Really like this class from first read through.
The eidolon abilities will take a while to figure out though, very customizable, great stuff!
I think pure awesome summons up my first impression
I have a picture in my mind of having some of the creatures i created in the video game spore follow me around a dungeon. In fact if i use this class I am pretty sure i am going to use the creature creator to create the image of it.
Facing a Summoner as the BBEG could be interesting, Eidolon [AC 50!]
I have a picture in my mind of having some of the creatures i created in the video game spore follow me around a dungeon. In fact if i use this class I am pretty sure i am going to use the creature creator to create the image of it.I'm afraid of this in some regards, myself. There's nothing wrong with giving players a bit of freedom, but my inner pessimist tells me that there's a 50% chance any given Summoner will be dredging up some neon-rainbow horror from the depths of teenage internet hell.
Actually,
I'm more concerned with players summoning up 8 foot tall, four armed, naked amazon eidelons with boosted charisma and four swords, then wanting to open a brothel whenever they are not adventuring.
I read through the class, and I've gotta say that I love it. The name fits the mechanics perfectly, I can't even think of a better option for the class to be called. The mechanics are really cool, the Eidolon is a pretty sweet deal, and it's just got a lot of neat stuff going for it. I did originally feel that another spontaneous caster was a bit odd, though. I'd have expected a prepared caster, but the Witch at least allows there to be another preparation arcane caster around. It's a cool class with a lot of flavor and a pretty neat illustration.
My main complaint is that you can't get a large eidolon until 6th level. I'd kind of liked the idea of pulling off something with a large mount eidolon via a small dash of summoner - a character with a mystic mount that doesn't have to wait through a quarter of their career to get it. I guess druid's still a better option for that sort of thing, but I could see some sort of extrapolation of the Eidolon for this approach later on.
Overall-What a cool class. Really, really well done. It will be fun to play.
The Good-The class spell list is nearly perfect. It fulfills the wizards niche without stepping on the wizard's toes. The Eidolon is very cool. Not only does the system allow for a ton of creativity, but it keeps straightjacketing from happening.
The Bad-charisma based (not elaborating, I already made a thread). I also hate the name eidolon (is this some reference I don't get? I keep seeing it in RPGs). The summon is breakable (huge size needs to go, limits need to be made on AC and # of attacks). The Summon monster SLAs are too inlfexible (the class already has summon spells on its list and it straightjackets characters who don't WANT to cast summon monster spells. I'd rather see this made into bonus conjuration spells, or even just spells from the wizard's list).
My main complaint is that you can't get a large eidolon until 6th level. I'd kind of liked the idea of pulling off something with a large mount eidolon via a small dash of summoner - a character with a mystic mount that doesn't have to wait through a quarter of their career to get it. I guess druid's still a better option for that sort of thing, but I could see some sort of extrapolation of the Eidolon for this approach later on.
If you start off with a small race like halfling, you can start off with it as a mount.
But that would depend on your concept, I guess.
I kind of agree with the Large eidolon complaint, though I understand that the HUGE size bonuses are why it waits. But I'd like to be able to play a human with an eidolon mount to start off with myself. Overall, this is very cool, but my ideas for a companion often involve a mount from level 1, and I don't want to have to be Small to do it.
Overall-What a cool class. Really, really well done. It will be fun to play.
The Good-The class spell list is nearly perfect. It fulfills the wizards niche without stepping on the wizard's toes. The Eidolon is very cool. Not only does the system allow for a ton of creativity, but it keeps straightjacketing from happening.
The Bad-charisma based (not elaborating, I already made a thread). I also hate the name eidolon (is this some reference I don't get? I keep seeing it in RPGs). The summon is breakable (huge size needs to go, limits need to be made on AC and # of attacks). The Summon monster SLAs are too inlfexible (the class already has summon spells on its list and it straightjackets characters who don't WANT to cast summon monster spells. I'd rather see this made into bonus conjuration spells, or even just spells from the wizard's list).
In Theosophy, an eidolon (Greek ειδωλον: image, idol, double, apparition, phantom, ghost) is the astral double of a living being; a phantom-double of the human form; a shade or perispirit; the kamarupa after death, before its disintegration. The phantom can appear under certain conditions to survivors of the deceased. The term Eidolon was used by Edgar Allan Poe in his poem 'Dreamland'.
dude, that's what google is for!!
The Good-The class spell list is nearly perfect. It fulfills the wizards niche without stepping on the wizard's toes. The Eidolon is very cool. Not only does the system allow for a ton of creativity, but it keeps straightjacketing from happening.
I have to admit that I don't really like the lower level versions of spells. For instance, now I suppose that a wand of Teleport is possible, and wands/potions/scrolls of Haste just got significantly cheaper. Not to mention Summon Monster IX as a 6th level spell... :-/
I have to admit that I don't really like the lower level versions of spells. For instance, now I suppose that a wand of Teleport is possible, and wands/potions/scrolls of Haste just got significantly cheaper. Not to mention Summon Monster IX as a 6th level spell... :-/
Would hate to not mention those wonderful potions of stoneskin.
My first impression is: I like the concept, I like the summoning, the spells seem good, but maybe could use some extra castings/day if it is going to use much support magic. I like the eidolon stuff.
But I'm just not sure what the summoner's role is. The Eidolon wades into combat/kicks butt. Summoned creature(probably a given for most combats) attacks too. But what does the summoner himself do while this is going on? He doesn't quite seem strong enough to jump into combat himself with the hd and bab and light armor, and not quite enough spells to fling them all day. Do you see him as a support archer?
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But I'm just not sure what the summoner's role is. The Eidolon wades into combat/kicks butt. Summoned creature(probably a given for most combats) attacks too. But what does the summoner himself do while this is going on?
Pokemon masters rarely entered combat unless they had to save their pokemon ^_^
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought of Spore when reading through the eidolon rules. That revelation helped me realize I'll now be able to make all the creatures that were too preposterous even for that game!
I like the limited spellcasting a lot - always have loved bards - and charisma is by far the most sensible stat to use when your class is defined by having other critters do your bidding. I'm a bit confused that they get cleric BAB, however - these chaps are absolutely abysmal in any sort of conventional combat. Light armor and simple weapons means they're gonna be chilling out in the back lines of every combat.
If I understand spell-like abilities correctly, Spell Focus (Conjuration) into Augment Summoning is pretty much the correct initial feat path for every summoner. Dunno if I like that.
I just wonder how long it will take to have a Summoner named Ash in somebody's campaign.
Finally I can make a Final Fantasy Summoner in all his/her glory !...
Somehow, I would have to 'twist' some abilities however to completely convert Summons like Valefor (Quadruped without a free limbs (legs) ? Maybe switching those two bonus Evolution points from one of her Limbs (legs) into Flight at 5th level ?)* or Anima (Bipedal Creature without legs and an extra head... and also without 'free' hands... hmm, maybe the Serpentine form is best suited for her...)
*Could this be a legitimate thing to do? Changing some of the 'free' Evolution points into something other (of course, level-appropriate, like 'no Flight until 5th level')?
I sense Yuna is coming...
Pokemon masters rarely entered combat unless they had to save their pokemon ^_^
But I'm just not sure what the summoner's role is. The Eidolon wades into combat/kicks butt. Summoned creature(probably a given for most combats) attacks too. But what does the summoner himself do while this is going on?
HD: 2d10+0( 20hp)
Speed: 20ft, Climb 20ft, Swim 20ft
Fort:0=0+0 Reflex:7=3+4 Will:3=3+0 Bab:+2 CMB:+1 CMD: 13
Ac:17=10+4(dex)+2(natural)+1(size) Tch:15 Ff:15
Str8 Dex18 Con11
Int7 Wis10 Cha11
Bite(1d4-1, x2, BPS)+6
Tail Whip
Tail Slap(1d4-1, x2, B)+6 10ft reach
Evolutions: Bite(f), Climb(f), Tail(f), Tail Slam(f), Reach(Tail Slap, 1 point), Gills(1 point), Swim(1 point)
Special: Darkvision, Link, Share Spells
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Skills
Acrobatics: 9=4+2+3
Swim: 9=4+2+3
Perception: 5=0+2+3
Stealth: 13=4+2+3+4
Medium Biped Eidolon
HD: 2d10+2( 22hp)
Speed: 30ft,
Fort: 4=3+1 Reflex: 1=0+1 Will: 3=3+0 Bab:+2 CMB:+5 CMD: 16
Ac: 14=10+2(dex)+2(natural) Tch:12 Ff:12
Str16 Dex12 Con13
Int7 Wis10 Cha11
2 Slams(2d6+4, x2, B)+5
2 Power Attack Slams(2d6+7, x2, B)+4
Evolutions: Claws(f), Limbs(arms, f), Limbs(legs, f), Slam(1 point, replaces claws), Imp. Natural Armor(+2, 1 point), Improved Damage(Slam, 1 point)
Special: Darkvision, Link, Share Spells
Feats: Power Attack
Skills
Perception: 5=0+2+3
Stealth: 6=1+2+3
Sense Motive: 5=0+2+3
Craft(weapons): 3=-2+2+3
Medium Biped Eidolon
HD: 17d10+68+17( 195hp) max first 2, half+1 every level after 2nd
Speed: 30ft, Fly 40ft(average maneuverability)
Fort: 14=10+4 Reflex: 9=5+4 Will: 10=10+0 Bab:+17 CMB:+30 CMD: 44
Ac: 35=10+4(dex)+26(natural)-1(size) Tch:13 Ff:35
Str34 Dex18 Con18(17+1)
Int7 Wis10 Cha12(11+1)
2 Claws(1d6+12+1d6 fire, x2, SP)+30
Bite(1d8+6+1d6 fire, x2, BPS)+29
Tail Slap(1d8+6+1d6 fire, x2, B)+29
Wing Buffet(1d6+6+1d6 fire, x2, B)+29
Breath Weapon(17d6, Fire, 30ft-cone or 60ft-line, DC:22 ) 3/day
Evolutions: Claws(f), Limbs(arms, f), Limbs(legs, f), Imp. Natural Armor(+4, 2 points), Improved Damage(Claws, 1 point), Flight(x2, 4 points, wings), Immunity(Fire, 2 points), Tail(1 point), Tail Slap(1 point), Bite(1 point), Magic Attacks(1 point), Wing Buffet(1 point), Energy Attacks(Fire, 2 points), Breath Weapon(Fire, 7 points)
Special: Darkvision, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack, Improved Evasion
Feats: Power Attack, Light Armor Proficiency,Endurance, Diehard, Improved Critical(Claws), Critical Focus, Bleeding Critical, Toughness, Weapon Focus(Claw)
Skills
Flight: 22=4+17+3-2
Perception: 20=0+17+3
Survival: 20=0+17+3
Swim: 24=4+17+3
I just wonder how long it will take to have a Summoner named Ash in somebody's campaign.
Do you realize just how weak Ash is as a trainer? Pikachu was beaten by a Magikarp!!!
Pokemon masters rarely entered combat unless they had to save their pokemon ^_^
But I'm just not sure what the summoner's role is. The Eidolon wades into combat/kicks butt. Summoned creature(probably a given for most combats) attacks too. But what does the summoner himself do while this is going on?** spoiler omitted **
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That's awesome...totally. Completely. Awesome. I imagine there are innumerable pokemon that could be converted to this. Kinda makes me feel giddy.
I just wonder how long it will take to have a Summoner named Ash in somebody's campaign.Do you realize just how weak Ash is as a trainer? Pikachu was beaten by a Magikarp!!!
Isn't that technically impossible? Magikarp can't even hurt anything unless it uses Struggle...
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Isn't that technically impossible? Magikarp can't even hurt anything unless it uses Struggle...I just wonder how long it will take to have a Summoner named Ash in somebody's campaign.Do you realize just how weak Ash is as a trainer? Pikachu was beaten by a Magikarp!!!
No actually, Magikarp get Tackle(level 12 I think) and Flail(level 35).
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Pokemon masters rarely entered combat unless they had to save their pokemon ^_^
But I'm just not sure what the summoner's role is. The Eidolon wades into combat/kicks butt. Summoned creature(probably a given for most combats) attacks too. But what does the summoner himself do while this is going on?** spoiler omitted **
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Damnit because of you I now have to create venusaur (my favorite of the original pokemon game)
You cannot save evolution points.
All this talk of Magikarps makes me wonder. Would it be possible to hold off on altering evolution points and then doing a drastic change with a whole boatload of them on a whim? Or was there a clause for how many evolution points you can shuffle at a given time that I missed.
There's a clause that says all of the evolution points must be spent at each level, so no, you can't do that. (Although I suppose you could continually spend them on less obvious things, like darkvision, and then at some later level suddenly just reallocate everything for a whole new monstrosity.)
2 Skill points per level seems a bit low. 4 seems to be better. I could understand if the prime stat wasn't CHA. Just MO.
2 Skill points per level seems a bit low. 4 seems to be better. I could understand if the prime stat wasn't CHA. Just MO.
Summoners' skill points are deceptive, because the Eidolons have 7 intelligence and 6+Int skill points per HD, with 4 choose-your-own-class-skills. In other words, the Summoner really has 5-6 skill points per level, on average.
Damnit because of you I now have to create venusaur (my favorite of the original pokemon game)Pokemon masters rarely entered combat unless they had to save their pokemon ^_^
But I'm just not sure what the summoner's role is. The Eidolon wades into combat/kicks butt. Summoned creature(probably a given for most combats) attacks too. But what does the summoner himself do while this is going on?** spoiler omitted **
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Venusaur was always my favorite, too. Venusaur fans, unite!
The class is one of the best made I've ever seen. The mechanics are great. I would definitely increase the skill points. The summoner needs to be somewhat good in social skills.
Pshaw Charizard was easy to beatAnd be decimated by Charizard!I now have to create venusaur (my favorite of the original pokemon game)Venusaur was always my favorite, too. Venusaur fans, unite!
Charizard was the bomb if you could make it to him, but the first couple gym leaders and zones were a real son of a mother with him. Seriously? Rock Gym, Rock Zone, Water Zone, then Water Gym? Outch. Didn't stop me from going charmander to start almost every time though.
Of course the key to the game was always nabbing an Arba as early as you could and evolving him to Kadabra. Once you had Kadabra the game was smooth sailing for the most part.
The class is one of the best made I've ever seen. The mechanics are great. I would definitely increase the skill points. The summoner needs to be somewhat good in social skills.
Yep, but the Summoner doesn't get Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy or Sense Motive as skills which strikes me as odd for a class which is supposed to be making deals with outsiders.
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OMG! LOVE THIS! Keep 'em coming! By the way, haunter, lickitung, and kabutops are thee of my favs - just saying. (All of a sudden it starts to become clear why I might have advocated this class in the first place :P)
Damnit because of you I now have to create venusaur (my favorite of the original pokemon game)
Post it!
I was personally tempted to make Machamp myself, but I digress.
My first impression of the skill list: pretty average, with UMD for that nice charisma synergy, but why handle animal? How much animal husbandry is this student of the planes doing?
The Eidolon: At low level this thing has a lot of health, an alright attack bonus and eats small monsters for breakfast. On the downside he can be kind of weak if he's serpentine (at level 1 in comparison to other eidolons), but nonetheless.
Actually the class list is pretty awesome for the Eidolon. Sans anything, I can make a human-looking Eidolon, dress him in clothing that covers the giant glowy mark of doom, and get him to go bluff for me by taking disguise and enhancing charisma. Hilarity ensues.
-4 STR for small size? That seems a bit harsh! That's a one point negative return to its melee attacks, which is what the Eidolon is supposed to do. -2 plus the size reduction to natural and manufactured attacks is more than enough. Compared to all the other evolutions, this is also weird, since if I'm reading this correctly you can only make this choice at level one. Even if this is the correct thing to do for size change, it shouldn't be so here.
Also, why do they get multiattack so late? Any player who's familiar with how natural weapons work and is going to have his eidolon use them will grab that much sooner. It's not something I would wait eight levels for. If it was IMPROVED multiattack on the other hand...
The Spell list: Actually I quite like it. You dance around the Wizard list and the cleric list, grabbing spells a level or so late, and you have almost no attack spells but the summons... Which is the point of the class! I like the teleportation stuff, but the Eidolon will need to share some abilities, like dimension door, and as currently written he can't do that.
More to come with the actual playtest!
Oops, forgot I already had!I think I'll make a thread instead...Damnit because of you I now have to create venusaur (my favorite of the original pokemon game)Post it!
Even better!
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Pokemon masters rarely entered combat unless they had to save their pokemon ^_^
But I'm just not sure what the summoner's role is. The Eidolon wades into combat/kicks butt. Summoned creature(probably a given for most combats) attacks too. But what does the summoner himself do while this is going on?** spoiler omitted **
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NICE
Also, why do they get multiattack so late? Any player who's familiar with how natural weapons work and is going to have his eidolon use them will grab that much sooner. It's not something I would wait eight levels for. If it was IMPROVED multiattack on the other hand...
Note that Multiattack is way, way less important (in general) in PFRPG because many/most creatures have multiple primary attacks and no secondary attacks. For instance, out of all the druid animal companions listed in the Core rulebook, only the horse has any secondary attacks (which kind of makes the free Multiattack feat at level 9 pretty useless, but that's a topic for another thread...).
Before we digress off topic, I will clarify that the Summoner in my opinion felt a lot like the one archetype I saw in Mecha and Manga from Green Ronin dealing with pets. Although I do find it interesting in that they are going with more pet classes when they gave the option of doing something else with the pet feature of the base classes that traditionally had them like Druid, Ranger, Wizard and Sorcerer.
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Really like this class from first read through.
The eidolon abilities will take a while to figure out though, very customizable, great stuff!
That's my impression, too! Before the playtest I thought Jason couldn't come up with a Summoner class that would be interesting without making Conjurer totally redundant (did not happen as the spell lists are so different). I was wrong -- this *is* an exciting class! And it works nicely *both* for PCs and NPCs (I so want to use a Summoner minion with an exotic Eidolon as soon as possible).
I also feel that the Eidolon mechanic is exactly how the Druid's 'Wild Shape' should have worked. Maybe Jason will include an alternative take on the Druid in APG or some other upcoming supplement? :)
Wow, I didn't see that the summoner has not even one social skill, nor heal.
For a class based on Cha, this is weird.
A summoner should have diplomacy to bargain with other planes, bluff for the same reason and to conceal the true nature of his craft. He should have heal to take care of his Eidolon, sense motive for negotiation too.
Its a guy who lives with another being for the most of the time, he should be good at interpersonal skills, and using his high Charisma. 4 points instead of 2 would make more sense too.
I definitely agree that the Summoner needs social skills on his class skill list. Two of them at a minimum. Zero is exceptionally odd.