Given the power of the eidolon, what about this for the summoner's spell casting stat:
Use the lower of Charisma and Int.
Leave the skill points at 2 per level.
(re the witch, chr has a better gut feel to it, but I haven't really thought about it.)
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I did not say "it should be charisma because of this book". I said "if you think charisma cannot apply, you should read this". What's the difference? The first statement (the one I did not say) is attempting to be a definitive answer, as you put it. The second statement (the one I did not say) is attempting to refute a definitive answer.
I have to agree that the way you presented your argument sounded like you were saying that charisma was the only applicable answer. Also, no one said that cha didn't work for a summoner. All they said was that they felt it would be more appropriate or better if it was int( I re-read the thread to make sure no one said that cha didn't work for summoners ). So you were not attempting to refute a definitive answer as none were given on either side :)
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Interesting. If I want a skilled bard or rogue I always have a high intelligence. I suppose you're saying it's your dump stat when you are going for a skillful rogue or bard? For some reason saying "bard" or "rogue" does not remind me of a dullard. In fact it entirely depends on your character concept.
"Beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes"
beckoning
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object)
1. to signal, summon, or direct by a gesture of the head or hand.
2. to lure; entice.
–noun
3. a nod, gesture, etc., that signals, directs, summons, indicates agreement, or the like.Wow... that doesn't really support your charisma argument much.
And I won't be snarky at all, but this whole detailed explanation, exactly explains why this should be Charisma based, rather than not Charisma based.
GP
I will also not be snarky. Beckoning does not necessarily involve any sort of action on the part of the beckoner( which I hope is a word :) ). One of the definitions does, the other 2 do not. They simply say you are summoning or gesturing. In fact, verbal communication seems to have no inherent connection to beckoning. If I am wrong, please explain where you are getting some sort of implied interaction other than those already mentioned? ( I do not count 1 definition out of 3 as being an implied condition )
ll they said was that they felt it would be more appropriate or better if it was int( I re-read the thread to make sure no one said that cha didn't work for summoners ).
This is the specific quote I was thinking of:
The summoner creates his eidolon from raw planar material. I imagine he is using his some sort of complex mathematical system to be able to force this evolution and summon it to his side. He would be better as a prepared caster instead of spontaneous. It is more in keeping with his methodical nature
Which really has nothing to do with any of the Summoner flavor text at all and seems to stem from an "I don't see how Charisma even works" point of view.
In fact, verbal communication seems to have no inherent connection to beckoning.
What's that matter? Charisma isn't limited to verbal communication, or Use Magic Device and Handle Animal wouldn't be Charisma checks.
That being said, there must be valid arguments if a large portion of the posters (potentially a majority, though one thread isn't an exact barometer) feel that the ability scores don't work or make sense as they're currently used.
50 some posts by far less than 50 posters is not a majority. The majority of the people I know don't even frequent these forums, and most of them have no real complaint about the ability score choices for any of the new classes.
One of the largest problems I felt we had during the first beta was people complaining about everything and getting many things unnecessarily changed. I hope this time around Jason and crew won't let a few people on the interwebs dictate design policy - because everything I've seen about the Advanced Players Guide so far has seemed fantastic.
There were some moderate issues, but I suspect most of them can and will be worked out by people who actually playtest, instead of crying about how they don't like the flavor of certain aspects of classes.
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That being said, there must be valid arguments if a large portion of the posters (potentially a majority, though one thread isn't an exact barometer) feel that the ability scores don't work or make sense as they're currently used.50 some posts by far less than 50 posters is not a majority. The majority of the people I know don't even frequent these forums, and most of them have no real complaint about the ability score choices for any of the new classes.
One of the largest problems I felt we had during the first beta was people complaining about everything and getting many things unnecessarily changed. I hope this time around Jason and crew won't let a few people on the interwebs dictate design policy - because everything I've seen about the Advanced Players Guide so far has seemed fantastic.
There were some moderate issues, but I suspect most of them can and will be worked out by people who actually playtest, instead of crying about how they don't like the flavor of certain aspects of classes.
I agree that most people do not frequent the forums. However, as they don't interact with paizo, I think it is assumed that the people who are on the forums are representative of the people who aren't. That may or may not be true( elected officials aren't necessarily representative of the people who elect them and the people on the forums certainly aren't elected ), but most of what people are doing is voicing their opinion and stimulating debate on a topic. Whether others agree or not, at least another viewpoint has been considered. It is completely up to the designers to do whatever they think best for the classes.
Honestly, I would be extremely surprised if they changed the Summoner's casting stat to Int. Does that mean that people shouldn't discuss it? No. It's always possible it will have some effect. I can easily see arguments for both cases, it just happens I favor int instead of cha. That doesn't make me right or wrong, but it does give feedback to paizo so that they can decide what they want to do. Based on the skill list( and other things) , it seems like they are much more cerebrally oriented to me. Obviously Zurai vehemently disagrees :)
That being said, there must be valid arguments if a large portion of the posters (potentially a majority, though one thread isn't an exact barometer) feel that the ability scores don't work or make sense as they're currently used.50 some posts by far less than 50 posters is not a majority. The majority of the people I know don't even frequent these forums, and most of them have no real complaint about the ability score choices for any of the new classes.
One of the largest problems I felt we had during the first beta was people complaining about everything and getting many things unnecessarily changed. I hope this time around Jason and crew won't let a few people on the interwebs dictate design policy - because everything I've seen about the Advanced Players Guide so far has seemed fantastic.
There were some moderate issues, but I suspect most of them can and will be worked out by people who actually playtest, instead of crying about how they don't like the flavor of certain aspects of classes.
Well, the purpose of an open playtest is letting people voice their opinions. I'm sure some people felt the same way about changes that you like. If people don't bother to post, they don't get to put on their playtest feedback. That's their choice. I wouldn't characterize the feedback the designers have asked for as a few people whining on the internet.
And, aside from that, if you read the sentence of my text that you quoted, I was trying to indicate that we can't get a majority from this thread, but that a number of the people posting do feel it's a point worth bringing up.
Personally, I feel that Charisma is a more appropriate stat for a Pokemon trainer than Intelligence.
I would like to think pokemon trainer is just one possible explanation for the class, as the concept doesn't even begin to fit into most RPG games I've played.
There were some moderate issues, but I suspect most of them can and will be worked out by people who actually playtest, instead of crying about how they don't like the flavor of certain aspects of classes.
One thing I had seen in the first AGP playtest was how people would get up on a high horse and spout down from on high about how anyone who gave any negative feedback were just whiny crybaby's.
I had hoped that the Paizo crew would have learned from that, and put the serious smack down on people who do so. It adds nothing to the playtest, it intimidates some posters into not posting their feedback, and it generally is just flamebait designed to destabilize the discussions. Basically, it's a waste of bits and internet bandwidth dealing with it.
If you have an issue with a specific bit of feedback, fine, post why you don't agree with it. But if all you can contribute is insults and derogatory comments, please keep them to yourself. Some of us on here would like to give feedback to the developers, and it get's very old very quickly when people try to derail the entire process by throwing out insults and deriding others because they can't be bothered to come up with meaningful feedback.
One thing I had seen in the first AGP playtest was how people would get up on a high horse and spout down from on high about how anyone who gave any negative feedback were just whiny crybaby's.I had hoped that the Paizo crew would have learned from that, and put the serious smack down on people who do so. It adds nothing to the playtest, it intimidates some posters into not posting their feedback, and it generally is just flamebait designed to destabilize the discussions. Basically, it's a waste of bits and internet bandwidth dealing with it.
If you have an issue with a specific bit of feedback, fine, post why you don't agree with it. But if all you can contribute is insults and derogatory comments, please keep them to yourself. Some of us on here would like to give feedback to the developers, and it get's very old very quickly when people try to derail the entire process by throwing out insults and deriding others because they can't be bothered to come up with meaningful feedback.
--Claps hands---
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+1 for Witch with CHA or WIS, as a prepared caster.
Here is my heretical proposition for the Summoner:
Why not consider CON as the casting stat?
A little bit of fluff change and your power comes from the bond that you share with your Eidolon. You are using your very body & soul to call it from the beyond, etc. etc.
And add to the end of Life Link (Su): Due to the link that you share with your Eidolon, you gain only 1/2 your CON bonus in extra hitpoints for each level in Summoner that you posses.
This has the added benefit of keeping the iconic as a suitable race for the summoner (I'm assuming he is a gnome based on the picture).
I know it has never been done before. But why not?
Here is my heretical proposition for the Summoner:Why not consider CON as the casting stat?
A little bit of fluff change and your power comes from the bond that you share with your Eidolon. You are using your very body & soul to call it from the beyond, etc. etc.And add to the end of Life Link (Su): Due to the link that you share with your Eidolon, you gain only 1/2 your CON bonus in extra hitpoints for each level in Summoner that you posses.
This has the added benefit of keeping the iconic as a suitable race for the summoner (I'm assuming he is a gnome based on the picture).
I know it has never been done before. But why not?
This is definitely a cool idea. I'm afraid it could make con too powerful a stat, but it also makes a lot of sense.
I completely agree with the ability scores for summoners and witches as they are.
-The summoner contacts other planes and form bonds with extraplanar creatures. Make deals with outsiders, and has spontaneous spellcasting. Thats something that looks based on Charisma to me.
-Witches aren't known for being very wise (more for being mad) or very comely. There are exceptions, but mostly, a witch is someone who studies dark secrets whispered by a supernatural companion that severs as a link to the source of her knowledge. With Int as a base stat we can have ugly and grumpy witches, mad or distractable witches.
So, if it were up to me those scores would remain as they are.
I also favor Wis for Witches. No opinion on Summoners.
Here's a wacky idea - let the player and the DM figure out what the caster's main stat is in regard to spell casting.
If the player wants a character who is a smarmy used car salesman type who summons creatures to do his bidding through sycophantic supplication, it would be Cha., however, if they are the studious type who has extensively studied planar creatures and knows how to bind and control through rituals, then it would be Int.. The Con. option would be good as you invest yourself in the creation of the eidolon, like a supercharged homunculus.
Same for the witch, Cha. for the sultry seductress who enforces her own will onto those she chooses to favor, and does so through sheer force of personality, or the cackling old crone who has her book (Int.) and begins crafting the curse that will magically dominate the town's children to come to her for the old stew pot and stove, or even the helpful good-wife who uses herbal remedies and passed down hearth-wisdom (Wis.) to aid the sick and occasionally hex someone who's over rambunctious in town.
After all, it was stated that these classes present in the Advanced Player's Guide are going to be rarities compared to core classes - making their main stat mutable according to the flavor of the character would be appropriate if allowed by your DM, and would represent a change in how these classes are perceived, and allows both the DM and the player to create unique flavors using the same template.
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This is definitely a cool idea. I'm afraid it could make con too powerful a stat, but it also makes a lot of sense.
I disagree about it making it too powerful. How is it any different from Wisdom as a casting stat? It grants the save as Wisdom, but with the change added to life link it reduces the hitpoint gain to a level that fits with those that aren't maxing out their CON.
A level 1 Druid with a 14 CON and 18 WIS is nearly identical to a level 1 Summoner with 18 CON and 14 WIS or whatever, the only difference is that the bonus changes. And as usual, as any stat increases it makes it harder to increase; diminishing returns. And with the 1/2 penalty to the CON HP bonus, you're never going to see a Summoner more burly than a Fighter or a Barbarian, no matter how he maxes that stat.
For Example say we have a level 20 Summoner A.K.A. the walking meat-ball who has exclusively pumped CON to the exclusion of all other stats, vs. the average level 20 Fighter (assuming average HP).
Meat Ball: CON 32, HP 190 (Base 90 +100 for 1/2 Con Bonus)
(Starting 20, to the exclusion of all other stats +5 increases at levels 4,8,12,16,20 +6 for Belt of Mighty Constitution +1 for Manual of Munchkin Constitution)
Joe Fighter: CON 20, HP 210 (Base 110 +100 for Con Bonus)
(Starting 14, +6 for Belt of Physical Perfection)
EDIT: Or compare it to the old Summoner at level 20
Joe Summoner: CON 16, HP 150 (Base 90 +60 for Con Bonus)
(Starting 14, +2 for Belt of Physical Perfection)
I think it also fits in with the niche that the Summoner fills. Similar to the Bard (A rogue/sorcerer/fighter mix with 3/4 BAB, REF & WILL as good saves) a Summoner is a 3/4 BAB "fighter/conjuror", yet he only gets a good WILL save.
I disagree about it making it too powerful. How is it any different from Wisdom as a casting stat? It grants the save as Wisdom, but with the change added to life link it reduces the hitpoint gain to a level that fits with those that aren't maxing out their CON.
I suppose that's true. They aren't going to get crazy with that specific drawback. I like it better than I like charisma.
Overall, I have to say, I've really liked the new classes thus far. This thread shouldn't read as an indictment of the new classes, and I'm aware it's easier to make a gripe thread than it is to make a congratulatory thread.
That being said, I don't think the right ability scores are being used for either the summoner or the Witch.
In the summoner's case, I don't think Charisma makes sense. If a summoner is shaping his eidolon out of the raw soup of creation, or even if he's simply altering an existing creature, it seems that he would be more about comprehending the creature's anatomy than he would be about using force of personality to meet his ends. More importantly, it's very mechanically boring. The game already has 2 partial casters and 1 full caster using charisma, and one of them has the exact same progression of spells/day and spells/known as the summoner. It feels a bit repetitive. Out of the published 11 classes, only 1 uses int mod for casting, and, unlike wisdom or charisma, int doesn't yet have a partial caster (and if you were going to make one, this'd probably be it).
The witch actually seems worse off. Her source of power is supposed to be a 'pact with an otherworldly power'. That bargaining sounds like charisma far more than it does int. The character is bargaining, which deals with force of personality. On the other hand, the character communes with her familiar, which sounds like it deals with focus and meditation more than it does memorization or knowledge (after all, it's the familiar's knowledge, not the witch's, that determines her spells). This could mean wisdom. It seems like int is the only not-viable casting stat for the witch. Mechanically, this isn't as boring as the summoner, since int isn't overused, but it's worth thinking about. Hell, I wouldnt' even mind seeing a spontaneous wisdom caster.
In my own game, I'm already going to be houseruling that my summoner can play int, as cha makes no sense with his concept. Has anyone else seen this problem? Does...
I would agree that int is a more suitable stat as your supposed to be progressing by learning about and understanding you Eidolon. It isn't a slave, it isn't a thrall, it is a sentient WILLING being that is binding to the summoner as the summoner continues to learn about it.
This is definitely a cool idea. I'm afraid it could make con too powerful a stat, but it also makes a lot of sense.
Here is my heretical proposition for the Summoner:Why not consider CON as the casting stat?
A little bit of fluff change and your power comes from the bond that you share with your Eidolon. You are using your very body & soul to call it from the beyond, etc. etc.And add to the end of Life Link (Su): Due to the link that you share with your Eidolon, you gain only 1/2 your CON bonus in extra hitpoints for each level in Summoner that you posses.
This has the added benefit of keeping the iconic as a suitable race for the summoner (I'm assuming he is a gnome based on the picture).
I know it has never been done before. But why not?
While it would make con the be all end all stat for summoners, Con is also the most likely stat to be drained from bleeds, poisons and spells. so while it would be REALLY good, it would also be a stat prone to being attacked, which could be balanced. cool concept, but i like int more.
Ok to clarify I support the Idea of switching the Witch to Wis and i think the summoner is fine as he is.
But there has been a subset of the arguement missing in my opinion. Cha Wis and Int all influence diffrent skills and if you look at those lists the Int list: Craft, the knowlege skilss, liguistics,spellcraft isnt as fitting for a witch as the Wis list which is Heal ,Perception, Profession,sense motive,survival. SO if the witch is changed to Wis then the skill need to modified for better flavour as well i think adding Sense motive and Perception to the mix would be apropriate. Even without switching the caster attribute.
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Ok to clarify I support the Idea of switching the Witch to Wis and i think the summoner is fine as he is.
But there has been a subset of the arguement missing in my opinion. Cha Wis and Int all influence diffrent skills and if you look at those lists the Int list: Craft, the knowlege skilss, liguistics,spellcraft isnt as fitting for a witch as the Wis list which is Heal ,Perception, Profession,sense motive,survival. SO if the witch is changed to Wis then the skill need to modified for better flavour as well i think adding Sense motive and Perception to the mix would be apropriate. Even without switching the caster attribute.
... Oddly that is one of the arguments for switching Summoner. He currently has a very int based skill list.
... Oddly that is one of the arguments for switching Summoner. He currently has a very int based skill list.Ok to clarify I support the Idea of switching the Witch to Wis and i think the summoner is fine as he is.
But there has been a subset of the arguement missing in my opinion. Cha Wis and Int all influence diffrent skills and if you look at those lists the Int list: Craft, the knowlege skilss, liguistics,spellcraft isnt as fitting for a witch as the Wis list which is Heal ,Perception, Profession,sense motive,survival. SO if the witch is changed to Wis then the skill need to modified for better flavour as well i think adding Sense motive and Perception to the mix would be apropriate. Even without switching the caster attribute.
Yeah I know and that is an arguement for switching the summoner to Int but i dont think he would gain as much flavour from the switch. I think he would be better served by adding Diplomacy and Bluff to his list and removing Appraise.