Shields and Wildshape
I know the entry under "Wild" enchantment mentions shields with a Wild enchantment work when wildshaped. This is part of the reason I expect errata on the subject.
Because, according to the rules, the shield bonus isn't eliminated when wildshaped (though very possibly the designers intended otherwise - and your DM may agree).
Specifically, the rules state this on the subject, "all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function)."
Since a Shield bonus is not an armor bonus, it does not cease to function under the rules as written.
Yawar - you've convinced me that Craft Wonderous Item is a good idea for a SotB. I will add that to the guide.
I would hate for the shield to partly work. That is to confusing. for the sake of simplicity I would rather it to work completely or not at all, but I do see your point now. I will get with my group to see how we will handle it since I can playing a druid currently.
As always, great food for thought. A couple of comments:
Liveoak: This spell specifically requires a healthy, Huge Oak. Obviously this is DM and campaign specific on just how available these are....but I know that if a player was recasting this every day because he kept getting his treants killed, I'd certainly start limiting the availability...
Summon Monster 1 Riding Dog...there's a recent post on the rules forum about downgrading it to the normal dog.
Yes, I saw the thread (I replied to it asking about the Ant Drone).
I'll wait until there is something official (It will hopefully be in the next errata) before I change the guide. I'll be probably changing Shields and Wildshape at the same time...
As for Liveoak - I can see your point. I'll consider and perhaps change the rating, or at least the wording in the guide.
"Air, Elder: You get fly at 120' (perfect) which is awesome."
I didn't look this up to verify, but are Elder Air really listed as 120 fly speed in the Bestiary? I thought they were 100' and if so the 120 provided in the wild shape would limit you to 100' of the elder air?
You are correct - I'll fix that up.
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Hello, TM!
We need to talk about Control Winds.
[snip]
I love Control Winds. I play a 10th level druid, and make use of it once in a while. A couple comments:
- I don't know if I read the spell and the weather section correctly, but at 10th level I can increase the prevailing winds by three notches right? (my DM usually says prevailing winds are moderate, so at 10th level I get --> strong, severe, windstorm right?) While it sounds cool, it does nothing to large creatures, and at 10th level you fight large or larger creatures often... so unless the prevailing winds are strong or severe, the spell ain't so great. Thus it is a situational spell at best.
- The wording of the *spell* itself says a windstorm can uproot trees. My druid cast this in a forest once... I would have liked to see some guidance in the spell description on how flying trees can hurt enemies... I'm sure it should count for *something*
- No direct damage.
- Good against ranged weapons, so I think it could be its main application... although Wind Wall can do a better job at a lower level, Wind Wall does not protect you if you're on the same side of Wind Wall as an arche, while Control Winds provides a blanket penalty to ranged weapons to absolutely everyone. So if your party has no archer: great.
I've re-evaluated Control Winds and have changed the ratings for both Druid builds:
Wild Mystic: Went with blue over green. I think I wasn't considering the AoE closely enough in my original rating. I think a Wild Mystic should probably memorize this on a regular basis. You are not only stopping missile attacks - but you are controlling the battlefield as well. It grants a save, but it's a mass save.
Spirit of the Beast: I've gone with Orange over Red. I don't think the Spirit of the Beast is going to get a lot of use from this spell, simply because of lousy save DC's. Using it as a giant wind wall however will be occassionally effective, as will be the effect on structures/trees and the like. Situationally useful.
Great guide Treantmonk. So where in your druid type would you put a druid who spends all its time in earth elemental form and has one level of monk ;)
Great guide Treantmonk. So where in your druid type would you put a druid who spends all its time in earth elemental form and has one level of monk ;)
It would be a Spirit of the Beast clearly.
The one level of Monk is one of those things that I think sounds better than it is though. The Wild Mystic can't afford the spellcasting level loss, while the Spirit of the Beast doesn't benefit as much due to a lower wisdom score.
I certainly considered it. Thought about putting it in the guide as an option, but figured it really didn't pay off in the short term or long run.
Thanks for the guide. Now I want to play a druid for a while.
.....
This handbook is way overdue. While writing this I discovered a thread where someone claimed that Druids were the WEAKEST class in Pathfinder, and that they could PROVE it.When asked to prove it, they related personal experience and this screamed to me "WE NEED A HANDBOOK!", so here it is....
Excellent job as always Treatmonk, your work is very much appreciated.
Unfortunately Druids still suck LOL
i like your guide, but i think maybe you underestimated the value of dwarves for a spirit of the beast. no direct strength bonus true, but since their bonuses are in two other useful stats, you could actually start with 17 in str, and a 14 in either con or wis. human or half human still wins probably, but i think they are definitely a cut above all the other nonhumans.
When it comes to Spirit of the Beast - Human is a cut above all the rest. His racial bonuses all are still in play even in Wildshape, and his stat bonus can be placed in Str, where you want it most.
The half-humans are a step down from that. The half-orc's darkvision and weapon Profs, the Half-elves low-light and multiple favored class bonuses, are just lost in Wildshape. However, they can still boost Str directly, which is nice.
Dwarves are the next step down. At this point, I'm not sure that a Dwarf being a better choice than a Halfling or Gnome is all that relevant is it? One way or the other - I just can't recommend it.
Dwarves make awesome Clerics, and as Wild Mystics they are very good, but as Spirits of the Beast they are 3rd tier.
Excellent job as always Treatmonk, your work is very much appreciated.
Unfortunately Druids still suck LOL
Here's where you add in, "Just kidding!"
so basically the human advantage is a +1 to hit and damage every other set of 4 levels, and an extra skill point.
and while a bit circumstantial, i'm not so sure that at low levels you can discount how much the dwarfs darkvision, +4 vs trip, and +2 vs spells affects his survivability as a front liner.
I won't discount those things are all good at low level, but at level 5 the Dwarf is basically losing 2 of the 3. So they don't count for as big an advantage as they normally do.
it seems like the dwarf is as good as the half elf at least, since the half elf pretty much only has the str bonus.
At low levels, when the dwarf has all those circumstantial bonuses, the half elf has the +1 to hit and damage vs the dwarf. In a melee-based character (especially at low level) - I'll take the higher Str bonus everytime.
At later levels then the Dwarf does catch up (and potentially pulls ahead). Maybe they do deserve the same rating.
Though really, I can't recommend either as a primary choice.
in certain campaigns where the GM likes to use enemy spellcasters, i could actually see the dwarf rising to the top cause of that save bonus.
I would say the human would still be the superior choice, though Dwarf would probably be 2nd in such a campaign.
I thought I read somewhere that there is a druid variation where you can drop the animal companion for wild form at level one. Questions:
1- does this variation actually exist, if yes then which book?
2- is this a smart option for your spirit of the beast build?
3- is this variation of druid compatible with pathfinder without a lot of major changes to how the class now functions.
I really loved the guide! I never really wanted to play a druid, but the guide has changed my mind!!
The Shapeshift Druid variant works very differently. It is in PHBII. It was WotC's attempt to "rebalance" the Druid. Overall - it's an OK job - and there were some interesting points.
1) As mentioned, the bonuses are all enhancement, which hurts a lot.
2) The shapeshift ability is not considered wildshape - so that means no "natural spell" which really hurts.
3) You can switch back and forth as often as you like, which is definitely nice.
4) You get additional forms as you increase in levels. You start out with a "hunter" form, which gets one bite attack. You can choose whether this form looks like a wolf, a leopard, a panther - etc. However, mechanically it will be the same.
5) You eventually get a flying form - but it's not a good combat form. You never get a swimming, climbing or burrowing form though.
Overall, I'm pretty sure you are better off with the PF Druid. Remember, now that you are going to have higher physical stats - a low level druid (before wildshape) is still going to do decently in melee. With an animal companion, they will probably be the best offensive output in the party.
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Treantmonk,
My players and I are loving your class guides, and are looking forward to your next editions. What classes are you planning to do next? Any chance you might entertain the idea of paladin or barbarian? Rage powers and smite changes have changed their class landscape quite a bit, and I would be interested in seeing what you suggest...
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Excellent guide, Treantmonk! Glad to see your efforts contributing to Pathfinder!
One spell I'd urge you to take another look at is speak with animals, which is far less circumstantial in use than you indicate in your guide. Why? Consider the following uses:
1. Communicate with your animal companion. This is especially useful for the Spirit of the Beast build, as well as rangers. It's all well and good to be able to get it to attack, defend, and do other tricks, but what if you want it to flank with your barbarian ally, ready a charge attack against an enemy caster, or do an aid another action to boost someone's AC or attacks? Being able to communicate more complex combat commands as needed in battle is essential. And for utility purposes, you can use your companion as a scout/information gatherer that's going to be far more reliable than a random animal you meet.
2. Communicate with your summoned animals. This is of greatest use for the wild mystic, who is most likely to do combat summons, but any druid or ranger can make use of this as well, to give complex orders to a summoned creature (e.g.: tell the eagle you summoned to snatch a wand from the enemy sorcerer's hands, or swoop down and give him a faceful of talons if he tries to utter anything).
3. Speak with pets and "hireling" animals. Even though you only get one animal companion, there's no reason not to purchase and train some riding dogs or other domesticated animals (how about an elephant?) for the uses outlined above.
4. Speak with wild animals you have charmed and used wild empathy on to make your devoted pets, for the uses outlined above.
5. Training. There are no written rules for this, but it seems reasonable to me that being able to communicate directly with an animal should aid in training it to perform a trick, or even to domesticate a wild animal--possibly in the form of a bonus to the Handle Animal check, a reduction in training time required, or both. Ask your DM. You could use this to more quickly amass a horde of trained animal allies, or to generate more of a profit during "down time" in the campaign as an animal trainer.
6. Distract or influence an enemy animal in combat. Constrictor snake got your wizard grappled? Alligator eating the halfling rogue--or even threatening to? Try to engage it in conversation; even if you don't convince it to release its prey, you might cause it to delay long enough to buy your comrade more time. (If the DM rules that mouth action is used on the animals' part when speaking back, you might even get a mouth grappler to release its prey when it speaks!) Before combat, speaking with the animals might cause them to pause long enough for you and your allies to reposition themselves and prep for battle, giving this a battlefield control use in a way. In non-combat situations, you might use social skills to bluff or persuade an animal to act in a way you desire. Bluff may not be a class skill for you, but Sense Motive is hardly an animal skill, either.
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Another suggestion: In the Skills section, I would recommend putting a rank in Linguistics to learn Undercommon. Why? Because it is the language spoken by Mites, the summon nature's ally I answer to the celestial monkey in 3.5e. You want to be able to speak to it to tell it to throw levers, yank the tripwire, open the chest, etc.! Learning sylvan (for your other fey summons) may also be a good idea.
Excellent guide, Treantmonk! Glad to see your efforts contributing to Pathfinder!
One spell I'd urge you to take another look at is speak with animals, which is far less circumstantial in use than you indicate in your guide. Why? Consider the following uses:
1. Communicate with your animal companion.
At level 4 your AC will have an Int of 3 and understand common. Before then, definitely useful.
2. Communicate with your summoned animals.
But is it worth casting in combat?
3&4 (which are pretty much the same thing - other animals you use as pets)
That's true.
5. Training.
I try to avoid making suggestions not supported in the rules - though I expect a lot of DM's would at least give you a bonus based on this suggestion.
however - not a reason to have Speak with animals memorized on a regular basis though.
6. Distract or influence an enemy animal in combat.
Definitely an inventive use of the spell. Does require the DM to play along though.
Another suggestion: In the Skills section, I would recommend putting a rank in Linguistics to learn Undercommon. Why? Because it is the language spoken by Mites, the summon nature's ally I answer to the celestial monkey in 3.5e. You want to be able to speak to it to tell it to throw levers, yank the tripwire, open the chest, etc.! Learning sylvan (for your other fey summons) may also be a good idea.
Nice suggestion - I'll add that to the guide. (Later - off to an Xmas party)
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2. Communicate with your summoned animals.But is it worth casting in combat?
Probably not, though having the option if a situation presents itself where creatures you have summoned could turn the tide of battle if you could recommend a tactic would be of great help (in this case, having it on a scroll is okay).
On the other hand, if you have any forewarning of impending battle, it makes a great pre-fight buff to have in place. With Extend Spell or a lesser rod of same, it may well carry over into future combats as well, particularly at higher levels.
Ideally you'd want to custom-build an item that lets you speak with animals at will, at higher levels, if you can convince your DM to allow you to do so. Probably in the form of a ring. But that goes beyond the scope of your guide, I'd warrant.
In any event, I think SWA is far less circumstantial in use than most of the other charm/dominate plants and animals type spells you have highlighted. I'd put it between green and orange, depending on the situation in your campaign.
Simply a wonderful guide! I'm considering rolling up a Wild Mystic for next weeks gaming.
Sorry if nit-picking, as this is a small issue, but there's one thing I'd like to not:
Create water. At 2 gallons/level, you can't fill up a pit or anything like that with this. Even a tiny 5ft by 5ft pit with a depth of 30 ft is 5610 gallons of water to fill, so even a 20th level druid would need 140 castings to fill the pit. It's simply not useful for many things else than drinking, washing, or possibly using it against small fire elementals. I guess you could also use it to destroy Paper Maiche-golems.
So I think it's a highly situational spell that will rarely be used in a way where it's actually needed, although it IS cool and I'd still prepare it. It can be used for some great pranking and humerous effects.
Simply a wonderful guide! I'm considering rolling up a Wild Mystic for next weeks gaming.
Sorry if nit-picking, as this is a small issue, but there's one thing I'd like to not:
Create water. At 2 gallons/level, you can't fill up a pit or anything like that with this. Even a tiny 5ft by 5ft pit with a depth of 30 ft is 5610 gallons of water to fill, so even a 20th level druid would need 140 castings to fill the pit.
Though you can cast it 600 times per hour...
Concerning Wild Shape:
With Beast Shape I, you can't gain a burrowing speed, so the wolverine isn't that useful.
Also, giant eagles aren't animals, so a druid can't change into one with wild shape.
Ugh. Giant eagles are magical beasts? Painful.
Changes made. Thanks!
OH! Now I get it... he meant darkwood lol.
Whoops! Yes - that is what I meant. Changed.
Though you can cast it 600 times per hour...
:D Yes, sure, but it's far easier to jump over. A more likely problem might be a chasm of 10 ft. times 10 ft. times 20 ft. at say 2nd level. This could be seen as an actual obstacle, since at this point not all characters might jump that distance safely. It would take a bit over 6 hours to fill it. Say that you only fill it half, to just reduce damage if someone should fall in, it would still be 3 hours for something that a piece of rope or wood would fix in a second.
I'm not saying it's a bad spell, just that it's extremely impractical to use it to flood chambers and fill pits.
A nice use though, might be some teamwork with Create Water and the wizards ray of frost to make some nice traps if you're staging an ambush... But it's still quite situational. It could probably be used as a distraction too, though range is a bit short. Or on a fire to make a small fog cloud.
Thinking about it some more, you are right in that it is a very versatile spell. Although each use is situational, there's quite a lot of uses it could have. I just don't see it creating large enough quantities to be useful for the big things.
I just noticed that the T-Rex would also be unavailable since it's gargantuan in Pathfinder.
Any suggestions what to do after level 12? Staying druid seems rather wasteful since wild shape doesn't improve except for additional uses per day.
Stegosaurus it is then.
After level 12, your forms aren't improving, but your spells still are. Keep to the same forms, buff yourself, and summon.
However, as I point out in the guide, beyond level 12 the power of the Spirit of the Beast build wanes.
:D Yes, sure, but it's far easier to jump over. A more likely problem might be a chasm of 10 ft. times 10 ft. times 20 ft. at say 2nd level. This could be seen as an actual obstacle, since at this point not all characters might jump that distance safely. It would take a bit over 6 hours to fill it. Say that you only fill it half, to just reduce damage if someone should fall in, it would still be 3 hours for something that a piece of rope or wood would fix in a second.
OK, I admit defeat. Curse you and your spatial relations! I'll remove the suggestion from the guide.
Even in the old days one never expected to purchase a +6 wisdom item in the Village of Hommlet.
What rules are these? If you dont want to type it out a link or reference page in the core book would be appreciated.Purchasing Magic Items Section.
Now is extremely difficult to get any item above 16000 GP without the crafting feats. Unless extreme luck or direct GM benevolence you would need several journeys across the cities of the world just to find a particular item.
Because the GP limits where about 50 gp, wich under the rules it means that they have an unlimited suply of scrolls and potions of every 1st level spell in Core, Spell Compendium and every allowed splatbook.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Even in the old days one never expected to purchase a +6 wisdom item in the Village of Hommlet.
What rules are these? If you dont want to type it out a link or reference page in the core book would be appreciated.Purchasing Magic Items Section.
Now is extremely difficult to get any item above 16000 GP without the crafting feats. Unless extreme luck or direct GM benevolence you would need several journeys across the cities of the world just to find a particular item.
Of course, by the higher levels when this becomes an issue (level 11+) you should have access to transport via plants, and can teleport to any major city in the world you wish to in your quest for the appropriate item, or high level crafter to make it for you. So not all that difficult an obstacle, really.
Shields: As of the current rules, Shield bonus to AC translates into Wildshape. As such, a large wooden shield seems like a pretty obvious starting item. As you progress, a magic shield should be of greater priority than magic armor, as the enhancement bonus to shield should also translate. Not needing a "wild" enchantment means you can open the door for other enchantments like Fortification, though you may just want the highest enhancement bonus possible instead.
Where u found that?
Shields: As of the current rules, Shield bonus to AC translates into Wildshape. As such, a large wooden shield seems like a pretty obvious starting item. As you progress, a magic shield should be of greater priority than magic armor, as the enhancement bonus to shield should also translate. Not needing a "wild" enchantment means you can open the door for other enchantments like Fortification, though you may just want the highest enhancement bonus possible instead.
Where u found that?
That shield AC would not transfer any better than the armor AC would. Either one would or both would. IIRC any enhancement affects that are not strictly AC related would work since they are always on, but you still need the wild enchantment would still be needed to get any AC bonus. If not the wild enchantment would probably not get purchased.
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That shield AC would not transfer any better than the armor AC would. Either one would or both would. IIRC any enhancement affects that are not strictly AC related would work since they are always on, but you still need the wild enchantment would still be needed to get any AC bonus. If not the wild enchantment would probably not get purchased.Shields: As of the current rules, Shield bonus to AC translates into Wildshape. As such, a large wooden shield seems like a pretty obvious starting item. As you progress, a magic shield should be of greater priority than magic armor, as the enhancement bonus to shield should also translate. Not needing a "wild" enchantment means you can open the door for other enchantments like Fortification, though you may just want the highest enhancement bonus possible instead.
Where u found that?
Okay, digging through the online SRD, I was finally able to track this down. Quoting from the "Magic" section, concerning spells with the "Polymorph" descriptor:
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). "
So there's that. Pulling from the "Equipment" section dealing with "Armor and Shields":
"Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to Armor Class, while shields grant a shield bonus to Armor Class. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus."
So a Shield Bonus to AC is not an Armor Bonus to AC, and thus still applies when polymorphed. Personally, I do not like this. [rant] How exactly is the wooden shield protecting you if it's merged with your wrist bones? Why does the shield, which is melded into your forearm, provide a bonus while your armor, which is melded into your chest and vital organs, cease to function? [/rant]. I intend to house-rule this in my games. However, it would be a house rule and not Rules As Written (RAW).
On to Magic Armor and Magic Shields, quoting from the "Magic Armor" section:
"In general, magic armor protects the wearer to a greater extent than non-magical armor. Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses)."
Here we have even more wonkiness. the enhancement bonus applied to armor is typed "magical armor bonus". That's a separate type of bonus. So technically, according to the RAW, a druid wearing +5 Hide armor and carrying a +5 Heavy Wooden Shield would have a total bonus of +16 in human form (+4 hide, +5 magic armor, +2 shield, +5 magic shield), and +12 in wildshape (+0 hide, +5 magic armor, +2 shield, +5 magic armor).
Finally, we have one more layer of extra special wacky fun. Here's the description of the "wild" magic armor property (+3 bonus):
"The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen."
Note that the description mentions both armor and shields, and points out that both the base armor/shield bonus and the magical bonus now apply. Also note that this property appears on the tables for both Magic Armor and Magic Shields.
This has things looking rather conflicted.
SUMMARY: Technically, we are in "needs an official ruling" territory here. It could go any of three ways: everything but the actual physical armor bonus applies, armor does not apply but shields do, or neither armor nor shields apply.
In my opinion, the "armor bonus does not apply" section of the Polymorph Spell descriptor refers to ALL of the following: armor bonus, magically enhanced armor bonus, shield bonus, magically enhanced shield bonus. This certainly adheres to the spirit of the rules, and deals with the otherwise mentally-straining issue of a bear wearing a shield inside his skin. But that's just my opinion; there's a three-way split.
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I imagine they'll getting around to fixing this in the PF SRD at some point. In the meantime, while it may be worth pointing out in optimization, it should definitely be added that allowing a shield bonus while polymorphed/wildshaped is cheese that no DM in his right mind will allow. So don't base your character build around it!
BobChuck has come to the same conclusion as I have regarding why Shield Bonus transfers to Wildshape.
Like BobChuck, I think it's pretty cheesy, and a prime candidate for errata. I would be very surprised if Shield Bonuses continue to work in Wildshape indefinitely.
I would absolutely discuss it with the DM. Banhammer may result.
Because the GP limits where about 50 gp, wich under the rules it means that they have an unlimited suply of scrolls and potions of every 1st level spell in Core, Spell Compendium and every allowed splatbook.Humbly,
YawarHommlet was detailed enough with a complete listing of casters and (thier attitudes) to pretty much guarantee that scrolls would be FAR FAR from unlimited. As far as I can recall the only caster who even had the ability to scribe scrolls had enough on his time that you'd play DEARLY for the privilege.
GMs who let tables rule thier game without moderation deserve the game they get.
Wich that was okay because every sane DM would house rule otherwise?
Humbly,
Yawar
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I am somewhat curious about the exclusion of an Amulet of Mighty Fists from the recommended equipment for a Spirit of the Beast. Since druids have Barkskin an Amulet of Natural Armor is less of a priority, and I think that, while expensive, this item would add a lot to the build. Adding the Holy ability, for example, would be useful to overcome damage reduction. Of course the more attacks a form has, the more it will gain from this item, so it may make a tougher call as to whether or not to be a creature with a claw/claw/bite routine or one with a single attack and Improved Vital Strike. Still, useful either way I would think...
I am somewhat curious about the exclusion of an Amulet of Mighty Fists from the recommended equipment for a Spirit of the Beast. Since druids have Barkskin an Amulet of Natural Armor is less of a priority, and I think that, while expensive, this item would add a lot to the build. Adding the Holy ability, for example, would be useful to overcome damage reduction. Of course the more attacks a form has, the more it will gain from this item, so it may make a tougher call as to whether or not to be a creature with a claw/claw/bite routine or one with a single attack and Improved Vital Strike. Still, useful either way I would think...
Good point. I think I'll add that suggestion.
Thanks!