To be a Pokemon Master - Summoner SGT playtesting

[A Man In Black]

Summoners have serious nova/15-minute-workday problems, and the Summon Monster I class ability is the cause. I am going to do some same-game-test examples, where the summoner casts all of his summoning spells pre-combat and hides in a Rope Trick with his eidolon and the rest of the party.

I am aware that not every fight allows players to set up min/level spells. However, many do, and completely breaking the game whenever the summoner gets the ability to do so is not good design.

Level 1:

Ash the summoner has charisma 15, so he gets 5 casts. He picks celestial riding dogs, and summons five of them, to defend Fort Rope Trick from a rampaging ogre (CR 3).

The dogs stay as a tight pack, as dogs do, as the ogre approaches. The ogre, no fool, hefts a javelin and pegs a dog, likely wounding it. He'd need to crit to kill it, and he only hits 45% of the time. The dogs all charge, and the ogre finishes off the wounded dog with a javelin as they approach. Plenty of melee damage to get the job done, and he hits a charging dog ~90% of the time in melee. Two hits can't not drop a dog unless he rolls two 1s on d8s.

Two of the dogs harry the ogre, nipping at his heels, while the other two pounce like hunting cats, trying to pull the ogre down into the pack, moving with the kind of coordination no mortal canines can manage. Two dogs just move up to set up flanks, while the other two actually charge. The ogre had to be 30' away to have a decent chance to hit with a javelin and dogs move 40', so this is pretty fair. The coordination is fluffing up the smite, which they're going to be using this round. The dogs swarm over him, biting his shoulder and thigh, trying to pull him down with coordinated effort and sheer body weight. One of the dogs to his front hits, with two attacks coming with a 55% chance to hit, and one of the dogs behind him hits, with two attacks coming with a 45% chance to hit. That's 2d6+10 damage from the smiting dogs, with a 50% chance trip chance and a 40% chance trip chance coming.

If he falls, he's done for. Either he gets up, taking another 2d6+10 damage and very likely killing him, or he flails with his club from the ground, looking at about even odds to hit a dog and slightly better than even odds to take out a dog if he hits. If he doesn't fall, he's still done for, since he needs to get three killing hits on dogs without falling or taking two hits.

So Ash the summoner solos the ogre. While working on a crossword puzzle.

I expect similar results from pretty much any enemy who doesn't fly, have an anti-melee aura, DR, an AOE of an unpredictable or switchable element, or speed combined with a ranged attack. At this level, the dogs kill pretty much any non-AOEing character class up to level 4. They eat all of CR 1 except the spider swarm and air elemental. CR 2 has no chance, except for the bat swarm, dire bat, rat swarm, vargouille, lycanthropes, and lantern archon. CR3 is about 50-50, with lots of things having dog immunity auras, plus the first of the Team Monster AOE abilities.

Level 5:

Ash the summoner isn't any less cowardly, but now he's more charismatic. He's got an 18 charisma, because he can finally afford a snazzy hat. He's also got Augment Summoning at this point, because well duh. He's since traded in the pound puppies for a pride of mountain lions, six in total, with a lantern archon riding herd on them. The lantern archon handler, summoned first, gives each of the cats the blessing of Celestia using Aid, because it can just spam it all day. Team Attack Cats have three members pounce, then the rest all crowd around and stand on the victim, clawing away (since they can rake grappled targets). If you seriously don't think this should work, then Ash summons wolverines and punches them all in the head before sending them into combat, doing d3 subdual damage. Whatever.

This time, Ash is sent to deal with a rampaging hill giant threatening the town. Hal the hill giant is a 10 foot tall redneck who just wrecked an outlying alehouse, emptied a pair of kegs, and is now fighting drunk and, even worse, singing at the top of his lungs. The rest of the party was knocked unconscious when the roof collapsed, but Ash was looking for a bush behind which to pass his share of ale when the roof came down. So Ash calls Team Attack Cats, all the while gritting his teeth through what passes for rhymes in Giant. (It's like a drunk German singing songs in reverse, through a megaphone.)

So, Team Attack Cat stalks towards the ruined inn, with the latern archon hanging back. Now, the latern archon is willing to give its life for the cause of good, especially since it's smart enough to know that getting killed while being summoned isn't really dying. So the lantern archon flies out ahead, and catches the eye of the hill giants. Before the cats get there, it's a standoff. The giant can't overcome its DR with enough damage to also get past Aid's temporary HP without a crit, and the archon can stand there spamming Aid on itself. Should the giant miss, the archon can zap it for a little bit of electrical damage, but it's not going to try to solo the giant because a crit will just knock it out outright. It's worth mentioning that seven archons probably could just solo the giant. As soon as the giant shows any sign of spotting the cats, however, the archon swoops in, making a ray attack from within melee range. The giant is given two opportunities for attacks of opportunity, here. The giant casually swats it, dimming the little light considerably, and gets a shock for his trouble. With DR accounted for, the lantern archon is down if 2d8+4 is greater than d8+15, which is highly unlikely. The lantern archon needs a 5+ to hit, and does a whopping d6 damage.

The cats, however, have taken advantage of this distraction, and half of the pride pounces in, claws extended, ready to extract a measure of vengeance on the hill giant for damaging their shiny toy. (Ever notice how annoyed your cat is when you turn off the laser pointer after playing with it?) Three smiting, pouncing celestial leopards. That's three attacks at +11, doing d6+8 damage each, and 12 attacks at +11, doing d3+8 each. Needing a 10+ to hit, that's six claws/rakes and a bite and a half. Let's favor the giant and call it one bite. That's 6d3+d6+56, plus the d6 from the archon. The other three circle the giant, preparing for a second wave of pounces, this time into flanking positions.

The giant has, on average, 10 HP remaining, and he could have far less. I doubt seriously that he can kill six panthers before taking 10 damage, especially with three panthers still waiting to pounce. That's a CR 7 hill giant down, in about the time it takes Ash to relieve himself.

I could do higher levels, as he works himself up on the path to becoming Pokemon Master. Do I need to?

[Gorbacz]

So ... cut down the amount of summons per day ? Or limit to 1 summoned critter at a time ? Any other ideas for a solution ? Also, remember that in order to make complicated tactical commands, the summoner must be able to communicate with the critters. Could be tricky with animals...

[A Man In Black]

Gorbacz wrote:

So ... cut down the amount of summons per day ? Or limit to 1 summoned critter at a time ?

Cut the duration, make it an in-combat-only thing, force him to space out the summons, move the ability to his spell pool instead... There are lots of possible solutions.

Also. My next cha-based caster in an actual game is so totally getting a Headband of Alluring Charisma that looks like Ash Ketchum's hat.

[Estragon]

A Man In Black wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

So ... cut down the amount of summons per day ? Or limit to 1 summoned critter at a time ?

Cut the duration, make it an in-combat-only thing, force him to space out the summons, move the ability to his spell pool instead...

There are lots of possible solutions.

Cut the duration, sure

space out summons, maybe
one critter at a time, maybe
in-combat only, no thank you.

Summons is what a summoner does. Should be able to summon a critter for non combat purposes.

Brian

[Gorbacz]

A Man In Black wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

So ... cut down the amount of summons per day ? Or limit to 1 summoned critter at a time ?

Cut the duration, make it an in-combat-only thing, force him to space out the summons, move the ability to his spell pool instead...

There are lots of possible solutions.

Cutting the duration - nah, it's cool. Nice shtick of being able to have the summon hang around longer than 10 seconds, great for creative uses.

in-combat-thing - smells of encounter powers...

space out - not sure what you mean, and takes a bullet in the head with flying critters

spell-pool - could do.

I would just limit the amount of total summoned critters (eidolon + "normal" summons + "summoner" summons) at once. Maybe Cha modifier. Dunno. :)

[Maeloke]

Ash the summoner is my kind of PC!

You've demonstrated your point well, and clearly the fights where one gets a long time to prepare enable all sorts of shenanigans with the summoner.

The fix for it seems pretty simple, though - just leave a cap on the number of summon instances he can have active at the same time - 2 at level one, then maybe opening it up to 3 at level 8, etc.

While its powerful to clutter up the battlefield, the summoner is also blowing much of his day's worth of magic on a single fight. If another combat threatens later on, poor Ash is... well, okay, hiding invisible behind his ridiculous beast of an eidolon. But the point stands, that's a *lot* of resources to have to kick out for the effect you're talking about.

[A Man In Black]

I'm brainstorming, so nitpick away, these ideas aren't necessarily good.

Gorbacz wrote:

I would just limit the amount of total summoned critters (eidolon + "normal" summons + "summoner" summons) at once. Maybe Cha modifier. Dunno. :)

Mm. Ash at level 5 still wrecks the hill giant with a lantern archon and three leopards, or with four lantern archons.

Quote:

While its powerful to clutter up the battlefield, the summoner is also blowing much of his day's worth of magic on a single fight. If another combat threatens later on, poor Sam is... well, okay, hiding invisible behind his ridiculous beast of an eidolon. But the point stands, that's a *lot* of resources to have to kick out for the effect you're talking about.

I renamed him in an edit, because, dude, Pokemon. Anyhoo.

Ash totally wrecks a BBEG-class encounter (CR+2), without expending a spell or risking a point of damage to himself, his eidolon, or the party. Granted, it's a 1/day thing (well, 2/day, since three leopards and the lantern archon ate the hill giant, the rest were kind of wasted), but it's not like he's standing in the back shooting his crossbow after doing that.

Ash is not cluttering the battlefield with Pokemon. He is tossing down half his Pokeballs and wrecking faces. The clutter is just a handy side effect.

[Gorbacz]

One (Sp) summon at a time then ? Summon Monster I is half bad, going nova with SM IX is much more funny ;)

[A Man In Black]

Gorbacz wrote:

One (Sp) summon at a time then ? Summon Monster I is half bad, going nova with SM IX is much more funny ;)

At level 17, Ash lays down his Pokeballs and tosses out 10 Ghaele Azatas or Trumpet Archons, each of which is a 13th-level cleric on top of being a total hardcase. 10 invisible 13th-level clerics isn't too bad, is it?

[Devil of Roses]

Heh, is Ash were playing like that in my group he'd be rolling up new characters at the end of every night, provided he wasn't laughed out of the group for being foolish enough to go Nova in the first place. Seriously, who actually plays like this? Is this considered a valid play testing scenarios and does it represent a valid problem? On a tactical level the game involves a lot of resource development and if Ash managed to survive to the final encounter of a game with me and still held onto all of his daily summons then damn, the guy deserves to trounce the BBEG in such a fashion.

Kind of reminds of me of some of the CoDzilla Cleric scenarios. I've maybe seen a cleric get more than two personal buffs off five times in the past three years. These things just don't happen, or happen rarely enough that arguments of something being over powered based on such scenarios should be considered invalid.

Though who knows, I may end up eating my words, I have a player who will be testing the Summoner starting Sunday. Though I don't think I've seen someone who liked going NOVA during a game since High School.

[A Man In Black]

Devil of Roses wrote:

Heh, is Ash were playing like that in my group he'd be rolling up new characters at the end of every night, provided he wasn't laughed out of the group for being foolish enough to go Nova in the first place. Seriously, who actually plays like this? Is this considered a valid play testing scenarios and does it represent a valid problem? On a tactical level the game involves a lot of resource development and if Ash managed to survive to the final encounter of a game with me and still held onto all of his daily summons then damn, the guy deserves to trounce the BBEG in such a fashion.

Quote:

I am aware that not every fight allows players to set up min/level spells. However, many do, and completely breaking the game whenever the summoner gets the ability to do so is not good design.

Remember, this is zero risk to Ash, his eidolon, or his party, on a BBEG-quality encounter. He's soloing encounters meant to challenge an entire party, without expending all or even most of his resources. He still has a pet that can nearly solo many same-CR enemies, he still has all of his spells to cast, and the rest of the party hasn't even joined the fight.

With the current power level of the eidolon, Ash stands in the back during the three CR 5 fights, directing his eidolon and tossing out the occasional buff. Then, when they go to rest at the inn, Hal the hill giant wrecks the place. But Ash totally has it in hand, despite the fact that for most classes (who aren't wizards or clerics, *sigh*) a hill giant is death with bad teeth.

It's like a bard novaing all of his bardic performance. Only instead of +1 to hit, it's leopards.

[kyrt-ryder]

Gorbacz wrote:

One (Sp) summon at a time then ? Summon Monster I is half bad, going nova with SM IX is much more funny ;)

Yeah, I agree with this suggestion. One Spell-like summon monster active at a given time. It lets them have fun with the non-combat possibilities and be capable of going into a fight with the summon out, but they can't throw down a whole army at once. (The one summon spell-like gives access to a healthy amount of support troops, but it's more of a small unit than an army lol, more could be added with actual castings but that's burning up combat actions.)

[Hayden]

Excuse me but...have you ever seen a wand of Summon monster and its nefarious effects?

This "problem" affects all the summoning system of 3.x. Given the time, a summoner can solo EVERY single encounter, and its combat turn can last forever, while other players have a cup of tea.

Nothing new under the sun...

The summoner is only the avatar of this concept. nothing more.

[A Man In Black]

Hayden wrote:

Excuse me but...have you ever seen a wand of Summon monster and its nefarious effects?

This "problem" affects all the summoning system of 3.x. Given the time, a summoner can solo EVERY single encounter, and its combat turn can last forever, while other players have a cup of tea.

Nothing new under the sun...

The summoner is only the avatar of this concept. nothing more.

Rounds/level. Specifically, five rounds in the case of your typical SM3 wand. The summons start blinking out very quickly, especially when you cast them from a wand.

Other casters can do it from their top-level slots, but they run out of those fast, lower-level summons aren't nearly as devastating, and it's going to be mid levels before you have the duration on your summons to really make things ridiculous.

[Gorbacz]

Also, most of the classes that can cast SM's have far better options when jumped upon instead of spending one full round conjuring a critter, risking concentration rolls etc.

It's the duration and standard action casting that makes Summoner go bananas in regards to summoning.

[Hayden]

Well, I see your point, but I also think that the summoner should be better than anyone in summoning critters.

The standard-action casting is imho a must have for a summoner.

I suggest to reduce the duration... When a summoner casts a conjuration, it's automatically affected by the "extend spell" feat. No minutes/level.

It should be enough.

[Devil of Roses]

I'm not sure where the idea that being able to prep for combat is over powered. Now sure, if I were silly enough to toss nothing but giant subtype creatures at my party, well, I'd be surprised if the PC's actually got in to melee with the things if permitted time to prep.

The fact is, though, not all encounters are created equal regardless of CR. You've been using melee oriented creatures against spell casters, the results will often be laughable if the caster is able to prepare. Ogres, I daresay, have been easy since 3rd edition came off the presses. I'm not sure what type of GM is running the show for Ash but the Eidolons haven't struck me as being impressive enough for their summoner to be casual throughout 3 CR 5 encounters plus a hill giant.

Again, I'll find out soon enough through playtesting but I still think your concerns are vastly overblown.

Then there's the easy way of balancing things. Villains are often prepared for the PC's and those are the encounters that really make them sweat. That and Ash he PC isn't the only summoner in existance, rest assured, he'll get a taste of his own medicine before the campaign is done. Not that he'd live long, a summoner is powerful, I'll grant them that, but that gives them the same target on their back that wizards and clerics get and he'll only have light armor to help him out.

But hey, you're talking to someone who thought nerfing spell focus in 3.0 was silly or never saw the mythical CoDzilla everyone was always whining about.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

The Ogre has a level one goblin cleric cast "Protection from Good" (or whatever other AL is applicable). Ogre crushes puny dogs and has dog-food. (HA! I MADE A FUNNY).

[hogarth]

On a side note, I think a creature has to be grappling (or pouncing, of course) in order to rake; I don't believe it's good enough to just have someone else grappling, but the rules are a bit contradictory.

"In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe." (Suggests that enemy being grappled is good enough.)

"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake[.]" (Suggests that creature must be grappling in order to rake.)

[wraithstrike]

Anytime you let players set up defenses and/or buff they are going to have an easier time, a lot easier in my experience. Is the summoner so effective when he "walks" into an encounter?

[Draeke Raefel]

wraithstrike wrote:

Anytime you let players set up defenses and/or buff they are going to have an easier time, a lot easier in my experience. Is the summoner so effective when he "walks" into an encounter?

Not quite, but it depends on how much he min/maxed his eidolon. they can get fairly ridiculous . As to the SLA I would just limit it to 1 casting of SLA being active at any given time. Then it makes it not much different than a wizard or sorcerer who likes to cast summons.

[Dragonborn3]

See in that scenario, I'd throw another Summoner at Ash. I think I shall call him Gary.

[Mr.Fishy]

After the Hill giant I guess the mage can just charm monster the next giant while the summoner scratches his butt. Both of your senerios are 1/day Hell a 5lvl sorcerer can lighting bolt/fireball how many times with a good Cha.

[Mr.Fishy]

SAY NO TO NERF

[Draeke Raefel]

Mr.Fishy wrote:

After the Hill giant I guess the mage can just charm monster the next giant while the summoner scratches his butt. Both of your senerios are 1/day Hell a 5lvl sorcerer can lighting bolt/fireball how many times with a good Cha.

None. 5th lvl sorcerers don't get 3rd level spells.

[QOShea]

Mr.Fishy wrote:

SAY NO TO NERF

But I like Nerf! Especially those neat NForce swords!

[A Man In Black]

Mr.Fishy wrote:

After the Hill giant I guess the mage can just charm monster the next giant while the summoner scratches his butt. Both of your senerios are 1/day Hell a 5lvl sorcerer can lighting bolt/fireball how many times with a good Cha.

Zero.

[Gorbacz]

A Man In Black wrote:

Mr.Fishy wrote:

After the Hill giant I guess the mage can just charm monster the next giant while the summoner scratches his butt. Both of your senerios are 1/day Hell a 5lvl sorcerer can lighting bolt/fireball how many times with a good Cha.

Zero.

Heh, good catch :)

[A Man In Black]

And one of my scenarios is 2/day if your starting charisma is better than 15. When you're allowed to stack up SL summons, you start to get Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit issues.

[lastknightleft]

Gorbacz wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Mr.Fishy wrote:

After the Hill giant I guess the mage can just charm monster the next giant while the summoner scratches his butt. Both of your senerios are 1/day Hell a 5lvl sorcerer can lighting bolt/fireball how many times with a good Cha.

Zero.

Heh, good catch :)

not really draeke pointed it out 4 hours before man in black did :)

But that link is hillarious and points out the main problem of a summoner class lol

[Kolokotroni]

My question is what could Bob the Conjurer (or better yet Treamonk the Conjurer) do with the same amount of prep time? Given you are talking about a once a day NOVA, the summoner can summon up alot of the same beasties but also lay down some vicious battlefield control spells or just drop the enemies with a save or lose.

Bob can drop a grease spell in front of the ogre, the dc for bob's spell even with the 15 stat you suggest is 13. An ogre has a +0 reflex save. Mr Ogre has a very good chance of being on his behind while his fighter buddy stabs him sensless. And if MR ogre actually gets up, well Bob the conjurer has a sleep spell waiting for him to enjoy. All the while Bobs friend Mark the ranger is shooting the helpless ogre in the face. Or a nice color spray to blind him and stun him. Similar result.

The fact that spellcasters are very powerful if they have time to prepare for a fight is not unique to mister summoner.

And the whole thing is pretty moot. If a dm lets the party have one fight a day, they will crush level appropriate encounters every time. Full hp, all your spells, all your smites, the challenge will be small. That is why we have the whole 3-4 fights per day recomendation. In which your buddy ash cannot do this.

[A Man In Black]

Devil of Roses wrote:

The fact is, though, not all encounters are created equal regardless of CR. You've been using melee oriented creatures against spell casters, the results will often be laughable if the caster is able to prepare. Ogres, I daresay, have been easy since 3rd edition came off the presses. I'm not sure what type of GM is running the show for Ash but the Eidolons haven't struck me as being impressive enough for their summoner to be casual throughout 3 CR 5 encounters plus a hill giant.

I realize that not all encounters are created equal, but like I said, a summoner nova, at level 1, wrecks almost all of the CR 1 and 2 encounters (including classed humanoids who aren't clerics, wizards, or sorcerers) and about half of the CR 3 encounters. Would you rather I put the pound puppies up against an ankheg, a giant scorpion, a lion, a wight, what? Because they still eat half of CR 3 and that's unreasonable as a fire-and-forget class ability.

As for the eidolon, let's look at a level 5 eidolon.

A completely non-optimized eidolon from one of the other threads:

Spoiler:

Eidolon
Base Form Biped
Size Medium
Senses darkvision 60ft, link; Perception +8

HP: 47 [5d10 (27) +15 (con) +5 (toughness)]
AC: 20, touch 12, ff 18 (+2 Dex, +8 natural armor)
Fort +7, Reflex +3, Will +4
Defensive abilities evasion

Ability Scores
Str 18, 16 base, +2 level
Dex 14, 12 base, +2 level
Con 16, 13 base, +1 ability score, +2 evolution
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11

Speed 30ft, fly 30ft (good)
Melee 2 claws +10 (1d6+4) and 2 wing buffets +4 (1d4+2)

Skills
Fly +10
Knowledge (planes) +9
Linguistics (Auran) -1
Perception +8
Survival +7
Additional Class Skills: Survival, 3 others

BAB +5, CMB +9, CMD 21
Languages Auran

Evolutions
(free) claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
(8) ability increase (Con), improved damage (claws), improved natural armor, fly, magic attacks, wing buffet

Feats
Skill Focus [Knowledge(planes)]
Toughness
Weapon Focus (claws)

That's not even remotely optimized (Skill Focus [Knowledge (Planes)]!) and has AC enough to be hit on an ~11+ by most CR 5 foes, has enough HP to survive a dire lion's pounce, and hits most level-appropriate foes for 5+ to 7+ for decent but not amazing damage.

The summoner just leans on that for three encounters a day, using his spells to buff it and back it up, then 1/ or 2/day he goes into Angel Summoner mode and wins the fight solo.

That's not good design.

Quote:

My question is what could Bob the Conjurer (or better yet Treamonk the Conjurer) do with the same amount of prep time? Given you are talking about a once a day NOVA, the summoner can summon up alot of the same beasties but also lay down some vicious battlefield control spells or just drop the enemies with a save or lose.

Bob can drop a grease spell in front of the ogre, the dc for bob's spell even with the 15 stat you suggest is 13. An ogre has a +0 reflex save. Mr Ogre has a very good chance of being on his behind while his fighter buddy stabs him sensless. And if MR ogre actually gets up, well Bob the conjurer has a sleep spell waiting for him to enjoy. All the while Bobs friend Mark the ranger is shooting the helpless ogre in the face. Or a nice color spray to blind him and stun him. Similar result.

The fact that spellcasters are very powerful if they have time to prepare for a fight is not unique to mister summoner.

And the whole thing is pretty moot. If a dm lets the party have one fight a day, they will crush level appropriate encounters every time. Full hp, all your spells, all your smites, the challenge will be small. That is why we have the whole 3-4 fights per day recomendation. In which your buddy ash cannot do this.

Fair point, but the conjurer can't do this due to shorter duration until much higher levels, and he's completely gimping himself by novaing all his top-level slots. And while you're right that casters can accomplish silly things when they're allowed to prep up, they're still risking their faces at least a little bit, and they're still burning out of their main pool of resources. Also, they need to set up some sort of planned resources, be they spells known, spells prepped, or scrolls/wands/staves, in order to be able to do that.

On the other hand, the summoner is wrecking the game with prep from level 1, without having to ever learn prep-time-only garbage like Blur or whatnot.

As for the ogre and the fighter and the wizard, the wizard knocks the ogre prone, yes. Then the fighter runs in, and risks falling down on the way. Even if he doesn't fall, he's still risking a +3 attack (and he probably has a 16 AC at level 1 at best) that may one-shot him (2d8+7 versus 14 HP on a good day). Ogres are pushovers at level 3, but they do risk one-shotting people at level 1.

Plus, Ash doesn't stop being able to do his job because he blows all his SL summons. He stops being interesting to play, since he just sends the eidolon in to attack, casts one buff, then fires his crossbow, but he isn't ineffective because of the effectiveness of the eidolon.

[Xuttah]

@ A Man In Black: I really enjoyed your report. Thanks for making it interesting to read!

@ Kolokotroni: The issue with a conjurer is that his summons does not last as long (1/10 the duration plus half level in rounds), so you don't have access to the same amount of complicated strategy or number of rounds of combat as the summoner can get out of his minions.

[Heladriell]

Kolokotroni wrote:

The fact that spellcasters are very powerful if they have time to prepare for a fight is not unique to mister summoner.

Wisest thing I've read today.

[Joshua J. Frost]

1. How does a level 1 summoner cast rope trick?

2. Stop using the word "nerf." These are playtest classes and may be altered between their playtest phase and their final phase. Nerfing happens when a class was released as a final class and something changes to lower the power level--none of these classes are final. Things are going to change.

[Sebastian]

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

1. How does a level 1 summoner cast rope trick?

I would say it's a rhetorical flourish intended only to avoid arguments that miss the point of the scenario A Man in Black has established to illustrate his thoughts. Otherwise, you see responses like "why doesn't the ogre just attack the summoner with the javelin" that avoid the basic thrust of the point: the minute/level duration can create situations where the summoner can overcome an encounter without personal risk.

Kinda like your response, really.

[Zurai]

Sebastian wrote:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

1. How does a level 1 summoner cast rope trick?

I would say it's a rhetorical flourish intended only to avoid arguments that miss the point of the scenario A Man in Black has established to illustrate his thoughts. Otherwise, you see responses like "why doesn't the ogre just attack the summoner with the javelin" that avoid the basic thrust of the point: the minute/level duration can create situations where the summoner can fight without personal risk.

Kinda like your response, really.

Uh, I'd say "why doesn't the ogre just throw the javelin at the summoner" perfectly illustrates that a level 1 summoner cannot do this without personal risk.

Furthermore, celestial creatures are no longer automatically Int 3, nor do they automatically know any languages, so the only way to direct a pack of summoned celestial dogs is to use Handle Animal as a standard action to push one of them, and hope the rest follow suit. He can't just open the door to the Ogre's 20'x20' room that it is unable to escape from and tell the dogs to go inside and kill the Ogre.

[Sebastian]

Zurai wrote:

Uh, I'd say "why doesn't the ogre just throw the javelin at the summoner" perfectly illustrates that a level 1 summoner cannot do this without personal risk.

Okay, then he closes a door that is close at hand and has a friend cast arcane lock on it.

Or, he has a scroll of rope trick.

Or, you can just look at the example where he is capable of casting that spell and the same issue arises.

Zurai wrote:

Furthermore, celestial creatures are no longer automatically Int 3, nor do they automatically know any languages, so the only way to direct a pack of summoned celestial dogs is to use Handle Animal as a standard action to push one of them, and hope the rest follow suit. He can't just open the door to the Ogre's 20'x20' room that it is unable to escape from and tell the dogs to go inside and kill the Ogre.

If that's how summoning is intended to operate, then it should probably be spelled out a little more explicitly. Maybe in a sidebar to make it clear that it's a bit of DMing advice for handling summoners. Every game I've been in has allowed the summoner to run his summons and if lowering their intelligence is intended to disallow that tactic (or require that the summoner expend actions to control his summons) that should be stated up front in the class description. It's as good a fix as any, but it's neither obvious nor unambiguous from the text.

[Starbuck_II]

Could just let it last 1 minute and 1 minute more every 10 levels. So lasts 3 minutes are level 20 (making them better that summons).

[Zurai]

Sebastian wrote:

it's neither obvious nor unambiguous from the text.

Sure it is, if you don't assume it works exactly like 3.5 did.

The various summon spells say that you can order your summoned monsters around if you have a common language, otherwise they attack the nearest hostile creature. Celestial animals are still animals and thus unable to communicate via language, which means you cannot give celestial animals specific orders via language. The Handle Animal skill gives you a way to force a friendly animal to do what you want as a standard action (with a skill check, which isn't going to be an auto-success at level 1). Alternately, you could have speak with animals active (though Summoners don't get that spell).

It's all perfectly explicit in the rules; you just assumed there were no changes from 3.5.

[Sebastian]

Zurai wrote:

Sure it is, if you don't assume it works exactly like 3.5 did.

Shrug. I'm not alone in that assumption. There's an entire thread devoted to it in which some of the Paizo designers even comment that you should basically play summoned monsters the same as you did in 3.5. And, as discussed in that thread, there is still a lot of ambiguity in what the summoned monsters do and who controls them. The way it's written, you could make the argument that the summoned monsters are under the DM's control. That's a fine rule, but it puts a heavy administrative burden on the DM.

So, even though the rules have changed, it's not entirely clear what that means. It sounds like the intent is to give the DM some soft power to overrule possible abusive situations like those described in the OP. I think that's a good way of handling it, but I also think that should be explicitly spelled out for both the DM and the player to avoid confusion at the table because (1) it is different from 3.5 and (2) it is something of a squishy rule that will vary from table to table. A sidebar seems like the optimal tool for that purpose, and it should include a reference to the various DCs for the Handle Animal check to get the animals to do what you want.

All that being said, I'm not convinced this does all that much to stop the scenario presented in the OP. I'd probably like to see the summoner use a move action or be within a certain range to allow for the extended duration. I think that would do a better job of solving the potential issue than relying on DM soft power. I have a fairly strong preference for bright line tests that are easy to administer.

[King of Vrock]

These situations are pretty bogus IMO. How often are you going to run into a single monster encounter? In my games it's a rarity. Now I'm used to having an oversized party, usually mine averages six. However even in smaller groups it's not uncommon to have a cohort, animal companion, autonomous spell (spiritual weapon, mage sword, flame sphere, etc) or summoned creatures. You can't realistically use single monster encounters to demonstrate your hypothesis MIB...

Take a level appropriate adventure and run 4 of it's encounters or make 4 seperate encoutners of your own, preferably not all single monster and see if the Summoner's SLA pets can destroy the Encoutner mechanic, because that's what it's based around.

--Jingle Bell Vrock

[Sebastian]

King of Vrock wrote:

Take a level appropriate adventure and run 4 of it's encounters or make 4 seperate encoutners of your own, preferably not all single monster and see if the Summoner's SLA pets can destroy the Encoutner mechanic, because that's what it's based around.

Or try using the tactic in the first few encounters in, say, Curse of the Kobold King or some other adventure. I completely agree that a playtest is definitely going to have more value than a theoretical exercise. It may well be that this isn't a problem because stashing the summoner someplace safe is difficult in a real encounter.

[Bill Bisco]

King of Vrock wrote:

These situations are pretty bogus IMO. How often are you going to run into a single monster encounter? In my games it's a rarity. Now I'm used to having an oversized party, usually mine averages six. However even in smaller groups it's not uncommon to have a cohort, animal companion, autonomous spell (spiritual weapon, mage sword, flame sphere, etc) or summoned creatures. You can't realistically use single monster encounters to demonstrate your hypothesis MIB...

Take a level appropriate adventure and run 4 of it's encounters or make 4 seperate encoutners of your own, preferably not all single monster and see if the Summoner's SLA pets can destroy the Encoutner mechanic, because that's what it's based around.

--Jingle Bell Vrock

Unnecessary. The party sleeps to regain spells and daily powers as soon as 1 combat is over.

And to a previous poster: Nerfing is nerfing. If they nerf the playtest class, they nerf the class.

[Zurai]

Bill Bisco wrote:

Unnecessary. The party sleeps to regain spells and daily powers as soon as 1 combat is over.

This isn't a video game, nor is it 4E. Sleeping for 8 hours immediately after using a per day ability does not recover said ability.

[Joshua J. Frost]

Sebastian wrote:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

1. How does a level 1 summoner cast rope trick?

I would say it's a rhetorical flourish intended only to avoid arguments that miss the point of the scenario A Man in Black has established to illustrate his thoughts. Otherwise, you see responses like "why doesn't the ogre just attack the summoner with the javelin" that avoid the basic thrust of the point: the minute/level duration can create situations where the summoner can overcome an encounter without personal risk.

Kinda like your response, really.

I would argue, completely outside the "does the summoner need work" discussion, that there are several already established classes that can do much the same thing (overcome an encounter without personal risk), just not with summoned creatures. I'm not attempting to derail his scenario that he's outlined--instead, I'm trying to assert that his scenario probably wouldn't occur at level 1 (or even level 2) because it's much harder for the summoner to simply "not be there" when the summons are fighting. Yes, he could summon a bunch of dogs and send them roving ahead in the dungeon to fight stuff, but he wouldn't be able to control them.

At later levels (assuming he has a wizard along who can cast rope trick) this might become an issue, but I'm curious in what gaming group would the players be okay with one character summoning a bunch of stuff and hiding while that character gets to play and everyone gets to watch? This is a logical hypothetical for a scenario, to be sure, but not a realistic expectation of how the summoner would work in an actual play environment.

Anyway, this is gamer me talking, and not Events Manager me talking. It's clear that the playtest version of each class needs some work here and there. I'm certainly not going to argue that (and neither would Jason, really).

[Joshua J. Frost]

Sebastian wrote:

Maybe in a sidebar ... DMing advice for handling summoners.

Now that's a good idea.

[Bill Bisco]

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

1. How does a level 1 summoner cast rope trick?

I would say it's a rhetorical flourish intended only to avoid arguments that miss the point of the scenario A Man in Black has established to illustrate his thoughts. Otherwise, you see responses like "why doesn't the ogre just attack the summoner with the javelin" that avoid the basic thrust of the point: the minute/level duration can create situations where the summoner can overcome an encounter without personal risk.

Kinda like your response, really.

I would argue, completely outside the "does the summoner need work" discussion, that there are several already established classes that can do much the same thing (overcome an encounter without personal risk), just not with summoned creatures. I'm not attempting to derail his scenario that he's outlined--instead, I'm trying to assert that his scenario probably wouldn't occur at level 1 (or even level 2) because it's much harder for the summoner to simply "not be there" when the summons are fighting. Yes, he could summon a bunch of dogs and send them roving ahead in the dungeon to fight stuff, but he wouldn't be able to control them.

At later levels (assuming he has a wizard along who can cast rope trick) this might become an issue, but I'm curious in what gaming group would the players be okay with one character summoning a bunch of stuff and hiding while that character gets to play and everyone gets to watch? This is a logical hypothetical for a scenario, to be sure, but not a realistic expectation of how the summoner would work in an actual play environment.

Anyway, this is gamer me talking, and not Events Manager me talking. It's clear that the playtest version of each class needs some work here and there. I'm certainly not going to argue that (and neither would Jason, really).

They'll sleep for a day then :)