And to a previous poster: Nerfing is nerfing. If they nerf the playtest class, they nerf the class.
Yes and no. The playtest class isn't fully designed. It's a sample from which a large playtest audience can provide feedback to the designer to result in a balanced, fun final class. In a sense, the community is acting as co-designer and together with Jason are designing the final class. Should something get reduced (an ability or class function, say) after the class is final, then sure, that's a nerf.
Right now? It's all design.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I like the longer version of your post much better. You should do more posting as a gamer.
Maybe in a sidebar ... DMing advice for handling summoners.Now that's a good idea.
Sweet! I want a designer credit. Nothing big, just my name on the cover in a sparkly pink font the same point size as the title of the book.
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I like the longer version of your post much better. You should do more posting as a gamer.Sweet! I want a designer credit. Nothing big, just my name on the cover in a sparkly pink font the same point size as the title of the book.Maybe in a sidebar ... DMing advice for handling summoners.Now that's a good idea.
Would having you're pony avatar stated up as the Cavalier mount or summoner Eidolon be enough?
Sweet! I want a designer credit. Nothing big, just my name on the cover in a sparkly pink font the same point size as the title of the book.
If I put that on your copy by hand with a pink sparkle marker, would that work?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If I put that on your copy by hand with a pink sparkle marker, would that work?
Sweet! I want a designer credit. Nothing big, just my name on the cover in a sparkly pink font the same point size as the title of the book.
I'm okay with that as long as you're okay with me putting "Credited on Cover of PFRPG Advanced Player's Guide" on my resume.
At later levels (assuming he has a wizard along who can cast rope trick) this might become an issue, but I'm curious in what gaming group would the players be okay with one character summoning a bunch of stuff and hiding while that character gets to play and everyone gets to watch?
That gives me an idea...
Build a group that focuses heavily on roleplay, and game-world socialising and includes at least one summoner.
When the players want to flex their "hack and slash" muscles, the summoner calls up some monsters to send them ahead, and the players take over the monsters rampaging through the area.
Seams like a good plan to me.
I'm trying to imagine why a credit like that would benefit a lawyer ....
Unless you're putting in on there to sabotage your career ...
So that you can join our industry ...
TO SABOTAGE OUR INDUSTRY!
You devious little pony, you.
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Where do you get that merely resting 8 hours will get a Wizard back his spells after he's blown his daily limit before a whole day is up? The word daily is plastered all over the arcane magic section about regaining spells.
Are you implying that a wizard can wake at 6am, memorize spells, then cast them all before 2pm. Then he rests from 2 pm to 10 pm and cast all his spells again before 6 am the next day?
--Dick Clark's Vrockin New Years Eve
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I think, that if you really wish to test these encounters, there is one way to do so.
Run them through the first few encounters of Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne. If the character can solo the entire dungeon/encounter, then obviously something is wrong.
But if they can't manage that, then they are in some sort of balance. I could feasibly see all the classes beating one, two encounters max. All of them could be more of a problem.
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I defy anyone to try a trick like that at my table. It will work once in a blue moon, if that often. You plaster the one or maybe two encounters. Great good job you get a cookie. Now...the problem is there are 8 more encounters to go. yes you could just go rest, wait a day and start back up agin. One of two bad things are about to occur, however. Either everything left in the area has decided to come and knock on the door you are resting behind and ask if you can come out and play now, and they really aren't taking no for an answer or... They are going to finish their diabolical plans and destroy the world while you are kicked back and watching cartoons on the wizards portable dvd player.
Unnecessary. The party sleeps to regain spells and daily powers as soon as 1 combat is over.
And to a previous poster: Nerfing is nerfing. If they nerf the playtest class, they nerf the class.
I don't know about you, but in the games I am playing or mastering, sleeping in a dungeon or just outside of it is dangerous, close to suicidal.
Furthermore, if you get up at 8, and have your big battle at about 8:45, right after breakfast, getting a full rest won't be easy. After all, you are still rested... sort of.
Also, I own neither ROTRL nor COTCT nor do I care to buy them. If Paizo's planning to hook me up to playtest, I'd be game, but I doubt that's happening.
Actually, there is Hollow's Last Hope
Run your summoner character through that, and see how well he/she does?
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Pathfinder Spell prep:
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
I saw no mention of "resting" bringing back uses of SLAs. There seems to just have a number of times per day usage.
You still have your regular spells and the pokemo..digimo...eidolon. More than enough.
Other spells ... you mean those cool little red & white balls?
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They'll sleep for a day then :)
and as dm, it will be the day of 1000 random/roaming encounters.
Player: this sucks, it's a perfectly valid tactic. These are just grudge monsters.
GM: the troll eating your spleen agrees, and asks you to pass the salt. You shouldn't have camped down at such a busy spot, I guess.
One SLA summon at a time seems very reasonable. Between that and an Eidolon, the summoner has got enough to still a dominant force in the party. I would also think that it would be nice if the summoner could automatically communicate with the SLA monster. As a player I much prefer 2 monsters I can control vs 5-6 that can't coordinate and only attack the baddy nearest to them.
I suggest instead making balanced classes, so all of the characters can equally participate in roleplay, game-world socializing, and hack & slash.
I need to ask, why is D20 (and all derivatives) the only system that must, must, , have balanced classes, all day every day?
No other system even pretends to have balanced classes.
Is it because D20 has to be produced to the least common denominator?
About the rest time and daily allotment of spells:
If I recall correctly, you can't spend 8 hours of rest before another day has passed. It's all geared to say "pick a time where you wake up and that'll be the time when you (spend one hour to) get your spells renewed." Or something.
About ways to limit the Summoner's summons:
I suggest replacing the SLA with a -1 level adjustment (-2 at level 10, -3 at level 20) when Metamagicking a Summon spell (typically Extend at first levels, and Quicken later). What do you think?
Unnecessary. The party sleeps to regain spells and daily powers as soon as 1 combat is over.
Apparently, you or your GM run your adventures as if they are static. Most GMs have dynamic dungeons, if the players return the next day the occupants are more prepared for them. The more time you give them the more reinforcements they bring to the table. They set traps, start changing things based on the players weaknesses. If the PCs retreat to regroup the creatures hunt them down. Often, there are provisions in the module for doing this but a good GM does it regardless.
In Temple of Elemental Evil there were spies in town and they sent assassins against the party. Monte Cooks Dungeon a Day has intrigue in town and if you wait a day reinforcements arrive, patrols return, or new creatures move in.
There are times when you can get away with 1 encounter per day but quite often it just doesn't work unless you have a particularly lazy GM.
The massive summoning from anybody is a problem, but moreso for the summoner because thats about all he can do; therefore, you either have someone who does what the class is built to do, and possibly piss off everyone else at the table, or tell that player he can't play his character the way it was designed to be played. The simplest solution to me is that one SLA up at at time, automatically give him the summon monster spells as bonus spells, and if the player wants to summon an entire army he can spend a full round and a spell slot to do so. Still possible to break a combat, but at least it forces him to use more of his resources to do so.
The massive summoning from anybody is a problem, but moreso for the summoner because thats about all he can do; therefore, you either have someone who does what the class is built to do, and possibly piss off everyone else at the table, or tell that player he can't play his character the way it was designed to be played. The simplest solution to me is that one SLA up at at time, automatically give him the summon monster spells as bonus spells, and if the player wants to summon an entire army he can spend a full round and a spell slot to do so. Still possible to break a combat, but at least it forces him to use more of his resources to do so.
That is not a bad idea. My only issue with restricting the summons to 1 active at a time is the strength of the summon spells. They aren't very effect currently. So you need to spam them and that lends nicely to this class. I know with my druid I rarely summon its just not an effective use of a spell. I think the game would have been better served allowing someone to summon 1 decent summons and that be the end of it. So my solution is this. Allow the Summoner to cast summon monster spell as the next highest level spell with the caveat the he can only have one (SP) summons active at a time. If he wants to spam more then he can use spell slots at regular level. To be honest I don't see any sorcerer type wasting a spell slot known on summon monster spells.
Summoners have serious nova/15-minute-workday problems, and the Summon Monster I class ability is the cause. I am going to do some same-game-test examples, where the summoner casts all of his summoning spells pre-combat and hides in a Rope Trick with his eidolon and the rest of the party. ECT...
i like the way you presented all this. but to be honest, how is all this different than a normal spell caster with a focus on conjuration? i got to see a powered caster that took over for the party's combat at one point. it's just part of the game.
as to the solution, there isn't much of one, other than to maybe limit the number of summon abilities active to one at a time. it won't stop the caster from picking up the summon spells and using them in the way you fear.
i like the way you presented all this. but to be honest, how is all this different than a normal spell caster with a focus on conjuration? i got to see a powered caster that took over for the party's combat at one point. it's just part of the game.
as to the solution, there isn't much of one, other than to maybe limit the number of summon abilities active to one at a time. it won't stop the caster from picking up the summon spells and using them in the way you fear.
It is different because of the minutes per level duration. It's definitely a change but I'm still not convinced it's really game breaking because all the examples I've seen have been in the game world of hypothetica or contrived to prove a point.
That is not a bad idea. My only issue with restricting the summons to 1 active at a time is the strength of the summon spells. They aren't very effect currently. So you need to spam them and that lends nicely to this class. I know with my druid I rarely summon its just not an effective use of a spell. I think the game would have been better served allowing someone to summon 1 decent summons and that be the end of it. So my solution is this. Allow the Summoner to cast summon monster spell as the next highest level spell with the caveat the he can only have one (SP) summons active at a time. If he wants to spam more then he can use spell slots at regular level. To be honest I don't see any sorcerer type wasting a spell slot known on summon monster spells.
I have to say, I had the opposite experience, playing a druid to level 12. Summoning elementals was very very handy a lot of the time. Especially since I didn't have to prepare the damn spells.
Anyone who can summon more than one monster as its shtick is going to be difficult to balance. Superior numbers is a time-tested tactical advantage, especially when the creatures your are throwing into battle are essentially throw-away, kamikaze, celestial dire-badgers, or the like.
for my money, they should drop the summoners HD/BAB to d6/poor. The eidolon already does the heavy hitting, along with whatever creatures Ash pulls out of his pokey-balls. Its likely the summoner never learns to be a half-way decent fighter. Although I suppose that would limit the people who want to make their eidolon a dragon mount, and ride it into combat (which I have to admit is pretty nifty).
Anyone who can summon more than one monster as its shtick is going to be difficult to balance. Superior numbers is a time-tested tactical advantage, especially when the creatures your are throwing into battle are essentially throw-away, kamikaze, celestial dire-badgers, or the like.
for my money, they should drop the summoners HD/BAB to d6/poor.
Err... how does dropping the summoner to poor BAB and 1 less hit point per level change their ability to mass summon, which is what you seem to object to?
It's fine if you consider that a problem, but the suggested fix is a non sequitur.