So, in general, I think the Orders are some of the coolest features the cavalier class is getting. Not only is the idea inspiring, but it gives them a range of abilities to differentiate between one order and another.
That being said, I think the orders are presenting a few balance issues as they currently stand. Some of them are simply too good, and some are simply not good enough. Also, I'm afraid they contribute to the "too many little abilities" problem the cavalier currently faces.
So, with that in mind, I thought I'd start a thread for us to chop up the specific order abilities, and discuss what works and what doesn't. Below is my own analysis (please feel free to argue with me).
Cockatrice
In general, I think this order is a great idea. It does, unfortunately, need a little bit of a boost. It seems a little underpowered
challenge Nice. Not only does it fit the flavor, it stacks with inspire courage.
Skills Honestly, this is pretty useless. I don't think I've ever seen food/water/shelter issues come up. There's too much magic and too many rangers in the world.
Aid Allies This sounds really good in theory, but it's a waste of an action. It needs to extend Aid another past 1 round as well.
tactics I love the idea of this ability so much. But, as a 1/combat power, it needs higher numbers and it needs to stack with bard abilities.
Act As One This is a problem. It's a strong ability, but I find it redundant with tactics. It should be an enhancement of that power, or something completely different (or an enhancement of Aid allies).
Dragon
Not only is this a cool and fun order, but it feels balanced, powerwise.
challenge Very cool. Probably needs to be a little bit more damage to be worth it.
Skills Very useful and thematic (esp given how nasty demoralize can get.
Braggart Fun to RP and mechanically impressive. Plus it works with existing feat chains.
Steal Glory That's...so...good. Literally, the character will be stealing glory IC and OOC, and it's not overwhelmingly strong. Perfect.
Moment of Triumph Also good. It doesn't overlap with the other abilities, and its flavor fits its mechanics.
Lion
Overally, this is decent, but I'm a little concerned it steals from other classes. I'd like to see it changed a bit to avoid overlap.
challenge I'm not sure why the Lion is the order that does this. Nothing about them seems to indicate dodging that much to me.
Skills Ok, but not particularly useful.
Lions Call I hate this. The paladin already gets an anti-fear aura. The comp bonus to attack is too small.
For the King This ability is alright. It feels a little bardic, but it's not morale, so at least it stacks.
Shield of the liege Very useful ability, and it synergizes with one of the oaths. Plus, it protects w/o feeling like a taunt button. Neat. This might, however, fit the Order of the Shield better.
Shield
In general, this order needs a major boost. It has a couple of good abilities and a couple that are very lackluster.
challenge this needs badly to be changed to a competence bonus. There are enough morale bonuses floating around the class (let alone the game).
Skills Honestly, the heal skill just doesn't matter that much.
ResoluteThis is an awful, awful ability. I'm really hoping it's a typo because, otherwise, quite useless. Just give them DR. Seriously.
Stem the tide Decently useful. Makes a shield Cavalier a good tank.
Protect the Meek Also pretty cool. I like that it synergizes with stem the tide.
Star
Really just not a good order. We've already got paladins to do this, and they do it much better.
challenge Meh. Isn't this what Oaths do right now?
Skills I'm pretty sure putting ranks in know (rel) is more than you'll ever need.
Calling Not very useful. The paladin already does it better, and I don't see this as multiclassing very often.
For the Faith The paladin still does it better, and when he does it, it stacks with the bard.
retribution This one is ok, assuming you're actually in the rare circumstances to make use of it.
Sword
Too strong. Mounted Mastery takes this too far.
challenge Only part of this order that isn't blatantly awesome, and, in a bardless party, this is still darn good.
Skills No feinting against this guy. Pretty decent.
By My Honor Cool, depending on the oath used. Awesome, but balanced.
Mounted Mastery Way too good compared to the other Cavaliers. "Here's, bulls strength my giant wolf mount too, that way I'm getting double the bonus." Animal companions get ridiculously high stats AND the cavalier has a built-in multiplier mechanic. Needs to be halved.
Knights Challenge Not broken like MM, but still seems a bit better than what the others are getting.
Thoughts? Opinions? Challenges?
Shield
In general, this order needs a major boost. It has a couple of good abilities and a couple that are very lackluster.
Wow, I really don't agree. I thought the Shield was by far the strongest order for most typical front line characters.
challenge this needs badly to be changed to a competence bonus. There are enough morale bonuses floating around the class (let alone the game).
None of this class's morale bonuses clash with the Shield Challenge except the Oath of Vengeance. It's an incredible "tank" challenge, that actively punishes the target of the challenge for ignoring the Cavalier without forcing any kind of behavior on it or indeed directly affecting it at all. It's what Knight's Challenge should have been.
ResoluteThis is an awful, awful ability. I'm really hoping it's a typo because, otherwise, quite useless. Just give them DR. Seriously.
DR doesn't stack. Resolute is incredible precisely because it does stack with any kind of DR. If you made it into DR/-, it really would suck.
DR doesn't stack. Resolute is incredible precisely because it does stack with any kind of DR. If you made it into DR/-, it really would suck.
Huh? Am I missing something? This amount of damage seems like almost nothing. reducing 5 damage at level 20 is almost not worth keeping track of. And, this isn't really reducing, it's knocking you out instead of killing you.
Huh? Am I missing something? This amount of damage seems like almost nothing. reducing 5 damage at level 20 is almost not worth keeping track of. And, this isn't really reducing, it's knocking you out instead of killing you.
DR doesn't stack. Resolute is incredible precisely because it does stack with any kind of DR. If you made it into DR/-, it really would suck.
5 damage per hit. And it's as good as reducing damage, because nonlethal damage is healed by the same amount lethal damage is every time you're hit with any healing. In other words, it increases the effectiveness of any healing spell you receive.
Let's say that you're a level 10 cavalier with 100 hit points that just got hit 10 times for 11 damage each hit. You reduce 30 of that 110 damage to nonlethal, but you're still knocked unconscious with 30 nonlethal and 80 lethal damage (-10 effective hp). However, when the cleric casts cure serious wounds on you and restores 30 hit points, you're now at 0 nonlethal and 50 lethal (50 effective hp). If you'd taken it all as lethal damage, you'd be at 0 nonlethal and 80 lethal (20 effective hp).
A note on the dragon order, in play test the dragon order challenge bonus didnt happen. It always seemed either the cavalier would get hit or their would be another ally there threatening the target. I think it would only work in wide open encounters with lots of enemies, and even then it would only be a matter of time until the cavalier got hit. I think this mechanism needs to be looked at further.
Definitely feel that Resolute is too fiddly as it stands right now. Adds way too much paper work... I created a cavalier to playtest and redid him from Shield to Dragon simply because I didnt want that head ache, so... consider that playtesting, I guess :P
I really dont find it overpowered as DR, but maybe they're worried about keeping that the Barbarian's sacred cow (they get it later, but also end up at 5/- )
How is it "way too much paperwork"? You're writing down two numbers instead of one. Is that really too much work?
And changing it to DR would dramatically weaken it, not overpower it.
How is it "way too much paperwork"? You're writing down two numbers instead of one. Is that really too much work?And changing it to DR would dramatically weaken it, not overpower it.
Nothing wrong with him feeling that way, and I don't really see how it would weaken it. Plus, it's not like you can't get taken out of the fight by nonlethal.
I don't really see how it would weaken it.
DR does not stack. If you have a Cavalier of the Shield with DR 5/bludgeoning, he gets no benefit whatsoever from Resolute if Resolute is DR X/anything, unless X>5. Similarly, if he had adamantine full plate, which grants DR 3/-, his DR from altered-Resolute wouldn't stack.
With how Resolute works now, it does stack. And if my example above doesn't show you how powerful Resolute is, I don't know what to say. It's easily the most powerful of the first-tier Order abilities.
As for getting taken out of the fight by nonlethal damage, I'd much rather be at 80 lethal damage and 30 nonlethal damage if I have 90 hitpoints than 120 lethal damage (in which case I'm dead). Not to mention it doubles the effectiveness of healing.
DR does not stack. If you have a Cavalier of the Shield with DR 5/bludgeoning, he gets no benefit whatsoever from Resolute if Resolute is DR X/anything, unless X>5. Similarly, if he had adamantine full plate, which grants DR 3/-, his DR from altered-Resolute wouldn't stack.With how Resolute works now, it does stack. And if my example above doesn't show you how powerful Resolute is, I don't know what to say. It's easily the most powerful of the first-tier Order abilities.
As for getting taken out of the fight by nonlethal damage, I'd much rather be at 80 lethal damage and 30 nonlethal damage if I have 90 hitpoints than 120 lethal damage (in which case I'm dead). Not to mention it doubles the effectiveness of healing.
Well, that's certainly your opinion, but you present it like it's incontrovertible fact, which I don't think it is. In fact, I find it an incredibly weak ability. As far as I'm concerned, taken out of the fight is annoying whether it's lethal or nonlethal. At least you won't require rezzing when you're knocked out. Meanwhile, the order of the sword is laughing at you.
A note on the dragon order, in play test the dragon order challenge bonus didnt happen. It always seemed either the cavalier would get hit or their would be another ally there threatening the target. I think it would only work in wide open encounters with lots of enemies, and even then it would only be a matter of time until the cavalier got hit. I think this mechanism needs to be looked at further.
Interesting. I wouldn't have anticipated that. It makes sense, though.
Well, that's certainly your opinion, but you present it like it's incontrovertible fact, which I don't think it is.
You don't think 120 lethal damage on 90 hit points is dead? I've got some news for you, then.
In fact, I find it an incredibly weak ability. As far as I'm concerned, taken out of the fight is annoying whether it's lethal or nonlethal. At least you won't require rezzing when you're knocked out. Meanwhile, the order of the sword is laughing at you.
The order of the sword is dead. The order of the shield is not. Who's laughing at who?
The order of the sword is dead. The order of the shield is not. Who's laughing at who?
Just who the heck gets hit 10 times for 11 damage at level 10? Goblin campaigns must be more popular than I thought. Honestly, how bad would the healer have to be for that 5 nonlethal to keep you alive constantly?
Just who the heck gets hit 10 times for 11 damage at level 10?
The guy with DR.
Honestly, how bad would the healer have to be for that 5 nonlethal to keep you alive constantly?
Do your healers cast a healing spell after every single attack you suffer? Man, I'd hate to play in your campaigns, because you'd not even finish a single fight before you ran out of resources.
For the King This ability is alright. It feels a little bardic, but it's not morale, so at least it stacks.
Sorry for the overreaction, I keep forgetting that not everyone noticed that bards don't give moral bonuses any more- they give competence bonuses. This is a great thing. There were several moral bonuses given through spells but not too many competence ones so now they stack. I think they're intention is for the bard to give moral bonuses (boni?) and the cavalier to give moral ones. The cleric will have to resort to enhancement bonuses or something. (why aren't there more sacred bonuses?)
For the record, I love the resolute ability- DR isn't exactly hard to come by. Turning lethal damage to nonlethal is.
Also you have the order of the cockatrice all wrong- it might be on par with the order of the sword. Aid Allies is best for skill checks (you're right about it being useless in battle). Tactics might be pretty useful (haven't tried it) specifically because different allies can take different bonuses. Fighting units that need to get in range can, those that already are take the attack bonus and everyone else takes the AC- very well might be worth an action. Oh and Act as one is great- flat out great instead of just you charging and attacking... everyone does. With not penalty to AC...and increased accuracy. Please tell me how giving everyone an extra turn (albeit with limited options) isn't powerful. And seeing as both it and Tactics can only be used once per battle a peice... no I like order of the cockatrice, easily one of the better orders- let's a fighter think like a mage now and then. It needs a new name though, as cockatrices tend to be solitary, How about order of the wolf?
most of your other comments make sense, though I'm not sure if mounted mastery is too powerful- it's good but I think the rest of the abilities just need to pony up to it's standards, not have it cow down to them.
For the King This ability is alright. It feels a little bardic, but it's not morale, so at least it stacks.
Oops, you're right. My apologies. I can never remember that. The idea of Morale is ingrained since 3.5. In that case, that ability is just terrible.
Oops, you're right. My apologies. I can never remember that. The idea of Morale is ingrained since 3.5. In that case, that ability is just terrible.
Not completely terrible mind, as many groups won't have bards. (they seem unpopular- I love them but I'm not everybody) The reason it is competence is to make it stack with the other cavalier abilities.
Just who the heck gets hit 10 times for 11 damage at level 10?The guy with DR.
That....didn't make any sense. Plus, I asked the wrong question, since you'd be level 18 b/f you got 5 of this lame psuedo-DR. I guess I should've asked who gets hit for 11 damage at a time at level 18.
Do your healers cast a healing spell after every single attack you suffer? Man, I'd hate to play in your campaigns, because you'd not even finish a single fight before you ran out of resources.
Yeah that's...actually not what I said at all. I was saying that in your examples, you're regularly taken down into the negatives, which is when the ability comes into play. I'm saying, hopefully your healers don't allow that to happen. And, in most groups I've played in, high level characters get taken down by a handful of big hits, not numerous low damage hits. What do you tend to fight?
Not completely terrible mind, as many groups won't have bards. (they seem unpopular- I love them but I'm not everybody) The reason it is competence is to make it stack with the other cavalier abilities.
You know, this seems to vary so much from group to group that it's almost impossible to know. On one hand, those of us who see a ton of bards in their games don't want them stomped on, while, on the other hand, half the gaming community seems never to use them. But, interestingly, it seems to be either/or.
That....didn't make any sense. Plus, I asked the wrong question, since you'd be level 18 b/f you got 5 of this lame psuedo-DR. I guess I should've asked who gets hit for 11 damage at a time at level 18.Just who the heck gets hit 10 times for 11 damage at level 10?The guy with DR.
My example, which was at level 10, was 3 points shifted per hit. You're the one who started blabbing on about 5 points per hit. Now you're trying to use an example at level 10 and shift it unchanged to level 18 to try to invalidate it? You're the one who makes no sense.
As for my comment, it seems pretty blindingly obvious to me. "Who gets hit for 11 damage at level 10?" "The guy with DR". Meaning, the guy who has damage reduction and thus takes less damage from every hit.
Yeah that's...actually not what I said at all. I was saying that in your examples, you're regularly taken down into the negatives, which is when the ability comes into play. I'm saying, hopefully your healers don't allow that to happen. And, in most groups I've played in, high level characters get taken down by a handful of big hits, not numerous low damage hits. What do you tend to fight?
Do your healers cast a healing spell after every single attack you suffer? Man, I'd hate to play in your campaigns, because you'd not even finish a single fight before you ran out of resources.
You asked, and I quote, "How bad would your healer have to be for that 5 damage to keep you alive?". That implies that one hit is all that's happening in between heals (either that or you're only getting 1 damage shifted per hit and getting hit 5 times). So, yes, that was exactly what you were saying. It may not have been what you meant, but it's exactly what you said. Since I have no way of reading your mind, I have to operate with what you write.
By the way, I'm not really just speculating, here. I've played a Crusader in an actual honest-to-god game before, and they have a very similar damage-shifting mechanism (it delays the damage a round instead of turning it into nonlethal, but it doesn't delay nearly as much damage as the cavalier's version does). It was utterly invaluable to keeping the character alive, and it plays extremely well in conjunction with DR. Turning it into DR would seriously weaken the Crusader class and, from that observation, I conclude that it would seriously weaken an Order of the Shield Cavalier.
Five points of damage reduction at level 20 is ridiculously weak. Five points of damage reduction that doesn't actually provide damage reduction (but instead converts damage into nonlethal damage) is not worth keeping track of. The only use for converting damage into nonlethal damage is generally for out of combat purposes--it heals faster, and you'll heal double in between fights.
Converting the damage reduction to REAL damage reduction--perhaps equal to half the cavalier's level--would be worth it.
Turning it into DR would seriously weaken the Crusader class and, from that observation, I conclude that it would seriously weaken an Order of the Shield Cavalier.
I disagree. If you were to turn the crusader's delayed damage pool into MEANINGFUL damage reduction, you would not seriously weaken the crusader class. (Outside of losing the furious counterstrike bonus, of course, but that's a sidenote.)
I removed a post.
Feel free to repost the point with the vitriol taken out.
Five points of damage reduction at level 20 is ridiculously weak. Five points of damage reduction that doesn't actually provide damage reduction (but instead converts damage into nonlethal damage) is not worth keeping track of. The only use for converting damage into nonlethal damage is generally for out of combat purposes--it heals faster, and you'll heal double in between fights.
Converting the damage reduction to REAL damage reduction--perhaps equal to half the cavalier's level--would be worth it.
First, you're never going to see a base class with DR 10/-. There aren't even any prestige classes that give that much. If you think that's going to happen, you're going to be disappointed. The absolute best you can expect from this is a straight conversion from 1-5 lethal->nonlethal to DR 1-5/-. That would seriously weaken the Order of the Shield because DR 5 is trivially easy to get, and you can get DR 3/- just from nonmagical adamantine armor.
Second, the "but it's not REAL damage reduction" argument is just as silly as the people who say that a World of Warcraft Death Knight's Vampiric Blood isn't REAL damage reduction. No, technically, it doesn't change incoming damage. Mechanically, though, it's identical to damage reduction as long as you get healed in mid-fight (and if you're not getting healed mid-fight, either the fight is incredibly easy or you're going to die regardless of DR) and not getting killed in one hit (in which case you at least have the chance to just be knocked unconscious instead of killed, which is still a notable benefit). Even if you don't get healed mid-fight, it still conserves healing resources exactly as damage reduction does, which means you can fight more often in a single day.
Third, "it's not worth keeping track of" is sheer laziness. I had a party TPK because they dealt one half hit point less damage than they needed to. Every single hit point counts. Taking 5 stacking extra hit points off every hit is a big deal for a front-line fighter.
EDIT: I responded to Zurai's inflammatory post, which was removed. Oh, well.
William, I don't appreciate your negative, condescending tone. Please don't speak to me in such a manner in the future. Since you're so hung up on mathematics, I'll provide some math-heavy examples that demonstrate why the cavalier's fake DR just isn't worth it.
First, however...
EDIT: And if you think any base class is going to give you DR 10/-, you're a lunatic.
Barbarians can get DR 8/--, so DR 10/-- isn't exactly a stretch. Not to mention that there are spells that provide more damage reduction than that in the Core book, so that argument is null and void.
You people say it's "not worth keeping track of". Don't force your laziness on the rest of us.
This has nothing to do with me being lazy, William. It has to do the ability being very weak. Please don't call me lazy in the future.
Also, I am assuming that you don’t know how nonlethal damage works because of your insistence on it being sufficiently power. Let me quote the rules text:
Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
Staggered and Unconscious: When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.
Note that when your total nonlethal damage and lethal damage exceeds your hit points, you fall unconscious.
Now, to use math to prove that I am correct. We will create a level 10 cavalier and a level 20 cavalier. We will assume that the level 10 cavalier has a Constitution of 18 (+4 bonus) and that the level 20 cavalier has a Constitution of 22 (+6 bonus). We will pit them against a CR 10 melee-oriented monster to examine the math.
Level 10 cavalier: 10d10 + 40 HP (95 hit points). From the resolute class feature, he can convert three (3) points of lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
If I am recalling the rules correctly, the cavalier is CR 8 or 9. We'll place him against a dire tiger (CR 8).
The tiger has three attacks: two claws (2d4 + 8) and a bite (2d6 + 8). On average, these do 13 and 15 damage, respectively. Thus, when a dire tiger attacks a cavalier, he’s going to take 41 damage total (assuming all attacks hit). A total of nine (9) points of damage will be converted into nonlethal damage.
Each round, we’re going to assume that the tiger does average damage and that all attacks hit because it makes the math easier. Calculating the average damage per round when factoring the cavalier’s AC doesn’t actually affect the exercises mathematical validity; it merely prolongs the exercise.
Before combat:
Cavalier – 95/95 HP (0 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 1:
Cavalier – 63/95 HP (32 lethal, 9 nonlethal)
Round 2:
Cavalier -- 31/95 HP (64 lethal, 18 nonlethal)
Round 3:
Claw attack #1: 21/95 HP (74 lethal, 21 nonlethal) Cavalier is staggered because his lethal + nonlethal total equals his max HP.
Claw attack #2: 11/95 HP (84 lethal, 24 nonlethal) Cavalier is unconscious because his lethal + nonlethal total exceeds his max HP.
Bite attack: -1/95 HP (96 lethal, 27 nonlethal) Cavalier is unconscious and dying.
Summary: The cavalier falls unconscious and dies in the third round of combat. Out of combat, he will heal his nonlethal damage quickly. Too bad his lethal damage is so high that it won’t matter. In short, his nonlethal damage conversion has been worthless.
Let us compare the cavalier’s odds when he has ACTUAL damage reduction—in this case, DR 3/--.
Before combat:
Cavalier – 95/95 HP (0 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 1:
Cavalier – 63/95 HP (32 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 2:
Cavalier -- 31/95 HP (64 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 3:
Claw attack #1: 21/95 HP (74 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Claw attack #2: 11/95 HP (84 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Bite attack: -1/95 HP (96 lethal, 0 nonlethal) Cavalier is unconscious and dying.
Summary: The cavalier falls unconscious and dies in the third round of combat. However, the cavalier is still capable of acting after the second claw attack, unlike the cavalier with fake damage reduction. This potentially gives the cavalier a chance to act on the next round (if the bite attack were to miss), greatly increasing his chances of survival—he could get in a devastating full attack and potentially beat out the tiger.
Now, on to a level 20 cavalier. 20d10 + 120 HP (230 HP). We’ll pit the CR 18-19 cavalier against a CR 17 green dragon. The green dragon has a bite attack (4d6 + 18), two claw attacks (2d8 + 12), two wing attacks (2d6 + 6), and a tail slap (2d8 + 18). Again, assuming all attacks hit (AC merely prolongs the exercise), the cavalier will be taking an average of 33 + 21 + 21 + 13 + 13 + 27 damage, for a total of a whopping 128 damage a round.
The cavalier with fake DR will convert 30 points of lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
Before combat:
Cavalier – 230/230 HP (0 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 1:
Cavalier – 132/230 HP (98 lethal, 30 nonlethal)
Round 2:
Bite attack: 104/230 HP (126 lethal, 35 nonlethal)
Claw attack #1: 88/230 HP (142 lethal, 40 nonlethal)
Claw attack #2: 72/230 HP (168 lethal, 45 nonlethal)
Tail slap: 50/230 HP (190 lethal, 50 nonlethal) Cavalier is unconscious because his lethal + nonlethal total exceeds his maximum HP.
Wing attacks: 34/230 HP (206 lethal, 60 nonlethal) Cavalier unconscious.
Round 3:
Bite attack: 6/230 HP (234 lethal, 65 nonlethal) Cavlier unconscious.
Claw attack #1: -10/230 HP (240 lethal, 70 nonlethal) Cavalier is unconscious and dying.
Claw attack #2: -26/230 HP (256 lethal, 75 nonlethal) Cavalier is dead.
Summary: Cavalier with fake damage reduction falls unconscious partway through the second round and dies in the third round.
Now, for the cavalier with real damage reduction—he’ll negate 30 points of damage each round.
Before combat:
Cavalier – 230/230 HP (0 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 1:
Cavalier – 132/230 HP (98 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 2:
Cavalier – 34/230 HP (196 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 3:
Bite attack: 6/230 HP (234 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Claw attack #1: -10/230 HP (240 lethal, 0 nonlethal) Cavalier is unconscious and dying.
Claw attack #2: -26/230 HP (256 lethal, 0 nonlethal) Cavalier is dead.
Summary: The cavalier is still conscious and able to act until partway through the third round, unlike the cavalier with fake DR. This allows him the opportunity to act, possibly even swaying the battle (what with the action economy and all that).
Now, before you start nitpicking and analyzing, allow me to counter several of your arguments preemptively.
1. You didn’t factor AC into this!
You’re right, I didn’t. That’s because AC will reduce the average damage rolls of the monsters, which will only extend the analysis that I need to do. It has no effect on the conclusions. I could assume that each attack did 5% of its total damage and the results would be the same: the cavalier with fake DR underperforms the cavalier with real DR in all instances.
2. But-but-but the nonlethal damage gets healed at the same rate as lethal damage, so the cavalier with fake DR is getting twice the healing!
So? If the cavalier has 50 lethal damage and 50 nonlethal damage and is healed for 25 points of damage, his damage is going to be reduced to 25 lethal/25 nonlethal. Meanwhile, the cavalier with real DR and only 50 lethal damage is going to be reduced to 25 lethal/0 nonlethal. Since that nonlethal damage counts toward the cavalier falling unconscious, the cavalier with real DR wins again.
3. The cavalier isn’t supposed to single-handedly be able to take out a CR X monster! He would have teammates!
That is completely irrelevant (although a CR 8 cavalier should have a 50-50 chance of beating a CR 8 monster). The point is that nonlethal damage conversion stinks, and it will always stink compared to real damage reduction.
4. Who cares if the cavalier survives for another round? It’s not like he’ll do anything anyway.
Wrong. On a full attack at level 20, a cavalier has the potential to dish out a ton of damage—even a sword-and-board cavalier! Even your generic, boring longsword + shield cavalier can deal 5d8 + 100 damage on a full attack. And if he’s charging, it gets even crazier—take a lance + Spirited Charge + Supreme charge. Without going outside of the PRPG Core rulebook, the cavalier is going to do 4d8 + 80 damage on a charge, and he’s going to get a free CMB check on top of that. That extra action could make or break the cavalier’s chances of survival.
Interesting side-note: Resolute functions against disintegrate. Take that, DR/-!
Edit: Tom, of the only two arguments Zurai has actually made, you've ignored one and glossed over the other.
Glossed: The healing resources expended to recover for each are identical. You say so yourself, but then you go on to state that this is not an advantage for Resolute, as if anyone ever claimed it was.
Ignored: They stack. The 10th-level cavalier in adamantine full plate has DR 3/- and Resolute 3, which is downright awesome. This has been Zurai's main point from the start, though he allowed himself to get distracted by irrelevant counterarguments.
Barbarians CAN get DR 10/--, so that invalidates your statement right there.
False. Barbarians get DR 5/-. They can go up to DR 8/- while raging by giving up three rage powers. That's as far as they can go, and they give up 30% of their rage powers to do it. Maybe you don't know the rules as well as you think you do?
Not to mention that there are spells that provide more damage reduction than that in the Core book, so that argument is null and void.
That makes my argument, not invalidates it.
DAMAGE REDUCTION DOES NOT STACK.
That means the easy availability of DR outside of class features weakens any class feature that grants DR.
Furthermore, your long and drawn out mathematical example very conveniently ignores the fact that DR does not stack. Your example cavalier with the nonlethal damage conversion can very easily have adamantine full plate at level 10; certainly by level 20. That means he's got DR 3/- that wouldn't stack with any class DR, but DOES stack with damage conversion. You've consistently ignored this point in every single one of your posts, even though I've pointed it out in every single one of mine.
Interesting side-note: Resolute functions against the likes of disintegrate, horrid wilting and finger of death. Take that, DR/-!
Partially correct. It works against ranged attacks, including ranged attack spells, but horrid wilting and finger of death are not attacks, and thus are not affected by Resolute. Note that it also won't convert energy damage, so that rules out most other spells. It does work against disintegrate, though.
Zurai, I corrected a few errors in my initial post. Please feel free to respond at your leisure. Hopefully you will use mathematics to support your notion that damage reduction is somehow less good than fake damage reduction.
It works against ranged attacks, including ranged attack spells, but horrid wilting and finger of death are not attacks, and thus are not affected by Resolute.
Y'know what's funny? My first thought was magic missile, then I realized exactly what you point out, and browsed for untyped weaponlike spells. Hit on disintegrate and thought it would be funny to pull up a few more examples of how to trivialize the effect of 5-point ablation. Whoops. :P
My example, which was at level 10, was 3 points shifted per hit. You're the one who started blabbing on about 5 points per hit. Now you're trying to use an example at level 10 and shift it unchanged to level 18 to try to invalidate it? You're the one who makes no sense.As for my comment, it seems pretty blindingly obvious to me. "Who gets hit for 11 damage at level 10?" "The guy with DR". Meaning, the guy who has damage reduction and thus takes less damage from every hit.
You're right, Zurai, I have no idea why I quoted that 5. Silly me. Unfortunately, you aren't actually answering my question. What, in this hypothetical situation, are you actually fighting? It's been my experience that, unless you're fighting a couple of monsters with 5 attacks each, a lot of low-level monsters, or a couple of dual wielders solo, you probably won't be the target of that many attacks in one round (let alone hit by all of them) and those attacks probably won't be that low. It's been my experience that you die by fewer, larger hits, and that conversion of 3 won't really matter.
You asked, and I quote, "How bad would your healer have to be for that 5 damage to keep you alive?". That implies that one hit is all that's happening in between heals (either that or you're only getting 1 damage shifted per hit and getting hit 5 times). So, yes, that was exactly what you were saying. It may not have been what you meant, but it's exactly what you said. Since I have no way of reading your mind, I have to operate with what you write.
In no way does that sentence even come close to implying that you get healed in between every hit. I was saying that you probably won't be hit 10 times in one round (unless your DM is mean) and that, if you're getting severely damaged over 2 or 3 rounds, the healer should probably, at some point, make his or her way over in your direction and, ya know, keep you from dying. Or you could withdraw. Either way, there's some incompetence or CR issues if you're getting hit 10 times with absolutely no healer in sight.
y the way, I'm not really just speculating, here. I've played a Crusader in an actual honest-to-god game before, and they have a very similar damage-shifting mechanism (it delays the damage a round instead of turning it into nonlethal, but it doesn't delay nearly as much damage as the cavalier's version does). It was utterly invaluable to keeping the character alive, and it plays extremely well in conjunction with DR. Turning it into DR would seriously weaken the Crusader class and, from that observation, I conclude that it would seriously weaken an Order of the Shield Cavalier.
If you don't see the difference between delaying the damage a round and taking nonlethal, you may need a refresher on how nonlethal damage works.
And, while we're on the subject, what you can get from stacking is no big deal. the barbarian can get 8/- from rage powers and class levels, which is about what you can get with this power and adamantine armor (only you'll go unconscious rather than not take the damage).
Zurai, I corrected a few errors in my initial post. Please feel free to respond at your leisure. Hopefully you will use mathematics to support your notion that damage reduction is somehow less good than fake damage reduction.
Sure. I've got no problem using math to show my points (ask tejon. Or Dennis the Ogre). I'll use your same numbers, even. I'll make only two changes: First, they'll both get healed once for 25 hit points when they first go under 1/3 health. Second, they'll get adamantine full plate. Technically FC could go for some different expenditure of money instead, but it doesn't make any difference for your specific mathematical comparison.
Real Cavalier:
Cavalier – 95/95 HP (0 lethal, 0 nonlethal)
Round 1:
Cavalier – 72/95 HP (23 lethal, 9 nonlethal)
Round 2:
Cavalier -- 49/95 HP (46 lethal, 18 nonlethal)
Round 3:
Claw attack #1: 42/95 HP (53 lethal, 21 nonlethal)
Claw attack #2: 35/95 HP (60 lethal, 24 nonlethal)
Bite attack: 26/95 HP (69 lethal, 27 nonlethal) Cavalier is unconscious because his nonlethal damage exceeds his current hit points.
Round 4:
Healing -- 51/95 HP (44 lethal, 2 nonlethal)
Tiger attacks -- 28/95 HP (67 lethal, 11 nonlethal)
Round 5:
Cavalier -- 5/95 HP (90 lethal, 20 nonlethal); Cavalier is unconscious and dieing, but not dead.
Now Fake Cavalier:
Fake Cavalier – 95/95 HP (0 lethal)
Round 1:
Fake Cavalier – 63/95 HP (32 lethal)
Round 2:
Fake Cavalier -- 31/95 HP (64 lethal)
Round 3:
Healing -- 56/95 (39 lethal).
Tiger attacks -- 24/95 (71 lethal)
Round 4:
Fake Cavalier -- -8/95 (103 lethal); Fake Cavalier is unconscious and dieing.
Fake Cavalier goes unconscious a full round before Cavalier does.
As for the lvl 15 abilities, I think they should really be lvl 20. Also, they vary wildly in their strength. My rough feelings on the Orders:
Cockatrice is an odd one. His Challenge ability is very good but perhaps not flavorful, his aid bonus I don't see happening much, and tactics could potentially be useful in rare instances.
Act as One is quite breakable, encourages using animal companions as independent entities to get more charges in (especially with pounce...), encourages having parties of 4 Cavaliers, and is generally not something I'd want around. Also, happens every combat rather than scaling/day. It does require an immediate, but I think it's fairly ridiculous and it doesn't help that it doesn't sacrifice an action. I call this the best out of all the order 15's
(I think Cockatrice skills are quite good, though. Can never have enough Perception in a party, really.)
Dragon is sorta cool, I see problems activating his Challenge with not enough benefit. I see problems getting Steal the Glory to ever trigger (because the likelyhood of being adjacent to an enemy an ally threatens, given your challenge ability, is very low. That ally critting him, also low. That ally not killing him with a crit, even lower) Steal the Glory and his Challenge ability are directly at odds with each other. I like the "I get crazy" lvl 15 ability, but the fact that you don't use Charisma for anything until then is somewhat counterproductive.
Lion is generally balanced with a decent lvl 15. However, I really think that Shield of the Liege fits way better under Shield, and the Protect the Meek fits way better with the Lion "protecting its' pride" through sheer aggression.
Shield is the weirdest but sorta fun. His challenge ability isn't going to happen often, if at all. Resolute is interesting, sort of like a half-DR type situation, but not super-crazy. Stem the Tide is interesting, given Protect the Meek, but otherwise... sorta mediocre. Protect the Meek: See lion.
Sword, pretty solid. By My Honor is appropriate and interesting. I haven't really crunched the number on Mount Mastery, but at a glance it only seems to be just like +10 dmg max on a charge, which isn't that broken at all, considering Act as One. Knight's challenge, also appropriate, I like how it not only gives an improved challenge, but also gives an extra use of challenge for the combat, if something rough pops up.
Zurai, I corrected a few errors in my initial post. Please feel free to respond at your leisure. Hopefully you will use mathematics to support your notion that damage reduction is somehow less good than fake damage reduction.Sure. I've got no problem using math to show my points (ask tejon. Or Dennis the Ogre)...
Fake Cavalier goes unconscious a full round before Cavalier does.
So DR is inevitably better than fake DR, with the caveat that fake DR stacks.
1. The first comparison would be, fake DR + admantine vs. Real DR + adamantine, which is flawed because the adamantine doesn't stack and he would take that 15k gp in +2/3AC extra from magic bonuses. Difference? Possibly, depends on the monster.
2. The second comparison would be between that and another lvl 2 ability, with its best competition in the category being an extra oath from Sword at +1 or the +CHA competence bonus from Lion. The extra oath is probably better than DR 1 at lvl 2, but they don't scale equally, either.
+4AC with an improved extra Protection oath might make up the difference between the 3 fake DR at lvl 10, but that's not really within the mathematical realm I want to go, accounting for average monster tohit, average monster damage, and average monster attacks at that specific level.
Regardless, you have proven it is a competitive ability worth the slot, and I agree with that, for sure. While I want to have input, the farthest I want to get into this argument is that Resolute is competitive, but I don't think it is too good.
|
Velderan IMX as a DM the damage that kills you is often the little stuff, rather than the big hits. Yes, big nasty melee beasts can and will take a PC down no matter the level. However encounters with single strong opponents are far less challenging, far more swingy, and IMO far less satisfying than ones with multiple weak and semi-tough opponents.
Also the Lethal to Nonlethal conversion helps over the course of the adventuring day to conserve resources. Remember the assumption of the game is that the PC's will face about 4 or 5 encounters before they have to rest. Using examples that break that model don't illustrate anything than the PC is facing a non-typical encounter and thus the design philosophy that the class was built under cannot hold up.
--Wild Pazuzu on the Vrocks
You're honestly blowing 15,000 gp on adamantine armor instead of spending it on something useful? For that amount of money, you can get a +2 shield and +3 armor (technically, it costs a few thousand less), which would effectively reduce the damage done by the tiger by 25%. This would reduce the tiger to 24 damage per round. In the case of the dragon, it would reduce the damage to 96 damage per round BEFORE damage reduction. The "real" cavalier's paltry DR 3/-- will negate a total of 18 damage from the dragon's attacks, leaving the dragon's average damage per round at 110.
The "real" cavalier falls flat again.
Now, you're going to lament how I'm shifting the goalposts, how I'm bringing AC into the equation when I disregarded it before, how I'm a cheating meanie face. All these things are untrue. The reason that I'm bringing AC into the equation now is because you insisted on purchasing extraneous equipment. The "real" cavalier wasted 15k on getting DR 3/--. The "fake" cavalier spent his money to make his opponents hit him 25% less of the time.
Regardless, you have proven it is a competitive ability worth the slot, and I agree with that, for sure. ... I don't think it is too good.
That's all I wanted to point out.
You're honestly blowing 15,000 gp on adamantine armor instead of spending it on something useful? For that amount of money, you can get a +2 shield and +2 armor (technically, it costs a few thousand less), which would effectively reduce the damage done by the tiger by 25%. This would reduce the tiger to 24 damage per round. In the case of the dragon, it would reduce the damage to 96 damage per round BEFORE damage reduction. The "real" cavalier's paltry DR 3/-- will negate a total of 18 damage from the dragon's attacks, leaving the dragon's average damage per round at 110.
The "real" cavalier falls flat again.
Now, you're going to lament how I'm shifting the goalposts, how I'm bringing AC into the equation when I disregarded it before, how I'm a cheating meanie face. All these things are untrue. The reason that I'm bringing AC into the equation now is because you insisted on purchasing extraneous equipment. The "real" cavalier wasted 15k on getting DR 3/--. The "fake" cavalier spent his money to make his opponents hit him 25% less of the time.
You were the one who said it was easy to get DR 10. "There's even spells that do DR 10!". I picked adamantine full plate because it was an obvious, nonmagical, iconic choice. There are much better, much cheaper options. For example, the Magic Item Compendium has shirts (take up a different slot than armor) that cost 9k and give DR 3/<select damage type>. Then there's getting the party spellcasters to buff you. Then there's using temporary items. Etc. DR is easy to get. Damage conversion is, literally, impossible to get in magic item form.
EDIT: Also, you can get adamantine plate for 5,500 just by crafting it. Takes a lot of time, but saves you 11,000 gold that you could use for other stuff.
While damage conversion can't be found in magic items, that doesn't mean it's worth much of anything. Getting the Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization line of feat in the form of magical items isn't possible, but it's not really worth buying in the first place. If you were to craft that +2 shield/+3 armor, it'd be half price, too. Reducing an enemy's damage by 25% is almost always better than reducing it by three.
Getting the Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization line of feat in the form of magical items isn't possible
False.
but it's not really worth buying in the first place.
Also false.
If you were to craft that +2 shield/+3 armor, it'd be half price, too.
One costs a handful of skill points. The other costs skill points and two feats (Master Craftsman and Craft Arms and Armor).
Reducing an enemy's damage by 25% is almost always better than reducing it by three.
Also very much more difficult to do.
Also stacks with reducing it by 3.
___
However, it's clear that you have no intention of being convinced. Since I've stated my case clearly enough to convince other people -- people who are willing to listen to both sides -- I'm going to rest my case on the topic of the Resolute ability. Feel free to respond, though; I cede the last word on this topic to you.
I find that pretending to take the higher road is often the last resort of those who know that their argument cannot withstand scrutiny.
|
|
I find that pretending to take the higher road is often the last resort of those who know that their argument cannot withstand scrutiny.
So would a mechanic that granted the Cavalier say Fast healing or Temporary hit points for a similar amount be just as bad?
You stated Flat DR is better than nonlethal damage AND point out that it's easy to get DR from existing spells & magic items. Zurai points out that class based DR and cheaply gained DR (cause there's always more gp's than class abilities) cannot stack, but nonlethal conversion DOES stack with cheap DR... More protection is better, especially when healing reduces both lethal and nonlethal equally.
--Vrocket's Red Glare!
I find that pretending to take the higher road is often the last resort of those who know that their argument cannot withstand scrutiny.
Ahh... must resist... argument...
Lvl 2 WBL = 1k and you can't even get fake DR 1/- for that. I'm pretty sure it's competitive for the slot. Especially since CLW is fickle at low levels.EDIT: ACtually, wait, that makes your argument better. The better point is that at 20th level you use adamantine toilet paper, so the extra 5 on top is nice.
So would a mechanic that granted the Cavalier say Fast healing or Temporary hit points for a similar amount be just as bad?
No; that might actually be worth something.
You stated Flat DR is better than nonlethal damage AND point out that it's easy to get DR from existing spells & magic items. Zurai points out that class based DR and cheaply gained DR (cause there's always more gp's than class abilities) cannot stack, but nonlethal conversion DOES stack with cheap DR... More protection is better, especially when healing reduces both lethal and nonlethal equally.--Vrocket's Red Glare!
Zurai also added 15k worth of gold to the cavalier's abilities. I pointed out that he could reduce enemy damage by 25% for cheaper. In almost every case, an effective 25% reduction in enemy damage is better than DR 3/--.
You stated Flat DR is better than nonlethal damage AND point out that it's easy to get DR from existing spells & magic items. Zurai points out that class based DR and cheaply gained DR (cause there's always more gp's than class abilities) cannot stack, but nonlethal conversion DOES stack with cheap DR... More protection is better, especially when healing reduces both lethal and nonlethal equally.Zurai also added 15k worth of gold to the cavalier's abilities. I pointed out that he could reduce enemy damage by 25% for cheaper. In almost every case, an effective 25% reduction in enemy damage is better than DR 3/--.
Sure, at like Lvl 7, but that's not completely true. Against certain enemies, that's not really true, either. But yeah, the 15k you lose on adamantine is going to get you 1AC at higher levels maybe, which is worth 3DR for adamantine.
Although, I don't really get what your argument is. Do you not like DR in general? That 15k is well-spent on DR if it only gets you 1 AC. If we're saying DR in general sucks, that's probably not true.
Is DR not worth AC for certain costs at certain levels? Of course.
Is the Resolute good because it stacks? Yes, if you're buying DR in addition, it's good.
Is Resolute competitive for a lvl 2 Order slot? I definitely think so.
Would Resolute still be good if it was DR? Yes.
Would it be too good if it was DR? Possibly, when compared to other lvl 2 abilities. You can also buy that pretty easily when it starts scaling well, but it frees up resources for other things and it's not necessarily easy to get 5DR/- for a lot of groups.
Basically that sums up the argument that's taken place here. AND THIS THREAD HAS BEEN STAINED WITH ITS BLOOD. (nonlethal, though)