The way bone armor reads, the benefit is an armor bonus. This suggests it is not intended to stack with any existing armor--is this intentional?
I ask, because the initial value is +2 armor bonus--which is equivalent to leather armor (a +2 bonus)--which the Oracle can already wear. It seems to scale up to match light armor, as well--but given that it is a standard action to activate (essentially costing a round) and only lasts a minute per level...it just doesn't seem to match the cost of a revelation unless it stacks with existing armor--or perhaps is a free action to activate, although I'd still be a little leery of it.
Examples:
Oracle with dex 14:
@ Level 1:
AC with Bone Armor : 14 (+2 dex, +2 BA)
AC With Leather Armor: 14 (+2 dex, +2 Armor)
AC With Studded Leather: 15 (+2 dex, +3 Armor)
@ Level 7:
AC with Bone Armor: 16 (+2 dex, +4 BA)
AC with Studded Leather: 15 (+2 dex, +3 armor)
AC with +1 studded Leather: 16 (+2 dex, +3 armor, +1 enh armor)
[Wealth by level: 23,500 gp. Cost of +1: 1000g]
@Level 13
AC WIth Bone Armor: 16 (2 dex, +5 BA) and 5 DR/Blu.
AC With +3 Chain shirt: 19 (+2 dex, +4 armor, +3 enh armor)
[Wealth by level: 140,000 gp. Cost of +3: 9,000 gp]
Obviously these are just examples, and obviously DR is not AC--but special abilities/mats can be added for the ac, and the armor scales past level 13. On the other hand, if Armor of Bones stacks with existing AC, it becomes worth the standard action and revelation, providing a temporary bonus to AC/DR.
I'm sure I've mis-mathed...but it probably gets the gist across. Thoughts?
I asked this question before as well, but Jason has been very silent on the issue so far. As written, it can't stack with worn armor. It either needs to be typed as Sacred/Profane, or some other type, or the duration needs to be extended. As it is, it's a pretty useless boon.
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Despite its name and its bonus type, the armor of bones is not a regular armor :
- no dex limit
- no penalty to skills
- no chance for arcane spell failure
- no need for a specific proficiency
- can be worn by a druid
At 20th level with a Magic vestment spell put on it, this nets you a +15 armor bonus stacking with your dex bonus, while also granting DR 5/Bludgeoning.
Pretty nice for a class restricted to Light armor, I would say.
And the type of action it takes to be activated needs to be stated in the entry.
It's true--but the entry at the start of the section does say that unless stated otherwise, it is a standard action for each revelation--I presume that is the case here.
@A Man in Black--stole the words right out of my fingers...and couched them better than I would have, I suspect. ;-)
Currently, it is a standard action to activate the armor. I am heavily considering boosting this ability to some extent... there were a few discussions about this before the class even released.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If I might suggest, a great flavor would be, if you keep it at the current bonus level, making it a sacred/profane (as appropriate to the oracle's alignment) bonus to armor? With the special effect that bones literally grow out of his body and encase his existing armor (if any). I think, personally, that's a great fluff effect.
Alternately, if it's intended to replace armor completely, may I suggest making it 10 minutes per level per day in 1 minute increments? And then boosting the AC bonus (something like 1/2 Oracle level)? That would be +10 at 20th level, and no ability to put 'buffs' on it. So it wouldn't be overpowered, and would scale nicely by level. Even a rogue at 20th could reasonably have better than +10 AC (studded leather and buckler, easily more than +10).
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If I might suggest, a great flavor would be, if you keep it at the current bonus level, making it a sacred/profane (as appropriate to the oracle's alignment) bonus to armor? With the special effect that bones literally grow out of his body and encase his existing armor (if any). I think, personally, that's a great fluff effect.
Alternately, if it's intended to replace armor completely, may I suggest making it 10 minutes per level per day in 1 minute increments? And then boosting the AC bonus (something like 1/2 Oracle level)? That would be +10 at 20th level, and no ability to put 'buffs' on it. So it wouldn't be overpowered, and would scale nicely by level. Even a rogue at 20th could reasonably have better than +10 AC (studded leather and buckler, easily more than +10).
I think either one would be a good and balanced way to "fix" this. You get +1 from me! :)
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I'm not a big fan of the armor abilities. Arcane spell failure doesn't matter as you are a divine caster. Most likely dex is not one of your main stats, so that shouldn't put it over the max dex bonus of your armor. Ac penalties do accrue, but a magical chain shirt only has an armor check penalty of -1( masterwork ). It doesn't seem remotely worth it to get any of the armor spells instead of pretty much anything else. Heck, get an adamantine chain shirt and enchant it and you get 1 point of dr. Not sure how to make this a worthwhile choice. It is a decent idea, but it has to be better than the light armor equivalent if people are going to want to take it.
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Currently, it is a standard action to activate the armor. I am heavily considering boosting this ability to some extent... there were a few discussions about this before the class even released.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I would also suggest that Air Barrier be changed to a Deflection bonus to accurately represent a shell of air which by 13th level is actually deflecting ranged attacks.
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I would also suggest that Air Barrier be changed to a Deflection bonus to accurately represent a shell of air which by 13th level is actually deflecting ranged attacks.Currently, it is a standard action to activate the armor. I am heavily considering boosting this ability to some extent... there were a few discussions about this before the class even released.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Depending on whether it was wearable with light armor, the deflection bonus would stack with your ac bonus. Which would make it a billion times more useful. I would suggest changing the bonus' given by the armor and restructuring the feel somewhat to allow them to stack with light armor. Maybe cut the bonus to ac in half, but make it a sacred/deflection bonus or something.
So, if we assume mage armor would be its equivalent, we get something interesting, here.
Mage armor- 1st level spell slot, +4 armor bonus, 1hour/lvl
Bone armor- no spell slot, scaling armor bonus, shorter duration
It's true that the Oracle can wear armor, but perhaps she doesn't want to incur an armor penalty, or maybe she wants the 30ft movement speed...
The biggest benefit is probably the DR, but I could see it keying into a Divine Trickster. Probably could scale better, but it's nice that it isn't holding down a known spell slot. I see it as the equivalent to divine mage-armor; however, in that regard, it needs to be more competitive with, say, mithril chain shirt +1.
I do feel the need to point out that it doesn't necessarily need Oracle levels to scale, which is nice for the bard/rogue/sorc multiclassing department.
EDIT: Or does it need Oracle levels to scale? I'm not an official source of anything but stat block formatting, hehe.
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So, if we assume mage armor would be its equivalent, we get something interesting, here.
Mage armor- 1st level spell slot, +4 armor bonus, 1hour/lvl
Bone armor- no spell slot, scaling armor bonus, shorter durationIt's true that the Oracle can wear armor, but perhaps she doesn't want to incur an armor penalty, or maybe she wants the 30ft movement speed...
The biggest benefit is probably the DR, but I could see it keying into a Divine Trickster. Probably could scale better, but it's nice that it isn't holding down a known spell slot. I see it as the equivalent to divine mage-armor; however, in that regard, it needs to be more competitive with, say, mithril chain shirt +1.
I do feel the need to point out that it doesn't necessarily need Oracle levels to scale, which is nice for the bard/rogue/sorc multiclassing department.
EDIT: Or does it need Oracle levels to scale? I'm not an official source of anything but stat block formatting, hehe.
I think the generally accepted mechanic is that it does need oracle levels to scale. Otherwise you could be Oracle for a couple levels, grab some neat revelations and then be something else and still have your revelations scale up.
Light armor doesn't drop movement below 30 ft. Leather doesn't have an armor check penalty and provides the same bonus at first level. Masterwork Studded leather also doesn't have an armor check penalty and it is better until 7th. Master Work Chain shirt has an Armor Check penalty of 1 and it is just as good up until 11th level. Mithril chain shirt doesn't have an armor check penalty and allows up to a +6 dex bonus. Mithril Chain Shirt +5 has an ac bonus of +9, 1 less than the bone armor at level 19. And you can add all your other enchantments to it. The DR is it's best ability, I just don't know if it is worth spending a Revelation on it. If you are surprised you have no armor bonus and you are likely to spend your first action activating the armor( Jason ruled it was a standard action ). I'd rather have the always available chain shirt.
What if it were to take the place of an enhancement bonus. When looking at full plate the bone armor bonus is just useless. Theres no real reason for a caster Oracle to worry about speed, unless they're mele caster, in which they should be battle focus.
However, if you were to say that there was 'extra' armor in the form of a materializing bone cage, effectively something else that an opponent must break through, it would make sense to add the +2 (and scaling for level) to whatever additional armor you may or may not be wearing.
The drawback to this would be that you couldn't not put any other magical enhancement on your armor. Or, rather, treat it as a magical enhancement and you take the greater one. They don't stack. This means that if you want to buy +5 armor you're welcome to, but bone armor becomes a wasted revelation.
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What if it were to take the place of an enhancement bonus. When looking at full plate the bone armor bonus is just useless. Theres no real reason for a caster Oracle to worry about speed, unless they're mele caster, in which they should be battle focus.
However, if you were to say that there was 'extra' armor in the form of a materializing bone cage, effectively something else that an opponent must break through, it would make sense to add the +2 (and scaling for level) to whatever additional armor you may or may not be wearing.
The drawback to this would be that you couldn't not put any other magical enhancement on your armor. Or, rather, treat it as a magical enhancement and you take the greater one. They don't stack. This means that if you want to buy +5 armor you're welcome to, but bone armor becomes a wasted revelation.
I'd probably favor halving the bonus and making it a sacred or deflection bonus. That way you get some benefit out of taking the revelation. Honestly, if it doesn't stack with armor and enhancements to said armor, it's pretty much worthless.
If I might suggest, a great flavor would be, if you keep it at the current bonus level, making it a sacred/profane (as appropriate to the oracle's alignment) bonus to armor? With the special effect that bones literally grow out of his body and encase his existing armor (if any). I think, personally, that's a great fluff effect.
Alternately, if it's intended to replace armor completely, may I suggest making it 10 minutes per level per day in 1 minute increments? And then boosting the AC bonus (something like 1/2 Oracle level)? That would be +10 at 20th level, and no ability to put 'buffs' on it. So it wouldn't be overpowered, and would scale nicely by level. Even a rogue at 20th could reasonably have better than +10 AC (studded leather and buckler, easily more than +10).
I would place my money on one of these answers both solve the problem with out pushing the balance to far, the alternative I would have to say I like the most especially if it keeps the DR, then you have acceptable armor for a caster, DR to protect you when they get past it and you can pick up some magic items to back it up.
the first option boosts existing armor which can get a little unbalanced, you can enchant your armor, on top of everything and come out with a really high ac for a character of your level if we went with this the bonus from the bone armor might have to be re thought.
I agree. I do however like the visual image of the oracle (blech I hate that name) 'growing' the bones out of his own body, having them click and clack into place over his existing armor. :) It works for having the bones grow out of his body and cover him as well (There was a Naruto episode where a shinobi used his own bones as defense and weapons, very creepy). Either way, the bone mystery really does lend itself to a creepy neutral or evil guy.
If I might suggest, a great flavor would be, if you keep it at the current bonus level, making it a sacred/profane (as appropriate to the oracle's alignment) bonus to armor? With the special effect that bones literally grow out of his body and encase his existing armor (if any). I think, personally, that's a great fluff effect.
Alternately, if it's intended to replace armor completely, may I suggest making it 10 minutes per level per day in 1 minute increments? And then boosting the AC bonus (something like 1/2 Oracle level)? That would be +10 at 20th level, and no ability to put 'buffs' on it. So it wouldn't be overpowered, and would scale nicely by level. Even a rogue at 20th could reasonably have better than +10 AC (studded leather and buckler, easily more than +10).
I would place my money on one of these answers both solve the problem with out pushing the balance to far, the alternative I would have to say I like the most especially if it keeps the DR, then you have acceptable armor for a caster, DR to protect you when they get past it and you can pick up some magic items to back it up.
the first option boosts existing armor which can get a little unbalanced, you can enchant your armor, on top of everything and come out with a really high ac for a character of your level if we went with this the bonus from the bone armor might have to be re thought.
Mm, yeah. Clerics already do the armor buffing nonsense, so I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to make it enhancement or something, but lower it. I like the sacred/profane bonus, though.
As it is now, it isn't competitive for the armor bonus slot or the revelation slot, so even if it was just switched to a profane/sacred bonus, I could see that being okay balance-wise. It's not that different from spending the first round of combat casting shield of faith, right? I don't think I would want revelations turning into the equivalent of bonus spells known, though.
Currently, it is a standard action to activate the armor. I am heavily considering boosting this ability to some extent... there were a few discussions about this before the class even released.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Well, boosting its duration to hours would be a start. Or make it permanent even. Always remember that with a mundane armour, you can get +4 AC from armour pretty much from day one, and that one lasts all day, too.
The oracle can use those kinds of armours, so the armour revelations don't really give you something new, the way mage armour does. They do add style, but you should be punished that heavily for style (getting +2 for a couple of minutes over getting +4 all day, just because you look like Rattleshirt)