Please, no unique spell lists!

[Scottbert]

So this thread seems to consist of

"Please, don't limit noncore casters to just one list of spells set in stone for all time!"

"I think it's a great idea for them to have their own spell list, that like the bard's crosses others and lets them have spells at levels appropriate for their specialty"

In other words, we have

"I hate oranges! Please don't get citrus flavor in my splatbook!"

"Apples are great, please give me apple flavor!"

--

To people who espouse the second view:

We're not complaining about the idea of a class that has a list better suited to it than just using wizard or cleric spells or whatever.

We're complaining about the fact that wizard, cleric, bard, and the other core casters can use splatbook material (3.5 is the current concern, I should hope Paizo wouldn't abandon its unique casters like WotC did but only time will tell) and these classes, by virtue of not having access to those lists, have no way to use splatbook spells that are thematically appropriate.

The only way currently is for a GM to think long and hard about whether a noncore spell is appropriate for the class, and then if so what level it should be available at. Yes, sometimes this will be easy -- Summon Undead? Sure, summoners are the king of summoning, throw it in (actually that might be more suitable as an option for their per-day summoning ability...)! Unluck? That sounds like a Witch hex, they can have it! Sometimes it won't be so clear, however.

I'm not saying that you should say something like 'Just let the Summoner use all sor/wiz spells' or even 'let the summoner use all conjuration spells from the sorcerer/wizard list' (The orbs seem to pretty clearly be outside their specialty, for instance!).

We just want, at least, some guidelines to give the GM support in this area. While hard and fast rules for determining what spells are appropriate would be nice for players, this is probably not really possible just because spells can do anything, and some possibility will be overlooked, or be too vague to state clearly. A beautiful thing about the Bestiary is how you provided the base statistics the designers worked with, to help people design future monsters. How about listing the guidelines the designers used when picking spells?

Edit:
Looks like the designer shares this view! Summoner and Witch Playtest, post #21

[Kolokotroni]

Zurai wrote:

You seriously cannot see the difference between these two bits of text?:

1) At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, you may add one spell to your spells known that meets XYZ restrictions. Any added spell must meet with DM approval.

2) <this space intentionally left blank>

What if it instead says

2) "Here are guidelines for adding new spells to the witch's list from 3rd party sources[Guidelines]. You should seek out your DM's approval for such material.

They have already said they are likely to include such a sidebar. Explicitely adding spells to the summoner or witch's spells KNOWN and not to their spell LIST is a very very different animal. Adding spells known is a power boost to the class, and requires balancing. Adding to the spell list is already to the domain of DM approval, so if they provide guidelines there isnt more to be done there.

Edit for Emphasis:

James Jacobs wrote:

I believe Jason mentioned this elsewhere, but I'm 99% sure that all of the new base classes with unique spell lists will all come with sidebars that talk about those spell lists and give advice on when you as the GM should expand those spell lists when a new product comes out that reveals new spells.

It's certainly something we're thinking about and we'll do SOMETHING to account for the fact that folks will want to expand those spell lists.

[Exiled Prince]

Or, better yet, "Witches may learn any spell from the Witch list. In addition, at 2nd level and every even level thereafter, she may learn one Abjuration spell, Evocation spell dealing with lightning or weather, Enchantment spell, or Necromancy (curse) spell from any class's spell list, provided the spell is of a level one lower than the highest level she can cast".

I think this is the best way. I've learned from the warlock(which was my favorite class) that there was nothing worst than not being able to expand a class. One of the supposed purpose of Pathfinder is that you can use all of your 3.5 books with little problem.

[Dark Psion]

I have to say if there is a unique spell list, there will need to be an explanation on what can and cannot be added and how. For example, I would allow the "Arcane Eye" spell, but in the Summoner's version, he summons a Tiny creature to serve as the scry sensor. The spell functions exactly the same, but now fits the theme of the Summoner.

One question I do have about his spell list, does he have to take the Summon Monster spells? Since he gets all of them as a Spell-like ability, it would make more sense to automatically add the to his list at the correct level. It seems like a "spell tax" to an already limited choice to make a Summoner have to choose "Summon Monster" spells.

I would also add the "Summon Nature's Ally" spells to his list, if he is going to be a Summoner, he should be able to summon anything.

[Aestolia]

Dark Psion wrote:

One question I do have about his spell list, does he have to take the Summon Monster spells? Since he gets all of them as a Spell-like ability, it would make more sense to automatically add the to his list at the correct level. It seems like a "spell tax" to an already limited choice to make a Summoner have to choose "Summon Monster" spells.

Not necessarily, given the fact that (s)he does have it as a SLA I view it as something I can suppliment with my spell selection. This was a bit easier to justify / manage when the longer duration was present, but is still how I do run the summoner. having 6/day (minimum you'd have to have to have access to all spell levels 16Cha) is in most cases plenty.

Quote:

I would also add the "Summon Nature's Ally" spells to his list, if he is going to be a Summoner, he should be able to summon anything.

The fluff does say that the summoner is most skilled at "beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes" too me this kind of says they specialize more with outsiders / extraplanar creaturs, not just all summons. Otherwise you could argue summon undead as well.

[LazarX]

Mortagon wrote:

What about the bard? He has a similar spell-casting progression, yet his spell list gets expanded upon quite often. Both classes have an in-built way of limiting this by the fact that they have a limited number of spells known. While i agree that the summoner isn't a focused spell-caster I still think he should have his spell list expanded upon as much as the bard have.

That's a bit disenguous, the Bard list gets expanded often because developers like writing stuff for Bards. But even that is not an open-ended expansion. The Bard stuff that gets added is very specifically Bard related... not just any "Conjuration, Charm, whatever." If the Bard were open to any Sorcer/Wizard spell, or "all spells of School X", not only does it rapidly start to dilute the unique character of the Bard you get into balance issues as well.

If you can't accept the fact that a thematicly focused class can be of the kind that needs to be restricted to a thematically tight spell list, you're either a lazy GM who hates to adjudicate or a munchkin player who can't accept the fact that acquisition to the spell/item/toy you want might have to go through GM approval, and should probably stick to dealing with the basic spellcasting classes.

By the way even if you do play a wizard or cleric, or druid in any game, it's a masochistic GM who simply gives you carte blanche access to any spell material by anyone just because in theory these classes have "access to any spell of thier class type."

[Snorter]

Razz wrote:

If someone actually ruled that in their games with the Summoner and Witch, they better be prepared to add about 10 new special abilities to that class to compensate for the massive lack of new spells the Cleric and Wizard are fattening up on with the release of any new product with spells. Last I checked, a spellcaster's main abilities ARE his spells, and new spells expanding that list is no different than a Fighter now having an extra 50 feats in a book to choose from.

It's fair to say, it's even better, since the Fighter chooses his feats and is stuck with them for his whole career, whereas the players of the Wizard, Cleric and Druid have the hindsight, and freedom to rewrite their PC from scratch every morning.

[moon glum]

Razz wrote:

While I thoroughly enjoyed the Summoner and am kinda "meh" on the Witch class, I have to say one thing I truly dislike about them.

They have their own spell lists.
...

Although I do not like unique spell lists, I can see why the witch's list was hard to make. Witches have a wide variety of interpretations in folklore, myth and pop culture. The pathfinder witch list has several spells that are not obviously witchy, and is missing other very witch spells.

For example, witches really should have the following on their lists: farie fire, circle of death, telekinesis (think Carrie from Steven King).

So here is my suggestion on a change to the witch. I think that it makes a witch a unique spell casting class that is powerful, but not overpowered.

Let witches familiars learn any spell from the Cleric, Druid, or Sorcerer/Wizard lists. However, a familiar can only know 9 spells of any given level. There could be a feat that lets a familiar learn 13 spells of a given level, and another feat that lets a familiar learn the spells of a given Cleric Domain.

Also, familiars would automatically know their 'familiar spells'. Note that someone has to write up the 'familiar spells' for the improved familiars.

The shtick with these witches is not that they have a particular spell list, but rather that they get access to a wide variety of magical knowledge through their familiars, but are in turn limited by their familiars magical orientation and perspective.

Note also that witch magic still retains some of the flavor of the 'classic witch' through their hexes.

[Shinmizu]

Aestolia wrote:

The fluff does say that the summoner is most skilled at "beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes" too me this kind of says they specialize more with outsiders / extraplanar creaturs, not just all summons.

I'm looking forward to summoning Happy Fun Ball from Leng.