|
Over here Jason started a thread for posting sample eidolons, but asked to have feed back left out of the thread. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would like feedback, so feel free to comment on them here.
Someone made an eidolon that used the Spell evolution to cast a quickened summon monster spell. The quickened part isn't really my concern. The question I have is that, as far as I knew, summoned creatures could not use their summon abilities. Does that extend to using summon monster spells?
Thanks for reminding me of that; I meant to comment on it, but it was before this thread existed and I didn't want to clutter up the sample thread.
You're correct, the text for the Eidolon ability states that it functions "as a summoned creature", which means it is unable to summon any monsters of its own.
One of the sample Eidolon choices was for a scout Eidolon.
I was wondering how well that would really work.
With the rules stating that your Eidolon loses 50% of its hit point total the first time it moves beyond 100'. You also don't recover those hit points when the Eidolon gets back within 100'. All you recover is the potential to heal the Eidolon back to its maximum.
Any party healer is not going to be happy that the Summoner is asking for healing for their pet every few minutes because they sent it off on a scouting run.
It gets a bit better when the summoner gets to level 11 and can get fast heal but still people will usually moan why they have to wait for the pet to get better when it returns from scouting.
I would further note that the next drop in hit points (25% of maximum) is at 1,000' which is just a fifth of a mile and the maximum range for the eidololon is 10,000' which is just two miles.
The Eidolon as a scout has a limited range.
I would point out that the 100' range limit on the Eidolon is something that will likely get exploited by GMs in scenarios. The quadraped base form with a move of 40' can almost exceed that range limit with a single charge. A wise GM with a few archers hanging back in a little larger scale encounters could harshly remind a summoner of the limits of their pet when it goes over the 100' line.
|
|
One of the sample Eidolon choices was for a scout Eidolon.
I was wondering how well that would really work.
With the rules stating that your Eidolon loses 50% of its hit point total the first time it moves beyond 100'. You also don't recover those hit points when the Eidolon gets back within 100'. All you recover is the potential to heal the Eidolon back to its maximum.
Any party healer is not going to be happy that the Summoner is asking for healing for their pet every few minutes because they sent it off on a scouting run.
It gets a bit better when the summoner gets to level 11 and can get fast heal but still people will usually moan why they have to wait for the pet to get better when it returns from scouting.
I would further note that the next drop in hit points (25% of maximum) is at 1,000' which is just a fifth of a mile and the maximum range for the eidololon is 10,000' which is just two miles.
The Eidolon as a scout has a limited range.
I would point out that the 100' range limit on the Eidolon is something that will likely get exploited by GMs in scenarios. The quadraped base form with a move of 40' can almost exceed that range limit with a single charge. A wise GM with a few archers hanging back in a little larger scale encounters could harshly remind a summoner of the limits of their pet when it goes over the 100' line.
100 ft is a fairly good scout distance. in a dungeon. Most of the time that will be over normal line of sight. And the summoner can use the Eidolon's senses to see exactly what he is seeing. Very handy.
100 ft is a fairly good scout distance. in a dungeon. Most of the time that will be over normal line of sight. And the summoner can use the Eidolon's senses to see exactly what he is seeing. Very handy.skip
I think most people in D&D games don't realize how short a distance 100' in reality really is.
I live on a property that is 80' wide and 200' deep. I couldn't let the the Eidolon even explore the full property without risking it getting out beyond the 100' limit.
The city that I live in has a minimum 40' wide frontage rule. That means that you could not let the Eidolon even be 3 property lengths in the cramped WWII style small property homes distance ahead of you.
This is less then the first increment of bow range for many bows and crossbows.
Within a 'dungeon' that is a made up set of linked spots then you are possibly going to have some utility but if the designer was basing on more real spulunking caves then some of these spaces are huge and the drop just to get to the cave is often several times a 100'.
Or think of a few buildings like a typical school, hotel, apartment building, or even a sailing ship (tall ship) and you will begin to realize how limited 100'.
I would like to note that I ran my eidolon from the Sample Eidolons post, at 20th level, versus a Balor, and my eidolon was able to take him down in 1 round and 2 attacks. Later on I'm going to start removing more and more of his magical equipment to see how he can still fare, and if he can still take on the Balor with equal equipment (+1 swords) then I can clearly and concisely state that eidolons are my min-max fantasy.
|
|
100 ft is a fairly good scout distance. in a dungeon. Most of the time that will be over normal line of sight. And the summoner can use the Eidolon's senses to see exactly what he is seeing. Very handy.skip
I think most people in D&D games don't realize how short a distance 100' in reality really is.
I live on a property that is 80' wide and 200' deep. I couldn't let the the Eidolon even explore the full property without risking it getting out beyond the 100' limit.
The city that I live in has a minimum 40' wide frontage rule. That means that you could not let the Eidolon even be 3 property lengths in the cramped WWII style small property homes distance ahead of you.
This is less then the first increment of bow range for many bows and crossbows.
Within a 'dungeon' that is a made up set of linked spots then you are possibly going to have some utility but if the designer was basing on more real spulunking caves then some of these spaces are huge and the drop just to get to the cave is often several times a 100'.
Or think of a few buildings like a typical school, hotel, apartment building, or even a sailing ship (tall ship) and you will begin to realize how limited 100'.
I realize how short the distance is. Which is why I specifically mentioned dungeons. While he can't travel to far away, he can definitely scout around corners and into rooms. Both are extremely useful.
Okay, short range scouting is possible role.
----------------------
Seperate issue.
I notice a large number of the sample eidolons are going for the bipedal with armour and weapons configurations.
I also notice that a large number are doing this for the added bonus of being able to use magical armour and weapons to crank up the abilities of the Eidolon.
This suggests to me that there is likely a problem here in either the cost of the ability (evolution cost) or the balance of choice (rules balance which might prohibit the usage of magical weapons and armour with an Eidolon).
Now, an Eidolon already has access to learn how to use armour and weapons through the choice of feats. The provision of the ability at the cost of 1 to 2 points of evolution compared to other choices might be a bit too cheap.
So suggestions on solutions?
I have;
A> Increase the evolution cost for these abilities.
B> Possibly with weapon training having the cost need to be charged for each limb that the creature learns to hold a weapon (or possibly pair of limbs).
C> Remove these choices from the Evolution Table but point out that Eidolons can still get weapon usage feats and armour usage feats (feats are much bigger expenditure of a limited resource then a evolution point cost and more permanent forcing a bigger choice on a player. It also balances against a player not choosing weapons but going up a different feat tree using natural armour and weapons).
D> Add a rule that states that the magical summoned nature of Eidolons interferes with their using magical items (though if you went to this extreme then you would likely need to put some sort of additional anti-magical buffing prohibition on Eidolons to out law the three or four players that cast buff magics on the Eidolon before each battle ~ though they could do the same to a barbarian, fighter, or animal companion and be legal making this a fairly strange and one sided penalty to summoners).
Discussion or thoughts (either on the option of weapons and armour or the large number of bipedal weapon and armour wearing eidolons?)
|
|
Can someone explain how hit points are calculated from the hit dice? Here is the definition from the Bestiary.
hp: The creature’s hit points, followed by its Hit Dice
(including modifiers from Constitution, favored class
levels, creature type modifiers, and the Toughness feat).
Creatures with PC class levels receive maximum hit points
for their first HD, but all other HD rolls are assumed to
be average. Fast healing and regeneration values, if any,
follow the creature’s HD.
The eidolon doesn't have a PC class, so wouldn't all of their HD values be 5 (before constitution and Toughness modifiers)?
I looked at several of the example eidolons to try to figure out the algorithm, but I can't quite figure it out.
Thanks in advance for helping one of the new guys :)
One fault with the Garuda eidolon. Spell like abilities are limited to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. So no cure spells for you! :)
Are you referring to the Garuda concept in general, or mine in particular? Mine doesn't have any sort of healing abilities.
Can someone explain how hit points are calculated from the hit dice? Here is the definition from the Bestiary.
...snip...
I looked at several of the example eidolons to try to figure out the algorithm, but I can't quite figure it out.
I think some people are probably calculating wrong. Some people probably rolled hp. It also may depend on if it was created for a specific game that had non-standard hp rules. Also, "average" hp is often (usually?) calculated over the total hit dice... so 5.5 hp per level, rounded down.
Can someone explain how hit points are calculated from the hit dice? Here is the definition from the Bestiary.
hp: The creature’s hit points, followed by its Hit Dice
(including modifiers from Constitution, favored class
levels, creature type modifiers, and the Toughness feat).
Creatures with PC class levels receive maximum hit points
for their first HD, but all other HD rolls are assumed to
be average. Fast healing and regeneration values, if any,
follow the creature’s HD.The eidolon doesn't have a PC class, so wouldn't all of their HD values be 5 (before constitution and Toughness modifiers)?
I looked at several of the example eidolons to try to figure out the algorithm, but I can't quite figure it out.
Thanks in advance for helping one of the new guys :)
I can't speak for anyone else, but I used the average of 1d10, which is 5.5. 10d10+50 yields 105 hp, for example.
|
I'm not going to stat it up, but it's a pretty easy creature to make,
Bulbasaur
Base form: Quadraped
Evolutions: 2 tentacles, reach on both tentacles, large size, huge size, grab (tentacles), Pull (tentacles), poison (extra point for con poison)
The only problem I have with this is that it should be small or the name changed to Venasuar.
Spell like abilities are limited to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
Looks like that was Angemon, posted by Dragonborn3. I agree with you that Cure Light wouldn't be legal.
Tempted to see how far I can trick out the 'imaginary friend' concept.
So far I've got it stat'd out to 5 HD (Level 5 Summoner).
|
|
I can't speak for anyone else, but I used the average of 1d10, which is 5.5. 10d10+50 yields 105 hp, for example.Can someone explain how hit points are calculated from the hit dice? Here is the definition from the Bestiary.
hp: The creature’s hit points, followed by its Hit Dice
(including modifiers from Constitution, favored class
levels, creature type modifiers, and the Toughness feat).
Creatures with PC class levels receive maximum hit points
for their first HD, but all other HD rolls are assumed to
be average. Fast healing and regeneration values, if any,
follow the creature’s HD.The eidolon doesn't have a PC class, so wouldn't all of their HD values be 5 (before constitution and Toughness modifiers)?
I looked at several of the example eidolons to try to figure out the algorithm, but I can't quite figure it out.
Thanks in advance for helping one of the new guys :)
I admit to rolling mine up, because this is how we have always handled familiars and animal companions in my group.
|
|
Too be fair, I cannot see an 'Angel' not being able to heal with at least a little magicSpell like abilities are limited to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.Looks like that was Angemon, posted by Dragonborn3. I agree with you that Cure Light wouldn't be legal.
Same here. Maybe we could convice Jason to open up the Bard list as well.
|
|
Same here. Maybe we could convice Jason to open up the Bard list as well.Too be fair, I cannot see an 'Angel' not being able to heal with at least a little magicSpell like abilities are limited to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.Looks like that was Angemon, posted by Dragonborn3. I agree with you that Cure Light wouldn't be legal.
Or at least give a choice between the two, but never both. If you grab a bard spell, you'll never get to choose a sorcerer/wizard spell.
Any thoughts on Haylie the hallucinigenia?
I've noticed people taking reach ( tentacle ) and then applying that to every tentacle attack. It seems pretty obvious from the reach evolution wording that only 1 attack gets the reach benefit, not one form of attack. I.e. you have to pay for reach for each tentacle.
Correct me if I'm wrong... but doesn't it also state that unless the evolution says you can select it more than once that you can only select it once?
I've noticed people taking reach ( tentacle ) and then applying that to every tentacle attack. It seems pretty obvious from the reach evolution wording that only 1 attack gets the reach benefit, not one form of attack. I.e. you have to pay for reach for each tentacle.
I think the wording needs to be clarified on that. It's not clear what the RAI was since the other evolutions are more explicit about what happens when/if you can take them multiple times.
Anyways the other fix for it is just to drop a couple of tentacles and increase the size or take lunge with one of your feats.