So I'm not going to copy and paste the curse content, as I believe most everyone here has read it or can at any point read it again. I've been looking over it for a number of days, and there is a big problem I see: From a position of usefulness, not even meta-gaming, Why would anyone ever pick anything except the haunted curse.
The other curses are neat, but not particularly useful. Many of them are totally DM dependent for if they even come into effect. Deaf and blind operate basically like daredevil; "I was born blind, but through some fantastic circumstances, I can now operate like a slightly strange normal person". Great for flavor but like I said not particularly useful. Same for lame. Buy a bag of holding and voila, no more encumbrance. And tongues will only ever be useful if the DM make languages a focus point.
Haunted on the other hand allows the Oracle to dip into arcane casting without even using extra spell slots. And for what detriment? takes a full round to draw things. Ok, most divine spells don't have material components, so all that means is that I can't draw a weapon and attack the same round. Shouldn't matter for a caster. It might make stealth a bit harder as clanging bells and books falling might occur, but at least the spells you get are worth it.
How can we make these better? And by better I mean, more balanced while still being flavorful and fun.
I can't say that I agree with pretty much any of your points.
Every single curse has major drawbacks. Every single curse has major benefits. The curses with less-major drawbacks (tongues, for example) have less-major benefits.
Seems balanced and fun to me.
PS. Nearly as many divine spells have material components as arcane spells, and more divine spells have foci than arcane spells.
I can't say that I agree with pretty much any of your points.
Every single curse has major drawbacks. Every single curse has major benefits. The curses with less-major drawbacks (tongues, for example) have less-major benefits.
Seems balanced and fun to me.
PS. Nearly as many divine spells have material components as arcane spells, and more divine spells have foci than arcane spells.
Whats the major benefit of, say, the wasting curse? Basically you become a lepper. People don't like to be around you. ok. But for what? How often will you run into diseases? By 5th and 10th level when you might start running into many of these you're probably already stacking fort for other non disease related reasons (like poisons). But again I ask now often you come into conditions where you are nauseated or sickened?
Lame. You reduce your land speed. But like I said, getting a bag of holding will make encumbrance a non-issue. and they're not that expensive. At higher levels the progression isn't impressive. No armor penalty is great but you still can't move normal speed. And most Oracle builds probably won't be wearing that heavy of armor anyway. Also, max limitation is what, 10 feet? you can make up for that with items (boots of expeditious retreat for instance, which I think actually gives you a better bonus)Blind has useful applications, but is nothing like what haunted is. Especially given the detriment of a max of 60 foot vision. That just doesn't match against the availability of reverse gravity and telekinesis.
And I call to question how many divine spells need spell components. I don't have the spell list in front of me, but from my experience its not even half as many as arcane. Also in so far as the focus, draw it before combat, or have it be something to the effect of a braclet or a necklace and that problem is solved.
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I disagree with your position pretty strongly. I think each are perfectly reasonable to play, and at my table, being Haunted would be horrible.
My take on why you would (and wouldn't in the case of Haunted) take things.
Clouded Vision
The benefits of this ability is entirely campaign dependent. For campaigns set in dark places with constant use of light sources, the ability to see darkvision (regardless of race) and eventually blindsense/sight is huge. I personally think it will be the hardest to control at the table ("you guys see this guy, but Oracle, just ignore him, he's 35 feet out"). If your group doesn't play with metagame info well, it could be a real problem.
Haunted
It's not just a matter of the move equivalent of drawing items (no more stored potions, wands, or awesome items out of that heward's handy haversack), but the dropping of items would be quite difficult to work with. My players constantly are dropping items on the battlefield (from unloaded crossbows to weapons dropped on critical failures). Watching items never be where they're to be expected (and I read dropped as anything placed, not just "dropped with force"). Sure the advantages are pretty hefty, but with a nasty DM, the disadvantages are also nasty. I do agree though that item recovery should take a move equivalent or full round action, that would be a change I'd be all for.
Lame
Finding a bag of holding isn't always as easy as you would indicate. In addition, this adds some AWESOME combos with barbarian and weak (low STR) characters. Barbarians that can't be fatigued from raging? Characters with low strength (like 8 or so) who wear full plate and don't notice? Sounds good to me.
Wasting
This one to me is one of the more "moderate" of curses. A -4 penalty on CHA tests on a non-charismatic character may not hurt them all that much (especially if they're meant to be intimidating), and to that you're immune to sickened (which is huge), nauseated, and disease? Again, a nice trade-off to a penalty that really doesn't matter for some characters.
Tongues
Absolutely the hardest to run as a DM (I don't know about you but my players LOVE to talk), but I made a bard once with every damn language in the game as part of her character. It can be quite appropriate again for the correct concept.
I think straight up if you're all about casting from outside your school haunted may seem like the most powerful, but I think there are some valid points to the fact that the others are not all that weak, and in some cases they're pretty neutral overall.
there is a big problem I see: From a position of usefulness, not even meta-gaming, Why would anyone ever pick anything except the haunted curse.
Because they're interesting? That's always a big part in character design for many people.
The other curses are neat, but not particularly useful.
And the neat is not enough for you? Stick to haunted then - which is more cursed with GM fiat than all the others combined, by the way.
What will the spirits do? Will they warn enemies? Will they mess up your social interactions?
Deaf and blind operate basically like daredevil; "I was born blind, but through some fantastic circumstances, I can now operate like a slightly strange normal person".
Not true. Clouded vision isn't blind. It's unable to see more than 60 feet. That means your effective range for spells is reduced to 60 feet (30 on low levels). No fireball, firestorm, flame strike, or other medium or long range spells against enemies that aren't nearly upon you.
And deaf will never let you hear. You might learn to read lips, but if the guy wears a mask over his lower face - or just faces away from you - you don't know what he's saying.
Great for flavor but like I said not particularly useful. Same for lame. Buy a bag of holding and voila, no more encumbrance.
No bag of holding and voila, you're screwed.
Let me reiterate: Power is not everything. Not every single ability needs to add 1000 attack. Sometimes, stuff is just supposed to be flavourful.
Now to the curses:
I see more than a few nice things in here. But more than that, I see great style opportunity.
I also find that for the most part, they're done well. I often see disadvantages in RPGs that are designed so badly that they're basically free points.
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But for what? How often will you run into diseases? By 5th and 10th level when you might start running into many of these you're probably already stacking fort for other non disease related reasons (like poisons). But again I ask now often you come into conditions where you are nauseated or sickened?
I currently have two diseased characters in my campaign and I say the sickened condition occurs every three to four sessions now. I'd say disease has become a big deal in at least a quarter the campaigns I've run. With the change in Pathfinder to make diseases even harder to resist/cure, this is huge regardless of how much you're trying to stack fortitude saves.
scent, tremorsense, blindsense, blindsight, immune to fatigued, immune to disease, permanent tongues....
All these things are nice. Adding spells to your spells known is also nice.
I don't see this as cut and dried as you do.
I don't disagree that the other curses are flavorful great. I love story, and I love quirky characters. But I felt as though haunted gave both power and fun flavor.
I do admit though that there seems to be many things I hadn't taken into account, particularly with deaf, and the dunguneering aspect of blind. They do appear more balanced than my original interpretation.
Whats the major benefit of, say, the wasting curse? Basically you become a lepper. People don't like to be around you. ok. But for what? How often will you run into diseases? By 5th and 10th level when you might start running into many of these you're probably already stacking fort for other non disease related reasons (like poisons). But again I ask now often you come into conditions where you are nauseated or sickened?
As I said, the lesser drawbacks have lesser bonuses. -4 to all charisma skills isn't as big a drawback as being deaf, but it is still a significant drawback (just the penalty to Use Magic Device makes it that, but it also has a significant drawback in any political/city/detective campaign, where Diplomacy, Bluff, and Disguise are all major skills).
Lame. You reduce your land speed. But like I said, getting a bag of holding will make encumbrance a non-issue. and they're not that expensive. At higher levels the progression isn't impressive. No armor penalty is great but you still can't move normal speed. And most Oracle builds probably won't be wearing that heavy of armor anyway. Also, max limitation is what, 10 feet? you can make up for that with items (boots of expeditious retreat for instance, which I think actually gives you a better bonus)
See above about lesser drawbacks, lesser rewards. As you state, you can somewhat counteract this curse (and it's the ONLY curse you can counteract with any real efficiency). As such, it has the least rewards.
Blind has useful applications, but is nothing like what haunted is. Especially given the detriment of a max of 60 foot vision. That just doesn't match against the availability of reverse gravity and telekinesis.
And I question the usefulness of reverse gravity and telekinesis. You'll never win at a maneuver against anything important, because you're not full BAB, and the violent thrust ability is worse than just tossing a fireball since it's not likely to let you throw any creatures; reverse gravity is easily countered since, by 15th level, everything you're fighting flies anyway.
Comparing that to blindsense 30' and blindsight 15' is no contest. Both are incredibly powerful abilities that are extremely hard to come by for a player character.
And I call to question how many divine spells need spell components. I don't have the spell list in front of me, but from my experience its not even half as many as arcane. Also in so far as the focus, draw it before combat, or have it be something to the effect of a braclet or a necklace and that problem is solved.
No, that doesn't solve the problem. If you draw it before combat, that means you can't wield a weapon if you want to cast spells (have to have a hand free for somatic components, and dropping a weapon for you means a full-round action to get it back, assuming something else doesn't steal it first since it's 10' away from you), and if you don't it's a move action to retrieve.
Whats the major benefit of, say, the wasting curse? Basically you become a lepper. People don't like to be around you. ok. But for what? How often will you run into diseases? By 5th and 10th level when you might start running into many of these you're probably already stacking fort for other non disease related reasons (like poisons). But again I ask now often you come into conditions where you are nauseated or sickened?As I said, the lesser drawbacks have lesser bonuses. -4 to all charisma skills isn't as big a drawback as being deaf, but it is still a significant drawback (just the penalty to Use Magic Device makes it that, but it also has a significant drawback in any political/city/detective campaign, where Diplomacy, Bluff, and Disguise are all major skills).
Lame. You reduce your land speed. But like I said, getting a bag of holding will make encumbrance a non-issue. and they're not that expensive. At higher levels the progression isn't impressive. No armor penalty is great but you still can't move normal speed. And most Oracle builds probably won't be wearing that heavy of armor anyway. Also, max limitation is what, 10 feet? you can make up for that with items (boots of expeditious retreat for instance, which I think actually gives you a better bonus)See above about lesser drawbacks, lesser rewards. As you state, you can somewhat counteract this curse (and it's the ONLY curse you can counteract with any real efficiency). As such, it has the least rewards.
Blind has useful applications, but is nothing like what haunted is. Especially given the detriment of a max of 60 foot vision. That just doesn't match against the availability of reverse gravity and telekinesis.And I question the usefulness of reverse gravity and telekinesis. You'll never win at a maneuver against anything important, because you're not full BAB, and the violent thrust ability is worse than just tossing a fireball since it's not likely to let...
How many cleric spells require specific foci and how universally useful are they that a spontaneous caster would take them. Also, combat wise its one of the easiest to get around. If your playing a full caster who cares about weapons? If you take a weapon out, you shouldn't drop it, and if you drop it for some ineffable reason why would you waste time trying to pick it back up. Cast a spell and run away.
If your a melee type, something akin to a caster rogue is how i see them playing unless your battle focus, then it could be an issue, if you make a habit of dropping stuff. But if your willingly dropping, say, hand cross bows and using the quick draw function to get around having to reload them (just drop and draw another) then your not really interested in picking them back up.
All in all I don't think that the draw back is as hefty in combat as many of the others. Out of combat, its awesome flavor. bells chiming when your trying to be stealthy or books attacking the Barron when your trying to speak with him...these things make for awesome story and roll play. I personally feel like it would be harder to get the same roll play benefit from blind, deaf, or lame. Weakened could be lots of fun too though...
or telling which way is East
Shadows make that easy, unless it's high noon.
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Shadows make that easy, unless it's high noon.
Let's take a look at what he wrote:
(and for the people saying being blind is not a that much of a hinderence try fighting a dragon doing strafing runs on you...or telling which way is East)
You might want to reread that.
I agree with others that the drawbacks/advantages are pretty well balanced. Some of them are more extreme than others, but that goes for both the drawback and the benefit.
I can't see haunted as being "undoubtedly" the best one. Depending on your DM, that one could really, really suck. At low levels you aren't going to be casting all combat, every combat; unless you want to stand around playing with yourself you're best off carrying around a crossbow or something and shooting it. Losing those actions can be a really big deal, and if you ever made the mistake of dropping your focus? Oh boy....
There are variable definitions of "blind". There's the "can't see anything at all" definition, then there's the "extremely impaired vision" definition, which is what Oracles are. Oracles have no problem seeing their own shadow. They would have a problem seeing a dragon making strafing runs.
If your visions limited to 30 or 60 feet then yeah ya can't see a thing. Past 20 feet for me and everything "bleeds" together I can see color if bright enough but shape and distance is a no go
Just a point about haunted I haven't seen made.
Please note, those spirits can put the item ANYWHERE within the radius of effect.
That means that, let's say, if there is a crevice close enough to the oracle when he drops his +2 bow to pull his +2 sword, or if he tries to pull out that wand of cure critical, then the spirits could drop it down the crevice. Or drop that vial of poison down the water well (wont't that make the oracle popular in town?). Or that flask of oil in the blacksmith's forge (or greek fire, or dragonbane (gunpowder)), again making the oracle really popular.
Haunting is a major, major limitation, and anyone taking it needs to be sure they can handle nasty spirits with a nasty (and deadly) sense of humor. How about if they stick that dagger you dropped (the one everyone has seen you use) on the chair of the queen (point up) before she sits down? Again, making you really really popular with the king.
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Haunting is a major, major limitation, and anyone taking it needs to be sure they can handle nasty spirits with a nasty (and deadly) sense of humor.
I've gamed with GMs with such a sense of 'humor,' where getting a Wish from a ring, or even as a reward from your diety, was basically a death-sentence, since no matter *what* you Wished for, you were going to end up gruesomely dicked-over.
The other curses don't appear to attempt to maliciously screw the character, so I'd be leery of assigning a malevolent agenda to this one. I'd make it inconvenient, and occasionally puckish, but *especially* would avoid doing things that would get the entire party punished for hanging around with this guy (like perforating the queen's bottom).
If there's one thing I pretty soundly despise is character flaws that ruin the enjoyment of every other player at the table. That's just bad design, and makes the player who chose that flaw look like a world-class jerk for choosing a disadvantage or curse that regularly ruins his friends evening entertainment.
Fortunately, this one doesn't seem to be written that way. It seems to, like the other curses, affect the Oracle, and not go out of it's way to screw over any soft-hearted (or minded) saps who allowed this sad sack into their adventuring party, instead of sensibly dumping him down the first well the moment they discovered that he was a walking jinx who is always one DM whim away from ending the campaign with the entire party in jail or on the gallows. The Curse doesn't even sound particularly intelligent, let alone malicious, so it's unlikely that it would even know the difference between the queen's bottom and any other bottom, or that the pointy side of the dagger should go up.
Instead the Oracle might just discover that the gift he was supposed to give the queen appears to have vanished into his bags again, and be stuck stammering his apologies while he searches all over his person for the item, looking like a fool. After recovering his dignity and gifting the queen with the bauble she had lost as a girl, he would bow and attempt to back away, only to find that his bootlaces somehow got tied together, leading to a curter than expected dismissal for someone who just completed a quest for the royal family.
Maybe Haunted just isn't an appropriate curse, if some DMs are going to use it to have magic items leap into fiery chasms or flasks of alchemists fire leap out of one's backpack and set the inn on fire. It sounds like a recipe for Not-Fun.
Haunting is a major, major limitation, and anyone taking it needs to be sure they can handle nasty spirits with a nasty (and deadly) sense of humor.I've gamed with GMs with such a sense of 'humor,' where getting a Wish from a ring, or even as a reward from your diety, was basically a death-sentence, since no matter *what* you Wished for, you were going to end up gruesomely dicked-over.
The other curses don't appear to attempt to maliciously screw the character, so I'd be leery of assigning a malevolent agenda to this one. I'd make it inconvenient, and occasionally puckish, but *especially* would avoid doing things that would get the entire party punished for hanging around with this guy (like perforating the queen's bottom).
I probably would not use those things in my own game (not regularly anyway, as part of a plot I might). I might drop something down a crevice, but only if they could get it back (might be difficult of course).
More than likely, I'd just make it being very very annoying (like the wand of cure critical landing between the feet of a badguy or something).
I only point out that the curse has the potential to be very very bad depending on circumstances.
If your visions limited to 30 or 60 feet then yeah ya can't see a thing. Past 20 feet for me and everything "bleeds" together I can see color if bright enough but shape and distance is a no go
Note: Due to Clouded Vision allowing you to see "as if you had Dark Vision", I interpret that as "you can only see in gray-scale." Even color is tricky for an Oracle with Clouded Vision. That said, I still want to have Blindsense/Blindsight on a Battle Focus, STR heavy Oracle.
I can't see haunted as being "undoubtedly" the best one. Depending on your DM, that one could really, really suck. At low levels you aren't going to be casting all combat, every combat; unless you want to stand around playing with yourself you're best off carrying around a crossbow or something and shooting it. Losing those actions can be a really big deal, and if you ever made the mistake of dropping your focus? Oh boy....
Actually Haunted could potentially be the worst option. As it is written, drawing any item is at least a move action. That includes drawing ammunition (normally a free action), getting spell components out of a component pouch (normally part of casting a spell), drawing a weapon as part of a move action (which also includes readying a scroll or similar item in that manner).
I personally think a lot of the curse need a little cleaning up, but they are not deal breakers.
I keep on thinking about the song "War" by Edwin Starr, but substitute in the title of the post.
But back to the thread, I always like features that add flavor, you just need to have a discussion with your DM as to what may be appropriate.
Actually Haunted could potentially be the worst option. As it is written, drawing any item is at least a move action. That includes drawing ammunition (normally a free action), getting spell components out of a component pouch (normally part of casting a spell), drawing a weapon as part of a move action (which also includes readying a scroll or similar item in that manner).I personally think a lot of the curse need a little cleaning up, but they are not deal breakers.
That's a real good point. Good enough that I think it needs emphasizing.
So I did.