinder has kind of shifted. If the RPG exist to support the kind of stories you want to tell, as was stated back when the line launched, it seems like the APs should really only require Core materials and print anything else that is needed in the AP itself.
Having the APs point to sources outside of Core (Bestiary 2, APG, Ultimate X), really makes it seem like the AP line now exists to support the RPG line.
"You know that hardcover that is nice and kind of cool but you aren't sure if you really need it? Sure you do, because if you like the APs, you have to have it now to use some of the NPCs/Monsters."
Don't get me wrong, you guys need to make money. I want you to make money. You make quality stuff. But if the RPG line becomes the main focus of Pathfinder, and the AP, adventures, and setting exist to sell more hardcover rulebooks, then the hardcover rulebooks then keep coming out for the primary purpose of putting out a new book.
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Creative Director
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I respect trying to save time and effort, you guys work hard. But can you really not use a class if you have to explain just the abilities that that statted NPC has?
Personally? I don't. But it's not really up to me to make that decision, if we have overwhelming feedback that folks aren't willing to have the APG rules handy.
So far, I think we're probably okay. But it's something I'm still keeping an eye on.
Having the APs point to sources outside of Core (Bestiary 2, APG, Ultimate X), really makes it seem like the AP line now exists to support the RPG line.
The material is available for free in the PRD, so I think this thought is probably a bit off.
One problem is that the Bestiary 2 Monsters have not yet made it to the PRD..when can we expect that?
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Creative Director
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One problem is that the Bestiary 2 Monsters have not yet made it to the PRD..when can we expect that?
Hopefully soon... but until then, they ARE online at fan-maintained websites, like here.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The difference there is that we reprinted all the rules you need to run those things. We'll continue to do that when we use rules beyond Bestiary 1 and 2... but to what extent? We're still figuring that out. Certainly when we use stuff from 3rd party books. But if we put an inquisitor into an adventure... do we reprint all the rules for how judgements and teamwork feats work? If we don't, then we more or less force you to have access to the Advanced Player's Guide.
Since the APG PDF is 10 bucks, and since the rules are all available for free online anyway at the various PRD type sites... can we get away with that?
Because if we can't, then that basically means we'll never use an inquisitor (or a witch, or a summoner, or anything from the APG) in our adventures, and that seems lame.
I haven't subscribed to an AP since my Dragon magazine subscription got converted. Carrion Crown changed that for two reasons. One, it has a classic horror theme. Two, it DOES allow me to use my GMG, Bestiary 2, APG etc in the AP. I bought the books and want to use them.
I resisted getting pulled into buying PF rulebooks for a while. But with only three coming out a year and the books being so useful and so much better balanced than 3.5 my attitude about buying rulebooks has changed. I now see value in getting to use my rulebooks when playing Paizo made APs and modules (having a witch in the Witchwar Legacy or an alchemist in the Godsmouth Heresy all fit well for example).
I would be disappointed if Paizo had to reduce content in an AP or module to reproduce rules that are easily accessed online for free if keeping those pieces in the adventure is central to the story. For example, haunts are critical in Carrion Crown 1 and I wouldn't have wanted to see the GMG pages reprinted to run them.
I believe Carrion Crown would not be as good an AP if creatures from the Bestiary 2 couldn't easily be used or if access to the APG and GMG required the reprinting of rules. And I've enjoyed the content in recent modules so much I subscribed to those as well. Using the Harrow deck for an upcoming module, for example, makes my buying of a Harrow deck a good investment. Especially when I can also use it for Carrion Crown.
I consider carefully considered inclusion of new rules in APs and modules a feature not a rip off or attempt at a money grab.
Personally, I feel that the books included in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line should all be considered core and not have those rules reprinted in APs or modules. If rules from other books are used, those rules should be reprinted. For APs, I also think the Inner Sea World guide should be considered core as well. For modules, I think the Inner Sea World guide info should get reprinted (because GMs may be buying modules but not setting them in Golarion).
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I'll also add that older APs like runelords had contents referring to dozens of different books (bestiaries and the like) that I don't own, and they were still usable.The difference there is that we reprinted all the rules you need to run those things. We'll continue to do that when we use rules beyond Bestiary 1 and 2... but to what extent? We're still figuring that out. Certainly when we use stuff from 3rd party books. But if we put an inquisitor into an adventure... do we reprint all the rules for how judgements and teamwork feats work? If we don't, then we more or less force you to have access to the Advanced Player's Guide.
Since the APG PDF is 10 bucks, and since the rules are all available for free online anyway at the various PRD type sites... can we get away with that?
Because if we can't, then that basically means we'll never use an inquisitor (or a witch, or a summoner, or anything from the APG) in our adventures, and that seems lame.
James - I think Paizo just needs to outline what they consider as core for the AP's, and then go from there. My thoughts are that if Paizo clearly outlines which books they consider core to the AP, which means that detail rules would not be included, I think you would be fine. I think this needs to be posted on the AP web page, and folks would know which books they need to possess. Going forward, Paizo will be publishing more books, and I think it would be good to keep the list up todate, and in the individual AP's list out any optional books that are used or if there is another book that would be considered core for a particular AP.
For the moment, I have a complete collection of Paizo books, but I recognize that not all folks do, and as long as Paizo is up front with what is required, expectations can be set appropriately, which could be slightly different from AP to AP, depending on the theme of the specific AP.
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From the TOC page of Carrion Crown 1:
"This product makes use of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Player's Guide, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Bestiary, and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 2. These rules can be found online as part of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document at
paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd."
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I put in my two cents in a similar thread, but again:
1. Personally I like the expanded stuff; and I hope if its a decision between "semi-core" stuff or less stuff because of the full stat block space issues, we get semi-core.
2. Paizo does put up everthing, for free, into the PRD.
3. Corollary, if it is not (or not yet) in the PRD, Paizo needs to publish the full stat block with explanations in the publication. (Example: Page 24 of AP 42 lists an Astradaemon without a stat block. If you don't have the Bestiary 2, that encounter is not playable as written.)
I know that more sales for the Bestiary 2 are greater than AP 42, and the tempest shouldn't wag the teapot's tail, but I think the above approach is fair, won't cost Paizo any money, is consistent with Paizo's open game approach, and allows Paizo to maintian you don't need more than the 2 core books to play. At least until the SUPER (Supreme Unabridged Pathfinder Expanded Roleplaying) edition is published. We all need to buy that one.
I'm actually really turned off by this approach.
Dirty confession: I've been running APs (including Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull) using the 3.5 MM - I've never purchased the PF Bestiary.
The idea that I have to shell out money for two hardbacks that I didn't budget for (APG & Best2) is really disappointing. If this trend continues (and loops in Ultimate X, etc) then it's going to just be untenable.
Not just a money thing, but it's also a "size of backpack" thing: I don't get to play at home, and there's only so many hardbacked books I can stuff into my backpack (alongside the other stuff I need) before nothing more fits, or it just becomes too much of a pain on my back.
And I won't always have my laptop with me, and when I do, I'm not garunteed to have an AC plugin or wifi access so that I can get PRD content.
Even if I was able to play at home, with all my books and my internet connection, it's still a major hassle having all of these different sources that I'm forced to pull from: there's only so much I can memorize. I think I know how all of the feats and rogue talents in the PHB work, but I haven't committed all of the APG rogue talents and witch hexes to memory yet, and when I come across an NPC stat block that has lots of little bits to look up (and then guess which book they came from), it's daunting. This problem is exacerabated with a high-level NPC. Figuring out all the various things that Eando Kline (SS#5) could do was roughly the limit of what I could stand. If we had access to Ultimate Magic and whatever else on top of all the other options, and I had to flip back and forth between 4 different books just to figure out what he could do - I would throw my hands up in the air, and just print off a 12th level Warrior instead and be done with it.
Remember, in Pathfinder, more than any other RPG before it, the PC classes have tons of abilities, powers, and fiddly-bits. This is great fun for a PC, but as a GM, where we already have to run all the NPCs at once, and we can't take time to carefully love and invest in each one (they're typically only in one combat), those abilities are just too much. Sure, it's "fun" for players to fight people with similar powers, but that's a complex and exhausting proposition for a GM, especially at higher level. Adding in all these extra powers, spells, techniques, etc, and making it "core" and sticking it in the AP: it crosses a line at some point and is just too hard to juggle.
Please, James, don't let the "bloat" infect the APs. I'll have to stop subscribing if you do. As much as we all hated how WotC didn't support things after release, there was some wisdom to it as well. If this means that APs will never feature an Inquisitor - so be it - I can't remember how the Judgements work anyway - I have enough other things to keep track of.
- one random customer's feedback
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OK, who was smart enough to re-start this debate all over again?
I'll quit my subs, burn all Pathfinder books and shout in nerdrage all over the interwebs if the APG/UC/UM/B2 won't be supported in Paizo APs.
Yeah, I don't give a damn about poor people who can't afford an Internet connection or 10 USD for PDF. Why? Because I'm an ignorant, loudmouthed bag with teeth, that's why.
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Creative Director
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Dirty confession: I've been running APs (including Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull) using the 3.5 MM - I've never purchased the PF Bestiary.
Well...
We don't use the 3.5 MM for building our adventures at all anymore, so there's already going to be a fair amount of creatures that appear in the Bestiary that don't appear in the 3.5 MM that you'll be "missing out on" by taking this approach.
I can't say this without looking like I'm trying to pimp Paizo Product, but if you're running an AP, you really should look into using the Bestiary (and the Bestiary 2) instead of the 3.5 MM. Since we always print full stat blocks for classed characters, there'll always be enough information for things like inquisitors and magi and other non-core classes that an experienced GM will be able to run those encounters even if they don't know exactly how hexes or judgments or eidolons work... but the fact that we only print short stat blocks now for monsters from Bestiary or Bestiary 2 means that those monsters are going to tricky in some cases when that monster doesn't also appear in the 3.5 MM.
We haven't yet announced a Bestiary 3. If and when we do, I'll have to decide if requiring THREE monster books is too much or not for an AP or adventure. It probably is, but I'm not sure. I'm relatively sure, though, that the current model of assuming a GM has access to Bestiary and Bestiary 2 is sustainable and workable.
Of course... even if you DON'T own Bestiary 1 or 2, it's a relatively simple matter to look through a new adventure, locate the monsters in that adventure that have short stat blocks you don't have access to via the 3.5 MM, and then go to the internet to just print out those statistics on a page you can then slip into the adventure or your monster book of choice.
One problem is that the Bestiary 2 Monsters have not yet made it to the PRD..when can we expect that?Hopefully soon... but until then, they ARE online at fan-maintained websites, like here.
Thanks James..I was aware of that but it would be useful to have everything on one site as the fan maintained sites are not available to me at work..where I do quite a lot of my PbP posting from.
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I appreciate the concerns of the guys above about "bloat." I do have some suggestions that may, or may not be of help.
First, remember that by investing in the Bestiary you are in fact not adding any additional books of what-so-ever to your backpack. You replace the obsolete MM 3.5 with the newer, updated Bestiary.
Additionally, there is no need at all to purchase the hardcovers of the APG nor Bestiary 2 if you are not inclined to do so. The PDFs are quite affordable. Nor is it necessary to even take your laptop with you to have access to what is needed from these documents.
When I run an AP, or any game for that matter, I read the material I will be using ahead of time. I copy the text from the PDF to a Pages document (for you windows users, Pages is a word processing program similar to its less able cousin Word). In these Pages documents I add notes of what I want to happen and what I want to draw attention to, dramatic moments, etc. In addition I remove the stunted Monster description and paste in a full stat block of the monster I need. I often times make additional notes on how I want to run the monster and changes I want to make.
I print out the Pages document and have every single thing I need for a night's game.
Now, I also take my iPad with me, along with hundreds of PDFs, some from Paizo, and many more from 3rd party publishers. Just in case... :)
Regardless of my PDF backups, everything I need is in my Pages documents. I don't always run adventures "by the book." I like to embellish, develop little odds and ends, and swing things to the way I see the story. As such, the paper versions of the APs, or other adventures, are not of much use to me.
Where do I find time for all of this? In one evening, a few hours is all I need. I have to read the adventure ahead of time already. Why not take that time and make further use of it? A copy and paste takes hardly any effort or time at all. The notes added are invaluable. Often times when reading the full stat block of a monster I get the giggles as I come up with diabolical, or occasionally, comical, deeds for the monster, which make their ways into my notes.
I can run an entire night's game from my a few sheets of paper alone.
What do I do when a rule dispute occurs, or some course of action seems unclear with the rules? I am a GM, so I do what a GM does. I make a ruling and move on. If you are familiar with the rules, then making a ruling is an easy matter. While not every ruling is "by the book," I often find that the Rules As Written often fail to consider the special circumstances and the fun that is to be had. Many times the RAW is detrimental to fun. And for me the fun is the most important part of the game.
If on the other hand, you delight in the feel and mass of a book, or find joy in the Rules As Written, then my method will be of no use to you at all. But I thought I would at least share, just in case.
:)
BTW, in the course of preparing my Pages document, I also make paper "figures" of all the monsters and bad guys I need for the adventure. These I cut out into one inch (or whatever size is right) squares. I use paper chits for the basic monsters, painted minis for the PCs, and painted plastic minis for the "bosses." This does two things. First it makes it easier for me to quickly spot all of my bad guys and differentiate them from the PCs, and also draws attention to the Bad Guy. Additionally in that same evening, only a few hours, I also make a battle map in Photoshop and send it to Sam's Club for printing on 8x10s. This gives me some really nice maps to do battle on, and quick and easy "minis" customized for my game. Along with my Pages document I have every thing I could possibly need.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Remember, in Pathfinder, more than any other RPG before it, the PC classes have tons of abilities, powers, and fiddly-bits. This is great fun for a PC, but as a GM, where we already have to run all the NPCs at once, and we can't take time to carefully love and invest in each one (they're typically only in one combat), those abilities are just too much. Sure, it's "fun" for players to fight people with similar powers, but that's a complex and exhausting proposition for a GM, especially at higher level. Adding in all these extra powers, spells, techniques, etc, and making it "core" and sticking it in the AP: it crosses a line at some point and is just too hard to juggle.
Please, James, don't let the "bloat" infect the APs. I'll have to stop subscribing if you do. As much as we all hated how WotC didn't support things after release, there was some wisdom to it as well. If this means that APs will never feature an Inquisitor - so be it - I can't remember how the Judgements work anyway - I have enough other things to keep track of.
- one random customer's feedback
I agree with just about everything Eric said especially the above. In fact once my group is done with Curse the biggest concern I have in running Kingmaker next is the lack of PF rule books (we are a 3.5 group).
- make that TWO random customer's feedback
With respect, I think it is a bit much to ask Paizo not to reference its own rules in the modules it publishes for its game if you are buying a module from Paizo but don't plan to use Paizo's own rulebooks to play that module. Further, again just my opinion, it is a bit much to ask the customers (like me) who buy both Paizo's rules and modules to not receive any added value by seeing rules used in a module they have bought because other customers are using an out of print/other company's rulebook. Especially when Paizo lets the rules get published for free AND still supports the game I enjoy playing.
I don't want to pay to have a lot of rules reprinted so owners of 3.5 don't have to go online and download Pathfinder rules for free. I would be paying twice for something that other customers are unwilling to pay for once or download for free.
Why should customers who buy the AP also get rules from the Bestiaries, GMG, APG, etc. as well when they can simply print those rules out online? Especially when other customers would then pay twice for the same rules (something that drove me nuts when Wizards did it with 3.5--favored soul and warmage each appearing in two books for example).
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I can't say this without looking like I'm trying to pimp Paizo Product, but if you're running an AP, you really should look into using the Bestiary (and the Bestiary 2) instead of the 3.5 MM. Since we always print full stat blocks for classed characters, there'll always be enough information for things like inquisitors and magi and other non-core classes that an experienced GM will be able to run those encounters even if they don't know exactly how hexes or judgments or eidolons work... but the fact that we only print short stat blocks now for monsters from Bestiary or Bestiary 2 means that those monsters are going to tricky in some cases when that monster doesn't also appear in the 3.5 MM.
I think you should pimp Paizo Product, James. I don't know how many hours and how much money Paizo spent on the Bestiary 2 but it should be pimped proudly. It's a masterpiece and stands right next to the Bestiary in quality and usefulness. I think Paizo should start pimping!:)
We haven't yet announced a Bestiary 3. If and when we do, I'll have to decide if requiring THREE monster books is too much or not for an AP or adventure. It probably is, but I'm not sure. I'm relatively sure, though, that the current model of assuming a GM has access to Bestiary and Bestiary 2 is sustainable and workable.
You can never have too many monsters. If Paizo continues to print quality rulebooks of monsters, hopefully including Bestiary 3, I want those monsters appearing in APs and modules using just the name, hit points, and reference location. As a customer, I'll consider it a reward for supporting Pathfinder. Why should I not get use out of Paizo rulebooks I put my money into buying and my time into learning?
Yeah, I don't give a damn about poor people who can't afford an Internet connection or 10 USD for PDF. Why? Because I'm an ignorant, loudmouthed bag with teeth, that's why.
Yeah you know what? You don't have to be an ignorant, loudmouthed bag wit teeth to be annoyed by things like this.
Really? youre running the AP's in 3.5 and then complaining about the amount of Pathfinder material available?
A ruleset that is pretty much availale FOR FREE and you cant be arsed to, I dont know, maybe prep ahead, and get the stuff off the PFSRD sit or the Wiki BEFORE hand?
I mean I BUY the Pathfinder stuff and I'm running a 3.5 AP converted to Pathfinder and that's EXACTLY what I do. So I'm having a hard time garnering any sympathy for someone who refuses to prep and then requests that that company that shell out money to to provide cool stuff, cut back on said cool stuff.
I'm not interested in getting into an internet flamewar with anyone. James said he wanted feedback. Yelling at me and saying you're annoyed with my purchasing habits isn't going to change me as a person, nor other people in the same market segment as me that just aren't posting right now. It'll just make us quieter on the forums.
I consider myself an AP and module-line customer. I do not consider myself a crunch-book customer. Yes, Paizo puts out both these products, but that doesn't mean they are the same markets. I'm currently using Internet Explorer to type this post, but I do all my email through GMail. Just because Microsoft makes one product that I like, doesn't mean I'm going to use all of them.
Back under the WotC days, I never purchased a single "Complete" book - I'm just not interested in loads of crunch. I'm one of those "light gamers" that would currently be using an indie gaming product were it not for the high-quality APs that Paizo puts out. I really like the APs, and consider myself a faithful AP customer. Heck, this winter I bought people AP issues for their Christmas presents, and I otherwise exhort my friends to pick them up (as well as other fluff-centric) materials. But I can't withstand the heavy weight of complex crunch that pulls from multiple different sources that all need to be looked up ahead of time. I just can't do it. If you can, then that's great for you and your players. I'm saying I can't.
(Here I'm principally criticizing the APG and my fears of the upcoming Ultimate books. Bestiaries I can handle. But Inquisitor Judgments and how they interact or stack with a Battle Herald's Inspiring Commands? Too much research and FAQ-searching for a one-off fight. (And when it comes to PC class's powers, but players will not let me handwave or bend the rules, because now I'm messing with "their" stuff. Please don't argue this logic, it's just the way it is with my friends.))
You are a valid market segment too, and I don't mean to invalidate you. You certainly cause loads of headaches for me and I have reasons I wish you didn't influence the marketplace as much as you did, but I don't attack you for it. Let's not recriminate each other.