Would there be any support for a unique spell list for the Oracle made up from both Arcane and Divine spells?
My experience with Favoured Soul's in 3.5 shows that the Divine Spontaneous caster has a very limited choice of spells compared with an Arcane spontaneous caster [Sorcerer]. Even more so if the Oracle is being used [certainly not suggesting it should] as a Cleric replacement.
Just how many spells on the Cleric's list is a Oracle player going to want to cast again and again, the way spontaneous casters do?
If "Its not all about worshiping a single deity... far from it. Oracles are polytheistic at best." is true then they don't really need to be strictly Divine casters.
Would there be any support for a unique spell list for the Oracle made up from both Arcane and Divine spells?
we know the witch will have a arcane/divine special list so I am not sure if the Oracle needs to go down that path too
Would there be any support for a unique spell list for the Oracle made up from both Arcane and Divine spells?we know the witch will have a arcane/divine special list so I am not sure if the Oracle needs to go down that path too
Ok, so which 1st & 2nd level non-cure Divine spells are you going to cast again & again ?
1st level
Bane:
Bless:
Bless Water:
Cause Fear:
Command:
Comprehend Languages:
Curse Water:
Deathwatch:
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law:
Detect Undead:
Divine Favor:
Doom:
Endure Elements:
Entropic Shield:
Hide from Undead:
Inflict Light Wounds:
Magic Stone:
Magic Weapon:
Obscuring Mist:
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law:
Remove Fear:
Sanctuary:
Shield of Faith:
Summon Monster I:
Maybe Pro Evil, and Divine Favor & Shield of Faith IF I want to go melee.
2nd level
Aid:
Align Weapon:
Augury:
Bear’s Endurance:
Bull’s Strength:
Calm Emotions:
Consecrate:
Darkness:
Death Knell:
Delay Poison:
Desecrate:
Eagle’s Splendor:
Enthrall:
Find Traps:
Gentle Repose:
Hold Person:
Inflict Moderate Wounds:
Make Whole:
Owl’s Wisdom:
Remove Paralysis:
Resist Energy:
Restoration, Lesser:
Shatter:
Shield Other:
Silence:
Sound Burst:
Spiritual Weapon:
Status:
Summon Monster II:
Undetectable Alignment:
Zone of Truth:
Hold Person and....buff the party [meh]
You'll be level 6 before you can do 3d8 damage to a single target with Searing Light!
My point is that the Divine list is hugely re-active, not offensive so you have very little variety. It suits the Cleric perfectly but I just don't want to play a Cleric wannbe when choosing to play an Oracle.
I already posted this on another thread but I'll repost it here because it is relevant.
I also agree that this new "Oracle" core class needs a pick-me-up in its spellcasting choices. I think the cleric list is fine but the bonus spells awarded should be more of a choice then a "cleric domain -force this spell onto you choice". For one thing I noticed that the uber 20th level ability holds little power in some of the "Focus" areas. If you look at the Wind Focus the following are the only spells that have the air/lightning subtype that the class hands to you:
1) Gust of Wind
2) Control Winds
3) Whirlwind
From the Cleric list you could choose these spells as spell known to add to the list:
1) Wind Wall
2) Air Walk
3) Wind Walk
4) Summon Monster VI (Invisible Stalker)
And that's it. Maybe these following spells are typo's in the Pathfinder book because they have air or lightning effects but not the "subtype" so therefore are unaffected by the Final Revalation ability:
1) Control Weather
2) Storm of Vengence
3) Summon Monster I - V and VII - IX (elementals are listed as "Elemental" subtype not "Air or Lightning")
I personally suggest allowing the players access to all the following Air/Lightning spells (which are all the ones in the book" not already discussed:
1) Shocking Grasp
2) Whispering Wind
3) Call Lightning
4) Lightning Bolt
5) Call Lightning Storm
6) Chain Lightning
7) Summon Nature's Ally VIII (Cloud Giant only)
8) Elemental Swarm
I also would like to see the oracle take the role of a seer and suggest the following additions (I am not 100% about these):
1) Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
2) Arcane Eye
3) Detect Scrying
4) Scrying Greater
I have not looked as deep into the other Foci but I share similar complaints about them.
Perhaps taking VedounMar's suggestion -- The Favored Soul's(Complete Divine) spell progression seems more appropriate for a divine caster...-- would be a good idea (I am not 100% sure about this but right now it sounds good) as long as you get rid of the "bonus spell idea" and add my suggested spells above to the list they get access to... maybe make the player take at least 1 air/lightning spell of their choice at each level or whatever is appropriate for their oracles Focus.
I don't mean to be antagonistic, but the cleric list has some pretty nice proactive abilities that make for an offensive caster:
1 - Command, Doom, Obscuring Mist
2 - Darkness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Shatter, Silence, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon
3 - Bestow Curse <3, Blindness/Deafness, Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Prayer, Searing Light, Stone Shape, Wind Wall
4 - Chaos Hammer, Dismissal, Giant Vermin, Holy Smite, Imbue w/ Spell Ability, Order's Wrath, Poison <3, Unholy Blight
5 - Greater Command, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Insect Plague, Righteous Might, Slay Living, Wall of Stone
6 - Animate Objects, Banishment, Blade Barrier, Greater Dispel Magic, Geas, Harm
7 - Destruction, Dictum, Holy Word, Repulsion, Word of Chaos
8 - Antimagic Field, Earthquake, Fire Storm
9 - Energy Drain, Implosion, Storm of Vengeance
And of course, the Summon Monster & Planar Ally series are also fantastic. The thing is that the cleric list is designed as a defensive/buffing/support list, while the wizard is an offensive list. Don't mark off the cleric's ability to cast offensively though.
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I don't mean to be antagonistic, but the cleric list has some pretty nice proactive abilities that make for an offensive caster:
1 - Command, Doom, Obscuring Mist
2 - Darkness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Shatter, Silence, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon
3 - Bestow Curse <3, Blindness/Deafness, Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Prayer, Searing Light, Stone Shape, Wind Wall
4 - Chaos Hammer, Dismissal, Giant Vermin, Holy Smite, Imbue w/ Spell Ability, Order's Wrath, Poison <3, Unholy Blight
5 - Greater Command, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Insect Plague, Righteous Might, Slay Living, Wall of Stone
6 - Animate Objects, Banishment, Blade Barrier, Greater Dispel Magic, Geas, Harm
7 - Destruction, Dictum, Holy Word, Repulsion, Word of Chaos
8 - Antimagic Field, Earthquake, Fire Storm
9 - Energy Drain, Implosion, Storm of VengeanceAnd of course, the Summon Monster & Planar Ally series are also fantastic. The thing is that the cleric list is designed as a defensive/buffing/support list, while the wizard is an offensive list. Don't mark off the cleric's ability to cast offensively though.
Add to that that at least 2 of the Revelations I can remember off the top of my head allow you to see through mist, and obscuring mist becomes one of the best first level spells :)
I also don't think it would be unbalancing to have some oracles gaining access to the druid spell listI agree, and was actually going to post the same thing. Yes, the cleric divine spells are great for support, but the druid spell list seems to fit the oracle quite well. Allowing them to select from either list would be ideal. With how restricted their spells are, having a wider choice of spells would be great.
I think it would be reasonable to open up a number of spells to the Oracle based on the particular Focus chosen. I haven't looked closely at the list yet, but opening up any spell from particular domains that are related to the focus, or maybe with particular spell descriptors. That might be a good way to open up the oracle list but keep it limited and focused to the particular oracles...
Jason has already said that a separate list for each foci is out of the question because of space issues which is why I'm asking for a single unique list.
I'd rather have the Bards current list than the Cleric's.
Also, although the individual foci lists do include some arcane spells, it's a bit sad that you don't get them until 2 level after the wizard started casting them!
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I think the Oracle needs to cast from both the Cleric AND Druid list, I was building a 1st Level Oracle today as a pregen for the play test, and settled on Cure Light Wounds and Command, as none of the other spells really looked too interesting for my players.
A Cleric's list works because they can change their choices on a daily basis (knowing ALL those spells), but for an Oracle, it is woefully understocked. Even assuming a Charisma of 18 he'll still only get 4 spells to cast in a day (and probably doesn't want to spend them ALL on CLW). Entangle, Produce Flame are flashy options that the Oracle might need access to for its spells to have enough kick to be competitive and fun to play.
Flavorfully, allowing them access to druid spells makes a lot of sense. They are polytheistic, and from my perspective there is nothing that would limit them to non-nature gods. Nature as a whole tends to be rather impartial so there is no reason its gods would only give its power to druids.
Also if the which class does indeed have arcane/cleric casting, it would make a nice spectrum for the oracle to have cleric/druid casting. That way all the bases are covered and it gives more versatility not only to the oracle, but also to players who can play a wide spectrum of types, histories, and personalities with the variations.
I was thinking just now that I would prefer the cleric spell list that they have with the addition of all Air/Lightning spells for the Wind Focus... All Acid/Earth spells to the Stone Foci... All Fire spells to the Flame Focus... All Necromancy spells to the Bones Focus... All ??? (not sure what) to the Battle Focus... and All Cold/Water spells to the Wave Focus.
The reason I don't favor the druid spell list is then you could see the Flame Focus with control winds or whirlwind which should be only for the Wind Focus or some other such nonsense.
I also do not favor a unique spell list because I always find them annoying when new product comes out. Think of the Hexblades spell list from 3.5, it hardly ever got new spells when new product came out.
What about the Assassin... that was even worse in 3.5... maybe 1 book added 2 spells to their list.
Whatever they do they need the spells to match the Focus. Nothing is more annoying then saying that you have the Wind Focus and can cast only 4-5 wind/lightning spells at level 20. The Druid/Sorceror/Wizard gets more than that by then ;)
I was thinking just now that I would prefer the cleric spell list that they have with the addition of all Air/Lightning spells for the Wind Focus... All Acid/Earth spells to the Stone Foci... All Fire spells to the Flame Focus... All Necromancy spells to the Bones Focus... All ??? (not sure what) to the Battle Focus... and All Cold/Water spells to the Wave Focus.
The reason I don't favor the druid spell list is then you could see the Flame Focus with control winds or whirlwind which should be only for the Wind Focus or some other such nonsense.
I also do not favor a unique spell list because I always find them annoying when new product comes out. Think of the Hexblades spell list from 3.5, it hardly ever got new spells when new product came out.
What about the Assassin... that was even worse in 3.5... maybe 1 book added 2 spells to their list.
Whatever they do they need the spells to match the Focus. Nothing is more annoying then saying that you have the Wind Focus and can cast only 4-5 wind/lightning spells at level 20. The Druid/Sorceror/Wizard gets more than that by then ;)
I agree that the foci need to match the available spells. This can be handled in a similar way that specialization does for wizards. Only rather than getting bonuses to the casting ability, you get bonus spell of that type (fire for fire spells, and I would suggest buffing spells for the battle focus, bulls strength and the like)
You can take these spells through general spell progression but its slower, and you naturally have to give up other choices to do so. I see the focus spells as supplemental.
I was liking the idea of each focus specifying either the cleric or the druid list, but yeah... now that it's been brought up, I don't see a big issue with just giving both to the whole class. Sounds like a solid idea to me.
Ok, so I spent the better part of last night talking to a friend of mine that is basically a rule sponge, The general consensus is that the Oracle isn't very balanced with itself (though a lot of classes aren't) but is sorely lacking in spells per day too, particularly if you are limiting it to cleric divine spells. Less spell power at low levels than a sorcerer as there is a lack of diversely applicable spells like magic missile. The cleric undoubtedly has a lot of useful spells, but the power of the cleric is that he can tailor his spell list in any given day, to be ready for the situation. The power of the sorcerer is that it has a few spells that it can cast a lot of times at any time. The Oracle either needs more known spells (though not necessarily more spells per day) to compensate for the lower power level of divine spells in this format, or the ability to dip into druid spells to give it the power and diversity. Otherwise your just running a bad rogue or a bad sorcerer.
At the moment, we've got the base/core cleric spell list. The same "problem" with regards to offensive spells was apparent in 3.xE. Enter the Spell Compendium and the various setting and Complete series plus regionalized (e.g.Frostburn) books and you you'll end up with enough "firepower" soon enough. I reckon that PF will sooner or later have similar books like the SC, so nae need to bother about this right now. If there's need, get your hand at the Spell Compendium and adapt some spells from there.
Would also just like to remind people that we're guaranteed to see some custom Oracle spell lists on the forums and/or the pathfinder wiki.
A spell-list is relatively easy to design, it's just space-intensive.
Adding in the entire Druid spell list sounds a bit excessive.
It would be more fun if each particular focus unlocked a relevant group of spells that the Oracle could then choose from in addition to the Cleric spell list. And by group, I mean something much larger than the default 9 currently given for each. As a rough example, an Oracle of Fire could choose any spell with the Fire descriptor to be a known spell. That may be a bit unbalancing in some instances, but really, it would be nice enough to be able to choose more spells having to do with your focus.
I like this idea a lot.