Summoner: First impressions


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

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Zurai wrote:
I definitely agree that the Summoner needs social skills on his class skill list. Two of them at a minimum. Zero is exceptionally odd.

That was the first thing that stood out for me. Just doesn't fit with my idea of a summoner. If and, I hope, when the Summoner gets Bluff, etc. then the case for 4 skill ranks per level becomes stronger. After all the class isn't getting the skill boost from INT like a Wizard does.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Why would a summoner have social skills? He probably spends all his time talking to his eidolon, so I'm sure he doesn't relate well to others.


Having someone to talk is more reason than the sorcerer has. The summoner does not only relate with his Eidolo but with all sorts of summoned creatures. He is also, the best class to make planar contracts.


Epic Meepo wrote:
Why would a summoner have social skills? He probably spends all his time talking to his eidolon, so I'm sure he doesn't relate well to others.

With all his summons, Handle animal is his Social Skill!!

Brian


Estragon wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
Why would a summoner have social skills? He probably spends all his time talking to his eidolon, so I'm sure he doesn't relate well to others.

With all his summons, Handle animal is his Social Skill!!

Brian

Except that he won't make planar deals with animals, nor his eidolon is an animal.


Heladriell wrote:
Having someone to talk is more reason than the sorcerer has. The summoner does not only relate with his Eidolo but with all sorts of summoned creatures. He is also, the best class to make planar contracts.

I imagine that sort of person who chooses to magically summon friends to him from other planes to not be all that great at knowing how to talk to people. Kind of in the same league as a guy making a robotic girlfriend.

It is one of many ways of looking at this no doubt.

Dark Archive

uncleden wrote:
Heladriell wrote:
Having someone to talk is more reason than the sorcerer has. The summoner does not only relate with his Eidolo but with all sorts of summoned creatures. He is also, the best class to make planar contracts.

I imagine that sort of person who chooses to magically summon friends to him from other planes to not be all that great at knowing how to talk to people. Kind of in the same league as a guy making a robotic girlfriend.

It is one of many ways of looking at this no doubt.

Er... you can be social, even if you... *cough* ... were a dwarf who made a golem, er, wife. Uhm, naturally, I'm talking about a friend, here... and he's such a funny and social guy!


Of all the class concepts so far, I hate the Summoner the most. The heriocs have just shifted from the PC to the PET. Not only a bad move for the Summoner; the Eidolon will now be the centerpiece of most parties...well, at least they have a mascot. It will pretty much dictate the party theme as though; it's hard to represent the Knight of the Golden Dragon when your Summoner is stroking the fur of his pink octopus thingy...no good at all.

Having said all that...barring a few minor here's and there's, the Summoner was designed very well, so congratulations there. I really like the customization, and with the same attention would have gone into the Oaths, Orders, Curses, etc.

It will be a great addition for the game, but only if campaigns are re-designed around the idea of the Summoner...or, the Eidolon, since the Summoner himself is now inconsequential . . .


kindredspirit wrote:

Of all the class concepts so far, I hate the Summoner the most. The heriocs have just shifted from the PC to the PET. Not only a bad move for the Summoner; the Eidolon will now be the centerpiece of most parties...well, at least they have a mascot. It will pretty much dictate the party theme as though; it's hard to represent the Knight of the Golden Dragon when your Summoner is stroking the fur of his pink octopus thingy...no good at all.

Having said all that...barring a few minor here's and there's, the Summoner was designed very well, so congratulations there. I really like the customization, and with the same attention would have gone into the Oaths, Orders, Curses, etc.

It will be a great addition for the game, but only if campaigns are re-designed around the idea of the Summoner...or, the Eidolon, since the Summoner himself is now inconsequential . . .

Yes and no. The pet definitely needs a tone down, but this is a playtest, so it's possible they threw everything in so we'd tell them what we didn't like.

I don't know about the summoner being inconsequential. The spell list is something they did very right with this class. He has a great list of crowd control and utility spells and, if you like them, summon monster spells.


I don't know about the summoner being inconsequential. The spell list is something they did very right with this class. He has a great list of crowd control and utility spells and, if you like them, summon monster spells.

I think the Summoner himself will become an afterthought in the game. The design is right, and the spell list is right, but the slow spell progression will set the Summoner in the "only if I have to" mode. In fact, most of the spells are geared toward buffing (either the Eidolon or other party members), so the Summoner will likely never directly engage an enemy unless pressed into it.

I love summoning. I really do. My only dislike is the pet.


Alright, I think I've figured it out. I know the reason why the summoner CAN'T be intelligence based.

So an Eidolon, right? Anyone can tell from a quick click on google that this refers to your astral double, the "body" your spirit possesses on the astral plane, which is where you go when you die right before you head off to Fraghalla or wherever it is adventurers go when they die.

Well, the summoner does this. He "finds" this astral creature, studies it all his life, but actually knows very little about it. EVEN AFTER such tell tale signs as it not being able to sustain itself when far away from you, that it can share health with you, that you can become one with it, that you can reshape it in your image, all these things that would have any self-respecting wizard saying "Oh, well obviously it and I are very closely connected. Ah-duh, I think it might be coming from me somehow." The summoner just says "Gee, I wonder if I should give him tentacles or an extra pair of arms next level?" The summoner DOESN'T know the origins of this creature, that, as soon becomes obvious to anyone with half a brain, DEFINITELY comes from him.

Therefore, the summoner is not nearly smart enough to be an intelligence based caster, and obviously gets by on chutzpah and cheek alone. He shapes his buddy with his overwhelming personality, but never takes the time to learn more about his own calling. His charisma is really all that keeps him alive.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The Summoner is an absolute BOMB and AWESOME for one major reason. So far, an all-caster party was pretty much screwed in the melee/beatstick/meatshield department. Especially in PF, where druid wildshape is no longer an automatic win.

And now hey presto, an arcane caster with his own beatstick pet ! Finally. Obviously, while designing the Summoner, Jason was smoking the same stuff (hobbit pipeweed, certainly) as when he wrote the PF Paladin.

Jason, smoke more of that stuff please. Especially when working on non-casters :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Summoners get Handle Animal because many summoned creatures are celestial or fiendish animals, and if you want them to do anything other than kill the nearest guy, you'll need Handle Animal to "push" them.

The templates don't give these animals any higher intelligence and thus must be treated as animals, since the summoner doesn't have any special ability to communicate with them.

Still once they hit higher levels they are dealing with more intelligent monsters and I feel would probably benefit greatly from having Diplomacy as a class skill (since that is the deal making skill).


Madcap Storm King wrote:

Alright, I think I've figured it out. I know the reason why the summoner CAN'T be intelligence based.

Well, that's certainly one interpretation. But there are others. One could even argue the Summoner CAN'T be charisma based.

Here's how I would put it: The Eidolon, as defined by the rulebook, is merely an outsider. It isn't necessarily the astral double or soul of the summoner, because that would limit summoners in a way that would make them not very interesting core classes.

So, how does the summoner get this outsider? He studies. Knowing and understanding the planes is intelligence based. Like the wizard, he shuts himself into his laboratory for long hours reading musty tomes, trying to figure out how to bind an outsider to his powerful mind. He doesn't befriend the creature like the druid, or he'd have to use social skills to control it. He isn't granted the creature through a holy bond like a paladin's pet (another charisma based char with a pet). No, he uses precise arcane formulas, words and gestures, and, at the end, he binds the creature with a perfectly crafted sigil upon its head.

He better be smart enough to be an int based caster, because he's messing with big forces. One mistake made during the intricacies of this summon could easily be his doom. His keen mind is the only thing that keeps him alive.

Also, remember, the eidolon isn't stat based. The summoner will have it either way. It's the spells that are stat based. I don't believe the summoner was supposed to have inherent magic like the sorcerer or use their natural magnetism to cast like the bard. They had to learn those spells.

Shadow Lodge

Madcap Storm King wrote:

Alright, I think I've figured it out. I know the reason why the summoner CAN'T be intelligence based.

So an Eidolon, right? Anyone can tell from a quick click on google that this refers to your astral double, the "body" your spirit possesses on the astral plane, which is where you go when you die right before you head off to Fraghalla or wherever it is adventurers go when they die.

Well, the summoner does this. He "finds" this astral creature, studies it all his life, but actually knows very little about it. EVEN AFTER such tell tale signs as it not being able to sustain itself when far away from you, that it can share health with you, that you can become one with it, that you can reshape it in your image, all these things that would have any self-respecting wizard saying "Oh, well obviously it and I are very closely connected. Ah-duh, I think it might be coming from me somehow." The summoner just says "Gee, I wonder if I should give him tentacles or an extra pair of arms next level?" The summoner DOESN'T know the origins of this creature, that, as soon becomes obvious to anyone with half a brain, DEFINITELY comes from him.

Therefore, the summoner is not nearly smart enough to be an intelligence based caster, and obviously gets by on chutzpah and cheek alone. He shapes his buddy with his overwhelming personality, but never takes the time to learn more about his own calling. His charisma is really all that keeps him alive.

The imaginary friend becomes real. See how simple that was?

Liberty's Edge

I like how the eidolon can evolve as a campaign progresses. That allows the player to really hone in on what his party needs.

And the spell list has absolutely no offense on it. Which is a nice twist


hogarth wrote:
I have to admit that I don't really like the lower level versions of spells. For instance, now I suppose that a wand of Teleport is possible, and wands/potions/scrolls of Haste just got significantly cheaper. Not to mention Summon Monster IX as a 6th level spell... :-/

Yes, that looks like a problem, especially with an artificer (or other kind of item creator) in the party. One possible solution would be to give it a different name (like the artificer's infusion, or incantation, or conjuration, or whatever), without changing the mechanics, so item creation would be out of question.


Or you could just place a note under the spell list defining that for the purpose of magic item creation the spells should use their Sorc/Wiz original levels.

Shadow Lodge

Eradarus wrote:
I like how the eidolon can evolve as a campaign progresses. That allows the player to really hone in on what his party needs.

No archer? No problem, I have an Eidolon!

Eradarus wrote:
And the spell list has absolutely no offense on it. Which is a nice twist

I wouldn't say they have no offensive spells, just not traditional ones.

Lv0: Acid Splash, Daze

Lv1: Daze Monster, Enlarge Person, Magic Fang, Reduce Person

Lv2: Alter Self, Bear's Endurance, Blur, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Glitterdust, Haste, Invisibility, Slow, Summon Swarm

Lv3: Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Dispel Magic(can dispel summons), Displacement, Mass Enlarge Person, Heroism, Greater Invisibility, Greater Magic Fang, Rage, Mass Reduce Person, Wall of FIre

Lv4: Baleful Polymorph, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cat's Grace, Hold Monster, Insect Plague,

Lv5: Creeping Doom, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Heroism, Planar Binding, Spell Turning

Lv6: Mass Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Incendiary Cloud, Greater Planar Binding


To add to what I have already posted elsewhere on this forum regarding the eidolon, I'm not sure it makes sense for an eidolon, at least at low levels, to be able to acquire ranks in most Knowledge skills. If something has spent most of its time (up until a Summoner called it up) hanging around on another plane then how is it going to know roughly when Golarion's Earthfall event was (Knowledge (History)), what the principle ports of Cheliax are (Knowledge (Geography)), the family tree of the ruler of Osirion (Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)), or who offers the cheapest fish at the local market (Knowledge (Local))?
I could see an eidolon acquiring Knowledge ranks as it spends more and more time on a world, but in the absence of further information on the nature of an eidolon I really can't see how a freshly minted one has any kind of specific knowledge relating to that world.


Would have to agree with some that the Summoner class itself needs a bigger variety of skills, more specifically knowledge-based ones. I have to admit to being surprised that he didn't have K.Planes and K.Dungeoneering at the very least so as to learn more about the creatures that he summons, deals with and using knowledge of the wierd creatures out there to have an effect on the Eidolon's form when it 'levels'.


llaletin wrote:
Would have to agree with some that the Summoner class itself needs a bigger variety of skills, more specifically knowledge-based ones. I have to admit to being surprised that he didn't have K.Planes and K.Dungeoneering at the very least so as to learn more about the creatures that he summons, deals with and using knowledge of the wierd creatures out there to have an effect on the Eidolon's form when it 'levels'.

Err... Summoner has Knowledge (all) as class skills.


Velderan wrote:


Well, that's certainly one interpretation. But there are others. One could even argue the Summoner CAN'T be charisma based.

I know. I was just running with an amusing (and not necessarily correct) explanation to counter the idea that they were based on intelligence. Charisma would still be important for the planar binding spells.

I do think that INT is still a good fit for the summoner, though. To be honest, INT and CHA are kind of in the same boat. INT is kind of important for a few class features and for skills, and CHA is just skills. At least WIS adds to will saves, but those other two scores are left out in the cold, minus casting applications. I do enjoy either one of them getting more attention.


I love the idea and execution of the class, but thanks to Huge size and many arms, I built a level 11 summoner's eidolon with better attack and damage than Valeros, the level 14 fighter, with comparable AC/saves and 75% of his hit points.

Is the eidolon too strong, or Valeros too weak?


Jonathan Drain wrote:

I love the idea and execution of the class, but thanks to Huge size and many arms, I built a level 11 summoner's eidolon with better attack and damage than Valeros, the level 14 fighter, with comparable AC/saves and 75% of his hit points.

Is the eidolon too strong, or Valeros too weak?

A bit of both. The iconics are not remotely optimized; they're made to mirror the artwork as much as possible and to be relatively easy to play for new players. The Eidolon is also generally considered at least a hair too strong at the moment.

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