Different Oracles Should Have Different Spell Lists

[Epic Meepo]

Since we're no longer bound by backwards compatibility, I think it's high time we got a class whose spell list varies based upon its focus. Many oracles could still use the cleric spell list, but I could see some instead using the druid spell list or the witch spell list. (But not the sorcerer/wizard spell list, since that would too much overlap with the sorcerer.)

You could dictate the spell list that an oracle uses in the description of each focus/mystery instead of the description of the class itself. The Bones focus, for example, could have a line reading, "Spell List: all cleric spells." The Waves focus could say, "Spell List: all druid spells except those with the fire descriptor." An hypothetical Pentacles focus could say, "Spell List: all witch spells."

Having spell list determined by focus instead of by class would also make the oracle class infinitely more modular. For example, say you eventually create a psion spell list. You could then design a Mind focus that has, "Spell List: all psion spells," without needing to rewrite anything in the oracle class itself.

[Laramon]

Has merit. Maybe the developers can play around with it a little and then decide for themselves.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

We're no longer bound by backwards compatibility? When did that happen?

I like using my PHBII, DMGII and 3rd Party stuff during my PF games. In any case, it's not a bad idea, but the Druid spell list is rather weaker than the Cleric list (due to the Druid's other remarkable class features).

[Rufus Reeven]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

We're no longer bound by backwards compatibility? When did that happen?

I like using my PHBII, DMGII and 3rd Party stuff during my PF games. In any case, it's not a bad idea, but the Druid spell list is rather weaker than the Cleric list (due to the Druid's other remarkable class features).

Wouldn't say the Druid spell list is as such weaker...just not as strong in some of the areas that Clerics should be better at. But for damage, I prefer the Druid list to the Cleric...

[Luthia]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

We're no longer bound by backwards compatibility? When did that happen?

I like using my PHBII, DMGII and 3rd Party stuff during my PF games. In any case, it's not a bad idea, but the Druid spell list is rather weaker than the Cleric list (due to the Druid's other remarkable class features).

Agreed for that part.

Personally I was half considering if the oracle is "different enough" from bot the Cleric and Druis to merit it's own spell list, while I fear that such will fill too much by far. Hopefully however there will be a few new spells designed specifically with the new classes in mind.

I have say, at the point of the "Different spell lists for different Foci" that it would, in my eyes, simply make the Oracle lack a "shared something that make all oracles oracles and not "spontaneous druids or clerics".

At the moment my preferred option by far would be to write them their own spell list, but make it consist of a mix of old cleric and druid spells (who knows maybe even a sorcerer/wizard spell here and there).

[LazarX]

I suspect that Paizo is keeping to economy of design and presentation, they're not creating new spell lists for the new character types they're working on just giving them new ways to access what's out there. I suspect the same regimen is going to be use for Paizo's Psionic classes as well, they'll be modeled on the sorcerer and will basically have unique forms of access to either a spell list or subset of existing spell lists. Mainly because they want to keep page space low for using these folks as NPCs in modules.

[nighttree]

I think I would be OK with different spell lists under certain foci, for example saying that a Wilderness focus uses the Druid spell list instead of the Cleric spell list.

But on a whole, I think creating separate spell lists for each and every domain would be overly bothersome.

[Kolokotroni]

Honestly I prefer them to share a spell list with a core class. It avoids the biggest problem with new spell casters. New Spells in later books will automatically apply, and you dont need to include every potential spell casting class in the description of every spell. Granted it will likely be a while before we see a book with new spells after the APG but it will prevent the problem in advance, instead of having to worry about it if and when new spells come along.

[Xuttah]

I prefer adding bonus spells to a fixed spell list, like the sorceror. It provides a little bit of flavour for each different focus/bloodline, but keeps the baseline the same.

Also, it's much easier to choose spells from supplimental sources like AP's or modules when you use the core class spell list. If a great new spell is Cleric 4, you can use it. With the custom list, the spell needs to say War Focus Cleric 4 or you're boned. A lot of the splatbook classes from WotC had that problem.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Kolokotroni

[Epic Meepo]

If I've given the impression that I want custom lists, then I haven't explained myself clearly enough. I'm proposing that each focus use an existing class class list, not a custom class list.

(I just threw in Waves oracles not getting fire spells because I figured oracles shouldn't be able to cast spells directly opposed to their focus, the way clerics can't cast spells opposed to their deities' alignments. I wasn't meaning to suggest that each focus cherry pick a few spells here and a few spells there.)

[edit] And by "not being constrained by backwards compatibility," I mean "We don't have to exactly recreate an existing class, so we can do stuff that's never been done in a class before." Not, let's make a class with an unique spell list that doesn't exist in the core rules.[/edit]

As for different spell lists taking away some sort of baseline for the class: I don't buy that argument. Spontaneous casters can't swap out their spells every day, so they are defined by their spells known, not by their spell list. Two spontaneous casters with the same spell list might have absolutely no spells in common, so the shared list isn't a baseline at all.

Also, no existing Pathfinder class has an entire spell list that varies based on its theme. It seems to me that giving oracles a variable spell list - as opposed to just tacking on a few bonus spells exactly the way the sorcerer does it - gives them a defining feature that sets them apart from other casters.

As is, saying, "All oracles use the cleric spell list," isn't doing anything to make them unique. Neither is adding bonus spells in the exact same way the sorcerer does. Instead of setting them apart, its just making them similar to a pair of existing classes.

But I'm not particularly invested in this suggestion, so if it doesn't fly, it doesn't fly. *shrug*

[Zurai]

Different oracles do have different spell lists. I guarantee that an Oracle of Flames is going to choose a vastly different array of spells compared to an Oracle of Bones.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Due to space, each oracle Foci will use the same base spell list. Adding 10 new spell lists to the book is not a good use of our space. We customize through the bonus spells.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Epic Meepo]

*facepalm*

I never suggested creating new spell lists, and I don't know why everyone thinks that I did. I suggested adding one single line of text to each focus, allowing a few of them to use the entire, existing, need-not-be-reprinted-anywhere druid spell list or the entire, existing, need-not-be-reprinted-anywhere witch spell list instead of the cleric spell list.

Adding "Spell List: Oracles with the Nature focus use the druid spell list instead of the cleric spell list," is only 19 words, and does not require the creation of any new spell lists.

But never mind. The traditional approach is fine, too.

[mdt]

Epic Meepo wrote:

*facepalm*

I never suggested creating new spell lists, and I don't know why everyone thinks that I did. I suggested adding one single line of text to each focus, allowing a few of them to use the entire, existing, need-not-be-reprinted-anywhere druid spell list or the entire, existing, need-not-be-reprinted-anywhere witch spell list instead of the cleric spell list.

Adding "Spell List: Oracles with the Nature focus use the druid spell list instead of the cleric spell list," is only 19 words, and does not require the creation of any new spell lists.

But never mind. The traditional approach is fine, too.

Actually, I think this is a good idea as well. I don't think Jason realized what was being suggested.

[Draeke Raefel]

I think it is much easier to use the existing cleric spell list as the gods( and not nature or whatever ) are giving the cleric their spells. Also all of the Foci give a number of additional spells known to the oracle that are not necessarily on the cleric spell list.

[stuart haffenden]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Due to space, each oracle Foci will use the same base spell list. Adding 10 new spell lists to the book is not a good use of our space. We customize through the bonus spells.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

That's cool, but could the base spell list be a combination of Divine and Arcane spells, like the Bard. This would only require one list.

I think many feel that Oracle spell's known using the Divine spell list is considerably weaker than say the Sorcerer. Assuming you're not taking the place of a Cleric and can by-pass all the Cure's you're still left with an unremarkable list to choose from. The Sorcerers balancing factor for having so few spells known is being able to pick from all Arcane spells [a large list].

[Epic Meepo]

stuart haffenden wrote:

That's cool, but could the base spell list be a combination of Divine and Arcane spells, like the Bard. This would only require one list.

No. No new spell lists. That's not what this thread is about.

[tejón]

I recommend posting a fresh topic: "Differently focused oracles should draw their spells from different core spell lists." So then maybe Jason will click again. Because, +1. ;)

[Epic Meepo]

tejón wrote:

I recommend posting a fresh topic...

That's a good suggestion, but I'll leave it for someone else to do. Advocating spell list versatility isn't one of my main goals in this playtest.

[Gibbenzgob]

I already posted this on another thread but I will repost it here because it is relevant.

I also agree that this new "Oracle" core class needs a pick-me-up in its spellcasting choices. I think the cleric list is fine but the bonus spells awarded should be more of a choice then a "cleric domain -force this spell onto you choice". For one thing I noticed that the uber 20th level ability holds little power in some of the "Focus" areas. If you look at the Wind Focus the following are the only spells that have the air/lightning subtype that the class hands to you:

1) Gust of Wind
2) Control Winds
3) Whirlwind

From the Cleric list you could choose these spells as spell known to add to the list:

1) Wind Wall
2) Air Walk
3) Wind Walk
4) Summon Monster VI (Invisible Stalker)

And that's it. Maybe these following spells are typo's in the Pathfinder book because they have air or lightning effects but not the "subtype" so therefore are unaffected by the Final Revalation ability:

1) Control Weather
2) Storm of Vengence
3) Summon Monster I - V and VII - IX (elementals are listed as "Elemental" subtype not "Air or Lightning")

I personally suggest allowing the players access to all the following Air/Lightning spells (which are all the ones in the book" not already discussed:

1) Shocking Grasp
2) Whispering Wind
3) Call Lightning
4) Lightning Bolt
5) Call Lightning Storm
6) Chain Lightning
7) Summon Nature's Ally VIII (Cloud Giant only)
8) Elemental Swarm

I also would like to see the oracle take the role of a seer and suggest the following additions (I am not 100% about these):

1) Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
2) Arcane Eye
3) Detect Scrying
4) Scrying Greater

I have not looked as deep into the other Foci but I share similar complaints about them.

Perhaps taking VedounMar's suggestion -- The Favored Soul's(Complete Divine) spell progression seems more appropriate for a divine caster...-- would be a good idea (I am not 100% sure about this but right now it sounds good) as long as you get rid of the "bonus spell idea" and add my suggested spells above to the list they get access to... maybe make the player take at least 1 air/lightning spell of their choice at each level or whatever is appropriate for their oracles Focus.

Some of you were mentioning alternate spell lists from the core classes. I only agree with this if Paizo updates these spell lists when new books come out. Nothing sucks more then when everybodies spell lists grow but yours.

[Austin Nelson]

I think that the oracle should not have the cleric spell list. Honestly I think it should be closer to Druid than Cleric. They don't have the feel of cleric because clerics lack ranged damage dealing but make up for it with support and durability with armor. The spell limits and armor limits kind of turn this on its head. So lacking armor they cant be melee and lacking too many ranged options they are in a rather painful middle.

Another idea is to make the focus choice matter even more and for example give rock more armor ability and others more damage abilities so they have a more certain place in combat aka front or back of the line.

I would take the spell list and make it much more like druid's than cleric. Some healing some damage with a healthy dose of buffs and utility.

[Gibbenzgob]

I posted this on another thread but it is also relevant here.

I was thinking just now that I would prefer the cleric spell list that they have with the addition of all Air/Lightning spells for the Wind Focus... All Acid/Earth spells to the Stone Foci... All Fire spells to the Flame Focus... All Necromancy spells to the Bones Focus... All ??? (not sure what) to the Battle Focus... and All Cold/Water spells to the Wave Focus.

The reason I don't favor the druid spell list is then you could see the Flame Focus with control winds or whirlwind which should be only for the Wind Focus or some other such nonsense.

I also do not favor a unique spell list because I always find them annoying when new product comes out. Think of the Hexblades spell list from 3.5, it hardly ever got new spells when new product came out.

What about the Assassin... that was even worse in 3.5... maybe 1 book added 2 spells to their list.

Whatever they do, they need the spells to match the Focus. Nothing is more annoying then saying that you have the Wind Focus and can cast only 4-5 wind/lightning spells at level 20. The Druid/Sorceror/Wizard gets more than that by then ;)

[Hydro]

I think that short-hand custom spell list (kind of like what dragons get; "all sorcerer/wizard spells and all spells with the fire descriptor") is a cool idea. However, I also think it applies to clerics at least as much as to oracles. Anyone who thinks spell list should vary by faith probably already has houserules in place for that.