I was thinking about how some of us (myself included) would like to see some evolutions that don't make Large and Huge must-haves. What about a Small/Medium only evolution that granted a +2 to all scores at the same cost/level as Large, with a stackable version of the same thing at the same cost/level as Huge? Also, I would like to see a 2-point powerful build evolution for the same sizes, with the add-on that quadruped and serpentine base forms qualify as one size larger for serving as mounts also.
Anyone else with some suggestions for keeping smaller eidolons competitive?
Firstly- I don't disagree with the concept.
But, alot of the folks who make large/huge/whatever Eidolons seem to think that every encounter they ever have is going to take place in some enormous room/place with extremely easy access for such big things.
A large creature will have a difficult time getting into a -tavern- much less navigating a cave or ship. A Huge one will just flat out stay in the stables. And will probably have to skip the ship, building explorations, etc. altogether.
Somthing thats 15 feet on a side is going to have a very difficult time, I would think, participating in nearly any place the PC's go unless the campaign is one where they are outside just about all the time.
The point? I'm not sure the smaller ones need to worry so much about being "competitive" with the huge guys. I think alot of the size issues are mostly in encounter testing and hypotheticals more than it will exist in actual game play where the locations the PC's visit are varied enough to prohibit such "gargantuan" creatures.
While I agree that making a Huge Eidolon shouldn't be the only viable option- we should be careful trying to 'balance' against the hypothetical Huge ones because I think they will be alot more rare in actual game play than in the play tests.
just my .02
-S
edit: typos.
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Yeah, I would like to see more things that make having a smaller Eidolon more appealing. Maybe have evolutions that make them even smaller and give them the opposite bonuses (the bonuses for becoming smaller) and then give some more supportive evolutions. What I am thinking is if someone wanted to have an Eidolon that was like a fairy or something similar to that, that did more buffs or healing than combat.
While I don't necessarily disagree regarding Huge, I don't think Large is as big an issue as people think. There are LOTS of Large creatures that dungeons have to account for as enemies, meaning that getting the Large eidolon around shouldn't be so painfully difficult. On top of that, you can take Reduce Person, which your share spells ability allows to function on your eidolon. And while the Large creature may not get full movement, it can squeeze through doorways meant for Medium creatures (see pg. 193 of PFRPG). Huge may not find things easy, but Reduce Person gives it the squeeze through option also. And this is disregarding burrow entirely.
While I don't necessarily disagree regarding Huge, I don't think Large is as big an issue as people think. There are LOTS of Large creatures that dungeons have to account for as enemies, meaning that getting the Large eidolon around shouldn't be so painfully difficult. On top of that, you can take Reduce Person, which your share spells ability allows to function on your eidolon. And while the Large creature may not get full movement, it can squeeze through doorways meant for Medium creatures (see pg. 193 of PFRPG). Huge may not find things easy, but Reduce Person gives it the squeeze through option also. And this is disregarding burrow entirely.
This is a pretty good idea, it is also a good way to get a large or medium sized Eidolon into town.
The only downside is if someone casts dispel magic to debuff your pet he explodes, possibly crushing him.
The only downside is if someone casts dispel magic to debuff your pet he explodes, possibly crushing him.
I'm not sure how this would work actually. As a DM, I would rule that it functions like enlarge person, maxing out size within the space you have available, except that it grows to full size the second it actually has the space. It's not exactly a problem you run into very often.
Yeah, I would like to see more things that make having a smaller Eidolon more appealing. Maybe have evolutions that make them even smaller and give them the opposite bonuses (the bonuses for becoming smaller) and then give some more supportive evolutions. What I am thinking is if someone wanted to have an Eidolon that was like a fairy or something similar to that, that did more buffs or healing than combat.
Would you happen to have any ideas for those kind of evolutions? Jason has stated that the reason they don't get smaller than Small is that he feels the stat changes aren't worth it, and without quite a few more evolutions that would be useful to smaller forms, I believe he may be right. I certainly couldn't justify going below Small, and even that being worth it outside of min-maxing to qualify for feats is questionable.
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Here are some evolutions for making the Eidolon of smaller sizes.
2 Point Evolution
Tiny (Ex): An eidolon shrinks in size, becoming Tiny. The eidolon gains a +2 bonus to Dexterity. It takes a –4 penalty to its Strength and a -2 penalty to its Constitution. This size change also gives the creature a +1 size bonus to its AC and on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to its CMB and CMD, a +2 bonus on Fly skill checks, and a +4 bonus on Stealth skill checks. Reduce the damage of all of its attacks by one step (1d6 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d3, etc). The eidolon must be Small to take this evolution, and the bonuses and penalties stack. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
3 Point Evolution
Diminutive (Ex): An eidolon shrinks in size, becoming Diminutive. The eidolon gains a +2 bonus to Dexterity. It takes a –2 penalty to its Strength and a -2 penalty to its Constitution. This size change also gives the creature a +2 size bonus to its AC and on attack rolls, a -2 penalty to its CMB and CMD, a +2 bonus on Fly skill checks, and a +4 bonus on Stealth skill checks. Reduce the damage of all of its attacks by one step (1d6 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d3, etc). The eidolon must possess the Tiny evolution before selecting this evolution, and the bonuses and penalties stack. The summoner must be at least 11th level before selecting this evolution.
Here is an interesting idea that is limited to Eidolons of small or smaller size.
3 Point Evolution
Split Form (EX): The Eidolon splits into an additional copy of itself. The copies act individually and are treated as individual creatures but share all of the evolutions of the original. They split their HP between them equally. So if the original Eidolon had 14 HP, the two new forms would have 7 HP each. If a copy is killed it disappears and does not return till the Eidolon is summoned again. This evolution is limited to Eidolons of size small or smaller. This evolution may be taken multiple times each time creating an additional copy but splitting the Eidolons total HP equally among the new forms.
or it could work like this
Split Form (EX): The Eidolon splits into an additional copy of itself. The original and the additional copy act individually and are treated as individual creatures. They each have their own HP and abilities equal to the original. You must spend your evolution points on each Eidolon individually and you draw from the same pool for each. If a copy is killed it disappears and does not return till the Eidolon is summoned again. This evolution is limited to Eidolons of size small or smaller. This evolution may be taken multiple times each time creating an additional copy.
The first one would make carbon copies of the Eidolon but make it have less HP so it will more than likely not last as long. The other option is to have them share the base statistics like HP, etc. but you must spend evolution points on them as if they were individual Eidolons.
Let me know what you think of these.
I agree.
There needs to be some reason to just not stay medium, aside from some bonuses to a few skill checks.
Becoming large and huge isn't about skill checks, its about the Eidolon becoming much, much more effective in combat.
You/we need to find the niche we want being small (and smaller) to fill, then make shrinking fill that niche.
-S
I'm not sure the skill thing is a size-related issue so much as it is an inherent design issue. As written, all eidolons start with combat-focused stats, and this shouldn't be the case. There needs to be mwchanics for creating a creature that isn't predisposed to be a combat monster, making other roles difficult to obtain.
I agree.
But there has to be *some* reason other than fluff to say "i want my eidolon to be small".
That doesn't have to be a combat reason. But it should be some reason.
If not, then you are just wasting your evolution points. Being small or dimu needs to be at least as effective, in some role or other, as going large or huge.
It doesn't need to translate into damage, but it should be just as viable and useful. Otherwise, why take the points? It should at least be a better idea for whatever the stated goal/niche is than just staying medium and spending the points on something else.
You are losing a ton of hit points and the ability to be effective in melee combat. In exchange you are gaining some armor class, some dexterity, and some skill bonuses.
You need to gain something else to make it worth the cost.
Remember- you can get +8 to any skill for 1 evolution point.
If you are just doing it for the stealth, thats a much more attractive option.
just my .02.
-S
I'm not sure the skill thing is a size-related issue so much as it is an inherent design issue. As written, all eidolons start with combat-focused stats, and this shouldn't be the case. There needs to be mwchanics for creating a creature that isn't predisposed to be a combat monster, making other roles difficult to obtain.
Agreed!
Smaller Eidolons is a hard issue, I would like to create a small/medium eidolon combat viable but actual design approach is too focused on STR/SIZE evolution. I think the actual Eidolon scout design lose too much combat prowess as price for it's utilities
Entirely agreed, but I don't have many ideas for handling. As for the scout, I don't think that's particularly valuable one way or the other, even if the combat-focused stats problem was removed, simply because of how severe the distance limitations from the Life Link ability are. In dungeon, it might work. Outside of a dungeon, it can't get far enough ahead to be useful without debilitating itself.
Some Transformation evolutions would be nice;
Figurine: Your Eidolon transforms into a tiny figurine and can be changed back as a free action.
Familiar: Your Eidolon transforms into the shape of a Familiar (your choice what type).
Decoy: Your Eidolon transforms into a copy of yourself, but retains all of it;s abilities.
Had an interesting thought while re-reading the thread.
One of the problems with the scout is the 100ft limitation. Why not let being small or dimu, as an evolutionary bonus, allow that limitation to be extended?
Maybe 200 feet for small, 300 feet (total) for dimu?
that would allow you to make a very small creature who could actually do some decent scouting.
Just a thought.
-S
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Had an interesting thought while re-reading the thread.
One of the problems with the scout is the 100ft limitation. Why not let being small or dimu, as an evolutionary bonus, allow that limitation to be extended?
Maybe 200 feet for small, 300 feet (total) for dimu?
that would allow you to make a very small creature who could actually do some decent scouting.
Just a thought.
-S
I was thinking the same. Have it so that a small and medium is normal, tiny increases it by 100 ft. and diminutive increase it by another 100 ft. for a total of 300 ft.
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It'd be nice to have a little blob of pink just EAT things. Yes, that's a Kirby reference. D&D has so many cool monsters and ideas, but bigger is not always better.
I want to be able to build Nibbler from Futurama. He'll be smart and cute, and then he swallows hole a purple worm.
Or even just Pikachu it. Have a little ball of yellow, and throw it at enemies. They go "WTF?" and next thing they know, it's sending 3d6 of electricity, or whatever.
In another alternative evolution thread, I posted this option:
Elite (4 pts): The eidolon gains the advanced simple template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 to natural armor). This evolution may only be selected by small or medium eidolons, and only after the summoner has reached 9th level.
As for the tiny/diminuitive options posted earlier here, I think the idea of having them cost *anything* is silly. Just downgrading to small is a net -4 to your eidolon as far as evolution points goes (never mind the diminished value of all the attacks that require being bigger than your target). Going even smaller makes it completely irrelevant, combatwise. I know that's not the point, but you just hemmorhage value by dropping size. It makes no sense to actually *charge* points to get tiny. Personally, with the str & con drops you're suggesting, I might give +2 evolution points for going down to tiny, and a further +3 for diminuitive. At that point, your eidolon is rice paper in a fight, so you really deserve a few more SLA's.
As for being a better scout, why not an evolution like
Explorer (2 pts) Your eidolon may go up to 1000 ft. from you before suffering any ill effects.
Don't tie smallness to exploration range.
As for being a better scout, why not an evolution like
Explorer (2 pts) Your eidolon may go up to 1000 ft. from you before suffering any ill effects.
Don't tie smallness to exploration range.
I like this, and agree that it should not be tied to size. While smaller eidolons will make the most use of it due to their superior Stealth, getting outside of 100 ft could be useful in combat for any eidolon.
In another alternative evolution thread, I posted this option:
Elite (4 pts): The eidolon gains the advanced simple template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 to natural armor). This evolution may only be selected by small or medium eidolons, and only after the summoner has reached 9th level.
As for the tiny/diminuitive options posted earlier here, I think the idea of having them cost *anything* is silly. Just downgrading to small is a net -4 to your eidolon as far as evolution points goes (never mind the diminished value of all the attacks that require being bigger than your target). Going even smaller makes it completely irrelevant, combatwise. I know that's not the point, but you just hemmorhage value by dropping size. It makes no sense to actually *charge* points to get tiny. Personally, with the str & con drops you're suggesting, I might give +2 evolution points for going down to tiny, and a further +3 for diminuitive. At that point, your eidolon is rice paper in a fight, so you really deserve a few more SLA's.
As for being a better scout, why not an evolution like
Explorer (2 pts) Your eidolon may go up to 1000 ft. from you before suffering any ill effects.
Don't tie smallness to exploration range.
I like the idea of going smaller "refunding" evo points. that would help the people that want to make their eidolon more of a skill user or spellcaster than a simple beatstick.
I think they are trying to make smaller Big E's (lil e, if you will) into something viable other than in a direct damage capacity.
through skills, mental abilities, poison uses and such.. rather than just making them small and stapling a damage booster onto them.
(which really is just having them damage machines in a small package rather than in a large one)
I think they are trying to make smaller Big E's (lil e, if you will) into something viable other than in a direct damage capacity.
through skills, mental abilities, poison uses and such.. rather than just making them small and stapling a damage booster onto them.
(which really is just having them damage machines in a small package rather than in a large one)
I'd like it if Paizo properly enabled that, but since 'lil e has all the mental deficiencies of Big E, plus shaft for constitution, he's never gonna have worthwhile non-spell-like attacks. Most of the cool ones require being larger than the target (constrict, swallow whole, grab, trample) and the ones that don't work off DCs using con scores (breath weapon, poison, web).
I mean, I've designed a decent small eidolon - essentially a backpack of +4 AC and saves with a reach attack - but much as I'd have liked to give it poison, it would have cost way too many points to even get a mediocre save DC out of it.
Since I saw the summoner, I've been considering a homebrew to convert it to an Artificer, with the Eidolon becoming your Homonculus. This has caused me to consider Tiny and small as the starting points. What we may also need is more starting forms, such as:
Humanoid
Size: Medium; Spd 30 ft;
Good Reflex, Good Will, +2 Natural Armor
Str 14 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 11
Free Evolutions: Limbs (Arm), Limbs (Leg), Weapon
And rather than equipping your eidolon, why not make weapons evolutions themselves?
Weapon: Your Eidolon posesses a simple melee or ranged weapon and is proficient in its use. For an additional point, it gains proficiency in all simple weapons, and its weapon may be any martial weapon. This weapon may recieve the benefit of other evolutions, such as Energy attack or Improved Damage. This weapon is considered part of the Eidolon and does not remain when it returns.
When you think of the Eidolon as an outsider, and remember that Outsiders include the Azata, Archons, and Angels, I think it kinda fits.