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What types of core rulebooks would you like to come out past the Advanced Player's Guide?
I'd like to see the following:
Psionics Rule Book
Epic Level Rule Book
Advanced Player's Guide II: To include extra classes like Warlock, Blackguard, Ninja; and an alternate Divine Spellcasting System (I dislike that arcane and divine magic are basically the same...I think they should be very different).
Beyond that, I actually hope that the core rules portion of Pathfinder stops. I don't want Pathfinder to suffer the same bloat that has plagued every edition of Dungeons and Dragons. So after those three books, I would hope that the only "core" releases would be big books full of the following:
Feats & Alternate Class Abilities
Spells
Monsters
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I just wanted to add that, unlike most people that I've met, I'm not really a huge fan of prestige classes. A few are fine, but D&D went absolutely nuts with them...there were just way too many. And the vast majority of them didn't really accomplish much that couldn't have been done by simply multiclassing in one of the base classes.
Hell, if I were to have vast amounts of time to design my own RPG, I would do away with all but four classes: Warrior, Mage, Priest, and Rogue (and Psionic added in a supplement). Characters would pick one of these, and then be given a certain amount of points to buy class features. Class features for their own class would be cheaper, and there would probably be an oposition class that was even more expensive than the other classes. This would allow for much more customization, yet it would still provide benefits to those who remained a "pure" member of their base class.
Creative Director
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Advanced Player's Guide II: To include extra classes like Warlock, Blackguard, Ninja; and an alternate Divine Spellcasting System (I dislike that arcane and divine magic are basically the same...I think they should be very different).
Actually... if all goes according to our current plan, there won't be a need for Advanced Player's Guide II. We hope to be able to say all we need to say in one book, and don't WANT to set a precedent of doing a new one of these every year.
The other books you mention are MUCH more likely.
It's hard to come up with something that hasn't been done several times before. Race books, class books, even terrain books.
Mention was made a while back on a thread about guide books for gaming at early, mid and high level with specifics of coping at such levels. That's what I'd like to see after the APG.
Cheers
Mark
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I thought of one more book...a tech book. It could provide varying degrees of technology, from the flintlock to ray guns.
Going back to my suggestion for an alternate divine magic system, I think that arcane and divine magic sould be as different from each other as D&D 3.5 made magic and psionics. It just doesn't make sense to me that with such different sources of power, the systems are carbon-copies.
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Something for running a larger world: mass-battles, trade-routes, guild wars, diplomacy. Something Birthright-like in scope.
See, I've always been of the opinion that mass-battle rules have little place in D&D (and now Pathfinder). If the DM creates a war scenario, then he should already have planned how it turns out. The players can influence this, yes, but it would be more through diplomacy, sabatoge, assassination, or the like. But to me a DM spending hours using mass-battle rules to determine the outcome of a battle that the PCs have only a minor effect on is ridiculous. Sometimes rules need to be put to the side, and storytelling should take center stage. If the best thing for the campaign is to have Army A defeat Army B, just have them do it.
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Something for running a larger world: mass-battles, trade-routes, guild wars, diplomacy. Something Birthright-like in scope.But to me a DM spending hours using mass-battle rules to determine the outcome of a battle that the PCs have only a minor effect on is ridiculous. Sometimes rules need to be put to the side, and storytelling should take center stage.
I strongly agree, for the typical adventure.
What I had in mind was the PCs being able to get some use of that keep and the 100 or so followers they had. I liked some of the stuff in the old 'Companion' box where the PCs scope of influence became wider than the dungeon, or the wilderness on the way to the dungeon. The PCs would be responsible for directing the war at the high level and also for set-piece battles against major enemies while the battle raged around them, and intelligence and espionage.
I played a game 20 years ago where we carved ourselves a small kingdom and defended it. I'm really looking forward to Kingmaker.
I'm not thinking of just crunch in this idea, but guides on creating good fluff too. See the FR book 'Power of Faerun' for a good example.
Beyond that, I actually hope that the core rules portion of Pathfinder stops. I don't want Pathfinder to suffer the same bloat that has plagued every edition of Dungeons and Dragons.
I agree. Three core books is quite enough, thank you.
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I think my main problem with most of the 3.5 bloat was that they pushed up 1-2 books per mouth, despite the fact that they barely had anything to fill them with. The environmental books are a great example. I thought they sounded great, and they could have been if it had been a whole book devoted to environmental dangers, strategies for monsters native to that environment to use against characters, magically versions of the environment, etc. But instead what the books turned out to be was a SLIGHT expansion on the already existing rules for severe environments, and then they threw a bunch of highly specialized prestige classes at us. Honestly, without prestige classes, every 3.5 release in the last couple of years of that system's life could have been collected in one or two books. It became so much filler...probably the main reason why I have a distaste for prestige classes to this date.
I realize that you don't have to buy the books, but usually there's was just enough good sprinkled in with the filler to make it at least somewhat tempting. From what I've seen of Pathfinder so far, I would expect that it will have much more of the good, so I'm hoping they dispense with the filler. I'm hoping that they don't feel the need to release a minimum of one book per month, since that inevitable leads to inferior products all around.
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I think my main problem with most of the 3.5 bloat was that they pushed up 1-2 books per mouth, despite the fact that they barely had anything to fill them with. The environmental books are a great example. I thought they sounded great, and they could have been if it had been a whole book devoted to environmental dangers, strategies for monsters native to that environment to use against characters, magically versions of the environment, etc. But instead what the books turned out to be was a SLIGHT expansion on the already existing rules for severe environments, and then they threw a bunch of highly specialized prestige classes at us.
+1
It was the formula that every book MUST have sections on:
- New feats
- New prestige classes
- New uses for skills
- New spells
that lead to this, in my opinion. The fact that they were trying to push far too many books out of the door each year made it worse.
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While I have no interest in epic/psionics/savage species, etc., if Paizo ended up doing it to make a chunk of their fans happy, so be it.
I'd be happy with an annual Bestiary, maybe compilations of various information like Character Traits, Prestige Classes and even the god articles from the AP books (when it finally runs it's course). I wouldn't mind Paizo tackling the rules/mechanics for a book on ships and the sea as it is one of the more challenging aspects to adventure and DM in. A similar book on traps and riddles would be cool too.
Okay, Paizo are planning to release 3 odd rule books a year, this will not affect their AP production as that is still the true focus of Pathfinder.
If your not interested in the rulebooks don't buy them, if they don't sell well Paizo will stop doing them.
I'd say its unlikely that we'll see the sillyness of prestige classes in late 3.5, we will probably see an Oriental themed book, Psionics, Epic, and Bestiary III, the earliest of these won't be till 2011, and thats stuff to last until May 2012. So no rush, they have plenty of time to come up with interesting ideas for rulebooks. And given paizo's excellent track record, I have alot of faith.
The requests for box sets are a regular recurrence, and as far as I recall, Lisa always says that, as much as she loves them, they're a business disaster and Paizo won't be doing them.
I suggest:
1. No new rule books. I just don't think anymore are needed. Let the game breathe for a few years and then have an update but don't trickle new rules every few months or so. In my group we just don't buy the new rule books after the core stuff. We rarely have in any version (1,2,3,3.5 and now PF) and I bet many groups are like ours.
2. Concentrate on adventures. I would like to see more "out of AP" adventure series of two or three modules focusing on some kind of event or adventuring locale (non-setting specific).
3. How about taking a crack at a boxed set mega-adventure? This would essentially be an adventure path released all at once. It could be based around a single story (like a "Blood War" type of campaign or "Night Below" type of adventure) or even a campaign that defines a new world (or part of the Golarian universe) along the way.
I do believe the poster was asking specifically about rulebooks. There are people who write their own adventures and game worlds. We generally dont have alot of interest in AP's or prebuilt adventures. We want rulebooks. I do subscribe to the AP but its really only for ideas, I never have, never will run a pre built adventure. Not to mention, Paizo now has an RPG line that needs to be supported. I highly doubt paizo is going to abandon it. And while there are groups that do not go past the core, there are many that will buy many new rule books. Those fans (myself included) should be provided for as well. I definately dont think theres a reason for the nonsense 1book a month thats 3 quarters filler plan, but paizo's current plan of 2 hardback rulebooks a year sounds pretty good to me. Enough for there to be stuff for me to look forward to without being overloaded with new books.
As for what I'd like post APG, I have to agree on the Psionics and Oriental Adventures themes. I'd also like a book that gives a descent system for playing as monsters. As for epic level, I am on the fence about that, the concept is facinating, but in practice it is very very hard. 20th level characters are pretty rediculous, and play at that level gets messy. Dming at that level gets messier. I would love an epic level system that worked, but I have never been certain how a system can be created to continue to progress from 20 without going kind of wild, but still building on existing classes. I've played 2 epic level games, and though the idea of taking on the gods was fun, it just kind of went haywire real fast.
What I do want to see is support for the APG material. If an epic level handbook comes out, I want to see support for the 6 classes in the APG in it, if there is a book of spells, or savage species kind of book, again i want to see (where applicable) the APG classes get treatment in there too.
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I want an Unearthed Arcana style book with variant rules that could have made it into PFRPG but did not for the sake of backwards compatibility, and any other variant options for players and DMs.
I would also be interested in an alternate take on epic levels, or an alternate take on lower levels (like E6 for example). My final request would be a detailed book on natural hazards and traps (a catalog of non monster challenges with GOOD rules for making your own).
love,
malkav
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Creative Director
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What I do want to see is support for the APG material. If an epic level handbook comes out, I want to see support for the 6 classes in the APG in it, if there is a book of spells, or savage species kind of book, again i want to see (where applicable) the APG classes get treatment in there too.
Same here. And cutting the APG pipe off at one book is a great reason for this: we don't want to overwhelm US either with too many new rules. We want to be able to expand upon and use the new classes and options, after all, and doing too many of these types of books will outpace our ability to support them.
What I do want to see is support for the APG material. If an epic level handbook comes out, I want to see support for the 6 classes in the APG in it, if there is a book of spells, or savage species kind of book, again i want to see (where applicable) the APG classes get treatment in there too.Same here. And cutting the APG pipe off at one book is a great reason for this: we don't want to overwhelm US either with too many new rules. We want to be able to expand upon and use the new classes and options, after all, and doing too many of these types of books will outpace our ability to support them.
That just made me very happy with PFRPG, as I was a little worried about no support! Though the APG classes seem intigrated enough that support should be flawless and easy.
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I wouldn't mind a Pathfinder book on other genres every so often. Granted an Asian flavored book sort of fits that concept, I'd like something more like Modern, or fantasy western.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind something like this made smaller softback books, like the companion. Come to think of it, publishing other genres in smaller gazateer like books might be the best way or going outside the core.
I do believe the poster was asking specifically about rulebooks. There are people who write their own adventures and game worlds. We generally don't have a lot of interest in AP's or prebuilt adventures. We want rulebooks ... And while there are groups that do not go past the core, there are many that will buy many new rule books. Those fans (myself included) should be provided for as well ... As for what I'd like post APG, I have to agree on the Psionics and Oriental Adventures themes. I'd also like a book that gives a descent system for playing as monsters. As for epic level, I am on the fence about that, the concept is...
I have to agree with Kolokotroni here. All my material has always been done from scratch, yet I'm a charter subscriber to the Pathfinder AP, which in my mind is the spiritual successor to Dungeon. I do it just for ideas and new monsters. It kills me not to subscribe to Chronicles too - I wish it wasn't such a mix of world-specific and general material.
Personally, the epic book and savage species were among my favorite books put out by WoTC, and I've lamented for years that there was never a true 3.5 update to the epic book. I like the locale-specific sourcebooks (Stormwrack et. al), I like having new feats and prestige classes, and I like new spells. templates and monsters - it means there's always some new corner of something I haven't yet read and can go "oh cool!" and use.
I can live without an epic level handbook. I'm perfectly happy wrapping up a game at level 20 by having the characters work on taking over the world or becoming demigods or taking down Asmodeus or whatever.
By the way, I run an epic campaign and have since 2006 - there's no universal law that says an epic campaign has to be over-the-top ridiculous. Stop by any of the Connecticut conventions (ConnCon, ConnectiCon or AnonyCon) and sit at my epic 3.5 table and you'll see what I mean.
Actually... if all goes according to our current plan, there won't be a need for Advanced Player's Guide II. We hope to be able to say all we need to say in one book, and don't WANT to set a precedent of doing a new one of these every year.
Hear, hear.
I want to see a compendium of New Monsters introduced in Pathfinder APs, Modules, etc. all updated with the new rules.
Also, Psionics update would be nice, but Dreamscarred Press is filling that gap.
Getting away from the RPG end, I'd like to see some high-level adventures or AP, especially a sequel to RotRL. You could make this full AP where each advnture focuses on one of the six remaining runelords.
All told, I would love to see the following books from Paizo:
- Pathfinder Roleplaying Game (done)
- Pathfinder Bestiary (done)
- Pathfinder Bestiary II-III, but beyond that, only add monsters in regional books; see below.
- Pathfinder Gamemastery Guide (in the works)
- Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide (in the works)
- Pathfinder Psionics, with a solid integration with existing magic. One thing I've always disliked about psionics (and I enjoy psionics plenty) is how it's either -exactly- like magic (i.e. psionics are affected by antimagic) or -completely- unlike it (i.e. spell resistance doesn't affect psionics). After the publication of the Bestiary, I think it's important to ensure that future modular systems like psionics take into account how previously published material will interact with it. This isn't a huge priority for me, though.
- Pathfinder Campaign Setting (done), but revisited to incorporate PFRPG rules, after PFRPG has been reprinted with errata.
- Regional books akin to FR's Silver Marches et al. I'd be primarily interested in fluff supported by a bit of crunch instead of the other way around -- each book might have one to three prestige classes and maybe five to 10 feats, plus a smattering of traits, but other than that, all fluff.
- Pathfinder Technology. This too is not a huge deal, but it would be interesting to see a book that describes a variety of technology levels, all the way from Stone Age to future tech.
- Golarion In Motion. Take Golarion, and subject it to some hugely cataclysmic event -- volcanic eruption, death of a god, worldwide floods, gates opening to the Abyss left and right, or whatever else. How would it change the face of the world? I would -love- to see a series of books that describe how the world might change with any given catastrophe.
I'll add more if I think of them.
- Golarion In Motion. Take Golarion, and subject it to some hugely cataclysmic event -- volcanic eruption, death of a god, worldwide floods, gates opening to the Abyss left and right, or whatever else. How would it change the face of the world? I would -love- to see a series of books that describe how the world might change with any given catastrophe.
I can gaurantee you this won't happen, ther may be changes, even big changes, but something that apocalyptic? I bet not, and certainly not in fiction. It's a big lesson learned from FR, and a bad move for Golarion.
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Pathfinder Psionics, with a solid integration with existing magic. One thing I've always disliked about psionics (and I enjoy psionics plenty) is how it's either -exactly- like magic (i.e. psionics are affected by antimagic) or -completely- unlike it (i.e. spell resistance doesn't affect psionics). After the publication of the Bestiary, I think it's important to ensure that future modular systems like psionics take into account how previously published material will interact with it. This isn't a huge priority for me, though.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting (done), but revisited to incorporate PFRPG rules, after PFRPG has been reprinted with errata.
Regional books akin to FR's Silver Marches et al. I'd be primarily interested in fluff supported by a bit of crunch instead of the other way around -- each book might have one to three prestige classes and maybe five to 10 feats, plus a smattering of traits, but other than that, all fluff.
Pathfinder Technology. This too is not a huge deal, but it would be interesting to see a book that describes a variety of technology levels, all the way from Stone Age to future tech.
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I have to agree with most of this. In fact, over the past 2 years i sat down with 6 friends and wrote a technology book for pathfinder (not kidding either). Its divided into 5 era's
1 - dark ages/classic fantasy2 - Victorian/steam punk
3 - modern/contemporary
4 - near future/cyberpunk
5 - far future/space opera
with that 168 page pdf, i have no need for a pre-planed adventure or campaign specific guide ever...
with that said the biggest things on my Wish List:
Core Rules (done)
Bestiary (done)
GM Guide (working)
Advanced Core Rules/APG (working/testing)
Epic (must have)
Psionics (really want)
War/Mass combat Book
not necessary but still interested in:
"Playing Monsters" book (highly interested)
Theme Book - such as Asian/steam punk/future/etc.
environmental book (all of the environments in one book)
As for the content in that book, i really hope it is NOT FILLED with spells, feats, prestige classes, races. Maybe 3 or 4 Prestige classes and mostly rules and fluff to handle said content of book...
If i have to flip through 10 source books to find that darn feat, or monster stat block, or spell i wanted to use like 3.5 i will loose it. Because WotC tactic was this very thing, I've had to just about ban all books from my game except Pathfinder Core, APG, Spell Compendium, and Magic Item Compendium.
PS sorry for the long post, i just felt like i had to get that off my chest.
Asian themed book
Savage Species type book
Environment Books
A large book of Side Adventures, like the old Book of Lairs
I have really liked pathfinder. I recently gave away my 3-4 edition non PF books I did save one.
Legends and Lairs "Monsters Handbook".
So my vote would be a product similar to it.
Thanks for all the good work Pazio, please keep producing high quality content.
Someone else mentioned a mass combat system. I have played some of these, to name two - AD&D Battle System and the recent WOTC miniatures system. I think there are many inherent flaws in trying to combine a mass combat system and a role-playing game, but with its community feedback Paizo could solve it. I really liked the introduction of the WOTC miniatures and skirmish rules, I am not sure if they are open source or not.
I can gaurantee you this won't happen, ther may be changes, even big changes, but something that apocalyptic? I bet not, and certainly not in fiction. It's a big lesson learned from FR, and a bad move for Golarion.
- Golarion In Motion. Take Golarion, and subject it to some hugely cataclysmic event -- volcanic eruption, death of a god, worldwide floods, gates opening to the Abyss left and right, or whatever else. How would it change the face of the world? I would -love- to see a series of books that describe how the world might change with any given catastrophe.
I think if done properly this type of thing could work. It doesn't have to be cannon, just give idea how such cataclysmic events could effect Golarion, much like Requiem for a God or When the Sky Falls.
Oh, one more thing.
I don't want Pathfinder to suffer the same bloat that has plagued every edition of Dungeons and Dragons.You know the awesome thing about bloat? Nobody is making you use those books. I know people bag on, say, Incarnum, but there's no reason you need characters who draw on the power of Blue in your game just because Magic of Incarnum is out there. But someone really enjoys characters powered by BLUE! so that book is fantastic for them. Splatbooks, monster books, alternate systems, whatever, it's all good (as long as it's good).
So feel free to bloat the hell out of PF, Paizo folks. It's a good thing.
I 100% agree with this.
I'd like to see a Grimtooth's Traps style of book (in addition to many of the other wonderful ideas listed here).
I 100% agree with this.Oh, one more thing.
I don't want Pathfinder to suffer the same bloat that has plagued every edition of Dungeons and Dragons.You know the awesome thing about bloat? Nobody is making you use those books. I know people bag on, say, Incarnum, but there's no reason you need characters who draw on the power of Blue in your game just because Magic of Incarnum is out there. But someone really enjoys characters powered by BLUE! so that book is fantastic for them. Splatbooks, monster books, alternate systems, whatever, it's all good (as long as it's good).
So feel free to bloat the hell out of PF, Paizo folks. It's a good thing.
I 100% disagree - excessive PC rules and options are a headache, I dont want them. I do want modules, AP's, monsters, situations for the players to get into and out of. I have only liked less than 50% of the RPG rules but about 100% of the adventures
Something for running a larger world: mass-battles, trade-routes, guild wars, diplomacy. Something Birthright-like in scope.
Combine it with something like the Stronghold Builders Guide (which I loved), as well as a snippet on truly epic construction (like the bridge in Oppara, or Aroden's Arch).
Sort of an overall Ruler's Guide, with construction going from wizard's towers and hamlets up to the absurd (things that'll REALLY give you a reason to invade a neighbor for funding), combat from squad and platoon skirmishes up to multinational conflicts (would love to see a full army wiped out by a spawn of Rovagug) as well as truly massive weapons of war (re: previous spawn as well as things like animate sphinxes and whatever insanity Nex would have come up with), as well as a fairly simple but comprehensive trade/diplomacy system.
If all that's too much, though, I'll settle for a plain chocolate candy bar.
I 100% disagree - excessive PC rules and options are a headache, I dont want them. I do want modules, AP's, monsters, situations for the players to get into and out of. I have only liked less than 50% of the RPG rules but about 100% of the adventuresI 100% agree with this.Oh, one more thing.
I don't want Pathfinder to suffer the same bloat that has plagued every edition of Dungeons and Dragons.You know the awesome thing about bloat? Nobody is making you use those books. I know people bag on, say, Incarnum, but there's no reason you need characters who draw on the power of Blue in your game just because Magic of Incarnum is out there. But someone really enjoys characters powered by BLUE! so that book is fantastic for them. Splatbooks, monster books, alternate systems, whatever, it's all good (as long as it's good).
So feel free to bloat the hell out of PF, Paizo folks. It's a good thing.
And some people like rules and options and not adventures, and some people like both. If you don't like something, don't buy it but just because it's not something you enjoy doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place for other people.
That being said, I know that Paizo is against this type of bloat, so I'm not expecting them to contribute to it. Which is why I'm happy there's Pathfinder compatible products.
I can gaurantee you this won't happen, ther may be changes, even big changes, but something that apocalyptic? I bet not, and certainly not in fiction. It's a big lesson learned from FR, and a bad move for Golarion.
Never guarantee something you have no control over. Every campaign setting has some element of momentum and motion. Even this one.
If a publisher says otherwise, it's a lie to make you feel better and because everyone still whines about old WoD.
However, what might make you feel better is that the degree of momentum and movement is relative. It doesn't have to be as bad as some previous bad exprience you've had; and there are decent ways to handle it
Paizo is just unvieling it very slowly. The setting is just two years old. It is still springtime fresh. There's no reason to go there at this time.
When you see merfolk having a large role in some event.. like an AP.. that will be the first sign.
EDIT: Ehh. I see you were repying to the implied idea of a setting reboot. Yeah, I wouldn't expect that either. Some degree of Metaplot, yes. Setting Reboot, no. Consider my reply to be revised.
I want to say a Psionics Book, because I know everyone in the Pit except Dr. Jacobs must dread the very idea. And also Dreamscarred is working on it and I have faith in those lads for some reason.
I want to see some friggan weapons that improve with continued use (ie. Legacy Weapons). I don't care what sort of book they appear in.
And I want Epic Rules. So there is a reason for players to continue their characters after an AP is over with.. and because the idea is cool. Even if previous attempts were not.
I 100% disagree - excessive PC rules and options are a headache, I dont want them. I do want modules, AP's, monsters, situations for the players to get into and out of. I have only liked less than 50% of the RPG rules but about 100% of the adventuresNobody is making you use those books.
Seriously.
Nobody is sneaking into your wallet and taking your money and replacing it with those books.
If Paizo make rulebooks they make less of the other stuff. That's not a bad reason to try to persuade them to avoid product lines you dont like.
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Don't rock the bloat!
Seriously, the problem with bloat is it introduces more chances for conflicting rules, which is what Paizo and the majority of players don't want. If you want conflicting rules or options that aren't covered by Paizo in Pathfinder then check out 3PPs; they are covering a lot of ground in that department.
Also just because Paizo is indicating they are stopping with the APG doesn't mean there won't be new classes. It just means there won't be new classes in line with the core, because if the proper number of options are offered it'll be possible to build just about every variant with the right amount of tweaking. I'm pretty sure future classes with be tied to rules not covered by the core, such as asian and psionic mechanics.
Don't rock the bloat!
Seriously, the problem with bloat is it introduces more chances for conflicting rules, which is what Paizo and the majority of players don't want. If you want conflicting rules or options that aren't covered by Paizo in Pathfinder then check out 3PPs; they are covering a lot of ground in that department.
Also just because Paizo is indicating they are stopping with the APG doesn't mean there won't be new classes. It just means there won't be new classes in line with the core, because if the proper number of options are offered it'll be possible to build just about every variant with the right amount of tweaking. I'm pretty sure future classes with be tied to rules not covered by the core, such as asian and psionic mechanics.
On the flip side, "bloat" leeds to more choices if you want to use them. Like MiB has said, if you don't like it don't buy it. I'm enthusiastic that there's 3PPs out there to help me get my rulebook fix while Pazio hits the core stuff and adventures.