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The line from the Campaign Setting that I find most helpful when discussing these matters is from the Paladin class description on page 47:
"Paladins worship many different deities. The most common
is Iomedae, the ascended goddess of valor and justice. Erastil
commands the obedience of a great many holy warriors,
particularly those who uphold justice for the common folk.
Paladins of Torag are highly sought as military commanders.
Adventuring paladins often spread the word of Sarenrae, the
goddess of the sun, honesty, healing, and redemption—for
paladins often seek adventure as a form of penance. Some
paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who
serve no specific god are actually more common."
Bolded the relevant bit. I find it entirely reasonable that a paladin who is devoted to the virtues of good, honor and strength could also be a follower of Cayden Cailean. This paladin would derive all his divine powers from his convictions or ideals rather than as a gift from the deity he wishes to venerate. YMMV.
Cheers!
There's no rule for this because there shouldn't NEED to be a rule.
Paladins MUST be lawful good.
In order to worship a deity, you need to follow that deity's teachings and philosophies and do things that would make that deity proud.
If you don't worship a lawful good deity, you are increasingly doing things to impress your deity that are at odds with being a paladin.
Once an axis of your alignment drifts more than one step away (law to chaos or good to evil), maintaining a paladin's code and following a deity's philosophy and teachings become pretty much impossible to maintain for long. And without long-term maintenance, that faith simply cannot hold the order together.
To be devout, you need to adhere closely to your deity's alignment. To be a paladin, you need to be lawful good. That pretty much sums it up, as far as I can tell.
On Golarion, the following deities in particular are established in game canon as having paladin orders: Erastil, Iomedae, Torage, Sarenrae, Abadar. I suspect that both Shelyn and Irori have a few paladins worshiping them as well, but they don't have as many as the other five. There are no paladins serving any of the other deities.
Dude, that's wrong. Wrong by your own writing. Paizo needs to fix this ridiculous paladin mess by opening up the alignment. In Mother of Flies there was a paizo written article whose sole purpose was to justify paladins of asmodeus.
It's a safe bet the one step rule for paladins will most likely be in the new setting book. James has said a few times none was included because no one thought they had to be, it's clear you can't go to far from your god and still worship that god.
As for the LG paladin serving Asmodeous articles, I think of that as being a mistake. After all it's silly you can't be a paladin of a CG god, yet they kinda oked an evil god, damned silly. I just fail to see how any LG person can have enough faith and be devot to an evil god to gain power and stay LG.
If they could then you should have LG clerics of LE gods as well.{Which makes as much sense if not more then LG paladins of an evil god}
Well ill thought out or not, it made it through proof reading to the printer and that means its here, disregarding it isn't really an option.
Now that we have anti-paladins it gets even funnier. So an anti-paladin and paladin of asmodeus walk into a bar...
Bolded the relevant bit. I find it entirely reasonable that a paladin who is devoted to the virtues of good, honor and strength could also be a follower of Cayden Cailean. This paladin would derive all his divine powers from his convictions or ideals rather than as a gift from the deity he wishes to venerate. YMMV.Cheers!
Except you would become non-lawful good as you follow your god, his teachings simply do not mesh with being Lawful good. So you can't really be devote to a god whose virtues you do not live by. CG is to far from the ideas and virtues of lawful good
Well ill thought out or not, it made it through proof reading to the printer and that means its here, disregarding it isn't really an option.Now that we have anti-paladins it gets even funnier. So an anti-paladin and paladin of asmodeus walk into a bar...
Would not be the first mistake they made they ruled as non canon, even recently they put in godless clerics which have been ruled a mistake and they are not clerics but druids or adapts.
Just because something makes it though does not mean it is not a mistake. And as paladins are LG an nothing else, serving A LE god is then a mistake.
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That is the thing... as a paladin I don't have to follow any deity at all. I am a paladin devoted to ideals and virtues. Who I happen to pay lip service to is largely irrelevant. The campaign guide specifically says that "paladins who serve no specific god are the most common."
I am not beholden to the deity I choose to venerate...
James wants players in a Golarion campaign that have clerics or paladins to have a deity, but the book does not support it. I am thinking he will make it official in the next book. I think a paladin should just be the enforcer of a deity's desires. That allows for the pally to remain LG even when following a non-LG deity. The deity would allow for some variance, but not a lot in the paladin actions with pursuit to evil.
Example, and not well thought out: A paladin of a god of battle and honor does not have to grant mercy in combat, but he would be look badly upon if he were to try to get a surprise attack on an opponent. Attacking someone who is not aware once a battle begins is ok, but the battle must start with the enemy knowing the paladin is there, or at the least that battle is about to begin. That way if a paladin is in the middle of a large scale battle he does not have to tap anyone on the shoulder before he runs them through.
PS: I know not everyone's sense of honor is the same, but the basic concept is that you must face your opponent directly, and preferably one on one. This most likely won't happen since D&d is team based, but I hope the point gets across with this theoretical deity.
That is the thing... as a paladin I don't have to follow any deity at all. I am a paladin devoted to ideals and virtues. Who I happen to pay lip service to is largely irrelevant. The campaign guide specifically says that "paladins who serve no specific god are the most common."
I am not beholden to the deity I choose to venerate...
Except if your devoted to the virtues of Cayden Cailean enough to be a follower your not LG and there for not a paladin.
Except if your devoted to the virtues of Cayden Cailean enough to be a follower your not LG and there for not a paladin.
Nowhere does it say you have to have your deity's alignment to be a follower. Worshipping a deity does not mean always agreeing with all of their actions.
Some central points for this conversation haven't been address yet:
1. The gods are "legitimate authority" which the paladin is required to respect. As such the offering of a prayer to cayden before a drink at the tavern may simply be paying due respects to a god.
2. Dedication to worship, and focus of worship. A paladin might offer prayers to Cayden because he appreciates the god's goodness and fun loving side, even if he doesn't partake himself (following a code and being LG doesn't mean you can't respect and like some chaotic qualities in other people and visa versa). It could be that the paladin ignores some of Cayden's "worse" traits to focus on the points that the paladin relates too.
Following and worshiping a god is not the same as acting like the god. Consider any of several modern faiths for examples.
A paladin could admire Cayden for several points -- his goodly nature, his bravery in battle, his honor... etc. The same paladin would probably disaprove of Cayden's love for drink, the means of Cayden's rise to godhood, and several other points on him.
However by focusing on what the paladin likes, and ignoring the rest a paladin could worship Cayden -- now would this be "proper" worship according to a cleric of Cayden? Maybe.
Afterall being a follower of a chaotic good god (of freedom and "doing it your way"), who would the cleric be to tell the paladin he's "doing it wrong"? He might point out Cayden's other aspects just to make sure the paladin isn't operating in ignorance, but that doesn't mean he'll scold the paladin for playing up what the paladin sees as the god's strengths while downplaying his percieved weaknesses.
3. Finally the paladin could casually worship several gods. He might pray to Pharsmea for the strength to face his ultimate fate, cayden for cleverness and bravery in battle, Erastil for help for the farmers, Shelyn for grace in the face of adversity as well as help appreciating the beauty in all things. Polytheism could easily explain a pray to most gods honestly as the paladin approaches each in accordance with their portfolio.
Except if your devoted to the virtues of Cayden Cailean enough to be a follower your not LG and there for not a paladin.Nowhere does it say you have to have your deity's alignment to be a follower. Worshipping a deity does not mean always agreeing with all of their actions.
If you don't agree with his basic principles then yes you would not be a follower. A LG person would not have much in common with a CG god, to follow that gods examples and virtues would would no longer be LG.
If you don't agree with his basic principles then yes you would not be a follower. A LG person would not have much in common with a CG god, to follow that gods examples and virtues would would no longer be LG.Except if your devoted to the virtues of Cayden Cailean enough to be a follower your not LG and there for not a paladin.Nowhere does it say you have to have your deity's alignment to be a follower. Worshipping a deity does not mean always agreeing with all of their actions.
See Abraham's post above yours. He said what I was thinking, only better and more detailed.
Could you give me a good example of a Chaotic Good fellow then?
In my opinion, the problem with this is that people often view inherently good things as lawful, and superficially "evil" or bad things are viewed as chaotic. For example, 1/3 of the party I'm DMing for believe that wanting money is evil, another 3rd believe it's chaotic, and the remaining few think that since it is doing what interests the person at stake, think it's neutral. It's difficult to define the alignments that any D&D edition has set in place.
Honestly, it's hard to say. Based on the Robin Hood example early in the thread (I didn't look far beyond the 1st few posts) you have to consider that there were many things happening. At the time, King George was the law, so he'd probably be viewed as Lawful Evil - but, Robin Hood fought for Richard the Lionheart who would likely be Lawful Good. At at the same time, Robin Hood opposed the laws that were in place which would be considered Chaotic. Generalizing isn't easy, since you could say many Chaotic people were Lawful in their own right. For example, pirates and ninjas followed a code, so can pirates and ninjas with a code be considered lawful? Samurai also followed a code, but we all know that Samurai could be just as double crossing as the rest of us, so could Samurai be chaotic? Finally, every Cleric thinks what they're doing is right, so are Clerics that sacrifice babies to giant snakes Lawful Good?
*facepalm at thread in general*
+1. My group just house rules Paladins to be of the same alignment as the deity. Serving Asmodeus? Fine- your Lawful Evil, you have Harm Touch instead of Lay on Hands, it's a cha based save for half damage. Failure means full damage and you get one of the effects that good paladins would normally remove. I.E. Your sickened, fatigued, blinded or stunned.
We don't really see a need to come up with another word for an evil paladin. Paladin to us means -Divine warrior of your faith- Why should LG deities be the only ones that have holy warriors?
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*facepalm at thread in general*+1. My group just house rules Paladins to be of the same alignment as the deity. Serving Asmodeus? Fine- your Lawful Evil, you have Harm Touch instead of Lay on Hands, it's a cha based save for half damage. Failure means full damage and you get one of the effects that good paladins would normally remove. I.E. Your sickened, fatigued, blinded or stunned.
We don't really see a need to come up with another word for an evil paladin. Paladin to us means -Divine warrior of your faith- Why should LG deities be the only ones that have holy warriors?
Yes however, they are divine warriors. Not Paladins.
Divine warroirs, that would be clerics. Oh and LN and NG gods can have paladins as well :)
Yes however, they are divine warriors. Not Paladins.*facepalm at thread in general*+1. My group just house rules Paladins to be of the same alignment as the deity. Serving Asmodeus? Fine- your Lawful Evil, you have Harm Touch instead of Lay on Hands, it's a cha based save for half damage. Failure means full damage and you get one of the effects that good paladins would normally remove. I.E. Your sickened, fatigued, blinded or stunned.
We don't really see a need to come up with another word for an evil paladin. Paladin to us means -Divine warrior of your faith- Why should LG deities be the only ones that have holy warriors?
That's a popular opinion. Which we choose to ignore =D
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So it would seem that a bunch of you are opposed to the idea that a paladin can be devoted to a set of virtues or ideals as opposed to a specific deity?
So no paladins dedicated to strength, honor and good? Unbound to any specific deity? Even thought the Campaign guide specifically makes this a possible choice? Heck, it even goes so far as to say this is the most common type of paladin. Even though the Core Rule Book allows even Clerics to "dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction"?
I'm curious then on what grounds you dismiss this idea of a paladin beholden to no specific deity?
This thinking, IMO, strikes me as unnecessarily restrictive and by extension, less fun. No wonder paladins get a bad rap... this type of thinking requires them to be cookie cutter clones, with little room for variation.
This is not for me and my game. YMMV.
Cheers
PS After all the facepalming is finished, should I expect an onslaught the little blue people? ;)
Setting and core rules are not the same. Setting always over rules core rules. Clerics in golarion must have a god, paladins do not need one, however if they have one then the god grants the power not some kind of "good pool"
If you choose to have a god, your gonna need to be within one step or there is little point to saying "I am a paladin of x" as your not his paladin, you don't spread his faith or believe in his teachings.
Everyone has a god or most do in golarion as they know what happens when they die if they do not, ya worship gods whose ideals you believe in and whose teachings hit home. So yeah one step is just common sense as ya don't have much in common with a CG god other then..well he's good. I don't believe in 90% of his teachings but hey he's good right? a CG god is a far from what you believe as a LE god is.
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Where in the Campaign Setting does it state that Cleric's must have a deity. I haven't come across this. (And not that it really matters anyway, but I am curious.)
You then agree with my point that paladins do not require, as per the Campaign Setting, a deity.
And I think that your math is off. :)
I'm a LG paladin who follows the ideals of honor, good and strength. Cayden is a CG "God of freedom, ale, wine, and bravery" whose portfolios include "Chaos, Charm, Good, Strength, Travel". I'd say I have more in common than 10%. In fact the only part that I am really opposed to is the chaos part, otherwise, I'm looking pretty good. :)
my math is not off, if ya follow a CG god you shift toward him over time you would fall. That is just they way it is. Why follow a god who you disagree with on about every damned thing? A god is not a list of domains you pick, he has teaching and ideas which conflict with LG, the domains you listed make up less then 10% of what that god is.
Paladins are called out not to need them in the CS{ All NPC paladins have gods however so this may change as well}, however if you follow a god you follow one you "get" if your only fit is "hey he is good" then it does not fit and you truly do not follow that god after all as you believe in nothing he teaches and almost nothing he stands for. You see some good points he has, but his bad out weighs the things you agree on.
One clerics, not getting into for a 1000th time, but the wording will be made crystal in the new setting book. You play a cleric in golarion he always has a god.
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No where I have found in either the Campaign Setting or the Core Rule Book does it state that any class is required to have a deity.
I don't see a contradiction.
Rangers, Druids, Clerics or Paladins. None state they receive their divine powers only as the result of deific worship in either source material.
If this is the case then where does this restriction spring from? Personal belief? Then you can have yours and I can have mine. No?
The restriction is in the book, Only clerics do not have "godless" version spelled out in the setting where as the others do, only clerics deal with "false gods" and such. It is implied with a hammer you have to have a god. If godless clerics existed some nations exist do not as written, that is just how it is. It has been stated this will be made crystal clear in the new book
In golarion clerics must have a god, you want to play a godless cleric you play an oracle as that is the role they have.
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...but I don't have to "follow" him. I am a paladin of no specific deity. I am LG and follow the paladin code of conduct. If I offer a prayer to a deity (CG or otherwise), or a bunch of deities, it does not mean that I am taking on their teachings lock stock and barrel.
If I were talking about a LG fighter who venerates a CG deity of war, strength and honor, would you require my alignment to shift as well?
If by "following" a deity with a differing alignment than LG, how do paladins of LN and NG deities not likewise lose their paladin status? Would they not also shift as they took on the teachings of their god? I mean, they would only have 10% in common with them, right? ;)
I got no issues with ya offer prayers up to him once and again when you do something he may cover, as ya do to a bunch of other gods, that would be common.
But ya would have a personal god, one you would see more eye to eye with everyone does. Which is why it's hard to me for a player to justify not serving that god as his paladin.
Also LN and NG have much, much more in common then LG and CG. CG is two steps away and has just as much in common with LG as LE does.
As I said however gods are more then a list of domains and an AL, some one step gods would not have paladins.
Setting and core rules are not the same. Setting always over rules core rules. Clerics in golarion must have a god, paladins do not need one, however if they have one then the god grants the power not some kind of "good pool"
If you choose to have a god, your gonna need to be within one step or there is little point to saying "I am a paladin of x" as your not his paladin, you don't spread his faith or believe in his teachings.
Everyone has a god or most do in golarion as they know what happens when they die if they do not, ya worship gods whose ideals you believe in and whose teachings hit home. So yeah one step is just common sense as ya don't have much in common with a CG god other then..well he's good. I don't believe in 90% of his teachings but hey he's good right? a CG god is a far from what you believe as a LE god is.
What a hideous fallacy.
I thought Paizo was trying to get away from "Lawful Stupid". Lawful is inherently secondary to the good part of paladin-hood. No other class is as restrictive or potentially damaging to a party as a whole then a Paladin.
Your argument that a cleric is a divine warrior completely invalidates the purpose of the paladin class... if that's how you feel about it, why even play with a paladin anyway?
No where I have found in either the Campaign Setting or the Core Rule Book does it state that any class is required to have a deity.
I don't see a contradiction.
Rangers, Druids, Clerics or Paladins. None state they receive their divine powers only as the result of deific worship in either source material.
If this is the case then where does this restriction spring from? Personal belief? Then you can have yours and I can have mine. No?
The rule is not in the book anywhere, so officially you can follow the core rules, but James did assumed people would pick up the vague reference instead of flat out stating it. I am sure when the new version comes out it will be stated as a rule that clerics must have a deity.
SS-It is a lot easier to just say what I said than try to debate on the issue, since myself and others don't see a rule as rule unless it is stated. Hints are not rules, and you have been on the site long enough to know that anything other than specific wording does not normally get you to far in a debate.
From the way I have understood things, people don't choose to be paladins, they are chosen to be paladins by deities. I think you can be a paladin of honor and war, and give lip service to a deity, but that does not make you one of his paladins.
This is not a contradiction with the book because you can be paladin with a deity, but the deity won't claim you or give you powers unless you believe in his ideals 100%.
*facepalm at thread in general*+1. My group just house rules Paladins to be of the same alignment as the deity. Serving Asmodeus? Fine- your Lawful Evil, you have Harm Touch instead of Lay on Hands, it's a cha based save for half damage. Failure means full damage and you get one of the effects that good paladins would normally remove. I.E. Your sickened, fatigued, blinded or stunned.
We don't really see a need to come up with another word for an evil paladin. Paladin to us means -Divine warrior of your faith- Why should LG deities be the only ones that have holy warriors?
I've honestly thought about doing this and just calling Paladins "Crusaders" or something like that, possibly making it so they have to be of an extreme alignment (LG, LE, CG, or CE), much like the Crusader from Tomb of Battle. I'd probably change Smite Evil to Smite anything that's of either opposing alignment and get rid of the extra, extra damage vs certain things (like normal Paladins and undead, evil dragons, etc)
The line from the Campaign Setting that I find most helpful when discussing these matters is from the Paladin class description on page 47:
"Paladins worship many different deities. The most common
is Iomedae, the ascended goddess of valor and justice. Erastil
commands the obedience of a great many holy warriors,
particularly those who uphold justice for the common folk.
Paladins of Torag are highly sought as military commanders.
Adventuring paladins often spread the word of Sarenrae, the
goddess of the sun, honesty, healing, and redemption—for
paladins often seek adventure as a form of penance. Some
paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who
serve no specific god are actually more common."Bolded the relevant bit.
Bold a little more there. :) The sentence actually says that paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common than paladins who server Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, the non-LG gods. Paladins of Iomedae, Erastil, Torag and Sarenrae are not included. Otherwise, "paladins who serve no specific god" would be its own sentence qualifying the rest of the paragraph, rather than part of the sentence about Abadar, Irori, and Shelyn.
Joana it does say that even if it does not make a lick of sense. In golarion you need a god or bad things happen when ya die{or not good things anyhow] So if a paladin has a god why would he not serve them? It makes little sense you would not.
These gods have paladins
Abadar
Erastil
Iomedae
Irori
Sarenrae
Shelyn
Torag
Joana it does say that even if it does not make a lick of sense. In golarion you need a god or bad things happen when ya die{or not good things anyhow] So if a paladin has a god why would he not serve them? It makes little sense you would not.
These gods have paladins
Abadar
Erastil
Iomedae
Irori
Sarenrae
Shelyn
Torag
I feel like pointing out that no one is mentioning paladins of Asmodeus. In the write up for the god in the Mother of Flies module, number 29 for those kids without it, it says paladins of Asmodeus exist. Page 63-64 writes how Asmodeus pulls it off and why he has them.
Thought I'd throw that bit out to cause a bit more arguing.
If they are legal then so would be NE clerics of Sarenrae to be blunt. I have not read the article as I do not own it, however a paladin could not worship an evil god and stay LG.
It really is that simple
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It's actually the reverse, the God should be within one step of the Paladin, since the Paladin doesn't have a choice on alignments. Or even more cogently, only certain dieties will sponsor paladins and the dieties in principle should be of an alignment that would not preclude the Paladin from associating with at least some of thier clerics.
Should does not mean must however. A Neutral god can be amenable to a Lawful Good character. Now, the question is "does the word 'follow' mean 'must be the same alignment as' according to the rules?" I posit no, since clerics can follow a god while being one step different from it in alignment. Since there is no such step rule for paladins and gods, it is open to interpretation.
The paladins code limit you more then any other rule
*A paladin must be of lawful good alignment
*Respect legitimate authority,
*Act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),
*Help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)
*punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
This puts the nail in worshiping any evil god
Kinda a related note, in pathfinder some of the paladins powers {Divine Bond and Holy Champion] are spelled out as coming from a god. So in all likely hood the new book will require you to have a god as at lest two powers come from gods and not "belief in good"
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That's a popular opinion. Which we choose to ignore =DYes however, they are divine warriors. Not Paladins.*facepalm at thread in general*+1. My group just house rules Paladins to be of the same alignment as the deity. Serving Asmodeus? Fine- your Lawful Evil, you have Harm Touch instead of Lay on Hands, it's a cha based save for half damage. Failure means full damage and you get one of the effects that good paladins would normally remove. I.E. Your sickened, fatigued, blinded or stunned.
We don't really see a need to come up with another word for an evil paladin. Paladin to us means -Divine warrior of your faith- Why should LG deities be the only ones that have holy warriors?
House rules....well rule.
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So it would seem that a bunch of you are opposed to the idea that a paladin can be devoted to a set of virtues or ideals as opposed to a specific deity?
So no paladins dedicated to strength, honor and good? Unbound to any specific deity? Even thought the Campaign guide specifically makes this a possible choice? Heck, it even goes so far as to say this is the most common type of paladin. Even though the Core Rule Book allows even Clerics to "dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction"?
I'm curious then on what grounds you dismiss this idea of a paladin beholden to no specific deity?
This thinking, IMO, strikes me as unnecessarily restrictive and by extension, less fun. No wonder paladins get a bad rap... this type of thinking requires them to be cookie cutter clones, with little room for variation.
This is not for me and my game. YMMV.
Cheers
PS After all the facepalming is finished, should I expect an onslaught the little blue people? ;)
None needed...........yet.
Creative Director
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If they are legal then so would be NE clerics of Sarenrae to be blunt. I have not read the article as I do not own it, however a paladin could not worship an evil god and stay LG.
It really is that simple
Good is two steps away from evil. Thus, a neutral evil cleric of Sarenrae isn't legal. "Two steps away" would allow for the following alignments for Sarenrae: LG, NG, CG, or plain old neutral.
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Creative Director
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I feel like pointing out that no one is mentioning paladins of Asmodeus. In the write up for the god in the Mother of Flies module, number 29 for those kids without it, it says paladins of Asmodeus exist. Page 63-64 writes how Asmodeus pulls it off and why he has them.
Honestly, I am okay with this. I'm not a fan of paladins of Asmodeus, and had I noticed that bit before the volume went to print, I would have removed all mention of them.