Exactly when do you get your Rake attacks? When you damage your opponent in a grapple? For free whenever you grapple someone? Only on the turn that you grab them?
What about the giant mantis' mandibles ability? Same answer?
I'm not 100% sure about this, but how I see it, when you grab you do the rake damage automatically on top of any other damage you might do.
So on the 1st round you grab the opponent, on the second you test again if your grab holds, and then you can choose to do damage. The damage is the maximum damage from a natural weapon + rake in this case
So if you move the grapple, you rake... if you deal damage or pin, you rake... etc? That would make the rake a free action, but it doesn't seem worded as such.
Anyone know the official answer to this? Has the paizo staff ever addressed this item on the forums?
As I understand it...
Creature establishes a grapple.
The next round, it maintains the grapple and chooses the option to do damage. It then gets to do its bite damage AND the rake damage. As long as it can maintain the grapple, it can continue to choose to do damage and thus the bite + rake.
In other words, don't let a lion knock you down and grapple you.
That is sort of what I thought too, except that rakes have an attack bonus, so dealing damage in a grapple can't simply 'deal rake damage' in the same way. There's got to be an attack bonus involved somewhere, but there isn't an attack roll involved in the 'deal damage in a grapple' option.
Is there an 'ask paizo' or something? A way to get offical answers (or at least answers-from-the-editors) to stuff like this?
Rake attacks are just that--attacks. However, they are bonus attacks granted by the success of a grapple (or improved grab).
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only
against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
That is sort of what I thought too, except that rakes have an attack bonus, so dealing damage in a grapple can't simply 'deal rake damage' in the same way. There's got to be an attack bonus involved somewhere, but there isn't an attack roll involved in the 'deal damage in a grapple' option.
Is there an 'ask paizo' or something? A way to get offical answers (or at least answers-from-the-editors) to stuff like this?
It looks to me that you deal the grapple damage after establishing the said grapple and then the mantis would need to roll to hit to do his mandible damage, this would be an extra attack.
Usually the Paizo staff is very good at monitoring these forums and answering questions that you might have. Sometimes they won't answer, but that is usually because someone else has already answered the question for them in the threads.
In this case I think the above poster answered the question correctly and I believe, unless I am missing something, that I answered your question that you asked above. I did refer to the Bestiary for this just to assure you that I am not answering your question off the top of my head.
Well, the 'in addition to the options available to all grapplers' line suggests that it is it's own action, and takes the place of other options.
The mantis still looks like it only gets to use the mandibles on a round in which it grabs, though. Does that sound right?
Well, the 'in addition to the options available to all grapplers' line suggests that it is it's own action, and takes the place of other options.
The mantis still looks like it only gets to use the mandibles on a round in which it grabs, though. Does that sound right?
That is the way I interpret it yes.
Cool. Thanks, all.
So, if I understand it well, than in case of my tiger charging an opponent using Pounce (Ex), my tiger has
following attack routine :
1 bite - as part of a full attack action (f.e. roll - hit)
1st claw - as part of a full attack action (f.e. roll - hit)
2nd claw - as part of a full attack action (f.e. roll - fail)
1st rake - as part of a full attack action (f.e. roll - hit
2nd rake - as part of a full attack action (f.e. roll - fail)
So then, If a tiger succesfully hits with f.e. bite and 1st claw it initiates Grab (Ex) as a free action for both succesfull hits?
Which attempt goes first?
Suppose it doesnt matter,
So then, If a tiger chooses to Grab check first with f.e. bite and he is succesfull, than
both attacker and defender gets grappled condition,
It doesnt stop full attack, yes? ...
So, the second Grab check with 1st claw is unnecessary, when a tiger hits with a bite,
So If tiger doesnt succesfully made Grab check with a bite, than it still can make Grab check with the 1st claw, yes?
So what If my tiger rolled first Grab check for the 1st claw, which was succesfull,
can still my tiger roll for Grab check with his bite?
Why do I ask, because for tiger is better to Grab and Hold with bite than claw, it can do more damage in the 2nd rd ... or
it doesnt matter because he can make grapple damage option to do damage with natural attack ... lets say his bite ...
We follow,
My tiger and opponent have grappled condition
Grappled opponent as a secondary grappler decides to make full attack with a dagger he is holding
ok
2nd round
My little tiger as a primary grappler uses his standard action to maintain grapple, and it succeeds ! (combat maneuver check - roll - hit)
It means that my tiger deals automatic damage with bite, the attack with which he succesfully made Grab in the first round,
and as a part of a standard action it chooses .... ehm ... lets say ... damage option .. and it deals damage with 1st claw or 2nd claw,
doesnt matter, they are the same
and ...
he has the Rake (Ex) ability as well ..
so
Do I have to roll rake attacks as a separate attack rolls, because rake attacks are special option in grapple for tigers
(in addition to those mentioned in Core rulebook under Grapple?)
or
The rake attacks are part of grapple damage option as it says :
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a NATURAL ATTACK,
or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon.
... Rake attacks are natural attacks
I am confused, and we need official Paizo answer, there are hundreds of threads discussing this matter,
and every is answered in different style ...
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There's no penalty to hit the person your are grappling. The dex penalty and the penalty to hit are for people who attack from outside the grapple.
This is not right
Under normal circumstances, both people get the grappled condition (the person who started the grapple and the target
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.
The people outside the grapple receive no penalty at all to hit someone being grappled.
There's no penalty to hit the person your are grappling. The dex penalty and the penalty to hit are for people who attack from outside the grapple.This is not right
Under normal circumstances, both people get the grappled condition (the person who started the grapple and the target
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.
Claudekennilol is correct.
This a common misunderstanding. Because both of the grappled creatures have the penalties, the -4 to Dex (-2 AC) and -2 to attack rolls usually cancel each other out. Most people remember that as "there are no penalties" instead of "your penalty for attacking while grappled are offset by the penalty the target gets for being grappled".
It's important to maintain the distinction when you run into creatures that can grapple with getting the grappled condition or taking any of the penalties for grappling.
Exactly when do you get your Rake attacks? When you damage your opponent in a grapple? For free whenever you grapple someone? Only on the turn that you grab them?
What about the giant mantis' mandibles ability? Same answer?
Assuming that we are talking about the regular critter power of Rake you get the bonus attacks if you meet either of 2 conditions.
1) You start the round with the grappled condition. It does not matter who initiated or controls the grapple.
2) You have the Pounce ability and charge.
You do not get Rake attacks just for starting a grapple.
The mantis's Mandible attack uses a different set of criteria to gain the bonus attack.
So then, If a tiger succesfully hits with f.e. bite and 1st claw it initiates Grab (Ex) as a free action for both succesfull hits?
Yes
Which attempt goes first?
Doesn't matter, select whichever order you prefer although I would personally recommend the order you attacked in for simplicity.
It doesnt stop full attack, yes? ...
It does not stop the full attack. There is nothing in the grapple rules preventing you from performing a full attack.
The only reason you cannot (usually) perform a full attack in subsequent rounds is the check to maintain a grapple requires a standard action (usually).So If tiger doesnt succesfully made Grab check with a bite, than it still can make Grab check with the 1st claw, yes?
Yes
So what If my tiger rolled first Grab check for the 1st claw, which was succesfull,
can still my tiger roll for Grab check with his bite?
Once you have succeeded you are grappling with that appendage, you do not grapple with multiple appendages so any other grapple check is pointless. I suggest making your grapple checks in the order most advantageous to you (ie: if Bite does more damage than Claw use Bite first).
My little tiger as a primary grappler uses his standard action to maintain grapple, and it succeeds ! (combat maneuver check - roll - hit)
It means that my tiger deals automatic damage with bite, the attack with which he succesfully made Grab in the first round,
and as a part of a standard action it chooses .... ehm ... lets say ... damage option .. and it deals damage with 1st claw or 2nd claw,
doesnt matter, they are the same
No, while there is some debate about this the intent of the rules is pretty clear.
You do not get to select the damage option AND deal automatic damage with the bite. They are the same thing. What Grab is doing is defaulting to the damage option.Do I have to roll rake attacks as a separate attack rolls, because rake attacks are special option in grapple for tigers
(in addition to those mentioned in Core rulebook under Grapple?)
Yes, they are separate attack rolls that you make when you maintain the grapple.
Note: in the future making your questions a bit more concise and numbering them would help.
note: the monster rules version of rake state that your tiger " can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn". This seems to make a mockery of the parenthetical part of "Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
Those are separate rules for different scenarios.
One is how Rake usually works: In order to rake, you have to start the round in a grapple. If you start a round grappled, you can make two additional claw attacks that round, because you are grappling already.
The other is how Pounce works in conjunction with Rake: You can utilize your rake attacks during a charge if you have the Pounce ability, even though you didn't start the round grappling your target (and you wouldn't be able to charge if you were, anyway).
Pounce (and its exception to how Rake usually works) only applies during a charge. In any other situation, the normal Rake rules apply.
Ah, ok. I misunderstood what you were getting at. Apologies.