|
They could always take (or get) the Step Up feat, I guess. I mean, if that's not enough then it's not enough for the fighter, either...I still lobby for "Challenge" including a "move with enemy" option that makes it harder to disengage from a cavalier once he is on you. either you run early or you hope you can beat him. Also brings in images of a cavalier pressing an enemy back and back under a hail of blows while the enemy tries to figure out how to disengage.
-Weylin
But whatever the case, the fighter needs to be able to do this, too, as they are most subject to the perils of being 5' stepped and Bad Things Happening. So if the Step Up feat isn't good enough, it needs to be made better (and then they can both still take it). I worry in general about the fighter's melee role when other meleers are brought in with easier boosts to damage, and it's not like "focus on BBEG and put the hurt on him" isn't something that fighters should be doing, too. The cavalier gets extra damage by taking vulnerability against the minions, but being able to stop the opponent doing their own thing as well, as a class power, just seems like too much, to me (particularly if the opponent is a caster or something like that).
How does it not show what is happening, if I go to fight some guys and I am some gone ho warrior, I am going to pick out the biggest meanest punk there. Now then the biggest guy can't just back down if he wants the mooks to continue following him he has to be big and tough, if they are the mage well then how dare this sword swinging loon attack me we will have to teach him as a GM I have to be able to come up with reasons my characters stick around to fight the party all of the time.
so really why are they not running why are they standing there ground maybe they aren't but there opponent is usually mounted so running from him is going to take some speed, and the rest is for the GM to figure out. Now then onto the effects of his ability lets take a look at challenge on its own I get a boost to damage in exchange for a penalty that everyone gets to count me as flanked. aka +10% chance to hit. so for crunch it is good so all that is left is to see what that means in the language of fluff, so we are getting a buff which means we are psyching our selves up, or finding some way to boost ourselves in...
Sorry,
Jason has already stated that the ability works on non-sentient abilities (Challenge), and that it works regardless of the target's personality, alignment, sentience, whatever. So... the question becomes, how is the cavalier's challenging an ooze or a skeleton or a horse forcing them to fight him? Especially an animal once he hurts them? A bear might understand a challenge, but nothing will force him to stay once that cavalier quisanart let's lose on him and does half his hitpoints in one round. Like any animal, he's going to turn and run as hard as he can, because that's fight or flight instinct. Outsiders, ooze, skeletons, weird creatures can logically stay to death. Sentient creatures as well (although usually they run too if they realize they are outmatched). Animals run unless they have some overpowering reason to stay (like guarding young or being cornered). But nothing the cavalier is doing makes them want to 'save face' to stay. That's why I posted earlier that I think that bit of the challenge mechanic needs to be adjusted and turned into a morale bonus to the cavalier's allies rather than a penalty to the target.|
|
I dont see the Fighter as a dedicated melee class. To me Fighters are primarily generalists when it comes to combat with the potential to excel at one style over another.
If we are going to add more combat classes, I dont have a problem with class designed to focus more on one aspect of combat than the fighter.
If that aspect is "mullering the BBEG" then playing a fighter is going to be somewhat defunned, I think. For me, this contextual stuff -- the Paladin's Smite, the Cavalier's Challange -- should be raising them to about the level of the fighter, not blowing past him for the most exciting combats of the campaign. Why aren't the extra dice of damage enough? They last all combat, so the Cavalier can chase his opponent around the castle, etc.
Monks are already commonly seen to outshine the Fighter when it comes to unarmed combat. Rangers are commonly seen to outshine the Fighter when it comes to ranged combat. This continues with Paladins and Barbarians and their respective styles of combat. These classes lack the combat versatility and sheer number of feats that Fighters get.
Monks don't outshine the fighter when it comes to combat, to standing there and dealing out the damage. That, however, is precisely what the Cavalier's Challenge is about. Missile weapons don't beat fighters for damage, either. Paladins and Barbarians achieve, I would say, a comparable or slightly higher "standing there and fighting" performance when using their schtick. If Cavaliers could add some marking mechanic to their Challenge dice without even taking the Step Up feat, that'd be too good, I reckon. And if Step Up isn't enough, why should the fighter be satisfied with it? If it is good enough, take the feat.
So, I dont have a problem with the Cavalier outshining the Fighter in single combat. They wont match the Fighter for ability to switch from single combat to minion mauling and remain effective in both.
BBEG guy fights are fun for the meleers (well, if the casters don't single-shot the BBEG, which is harder now); I think that they should all be broadly comparable in that field. It might be that the fighter needs some more goodies, too, but I think that sticking to the opponent as a part of the Challenge as well as the extra dice isn't just too good compared to the fighter, it's too good compared to the other meleers.
|
Would not have a problem with dropping the Cavalier bonus from dice to a flat but increasing bonus similar to the Ranger's favored enemy and adding in the "pressing the fight" option.
-Weylin
I still think if you stick with the idea of a "challenge" that it should be a mind affecting compulsion rather than added damage. So only things that can be "mind affected" can be well affected. This is what I interpret is the desired outcome - a holding mechanic.
The ability to "hold" a critter in combat should be powerful enough. This gives the rest of the party the freedom to move about and handle other critters or just cast spells etc without fear of losing them. Make the Cavalier a team player rather than a stand alone damage dealing machine (as we already have them).
S.
I would like to officially thank TheJew for bringing actual play-test data to the table:
Personally, I like the Challenge mechanic as it stands, but support a name-change to Harry (to forestall exactly the sort of befuddlement at my game table as we've seen in this thread).
I'll even accept the Demanding Challenge*, for the reasons given - the foe has to visually keep track of the Incredibly Dangerous Cavalier, so his attention is divided (read: AC is penalized) until the cavalier is in melee range - but I wouldn't cry if it were replaced with something that didn't reach out and apply to entities beyond the cavalier.
__
*Incidentally, this will need a name change, too. Distracting Harry? Unsettling Harry? Those sound more like mobsters than abilities. Help, anyone?
I have no issue with a Cavalier "Challenging" a windmill.
Really, that's the only example that needs to be given. ;)
Would not have a problem with dropping the Cavalier bonus from dice to a flat but increasing bonus similar to the Ranger's favored enemy and adding in the "pressing the fight" option.
-Weylin
I still think if you stick with the idea of a "challenge" that it should be a mind affecting compulsion rather than added damage. So only things that can be "mind affected" can be well affected. This is what I interpret is the desired outcome - a holding mechanic.
The ability to "hold" a critter in combat should be powerful enough. This gives the rest of the party the freedom to move about and handle other critters or just cast spells etc without fear of losing them. Make the Cavalier a team player rather than a stand alone damage dealing machine (as we already have them).
S.
I have issues with a holding mechanic being a "mind effecting compulsion". Mainly because it externalizes what I see as an internal ability...that of the cavalier to so sorely press an opponent that "fighting withdraw" or "stand and deilver" are the options.
It also steps closer to the "magic for all" issues I have with many of the 4th edition class abilities. I also dont see it as limited to being with minds...I have no issue with a Cavalier "Challenging" a golem or giant skeleton.
I would possibly place this ability as higher in level than basic "Challenge".
-Weylin
Same here, but yes, "ilike" on the change from bonus dice. Unconditional bonus dice make it look like some sort of damage spike ability. Duels are slow affairs, right?
Mind-affecting seems, at first, reasonable, but gimpy. He should be able to heroically call out something like a zombie giant or a rampaging Gargantuan bug, but consider a slime for a moment...?
I am just not sure if that's heroic, but such things are the edge cases with adventurers. In general, maybe the important part is that the challenge appears heroic to us, rather than the enemy.
|
|
Same here, but yes, "ilike" on the change from bonus dice. Unconditional bonus dice make it look like some sort of damage spike ability. Duels are slow affairs, right?
Mind-affecting seems, at first, reasonable, but gimpy. He should be able to heroically call out something like a zombie giant or a rampaging Gargantuan bug, but consider a slime for a moment...?
I am just not sure if that's heroic, but such things are the edge cases with adventurers. In general, maybe the important part is that the challenge appears heroic to us, rather than the enemy.
I see the Cavalier and it's Challenge as the quintessential Monty Python King Arthur class feature. In the Scene where King arthur lops off the arm of the Black Knight and goes down to one knee to pray,only to have the Black Knight kick him in the britches! Heck both of them are Cavalierish! LOL
I for one want to keep the Cav a magic-less class as well.
--Naval Vrockade
Same here, but yes, "ilike" on the change from bonus dice. Unconditional bonus dice make it look like some sort of damage spike ability. Duels are slow affairs, right?
Mind-affecting seems, at first, reasonable, but gimpy. He should be able to heroically call out something like a zombie giant or a rampaging Gargantuan bug, but consider a slime for a moment...?
I am just not sure if that's heroic, but such things are the edge cases with adventurers. In general, maybe the important part is that the challenge appears heroic to us, rather than the enemy.
Tyler, to me "challenge" is not caling anyone or anything out.
It is the cavalier commiting entirely the defeating a single target and launching an assault that could be mistaken for a Barbarian's Rage only more focused. Defense is a secondary concern, survival is a secondary concern to th Cavalier in this state. As I said before, to me it comes down to a do or die mindset. So "Challenging" an ooze or slime is perfectly acceptable. It is all in the Cavalier's mindset to me.
the Cavalier becomes a single-minded combatant who is either leaving "with his shield or on it." Even if that is facing a large mobile ooze threatening who or what he cares about.
In my opinion the target does not matter and the ability is solely internal with an exterior effect.
-Weylin
Hmm... So, we're going to disagree. That's pretty much it. Right now the Cavalier is most flavorful with his oath/Order, and if he's a Dragon he's going to be in his rights to just be arrogant, get in your face, and beat you up. A Lion might be more knightly about it, but I wouldn't think to see an Order of the Shield cavalier get super reckless and getting tons of bonus damage.
So, I do see martial focus as more of a Fighter thing. A Fighter would do the gladiator no-nonsense "shut up while I beat you up" type challenge. A Cavalier could be like "My fellows, I call out that beast and if it doesn't face me you will know it for a coward." Then again, there are greedy cavaliers who Challenge a rogue because they don't think he's up for it.
I agree that it's not target-based, but it's pretty much what people think about it. And I don't really see murals being painted of an angel Challenging a slime to noble combat. Maybe if the slime was like rearing up like a giant wave... ROOAR and it swallows the Osirion army! OK YOU WIN
ANyway. I don't see the Xd6 being really in tune with the Cavalier, is all. It doesn't represent the range of duel-type fancy challenging I think should be happening. So the knight calls out a barbarian... the barbarian goes nuts, but then the knight does way more damage? nahh... don't like that, do I. Like, something rather thoughtful should be happening, something more noble, as it were. Granting flanking and doing 7d6 extra damage isn't really noble, is it? Seems rather savage and reckless, and some of the Orders support that, and some really don't. In fact, it encourages people to intrude on your duel-- which I think is counter-productive to the idea of a Challenge.
If you challenge someone, they should feel like a punk if they back down. That should be humiliating for anything with an int score, but it's more like... anything with an int score would back away from the Frenzied Cavalier and his 7d6 of vengeance and let his dudes mob him. Sure, sure goblins do that anyway, but an Orc should take that guy up on it, and there is absolutely no incentive for that until lvl 12.
|
|
I'm gonna have to second a flat bonus instead of extra dice, though haven't really looked at this yet in terms of gameplay. It puts Challenge more in line with other full BAB class' abilities like fighter weapon training, barbarian rage, ranger favored enemy, and even duelist precise strike (which used to be variable but no longer is).
On the other hand, there's something to be said for not being the same as all the other warrior classes...
|
|
Instead of trying to create an ability that allows the cavalier to force his focused target to deal with him, why not give the class abilities that let him make himself much harder to avoid. E.g., movement through threatened squares, batting feeble sword swings from mooks aside as he closes on his chosen foe with single minded determination or being able to charge through occupied squares (bonuses to overrun or being able to overrun multiple foes), heedlessly trampling those foolish enough not to dive for safety as he closes in upon his hated enemy or a big bonus .
Instead of forcing his opponent to stick with him, let him just be much harder to get away from. Maybe his dedication is some complete that at higher levels he just ignores some kinds of magical barriers (or gets a save to ride through them or what not) and movement impairing effects.
Also, if the goal is to have him challenge a target and then engage it, it could be facilitated by mechanics that reward closing with the target (while at the same time enhancing his ability to ignore others and pursue his chosen foe) (e.g., a scaling bonus to AC if he ends his turn closer than he started to his chosen foe)
I'll leave it to better rules-mechanical minds than mine to come up with what would be balanced, but hopefully you get the general idea.
But isn't the cavalier good enough already? He's made for BBEG killing, which is about the most fun combat-related thing in the game anyhow. I don't think that impeding the opponent's ability to avoid him is a Good Thing.
The thing with making it a flat bonus is, it will work better with all of the fancy charge abilities the cavalier gets.
One complaint about this class that I've heard no one really argue with is that it has too many unrelated mechanics.
|
|
One complaint about this class that I've heard no one really argue with is that it has too many unrelated mechanics.
Actually, someone in my group just said this to me earlier (technically yesterday at this point), and I have to agree. It does seem a little... all over the place. Challenge almost seems an attempt to rectify how spread around the class is by dolluping more butter on the bread of the class.
Going the opposite direction as Meepo, and to play devils advocate, I would actually suggest changing challenge to being a "commander ability". Perhaps the Cavalier should be able to cause his allies to gain statistical bonuses against an opponent that the Cavalier designates.
Perhaps also a "rivalry ability" might be in order, whenever the Cavalier is in melee combat supported by an ally, perhaps they should gain bonuses as they attempt to take down the enemy... with the Cavalier gaining a suitable bonus if he "downs the baddie first".
One complaint about this class that I've heard no one really argue with is that it has too many unrelated mechanics.Actually, someone in my group just said this to me earlier (technically yesterday at this point), and I have to agree. It does seem a little... all over the place. Challenge almost seems an attempt to rectify how spread around the class is by dolluping more butter on the bread of the class.
Going the opposite direction as Meepo, and to play devils advocate, I would actually suggest changing challenge to being a "commander ability". Perhaps the Cavalier should be able to cause his allies to gain statistical bonuses against an opponent that the Cavalier designates.
Perhaps also a "rivalry ability" might be in order, whenever the Cavalier is in melee combat supported by an ally, perhaps they should gain bonuses as they attempt to take down the enemy... with the Cavalier gaining a suitable bonus if he "downs the baddie first".
I believe it could partly be because it's a playtest-class and not a final class. Hopefully and (to me) almost surely, the final result will be more coherent.
That being said, I also think that it's okay for the Cavalier (as so many other classes) to have different, not necessarily related abilities as long as they build they same "picture" of the class.
I had this idea when reading through the thread again. There's so many excellent ideas for "what should challenge do" and I can't help thinking of challenge as the Cavalier's "main power". So here goes: why not have a set of powers, built up around the challenge idea.
Say, as I think I have mentioned elsewhere or earlier, similar to the Barbarians Rage-Powers.
*loosely conjures up some random suggestions, expecting it not to be worth much seeing as I have approx. 5 and max. 10 min to do this*
"Challenge" (or calll it whatever you will) Powers and Pool:
"Main Challenge Ability": Gives some charge/single combat bonus to possibly to-hit against that specific target (and then maybe minus to hit everythign else, as the Cavalier has "his" mind on killing the target and therefore cannot focus on other opponents). Can be used either as now 1/combat or maybe a number of rounds pr. day as with other pool class features.
*should conjure up interesting name, but wants to write ideas rather than names for them*: Something to do with penalizing the challenged opponent if said opponent does not respond to the challenge (would only work against creatures cabaple of choosing whether to fight or flee and who are either physically harrassable or socially harrassable. Costs a few extra points, maybe depending on how severe penalties you want.
*another great name*: Some bonus to damage, similar to what challenge does at the moment.
*insert loads of really interesting names here*: all those other great ideas. I really can't bring myself to list everything.
Just putting the idea out, wondering if it could do something to make the Cavalier seem both more coherent and make the challenge-ability more worth it, interesting and "unlike what all the others have".
Except that Jason has explicitly said that he doesn't want to go the Knight route with the Cavalier. He doesn't want the Cav to force his foes to do anything, because that gets into the realm of magic and the Cav is 100% nonmagic. I don't agree with that assertion (that it gets into the realm of magic), but when the lead designer asserts that something isn't going to happen, it's not really worth arguing.He said that with regards to the silly Knight's Challenge ability, and I agreed with him, and still do. Blocking and interception isn't magic, and isn't mind-affecting, and doesn't make your opponent.
I think the game already has the solution to this: the readied action. You simply ready an action to move to intercept if a certain opponent moves. You can really be a stick if you take the Stand Still feat, but otherwise, you should be able to at least generate an an AoO if the foe continues to move through your threatened area.
Let me address a few issues here...
2. I like a number of the names for the mechanic that have been presented here. I am not going to mention a favorite just yet, but feel free to continue the debate.
I suggest Valiant Stand.
With the adder that it could perform two functions. First, that it provides your proposed intent: a buff in "single combat" against a powerful foe. Second, that it provides a different buff when combating hordes. It would be the player's choice of which one to use, but both forms cannot be used at the same time, similar in that respect to how channel energy works (i.e. a good cleric can choose to either hurt undead or heal living creatures).
2. I like a number of the names for the mechanic that have been presented here. I am not going to mention a favorite just yet, but feel free to continue the debate.Just some quick suggestions, but how about 'Devotion', 'Dedicated Foe', 'Persistent Foe', 'Ardor/Ardent', 'Fervor/Fervent' or 'Zeal'?
I really like 'Fervor' or 'Zeal.'
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but it feels to me that the benefits of the Challenge ability should end if any of the Caviler's allies interfere by either providing aid (i.e targeting caviler with beneficial magic, aid another action, etc) or by directly attacking the target of the Challenge.
To give intensive for the Caviler's allies to not interfere they could receive a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made against non-Challenged enemies.
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but it feels to me that the benefits of the Challenge ability should end if any of the Cavalier's allies interfere by either providing aid (i.e targeting cavalier with beneficial magic, aid another action, etc) or by directly attacking the target of the Challenge.
To give incentive for the Caviler's allies to not interfere they could receive a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made against non-Challenged enemies.
Sorry. I had to correct the glaring typos in my last post.
...or, it grants a further Morale bonus as long as the Cavalier is in a challenge unaided to all allies within 25'?
That would work as well. Paints a nice picture of the single knightly warrior squaring off in single combat with the arch villain as his compatriots hold off the horde of minions.
The biggest flaw would be that the Cavalier would never "fight". One round to close, and go full defense to hold the baddie still until the rest of the party mop up the goons with thier fancy Morale bonus and then come to help the Cav finish the leader off.
I mean, I like the flavor too, but I instantly consider the flip-side also.
I personally don't see an issue with that. The single hero buying his comrades time by tying up the leader still has a nice image (that, and I can't see the Cav player sacrificing the extra challenge damage just to prolong his allies morale bonus for any great length of time). Additionally, whose to say that the BBEG would remain locked in single combat with the Cav, especially if he's unable to hit the Cav and the Cav isn't inflicting damage to them.
BBEG: "Hmmm, this fool's gone full-turtle. Think I'll go crush one of his squishy friends instead."
I like the condition modifier aspect but not in lieu of additional damage. I admit that the precision damage die is a bit wonky but don't have any suggestions on what to replace it with.
I think the condition modifier should come into play if the target refuses the Cav's challenge to represent the BBEG losing face. The mechanic could work along the lines of the Cav calling out a challenge to a target creature and if the creature refuses to fight the Cav one-on-one the creature automatically becomes shaken (no save) for a number of rounds equal to the half the Cav's class level. The shaken results might even affect the BBEG's minions.Seeing their leader back down would lower their morale after all.
If Challenge no longer deals additional damage, the Cavalier needs another class ability that does. Note that every Pathfinder physical combat class has an ability that increases damage, even the Bard.
What if instead of extra die damage the Cav receives several bonuses verse the target of the Challenge.
The Cavalier receives a +2 bonus on saving throws and a +2 bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. These bonus only apply to to the subject of the Challenge. At 8th level, and every six Cavalier levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 2 (+4 at 8th, +6 at 14th, and +8 at 20th).
The ability needs work but the general idea is there.
How about this: When the Cavalier uses his Challenge/Whatever you want to call it ability he gains the following: The Cavalier may perform (Dex score - 10, with a minimum of one) additional attacks of opportunity for X rounds per day/whatever duration and a scaling bonus to his BAB while he uses this ability, which stacks with Combat Reflexes. However, the Cavalier suffers a scaling penalty to AC. (This penalty scales a tad slower than the bonus mentioned earlier.) This would allow him to deal extra dmage to a single foe, deal with a few foes, or simply run interference to control the movement of a whole bunch of enemies.
There seems to be a lot of concern about the cavaliers challenge ability not affecting intelligent creatures. First of all that can easily be fixed by renaming the feat something like combat focus (I’m aware the name needs work) there by removing the need for the opponent to accept any challenge. Second of all I think that random precision damage is a little wrong and instead a cavalier should be focused on defeating this one foe, bringing all his strength and skill to bear opening his opponents guard (possibly making it easier to hit with subsequent attacks) driving him back, dealing more normal damage than usual and possibly even ignoring his wounds and the blows of his opponents as he advances with grim determination to destroy his foe.
possible bonuses for this could be to hit bonuses, damage boosts, free combat manoeuvres, special abilities to lower the opponents ac against your next attack, abilities to stagger or stun your opponents and possibly DR/ as your focus drives you on and lets you ignore pain.
Well there’s some suggestions can anyone expand?
That's what I sort of proposed with my idea above except of the Combat Maneuvers(good call on that).
Hows this sound?
The Cavalier receives a +2 bonus on saving throws, a +2 bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls, and +2 on Combat Maneuver checks. These bonuses only apply to the subject of the Challenge. At 8th level, and every six Cavalier levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 2 (+4 at 8th, +6 at 14th, and +8 at 20th). Should the subject refuse the challenge, the Cavalier can make an immediate Intimidate check to Demoralize the target. This Intimidate check receives a bonus equal to half the Cav's class level.
As for the ability not working on intelligent creatures. I feel the ability should only be used on intelligent creatures. It just seems stupid for the Cav character to use this ability on something like a bear or a giant turtle.