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So I decided to create a party of characters that might step on each other's toes a little for a playtest game tonight, just to see if the new base classes need some refocusing.
The party consists of (all level 1)
Halfling Cavalier of the Order of the Sword (Goat Companion - Used the rules for Wolf, changed the Bite to a Gore, otherwise identical)
(1st Level Feat Mounted Combat)
Halfling Paladin of Iomedae (On a purchased riding goat)
(1st Level Feat TWF)
Halfling Blind Battle Oracle (On a purchased riding goat)
(1st Level Feat Toughness)
Halfling Druid (On a riding dog)
(1st Level Feat Mounted Combat)
The mod is fairly simple -
These brave halflings a group of freedom fighters, they've found a "halfling re-education camp" in the Chelish wilderness, their job is to free the halfling slaves.
5-6 major encounter locations:
Gate and Guard Tower -
The raid can happen at any time of day or night, (player's choice). The Guard tower has one guard watching for escapees or intruders. There are two guards manning the door. At night it's possible to take out the gate guards without alerting the tower guard (the light beam shines into the compound not out).
(Guards = Human Warrior 1)
Once inside there are 5 major locations:
The Barracks
There are 12 human warriors stationed at the "re education camp" 4 of which will be resting here at any point in time due to the nature of their shifts. (Barracks combat includes things like cover for furniture, and troublesome line of charging).
The Slave Pens
Primarily a role-play encounter to gain potential information from the Halfling prisoners. There is a mad oracle of bones in here (halfling oracle of bones 3). He might pose an additional combat if we run early.
The Stables and Kennels
The stables are the home of the Commander's hunting hounds (riding dogs), the PCs need to neutralise them to escape.
The Commander's Office/House
The Commander's Office is currently being used by the Cleric of Zon-Kuthon as the Commander has left on important business. He'll return at the end of the scenario.
The "Ovens"
The PCs will have to fight an evil Cleric of Zon-Kuthon (lvl 2) and a pair of burning halfling skeletons.
Other Encounters
The Return of the Commander
The Commander (Human Cav 3) will return astride his Warhorse, and with a pair of Warriors (Human War 1, on Warhorses). If the PCs want to escape they'll have to defeat the Commander.
Bonus Encounter: The Mad Oracle
The Oracle of Bones is deaf, only hearing the screaming burning pain of his halfling kin that have already been sent to the "ovens". When the PCs try to escape with the halfling slaves the Oracle goes mad, saying he can't leave his kin behind. The PCs will have to fight this ancient oracle, who is deaf to their words.
What I'm Looking For: I've removed the variable of race, and instead am looking to address some of the issues the boards seem to have taken with there being too much similarity between the Paladin and the Cavalier. I'm also looking to see if the Druid is also a viable combat rider at 1st level (and whether the buff spells make any serious difference to an animal companion's toughness). Depending on how many players I get I might throw in a Sorcerer (Celestial Bloodline) and a Ranger. I really want to see how many toes get stepped on in regards to abilities and whether this is a bug or a feature.
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Wow... that party should yield fruitful results, and I like the plot! You have incorporated many elements in interesting ways (halfling burning skeletons, mad Oracle of Bones, cavalier commander, etc.).
Naturally, as Chelaxians, we both know that the idea behind this scenario sounds like something Taldorian propaganda cooked up -- those camps do *not* exist in Cheliax! ;)
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We were running behind schedule so here's a quick rundown of what happened (as I was forced to cut some encounters). I had two characters with three characters each.
Player 1 - Oracle, Sorcerer, Paladin
Player 2 - Cavalier, Ranger, Druid
NB: Since the oracle was blind (but had Darkvision to 60 ft., I absolutely enforced rules for darkness and visibility during this game.
The gates: The party took the gates at night, formulating a simple plan. The Cavalier and the Ranger scaled the wall and the parapet silently. The Cavalier swore an Oath of Vengeance against humans and killed the guard quickly, informing the sorcerer's familiar when the deed was done. At which point the Oracle, Sorcerer, Paladin and Druid all charged in on their Springjacks (goats) and Sheep Dog. The Sorcerer was having trouble with his foe, and when the Cavalier had his turn again he tied himself to the 50 ft high parapet on his 50 ft rope (5 ft lost for tying) and swung down declaring his challenge. Thus was born the Halfling Death Pendulum. The gate guard's taken care of the party entered the compound.
The courtyard: The party saw a lone guard wandering the courtyard with a lamp giving off 20 ft. of light. The party avoided him and hid between a building and a wall. At which point the Tiefling Cleric of Zon Kuthon exited the Commander's quarters, thought that he spotted something. He informed the guard who headed into the barracks and pulled out 3 more allies. Meanwhile the cleric grabbed a halfling from the cages and dragged him to the "oven". The sorcerer used his raven familiar to drop a thunderstone in the opposite corner of the compound. The guards heard the noise and headed over toward it to check it out. The party attempted to sneak to the "ovens". Unfortunately a flubbed roll on the part of the druid drew the attention of the guards on team 2. The fight was quick and brutal (the Cavalier was quick to declare a charge, also he coup des graced any bleeding humans to add to his HD count). The fight ended quickly (attack mounts, very handy).
The "ovens" Kicking open the door to the ovens the PCs were greeted with a horrific sight. In the small window of the oven a halfling, was set ablaze and trying to break free. Initiative was rolled and the Cavalier ran straight in using his sword as a lever to open the door (+2 circumstance bonus to check). He pried open the door without trouble, the PCs were unable to see the Tiefling in the unlit corners of the room, until the Ranger entered, noticing a vague outline in the shadowy darkness of one of the corners. He attacked with his reach weapon. The Tiefling Zon-Kuthonite cast darkness on himself obscuring that corner of the room, and then on tables at the edges of the room the burning skeletons of the halflings awoke (4 in all). The sorcerer then cast grease "on the darkness", the group heard the Zon-Kuthonite slip and fall. The fight that followed was brutal. The burning aura of the skeletons was completely unaffected by their size (they had trouble hitting though, so thank goodness for small favours). The druid cast light on the cavalier's sword who declared a challenge against the Tiefling (dealing max non-crit damage first hit 15 at lvl 1 not too shabby). Unfortunately the Tiefling's ability to cast defensively caused the halfling to cower in terror. The burning auras of the skeletons continued to damage him, the ranger and the druid (dropping them all to negatives at one point or another). The TWF Paladin was smashing his way through burning skeletons at a rate of 1/round (with the aid of Enlarge Person). He then proceeded to slip and fall in the grease spell. The oracle healed up the druid, who promptly magic fanged his sheep dog and sent him attacking the tiefling by jumping on the prone body of the paladin (avoiding the ref save for grease). The sheep dog tore out a chunk of the tiefling's throat and the Zon-Kuthonite bled out on the floor. The PCs healed up (again thanks to the Oracle), grabbed the keys and freed the slaves.
At this point it was 10:45 PM and people had work in the morning, so I declared the adventure over, with the PCs the victors.
Playtest Notes:
Of toes getting stepped on.
Compared to the Cavalier, the Paladin just sucks. He sucks long, he sucks hard. The Paladin is the proto-cavalier, the Cavalier is the deluxe model. The Cavalier got to use his cool ability every combat, and being flanked by non-challenged opponents was not a real issue at all since the rest of the party kept away mobs. The Cavalier's ability to declare a challenge any time meant he could do so while swinging from a 50 foot parapet (gravity is a free action). The Paladin at level 1 gets to smite 1/day. He was saving it for the Tiefling, but then fell on his ass. The only way he could keep up DPS was because he was a TWF (thus a sub-optimal fighter out-paladins the paladin). If you want to be dedicated to a god, just take Order of the Star. No problems. (Order of the Sword ability were handy even at lvl 1 if you're small with a medium mount, just ride your goat, or dog or whatevs into the dungeon).
The oracle begged to be a more interesting class than it was. The player really liked the curse mechanic (darkvision within 30 ft, but can only see 30 ft., really cool in a party with no vision abilities). Otherwise though he never used the Battlecry, and spent all of his spells on heals. The cleric just does not have enough choice to make the Oracle fun at first level. Where the cavalier gets to do his thing from the get-go, the Oracle really needs to level up some before he'll get a chance to shine. The sorcerer was a utility caster (grease and enlarge person only 1st level spells known, he used mage hand to grab a potion of CLW off the kuthonite's belt saving the Cavalier's life). The Oracle really needs that druid list to have something interesting to do from level 1.
The new mechanics
My player loved the Oath of Vengeance, and made sure to coup de grace every human he came across. We misunderstood the oath on second reading and he thought he gained a +1 bonus for every 5 HD worth of humans he killed (for the record he hit 5 just as they got to the tiefling/skeleton fight, still it took too long for the bonus to get near the output of the ranger).
He thought it was silly that you got benefits only AFTER fulfilling the oath, and felt that the swearing the oath should activate it, and it would give you bonuses to encourage you to fulfil it. The mount didn't seem any more fragile than a druid's mount, and did decent damage.
Final Thoughts
The Cavalier is good, possibly too good not just stepping on the paladin's toes, but completely curb-stomping him into the ground. I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to play a paladin again when they could play an Order of the Star Cavalier, or a devout Order of the Sword (bonus no hard restrictions on actions).
The Oracle is flavoured as the most interesting divine caster, but is not fulfilled by its abilities. The cleric list is just not enough to draw from (perhaps bonus spells known should start from level 1) to give an oracle something to do besides healbot. Right now it's getting outshined by both a Druid and a Sorcerer (neither of which were particularly optimised). The Sorcerer had better buffs/debuffs, and the War Cry just wasn't significant enough to warrant paying attention to.
I hope this playtest helps you with tweaking these classes.
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Nice play test! Ultimately, it looks like everyone had fun :) Though it would have been nice to see if a player who was only playing the Paladin seemed to have as much fun as someone only playing the cavalier.
As I read it, the Oath of Vengeance has nothing to do with the total HD of creatures slain. It only gives an increased bonus if you kill a single creature of 5 or more HD. Which I think you mentioned figuring out.
The Paladin gains abilities at 2nd and 3rd level that help make up the power difference between him and the cavalier. At first level the Paladin is pretty much just a fighter with a moral code( except for the 1/day he uses smite ), whereas the Cavalier gets all their premier abilities at 1st level and some added extras at 2nd.
The Battle Oracles Battlecry ability is not so cool. The +1 bonus isn't great and the limited uses makes it worse than most of the other Battle abilities. Warsight, Weapon Mastery, and Skill at Arms are all better choices IMHO.
It is interesting that you got such different results then I did when comparing the paladin to the cavalier, though I think a chunk of that was because it was all at level 1, where i think the paladin hasnt started to shine yet. Perhaps a per day mechanic for the challenge is in order, but I think it should be more then that of the paladins smite, since that is a much larger bonus. Maybe it could be rounds per day like the barbs rage or the bards song. Not sure but its worth considering at least.
That said, I think the whole 'toe stepping' thing is kind of moot, ofcourse there was toe stepping, you had multiple character built to do the same thing. If there had abeen a raging barbarian instead of a cavalier, and the paladin also fell on his behind, he still would have seemed overshadowed. I dont think that is a function of the cavalier class, I think it is a function of some unfortunate rolling by the paly.
As for the whole 'theres no reason to play a paladin' when you can play a cavalier with a religious theme, thats kind of silly. Lay on Hands, divine grace, mercies and the weapon bond are all things the cavalier cant do in any way. There are still advantages, they just arent as evident at level 1. I also think 2 weapon fighting at level 1 was a poor choice for a first level feat. Extra smite would have served better and that isnt the best option.
I see a couple problems in your report that enhance the value of the Cavalier beyond what is granted by the rules.
First, the HD count from Oath of Vengeance doesn't stack. It's based on the highest HD creature you've slain, not the HD of all creatures you've slain.
Second, light (a 0-level spell) doesn't dispel darkness (a 1st-level spell), so the tiefling was immune to the cavalier's precision damage (20% concealment = no precision damage).
Also, Paladins hardly shine at first level in any campaign, and as mentioned TWF is a very poor choice for a paladin at first level.
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@ Draeke Raefel: Yeah that was a misinterpretation of the rules, but it never really ended up applying. To be honest I think misinterpreting the rules that way actually led to a more flavour rich experience (the Cavalier coup-de-gracing every human he could find to fulfil his oath of Vengeance. Well that's kinda gravy. If they were to implement the oath that way I would change it to for every 5 hit die + cavalier level of creatures slain increase the bonus to +1 or just make sure the bonus is capped at +2 for every 5 levels he's attained.
I chose Battlecry over Skill-At-Arms, Weapon Mastery or Warsight because I wanted an ability the Oracle could activate, rather than anything more passive.
@ Kolokotroni: Indeed it was a level 1 playtest. Thus I was comparing the characters at level 1. The paladin's suckage at first level is somewhat legendary, and TWF was actually a better choice than Extra Smite. With the guards they fought there was maybe a 50/50 chance that they'd be evil. The skeletons went down quickly on any turn the paladin hit them anyway (even though they had damage reduction, halfling skellies are only 4 hp glass cannons). Still for a rough estimation check it:
Paladin Level 1 - Smite Evil (+3 to hit, +1 dmg) 3/day.
Cavalier Level 1 - Oath (can be active all day), Challenge +1d6 dmg 1/combat ALL day + Order Bonus.
Paladin Level 5 - Smite Evil 4/day (+3 to hit, +5 dmg) (by burning a feat on Extra Smite) Lay on Hands likely 5/day.
vs Cavalier 5 - Challenge (+2d6 dmg) 1/combat all day. 2 Oaths active probably for all day.
Paladin Level 10 - Smite Evil 6/day (+3 to hit, +10 dmg)(by burning a feat on Extra Smite) Lay on Hands likely 8/day (maybe a couple more with Cha boosters).
vs Cavalier 10 - Challenge (+4d6 dmg) 1/combat all day. 3 Oaths active probably all day.
Paladin Level 15 - Smite Evil 7/day (+3 to hit, +15 dmg)(by burning a feat on Extra Smite) Lay on Hands likely 10/day (maybe more with Cha boosters).
vs. Cavalier 15 - Challenge 5d6 1/combat all day. 3 Oaths active. Plus awesome charging abilities that activate any time he charges.
That's not even taking into the fact that the Paladin's ability is dependent on finding evil bad guys to smite. Since all sorts of Neutral or misguided Good aligned characters might get in his way, his signature ability just gets ignored a lot of the time. When it comes to flavour and crunch mixing the cavalier just does the job a lot better. The Paladin is reduced to side-kick, using the only the ability the Cavalier doesn't beat him in (heals and buffs), but that the Cleric totally kicks his ass in anyway (nobody plays a Paladin for party healing, they play a Paladin to smite some evil). The cavalier just does it better and more consistently.
@ Zurai - Yeah that was my bad in regards to the light/darkness issue. Still a Cavalier with Darkvision (like a Dwarf or Half-Orc) still would have taken the Tiefling down the same way. The point was that the Cavalier out Paladins the Paladin, and needs to be taken back a notch. While I did misinterpret the Oath of Vengeance, that extra +1 to hit humans never came up (and like I said my misinterpretation might make for a nifty rule since it encourages the Cavalier to be vengeful). I really think the Challenge needs to be toned back in some other way.
One of my players suggested toning the Challenge down to d4.
Or maybe allowing only x/challenges a day, or the challenge lasting x/rounds per day Barbarian/Bard style.
Anyway I'm already planning a second play test with the same party upped to 5th level. Just to see if the Paladin does catch up with the Cavalier, whether higher level Oracle spells (plus Focus bonus spells) really do add something to catch these classes up in the fun levels.
EDIT: Fixed the math on the Paladin. Thanks for the catch. Still the Cavalier's Challenge AVERAGES the damage of the Paladin's smite, and is potentially HIGHER than the Paladin's smite. The paladin's damage only really shines against Evil Outsiders, Dragons or Undead. The Cavalier's damage ALWAYS shines.
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Something else to note.
The Oracle's player really liked the flavour of the class so much that he's changing his character in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game to an Gnome Haunted Oracle of the Wind (kicked out of the temple of Shelyn because stuff would keep disappearing and moving). So flavour can trump class abilities in many ways.
The problem is the Cavalier's and Paladin's flavours are so similar. In this example the Paladin is chocolate ice-cream, the Cavalier is chocolate chocolate chip.
You're ignoring the to-hit bonus, AC bonus, and DR penetration from Smite, as well as the fact that it's multiplied on a critical. Just the DR penetration makes Smite easily outdamage Challenge.
Then there's the fact that several creature types are immune to precision damage, and anything with any concealment is also immune to precision damage. Nothing is immune to smite damage.
EDIT: Your paladin also apparently refuses to invest in a headband of charisma, which is silly for any number of reasons.
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You're ignoring the to-hit bonus, AC bonus, and DR penetration from Smite, as well as the fact that it's multiplied on a critical. Just the DR penetration makes Smite easily outdamage Challenge.
Then there's the fact that several creature types are immune to precision damage, and anything with any concealment is also immune to precision damage. Nothing is immune to smite damage.
EDIT: Your paladin also apparently refuses to invest in a headband of charisma, which is silly for any number of reasons.
I did say that it was possibly higher with Cha boosters, but still not the point. The Cavalier neither has to spend gold nor feats to improve his challenge. It is always awesome.
Actually there's heaps of stuff immune to Smite. 2/3rds of the alignment scale is immune to Smite (no matter the type). The things that are immune to precision damage in the game are pretty much Oozes, and the Gibbering Mouther. Undead, Constructs are all precision attackable in PF. (Note Paladin can't smite most constructs either as they are mostly neutral).
Also if the Paladin is spending money on Cha boosters, then the Cavalier should be spending money on vision boosters (potions of darkvision. Goggles of True Seeing etc. Power Gamers are absolutely going to take every opportunity to make sure they get their Challenge off).
Actually there's heaps of stuff immune to Smite. 2/3rds of the alignment scale is immune to Smite (no matter the type).
Half of that exclusion set is so rarely encountered as BBEGs that they can be easily set equal to zero, and the other half are extremely rare. The things that the Paladin would want to use Smite on are, as a general rule, evil.
The things that are immune to precision damage in the game are pretty much Oozes, and the Gibbering Mouther.
And anything with the Elemental subtype, which consists of more than just elementals.
Also if the Paladin is spending money on Cha boosters, then the Cavalier should be spending money on vision boosters (potions of darkvision. Goggles of True Seeing etc. Power Gamers are absolutely going to take every opportunity to make sure they get their Challenge off).
A +2 Charisma item costs 4000 gold and is permanent. A gem of seeing costs 75,000 gold, uses one hand (so no two-handed weapon or shield) and doesn't last all day. There is NO magic item that gives permanent true seeing, and even if you allow them to make one up, it'll cost them anywhere between ~190,000 gold and ~375,000 gold. For that kind of price, the Paladin can get +11 to their Charisma (+6 Charisma headband is 36k, +5 Charisma manual is 137,500).
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Actually there's heaps of stuff immune to Smite. 2/3rds of the alignment scale is immune to Smite (no matter the type).Half of that exclusion set is so rarely encountered as BBEGs that they can be easily set equal to zero, and the other half are extremely rare. The things that the Paladin would want to use Smite on are, as a general rule, evil.
The point there is the Paladin needs to save his smites which are comparable to the Cavalier's challenges. The Cavalier has no need to save his Challenges, challenging something every combat. I don't know about you, but if I could do something awesome a couple of times a day or do something awesome ALL day I'd pick all day. (Chocolate Chocolate Chip every day please).
The things that are immune to precision damage in the game are pretty much Oozes, and the Gibbering Mouther.And anything with the Elemental subtype, which consists of more than just elementals.
This point is conceded. But then most Elementals aren't evil, so again it's a wash.
Also if the Paladin is spending money on Cha boosters, then the Cavalier should be spending money on vision boosters (potions of darkvision. Goggles of True Seeing etc. Power Gamers are absolutely going to take every opportunity to make sure they get their Challenge off).A +2 Charisma item costs 4000 gold and is permanent. A gem of seeing costs 75,000 gold, uses one hand (so no two-handed weapon or shield) and doesn't last all day. There is NO magic item that gives permanent true seeing, and even if you allow them to make one up, it'll cost them anywhere between ~190,000 gold and ~375,000 gold.
Goggles of Night 12,000 GP. Dust of Appearance 900 GP. The ability to Challenge the occasional concealed/displaced/stealthed bad guy? Priceless.
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I really like the scenario you ran them through! Sounds like it would be a lot of fun.
I think the Oracle probably picks up quite a bit after a couple levels. More spells known always helps keep a spontaneous caster fun.
As for the Cavalier, I do think that his challenge mechanic should be more limited. I think the mechanic itself is fine, but should be limited by uses per day, or a number of rounds per use.
I strongly feel that the challenge feature should be influenced by charisma, because whichever way you look at it or interpret it, it's powered by force of personality.
I think it should be usable either in a rounds/day way similar to rage or Bardic performance, or else you can use it once per combat but it only lasts X + charisma modifier rounds.
Neither of those foils a simple deeper darkness spell, and if you really want to waste 2k gold per fight on dust of appearance, be my guest. I imagine the party won't be so happy with your frivolous use of cash.
EDIT: I'm also curious why you aren't railing against the Rogue. The Rogue does MORE precision damage MORE OFTEN with LESS DRAWBACK. He's stealing the Paladin's spotlight!
Hey Zurai, I know you like to argue (and believe me, so do I), but can Dudemeister be allowed to talk about his playtest experiences without the thread getting bogged down by nitpicks? Whether you agree that the circumstances of his playtest are representative or not, they are still his experiences, and thus are valuable (I believe Jason has specifically said this is the type of feedback he's interested in).
If the data is flawed, it's not useful data.
If the conclusions drawn from the data are flawed, they need to be pointed out.
If the foundation of the test is flawed, it shadows the entire test.
Regardless, I'm not saying that he shouldn't playtest and shouldn't share his experiences with us. I'm challenging his playtest's usefulness as a datum. If you aren't aware, all scientific tests go through a period where they are reviewed and challenged by peers. Further, he posted the test to an open board and invited feedback instead of just emailing it, which indicates that he's looking for review.
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Neither of those foils a simple deeper darkness spell, and if you really want to waste 2k gold per fight on dust of appearance, be my guest. I imagine the party won't be so happy with your frivolous use of cash.
EDIT: I'm also curious why you aren't railing against the Rogue. The Rogue does MORE precision damage MORE OFTEN with LESS DRAWBACK. He's stealing the Paladin's spotlight!
How many times does concealment ACTUALLY come up in the games you run or play in? Like per adventure? Once, maybe twice?
I'm seeing 900 gp per adventure from level 4 onwards as a good investment (and something I'd give to my rogues too).
Actually you bring up an interesting point, but not in the way you think. Perhaps the Cavalier shouldn't be base lined with the Paladin, but should be base lined against the Rogue (another precision based damager). I got so caught up in the flavour of the two classes (and the Cavalier has the Paladin's flavour with none of the drawbacks. Mmmm, Chocolate Chocolate Chip), that I missed that the mechanics are more similar to a rogue.
Next play test will feature a Pally, Cavalier and Rogue. Not because I feel the Rogue steps on the Paladin's toes, but because it'll be interesting to see how the two precision damagers stack up.
I don't mind the nitpicks at all. I'm just saying that you try playing the classes. Or running an adventure for them. I'll even pop my adventure up on Google Docs within the next couple of days, so other people can run it too if they like. It's a fairly simple scenario. If you still disagree that the Cavalier out-paladins a paladin at level 1 then so be it.
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Not to continue the argument, but 5+ smites should be enough for the paladin to use 1 smite per encounter. Assuming 4-6 encounters per day( which I think is pretty standard ).
Which is what makes a dip in Cavalier so delicious (like chocolate chocolate chip!), one level of Cavalier and you are challenging all day, get a mount and can swear an Oath (I'd suggest vengeance every time, it doesn't even rely on your own lvl to power up).
I'm not saying that the Cavalier is overpowered, I feel it can work fine in a party. I'm just saying it takes a patient player to wait for the rewards of smiting evil 5/day (contingent on finding evil foes to smite), when he can be a Cavalier and have the same fun all day.
If the data is flawed, it's not useful data.
If the conclusions drawn from the data are flawed, they need to be pointed out.
If the foundation of the test is flawed, it shadows the entire test.Regardless, I'm not saying that he shouldn't playtest and shouldn't share his experiences with us. I'm challenging his playtest's usefulness as a datum. If you aren't aware, all scientific tests go through a period where they are reviewed and challenged by peers. Further, he posted the test to an open board and invited feedback instead of just emailing it, which indicates that he's looking for review.
It's not flawed, it's anecdote. And, speaking as a condescending armchair logician doesn't lay out your opinion as fact. Half of the 'flaws' you pointed out vary from one campaign to another (the limited targets of smite, the levels of the characters involved-which he said he'd be running at another level, the equipment-from which you drew inferences) vary from one campaign to another.
Seriously, this is a report thread, not a debate thread.
How many times does concealment ACTUALLY come up in the games you run or play in? Like per adventure? Once, maybe twice?
Pretty frequently, actually. Blur, displacement, and cloaks of displacement are pretty powerful and pretty common around here. Dust of appearance does work against those, but it can get mighty expensive to use continuously.
Actually you bring up an interesting point, but not in the way you think. Perhaps the Cavalier shouldn't be base lined with the Paladin, but should be base lined against the Rogue (another precision based damager). I got so caught up in the flavour of the two classes (and the Cavalier has the Paladin's flavour with none of the drawbacks. Mmmm, Chocolate Chocolate Chip), that I missed that the mechanics are more similar to a rogue.
Next play test will feature a Pally, Cavalier and Rogue. Not because I feel the Rogue steps on the Paladin's toes, but because it'll be interesting to see how the two precision damagers stack up.
Now this is a comparison I can get behind. The Cavalier will likely outdo the Rogue by a pretty fair margin at level 1 (+1 BAB, extra hit points, better weaponry, better armor, etc, and their slower extra dice progression hasn't kicked in yet), but should balance out somewhat by level 5-10.
Seriously, this is a report thread, not a debate thread.
And the original poster of the thread says he doesn't mind. So chill, please.