Goblin Squad Member
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This was inspired by the "If I Had a Hammer" thread, but I think this could be a topic of its own.
Some have concerns about game mechanics producing unrealistic situations, but I think realism is relative to the setting. Magic in general is unrealistic, but in fantasy you can still aim for internal consistency or verisimilitude. GW seems to be building the fiction in such a way that necessary MMO mechanics are explained by something in the setting.
I guess the biggest example is character death. An MMO that includes PvP and permanent character death is probably unmarketable. Most of a decade before LotRO came out, Sierra had the license to produce Middle Earth Online and were going to try permadeath. That linked story does indicate that there were management problems which ended up killing the game, but the permadeath aspect is also called out as being "crazy". GW has worked repeated player resurrection into their fiction by saying that PCs are marked by the goddess Pharasma.
It seems that what looks like breaks in the story for game mechanic needs may actually have an in-story cause. They don't completely collapse the fourth wall, but there's much less need to overlook things that would breach it in a regular PFRPG game.
Maybe the souls chosen for repeated resurrection by Pharasma also have abilities granted by other deities, like seeing an item's properties just by examining it.
Maybe we're all being trained to fight in a coming apocalypse whenever Groetus decides to make its move? Our little corner of the RK could be a sort of Highlander-meets-Valhalla training ground preparing an army to defend our material plane reality from Entropy itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Maybe we're all being trained to fight in a coming apocalypse whenever Groetus decides to make its move? Our little corner of the RK could be a sort of Highlander-meets-Valhalla training ground preparing an army to defend our material plane reality from Entropy itself.
If it were so, I'd motion that True Neutral as an alignment could be trying to unite the 'four corners' of the alignments to resist the ultimate nemesis of life itself, forming a third axis of opposition (Good/Evil, Chaos/Law, Life/Entropy).
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Goblin Squad Member
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This was inspired by the "If I Had a Hammer" thread, but I think this could be a topic of its own.
Some have concerns about game mechanics producing unrealistic situations, but I think realism is relative to the setting. Magic in general is unrealistic, but in fantasy you can still aim for internal consistency or verisimilitude. GW seems to be building the fiction in such a way that necessary MMO mechanics are explained by something in the setting.
I guess the biggest example is character death. An MMO that includes PvP and permanent character death is probably unmarketable. Most of a decade before LotRO came out, Sierra had the license to produce Middle Earth Online and were going to try permadeath. That linked story does indicate that there were management problems which ended up killing the game, but the permadeath aspect is also called out as being "crazy". GW has worked repeated player resurrection into their fiction by saying that PCs are marked by the goddess Pharasma.
It seems that what looks like breaks in the story for game mechanic needs may actually have an in-story cause. They don't completely collapse the fourth wall, but there's much less need to overlook things that would breach it in a regular PFRPG game.
Maybe the souls chosen for repeated resurrection by Pharasma also have abilities granted by other deities, like seeing an item's properties just by examining it.
Maybe we're all being trained to fight in a coming apocalypse whenever Groetus decides to make its move? Our little corner of the RK could be a sort of Highlander-meets-Valhalla training ground preparing an army to defend our material plane reality from Entropy itself.
Pharasma letting any soul come back after dying pretty much breaks the setting.
Her Job and Existence are solely designed around not allowing this to happen. She does not like Immortality for this very reason. She would not just allow people to come back from the dead as it violates her reason for being.
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Unless the alternative was worse. Maybe it's some inobvious path to repairing prophecy (which is also one of her domains) and if it's not repaired she'll eventually be unable to properly forsee each creature's death when it's born, and everything breaks down to chaos.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actualy liked LOTRO approach alot better (although it was also more suitable to the low magic setting of the IP).
You character never actualy died but was simply "defeated"....conceptualy this could take the form of simply being forced to retreat, being incapacitated and dragged away from the battle-field by allies...or just "left for dead".
I think that tends to be alot less immersion breaking in general then how most MMO's handle it. With the high-magic setting of Pathfinder, ressurection is alot less jarring/problematic then it would be in Middle Earth for example.... but in general, I still tend to like the... "You didn't get killed just incapacitated to the point you can no longer fight"... mechanism that LOTRO used, for me it presents less problems then frequent and commonplace ressurection.
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Pharasma letting any soul come back after dying pretty much breaks the setting.
Her Job and Existence are solely designed around not allowing this to happen. She does not like Immortality for this very reason. She would not just allow people to come back from the dead as it violates her reason for being.
There are certain things in an MMORPG that you just have to handwave and move on...Death and coming back via Spirit Healers are among them.
I actually liked LOTRO approach a lot better ... for me it presents less problems then frequent and commonplace resurrection.
The only place where that kind of instant resurrection makes sense is in the Matrix, where you just get forcibly unjacked.
I'm sorry that some of you are going to be disappointed, then:
To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms
And...
$20 - Twice-Marked of Pharasma
All characters in Pathfinder Online are marked by Pharasma and are thus able to return from the dead at the soulbinding points. You bear the same mark as all other characters but you have a second, distinctive mark
as well. None know why you bear this mark, nor what it may portend in the future, but be sure that Fate has many surprises in store for those who are Twice-Chosen by the Lady of Graves. The bearer of this second Mark will have access to content and mechanical benefits distinct to those who are Twice Marked! One Twice-Marked of Pharasma Add-On is required for each character. You may purchase this Add-On multiple times.
I thought it was common knowledge that the repeated resurrection is neither handwaving you're supposed to ignore, nor a 'not actually dead' system like LotRO or the Matrix. Pharasma has indeed chosen to suspend her usual rules for some reason, so if that invalidates her purpose and "breaks the setting"... well, I suppose being in a state of denial is nothing new when it comes to dealing with certain issues. Playing your character as a selective amnesiac could work.
The training-for-Ragnarok idea is my own guess for the reason behind Pharasma suspending the rules. When the last mortal dies, so does she and the rest of Golarion's reality, and the moonlet representing Groetus gets a little closer to the Boneyard all the time. The souls of those who die without a divine patron/matron remain in the Boneyard, and Pharasma can use them to repel Groetus for a while, but there probably aren't many atheists in a world full of obvious clerical magic.
If they do go with something like our characters being chosen and prepared to fight against the end of the world, maybe my Apocalypse Day idea could be a sort of test run.
Unless the alternative was worse. Maybe it's some inobvious path to repairing prophecy (which is also one of her domains) and if it's not repaired she'll eventually be unable to properly forsee each creature's death when it's born, and everything breaks down to chaos.
Or maybe Aroden's apparent death was part of the plan, and the resultant breaking of prophecy was intentional. It could be that the breaking of long-term prophecy provides some room for preventing Groetus' eventual destruction of reality. Aroden was the patron of humanity, and Pharasma has domain over death and prophecy, so if any two deities could conspire to do something like that, they'd have the motive and ability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm the god of death my whole job is to make sure that when people die they go where they are supposed to be. Its my entire being.
Does it make sense at all that people who die come back to life, because I wake up one morning and go nope I'm not doing it anymore. I'm just going to let people go back to living despite having been killed. I completely and totally hate immortality and strongly believe when people die thats it the end no second chances.
Its pretty game breaking in the setting.
Pharasma is all for everything dies. Pharasma isn't good its her job to make sure everything that dies goes where its supposed.
She's all for Groetus destroying reality, because as the God of Death its what she is.
Her not doing what gives her existence would be like gravity suddenly deciding it hates being down all the time and deciding everything now goes up.
Her church would split up. Entire groups of them would go mad and start doing everything possible to make damn sure these people who don't stay dead do stay dead. Dogs and cats sleeping together end of the world type stuff would begin happening.
Then some dude would step in and Kill Pharasma and replace her with someone that would actually do the job before the entire universe came to an end.
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Pharasma is also the Goddess of birth and fate. Perhaps the heroes of the River Kingdoms have been marked by fate in some way, and she brings those back to life that have not achieved their proper fate (or fulfilled the proper prophecy). Perhaps the death of Aroden and the breaking of that prophecy have forced her hand to subsequently resurrect marked heroes. Plenty of options there to allow this to not break the setting.
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Its pretty game breaking in the setting.
Are you addressing the dev team? They've already said Pharasma is responsible for the repeated resurrections. If you'd rather have the permanent death system that your understanding of Pharasma would insist on, then you'll have to take it up with them, but I'm pretty sure they'll say "no" if they answer at all.
This thread is meant for discussing in-character reasons for game-mechanic choices. Repeated resurrections are only one example. The threading system is another, and the reputation system could represent your character spreading word of someone else's deeds to the unseen NPCs, who then pass the stories around the community. Maybe the ability to see all the properties of an item is a blessing from Torag or Abadar.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There's something special about this section of the Crusader Road, and people who have been Marked by Pharasma have an unusual urge to come here.
You find yourself marked by Pharasma, and can't quite explain why. Will you ignore this new development, exploit your new-found immortality-of-a-sort for personal gain, or seek to discover the reasons behind it (and possibly (but not likely) find yourself venturing into the halls of Pharasma to ask the question yourself several expansions down the line)?
"I don't understand it, therefore it couldn't happen" is never the right way to address a mystery.
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Pharasma mark not necessarily would be a permanent mark. We can just imagine that it is occurring for a certain period of time in order to obbey an important profecy. That doesn't mean the marked ones are immortal forever, they just were turned immortal to acomplish their role in this profecy.
Another explanation could be Pharasma was somehow forced to allow that by a superior God or to keep her word in relation to another God demands.
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Then why is Aroden dead?
He wasn't supposed to die.
She knew he was going to die.
She let him die.
You just answered part of the mystery.
She let him die...and now prophecy is going awry. Maybe mistakes are being mended and Pharasma has marked certain mortals to try to make amends?
Or maybe she had no part in his death, and some other force is at play? She is trying to counter that in some way?
Maybe Aroden and Pharasma made a deal that none other know of, and the mark of Pharasma was part of that deal?
Fantasy is so awesome, no?
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Well how about this....
A new prophecy has been found/given/spoken that details the end of existence if the Worldwound isn't dealt with. So some deity (maybe Pharasma?) hatched a plan to reincarnate these chosen adventurers until they are powerful enough to deal with the worldwound.
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Well how about this....
A new prophecy has been found/given/spoken that details the end of existence if the Worldwound isn't dealt with. So some deity (maybe Pharasma?) hatched a plan to reincarnate these chosen adventurers until they are powerful enough to deal with the worldwound.
Oh, nice one! Maybe another group is being prepared to deal with the Eye of Abendego?
I'd still like to tie in Groetus somehow. Seeing that it was going to consume reality eventually must have been foreseen back when long-term Prophecy was working properly, so Aroden, patron of humanity, conspired with Pharasma to break Prophecy and create enough uncertainty in the system that nothing is truly 'inevitable' anymore. The Worldwound and other permanent disasters are a side effect of that, and must now be dealt with.
Fantasy is so awesome, no?
Yeah, a lot of this is just letting our human tendency for hyperactive pattern-matching run wild, drawing tenuous connections and running with them regardless of evidence. Doing that in the real world produces conspiracy theorism, but here, fantastical fiction is kind of the point. :)
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Then why is Aroden dead?
He wasn't supposed to die.
She knew he was going to die.
She let him die.You just answered part of the mystery.
She let him die...and now prophecy is going awry. Maybe mistakes are being mended and Pharasma has marked certain mortals to try to make amends?
Or maybe she had no part in his death, and some other force is at play? She is trying to counter that in some way?
Maybe Aroden and Pharasma made a deal that none other know of, and the mark of Pharasma was part of that deal?
Fantasy is so awesome, no?
The last item seems most probable to me, as certain wording in various Paizo sources seem to hint that Aroden may be out of the picture but maybe not quite dead. While he was/is a human elevated to godhood, he was/is an important one - the god of Humanity (humans being one of the most numerous of all the races on Golarion, though other races seem as numerous, like Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs and in certain places Gnolls, probably due to high birth rates and less gestation time).
Pharasma sacrificed part of her portfolio, Prophesy, in allowing Aroden to "die". That's a big blow to any PFRPG deity. Thus, she had to have a really good reason for allowing whatever happened to take place. If Aroden is truly dead, or has somehow otherwise been removed from being able to contact his followers or anyone else in the solar system (or beyond) that Golarion exists in, there had to have been a purpose for it to have not been something Pharasma would inform the other deities about beforehand, and to accept a loss of a major power.
My guess is, and it is only a guess, Aroden is hiding in some demi-plane cut off from other planes of existence until such time as he is needed to return due to some plot hatched by both Groetus and the Four Horsemen.
Well how about this....
A new prophecy has been found/given/spoken that details the end of existence if the Worldwound isn't dealt with. So some deity (maybe Pharasma?) hatched a plan to reincarnate these chosen adventurers until they are powerful enough to deal with the worldwound.
Oh, nice one! Maybe another group is being prepared to deal with the Eye of Abendego?
I'd still like to tie in Groetus somehow. Seeing that it was going to consume reality eventually must have been foreseen back when long-term Prophecy was working properly, so Aroden, patron of humanity, conspired with Pharasma to break Prophecy and create enough uncertainty in the system that nothing is truly 'inevitable' anymore. The Worldwound and other permanent disasters are a side effect of that, and must now be dealt with.
Fantasy is so awesome, no?Yeah, a lot of this is just letting our human tendency for hyperactive pattern-matching run wild, drawing tenuous connections and running with them regardless of evidence. Doing that in the real world produces conspiracy theorism, but here, fantastical fiction is kind of the point. :)
If the Devs haven't already come up with an air tight storyline, it would be cool to get something ironed out and see it told within the game world :D
In most games when they try and put lore into quest dialog, I end up not reading it because there are just too many quests to do. But with very few PvE quests, if they add lore into the game in an engaging way I would take the time to read it. Books, scrolls, speakers in settlements, even temple services, all would be cool ways to interject lore into the game I think.
Interestingly, this thread has alerted me to the existence of Groetus. I think he would fit my druid even better than Rovagug would have, so I may end up going with him.
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I had more trouble with that logic in LotRO. If I'm deep in some hostile territory, getting torn up, now I've somehow managed to escape the entire enemy army?
Very easy to explain. Historical cases of such happening have actualy been noted...
- You've been dragged away by allies or run away under your own power. Hostile forces have either elected to NOT give chase, remaining in possesion of the battle-field ....or given chase and lost you in the confusion.
OR
- You've been left for dead on the battlefield....only to awake some time later to discover you were only incapacitated/wounded/knocked unconscious.... you manage to escape either on your own or with the aid of others.
FAR more believable (IMO) then frequent/common resurrection is a LOW MAGIC setting like Tolkiens.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Note...
I've played in games where ressurection was commonplace (in game). I've always RP-ed as the character simply not knowing whether they would get ressurected THAT PARTICULAR TIME. That preserves the (IC) sense of dramatic tension and uncertainty of going into a fight for the character.
I recognize that our characters will be marked Pharasma and will realize that. However, so far they have left it a mystery to our characters. So we are fully free to RP as NOT knowing whether we will return to life after any given time we fall...just that we have done so, SO FAR.
I REALLY, REALLY hope that they allow us (IC) to PRESERVE that sense of MYSTERY for our characters, if we WANT to do so.
If they FORCED us to have direct or common knowledge that we could not die in any given battle, it would simply DESTROY the sense of drama, danger and tension in RPing that character, for me. It would reduce death to an unpleasant trip to the dentist and a bad night at poker.
If I had to RP a character that KNEW that...it would so destroy my enjoyment of the game that I would simply stop playing.....one of the very few things that would be a complete deal-breaker for PFO in and of itself.
If they want to allow character who WANT to attain the knowledge of what's actualy happening and why...FINE...let that be an OPTION for them.... But do not FORCE everyone to go through it or make it common knowledge....let those of us who PREFER it be a mystery, keep it as a mystery.....and because it is a mystery, allow the drama of the possibility of death be ever present.
NOTE: I speak from a RP/World Logic standpoint.....from a gameplay/mechanical standpoint, I think they've got the death mechanics pretty much where they should be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's something special about this section of the Crusader Road, and people who have been Marked by Pharasma have an unusual urge to come here.
You find yourself marked by Pharasma, and can't quite explain why. Will you ignore this new development, exploit your new-found immortality-of-a-sort for personal gain, or seek to discover the reasons behind it (and possibly (but not likely) find yourself venturing into the halls of Pharasma to ask the question yourself several expansions down the line)?
"I don't understand it, therefore it couldn't happen" is never the right way to address a mystery.
On the other hand, there is something of value in letting mysteries remain mysteries (in RP-ing) as it preserves a sense of drama and intrigue and allows people who have differing and conflicting preferences to maintain those without either being clearly "wrong".
For example, If I prefer to play my character as believing that Pharasma's mark could disappear upon any given death and each fight having the potential to be my last and you prefer to play your character as knowing they are clearly immortal...leaving the answer unspoken gives us both the possibility to satisfy our individual preferences. If the answer to the mystery is clearly provided, then one of us will be objectively wrong...and therefore disappointed....and forced to play a character that is out of touch with reality, if we want to maintain or preference.
There's something special about this section of the Crusader Road, and people who have been Marked by Pharasma have an unusual urge to come here.
You find yourself marked by Pharasma, and can't quite explain why. Will you ignore this new development, exploit your new-found immortality-of-a-sort for personal gain, or seek to discover the reasons behind it (and possibly (but not likely) find yourself venturing into the halls of Pharasma to ask the question yourself several expansions down the line)?
"I don't understand it, therefore it couldn't happen" is never the right way to address a mystery.
On the other hand, there is something of value in letting mysteries remain mysteries (in RP-ing) as it preserves a sense of drama and intrigue and allows people who have differing and conflicting preferences to maintain those without either being clearly "wrong".
For example, If I prefer to play my character as believing that Pharasma's mark could disappear upon any given death and each fight having the potential to be my last and you prefer to play your character as knowing they are clearly immortal...leaving the answer unspoken gives us both the possibility to satisfy our individual preferences. If the answer to the mystery is clearly provided, then one of us will be objectively wrong...and therefore disappointed....and forced to play a character that is out of touch with reality, if we want to maintain or preference.
You can always RP that your character thinks the information is wrong and the writers are crazy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can always RP that your character thinks the information is wrong and the writers are crazy.There's something special about this section of the Crusader Road, and people who have been Marked by Pharasma have an unusual urge to come here.
You find yourself marked by Pharasma, and can't quite explain why. Will you ignore this new development, exploit your new-found immortality-of-a-sort for personal gain, or seek to discover the reasons behind it (and possibly (but not likely) find yourself venturing into the halls of Pharasma to ask the question yourself several expansions down the line)?
"I don't understand it, therefore it couldn't happen" is never the right way to address a mystery.
On the other hand, there is something of value in letting mysteries remain mysteries (in RP-ing) as it preserves a sense of drama and intrigue and allows people who have differing and conflicting preferences to maintain those without either being clearly "wrong".
For example, If I prefer to play my character as believing that Pharasma's mark could disappear upon any given death and each fight having the potential to be my last and you prefer to play your character as knowing they are clearly immortal...leaving the answer unspoken gives us both the possibility to satisfy our individual preferences. If the answer to the mystery is clearly provided, then one of us will be objectively wrong...and therefore disappointed....and forced to play a character that is out of touch with reality, if we want to maintain or preference.
Depends how heavly we're beaten about the head with the information. It's very different playing a character who believes the "world is flat" in 1050 then it is in 2013.
There is some real value in simply not answering the question whatsoever...as it leaves open myriad conflicting possibilities with none of them objectively wrong. However, even if they were to answer the question objectively....the matter of how...and how feasable it is to rationaly present a different belief becomes a big deal.
Of course they could definateively and openly answer the question.... but I would offer that doing so would serve no effect other then to needlessly alienate at least a portion of thier playerbase.... for no real purpose.
It isn't neccesary mechanicaly and it wouldn't seem to serve anything in terms of the type of game-play they want to foster. Hence, the inherent value in keeping some mysteries as mysteries.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We of The Seventh Veil certainly hope there's more lore than can possibly be gathered...
paizo.com/threads/rzs2nnqt?Chartered-Company-The-Seventh-Veil
Ain't that the truth!
And linkified: The Seventh Veil :)
Those who expected anything different are seriously ignoring how this market operates.
How does the market operate pray tell?
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I'm really thinking we need Goblinwork's as well as James Jacob's input on this.
Also, it's not like she's letting everyone live. I'm pretty sure every hero in the Tabletop is still going to die and never come back unless divine intervention (IE resurrection)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think LaxarX is right to say the mmorpg genre has grown in that direction of avatar resurrection.
However in the case of PFO how to adapt that to be meaningful: Both "loss state" effect on gameplay and "in-character" mythology of soul-binding. Ideally fitting them both to each other.
The variable penalties I think has potential eg type of mob. "In-Character" requires some gaps for the player to fill in, keeps it adaptable explanation and ideally a holistic explanation that adds connections eg why the mark of, what te goddess is possible up to etc.
I think LaxarX is right to say the mmorpg genre has grown in that direction of avatar resurrection..
Oh certainly many, I dare say most, games coming out today are "easy mode". Many have also adopted the philosophy that "No one should ever lose, make them win no matter what they do". In many ways games like Wow have taken this to heart. Hopefully the nitch that PFO is being created for doesn't care for "easy mode"'.
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Pharasma isn't Marking adventurers because she wants to.
There's a hidden darkness beneath the Crusader Road. It ensnares the souls of those of great power or destiny or some other attribute upon death, forcing them to serve in death. This being is Pharasma's sworn enemy, and it is sealed beneath the region by her power.
The being's power over souls is such that, given the proximity, even Pharasma herself cannot properly draw them into the afterlife. Should she simply let this being build its army with the souls of the dead? Instead, she provides a temporary solution. She Marks those traveling over the Crusader Road. The network of shrines that form the being's bindings intercepts their souls if they die in the area. While the shrines can't send them on to the next realm or hold them indefinitely, they can bring them back to life.
While abhorrent to her sensibilities, this is the best she can do for now. The upshot is that, in time, the heroes who grow powerful thanks to their immortality will one day find the being that sleeps far below and destroy it. Of course, the heroes don't realize that Pharasma will no longer auto-ressurect them once the source of the problem is removed, but res spells will still be available to players. If you die, you'll just be dead until someone raises you. Maybe you can wander around in spirit form and try to communicate with those sensitive to spirits?
I always crack a wry smile for those who complain about "easy mode" on the Warcraft boards. These folks are pining for the days that only 1 or 2 percent of the population of the game ever g0t to see end-game content. The reason that Warcraft hasn't become the flash in the pan of many of it's immitators is the realization that the game isn't there solely to cater to the elite. The vast majority who fund the game want a degree of equalization of opportunity with effort. They're not expecting the game to be handed on a platter, but they want some payoff for the time and work they put in, even if they're not the uber A List of keyboard gamers.I think LaxarX is right to say the mmorpg genre has grown in that direction of avatar resurrection..Oh certainly many, I dare say most, games coming out today are "easy mode". Many have also adopted the philosophy that "No one should ever lose, make them win no matter what they do". In many ways games like Wow have taken this to heart. Hopefully the nitch that PFO is being created for doesn't care for "easy mode"'.
I'm really glad that at least a few games are being made that focus on a smaller group of people instead of trying to cater to everyone. Go niche games!
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I'm really glad that at least a few games are being made that focus on a smaller group of people instead of trying to cater to everyone. Go niche games!I always crack a wry smile for those who complain about "easy mode" on the Warcraft boards. These folks are pining for the days that only 1 or 2 percent of the population of the game ever g0t to see end-game content. The reason that Warcraft hasn't become the flash in the pan of many of it's immitators is the realization that the game isn't there solely to cater to the elite. The vast majority who fund the game want a degree of equalization of opportunity with effort. They're not expecting the game to be handed on a platter, but they want some payoff for the time and work they put in, even if they're not the uber A List of keyboard gamers.I think LaxarX is right to say the mmorpg genre has grown in that direction of avatar resurrection..Oh certainly many, I dare say most, games coming out today are "easy mode". Many have also adopted the philosophy that "No one should ever lose, make them win no matter what they do". In many ways games like Wow have taken this to heart. Hopefully the nitch that PFO is being created for doesn't care for "easy mode"'.
I think this is a big conundrum for mmorpgs: A character who grows in value over time. Yet the player never risks anything to really reward certain decisions.
So either the reward can be increased, but equally the risk must rise. And one way to increase that albeit after other risks, is death penalty: Giving enough incentive for players to really not want to be careless/nonchalant about their avatar falling off a cliff or any given moment not taking care of their decisions and therefore being disengaged by the lack of meaningful consequence. Obviously there's a threashold where that could lead to too much stress if the risk overbalances the reward or the reward itself is not very significant.
This is why some roguelike designs really hit the sweet spot for players to progress and then bam! perma-death when you put a foot out of tune in your merry dance along the dungeon passageways. Sure our characters will die in PFO, but how to make that variable according to our intentions and itself an interesting sub-routine?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those aren't niche games... those are extinct games. Screwing over the bulk of your fan base to please a few doesn't translate to success or even viability. If you narrow down your game so that only the most insanely obsessive and compulsive will play it, you're not long for the buisness.I'm really glad that at least a few games are being made that focus on a smaller group of people instead of trying to cater to everyone. Go niche games!I always crack a wry smile for those who complain about "easy mode" on the Warcraft boards. These folks are pining for the days that only 1 or 2 percent of the population of the game ever g0t to see end-game content. The reason that Warcraft hasn't become the flash in the pan of many of it's immitators is the realization that the game isn't there solely to cater to the elite. The vast majority who fund the game want a degree of equalization of opportunity with effort. They're not expecting the game to be handed on a platter, but they want some payoff for the time and work they put in, even if they're not the uber A List of keyboard gamers.I think LaxarX is right to say the mmorpg genre has grown in that direction of avatar resurrection..Oh certainly many, I dare say most, games coming out today are "easy mode". Many have also adopted the philosophy that "No one should ever lose, make them win no matter what they do". In many ways games like Wow have taken this to heart. Hopefully the nitch that PFO is being created for doesn't care for "easy mode"'.
I think the emphasis of what Valandur says went into a generalist perspective of the market, in general, which I know what that means: "infinite lives" in a game dampens sense of progress. I think PFO WILL promote some interesting gameplay: Resources in Hexes distribution: More valuable -> more risk <- higher challenge from other players.
So that part of the gameplay seems to be going in the right direction. The next question is: If avatars will die a lot (which they will) how to make that less grindy/repetitive/inconvenient but equally less insignificant/disengaging/devaluing the feedback of not looking after your avatar's mortality?
The attrition of effects, loss of economically valuable gear and displacement have all been mentioned, which is good. But how to make it a little more interesting atst as more flavor from the lore so those to fit by turning the paradox of immortality into some form of gameplay itself? As above, I like the idea of souls going to another dimensional plane or having to find a rabbit or other luckless animal to conduit to a soul-rebinding spot (players see rabbit with purpose = rabbit stew!) etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those aren't niche games... those are extinct games. Screwing over the bulk of your fan base to please a few doesn't translate to success or even viability. If you narrow down your game so that only the most insanely obsessive and compulsive will play it, you're not long for the buisness.I'm really glad that at least a few games are being made that focus on a smaller group of people instead of trying to cater to everyone. Go niche games!I always crack a wry smile for those who complain about "easy mode" on the Warcraft boards. These folks are pining for the days that only 1 or 2 percent of the population of the game ever g0t to see end-game content. The reason that Warcraft hasn't become the flash in the pan of many of it's immitators is the realization that the game isn't there solely to cater to the elite. The vast majority who fund the game want a degree of equalization of opportunity with effort. They're not expecting the game to be handed on a platter, but they want some payoff for the time and work they put in, even if they're not the uber A List of keyboard gamers.I think LaxarX is right to say the mmorpg genre has grown in that direction of avatar resurrection..Oh certainly many, I dare say most, games coming out today are "easy mode". Many have also adopted the philosophy that "No one should ever lose, make them win no matter what they do". In many ways games like Wow have taken this to heart. Hopefully the nitch that PFO is being created for doesn't care for "easy mode"'.
To be fair, it's not binary, it's more a gradiated scale with perma-death on one extreme and invulnerability (e.g. "God Mode") on the other. I think it's a fair statement that many of the target audience for this game are for penalties that are on the harsher end scale then those which seem currently in vogue in the big, casualy targeted AAA Themeparks.
One can have more meaningfull death penalties then 10 seconds of minor inconveniance without resorting to perma-death.
Those aren't niche games... those are extinct games. Screwing over the bulk of your fan base to please a few doesn't translate to success or even viability. If you narrow down your game so that only the most insanely obsessive and compulsive will play it, you're not long for the buisness.I'm really glad that at least a few games are being made that focus on a smaller group of people instead of trying to cater to everyone. Go niche games!
You need to retread what I posted. I was not saying that games like EQ were niche games. I said that there are a very few games being developed today to serve a niche audience. Games who aren't trying to go after Wow's audience but are targeting people who find games like Wow lacking in quality, gameplay and content. I find it interesting that you predict failure for these games because the game being made by GW IS one of those games! These games, not being theme parks, don't require the massive subscription numbers because their overhead isn't as high as games like Wow.