This is some random brainstorming before I try this stuff out at the table.
No knowledge (nobility) for a Cavalier? You mention heraldry and courtly intrigue several times in their fluff. A case could also be made for the mundane knowledge skills, like history or local.
Oath of Chastity need rewording, or at least some clarification of what constitutes "physical contact" (perhaps "intimate contact"), or you're going to have a lot of making-the-paladin-fall shenanigans. A female knight should be able to shake hands with the king (or slay male orcs with a sword!)
Oath of Greed, as written, allows the knight to trade with a party member every day and get the bonus. Maybe specify that it's something looted or obtained in an unequal trade?
Should Oath of Justice specify criminals or something? Otherwise a cavalier who wants this bonus can just say "I swear an Oath to bring that guy to justice!" whenever they're in a fight.
Do we have rules for trailing a banner somewhere? It might be worth a paragraph to talk about what's involved in handling a banner, like on a lance, spear, bannerpole, etc.
And Oath of Loyalty seems really weak.. +1 bonus only to Enchantment (compulsion)?
Maybe it should be something like an additional +1 to attack or AC that you can grant with the Aid Another action for the next 24 hours.
Does Expert Trainer apply to other peoples' mounts? I'm just wondering if it's meant to apply to his animal companion or just riding animals in general. It's kind of vague.
Why is Supreme Charge's stun a Will save? Seems to be a physical-impact thing or a dodging-the-worst-of-it thing. Stunning Fist is fort.
Demanding Challenge comes in really late. There seems to be chain potential here; maybe a scaling penalty, or an Uncanny-Dodge-style penalty where the challenged foe is -1 to AC, then flanked, then flat-footed? I dunno, something along those lines, possibly as an order's schtick
Demanding Challenge should probably be mind-affecting, if not language-dependent.
The capstone of the class is a tad underwhelming, and seems to be a salad of random melee abilities. Shouldn't the capstone have to do with oaths, or inspiration, or challenges? Or be order-specific? Actually, isn't the capstone really weak, since he can't use it on flying foes pretty much ever?
Knights have zero class abilities applicable to an enemy they cannot reach, and no options to take a flying mount.
The best combat strategy for a non-mounted cavalier is dual-wielding, since he can't afford the feats to go weapon-and-shield-bash. Is this intentional?
What does foraging for food and water have to do with cockatrices? Why does a knight of the cockatrice forage better than a ranger?
Act as One is confusingly worded. Under what circumstances does "This movement and attack can be made as a charge if the movement qualifies" apply?
The Order of the Dragon has some anti-synergistic abilities, is this intended? The challenge and Steal Glory do not work well together.
Moment of Triumph is kind of lame. It's 3e paladin smite only you can smite skill tasks too. Woo.
Order of the Lion gets the short stick for skills. K (nobility) and K (local) are not very useful skills, and by fluff nearly all the cavaliers should get them. Maybe just not give them any extra skills, and give them Diplomacy boosts or something?
Lion's Call is pretty weak. When he's likely to be the hardest hitter in melee of the party, wasting his turn to give everyone else a +1 to hit is not that super. It's also somewhat redundant to For The King, in both theme and mechanics.
Shield of the Liege is badly punished by requiring the cavalier to be able to reach the attacker. A level 15 Order of the Lion cavalier can't intercept an arrow with his body?
Stem the Tide is how Stand Still should work.
Protect the Meek doesn't actually protect anyone unless his one attack kills the foe. Maybe a different name?
Ride doesn't have an armor check penalty, so the first line of Mounted Mastery does nothing.
Oracle time! Here's the base oracle stuff and Battle.
Lame really sucks for dwarves, not so much for goblins and kobalds. It should probably be based on racial base move, not size.
Why does Wasting give a -4 penalty to Use Magic Device? Why does being ugly make it harder to play a lute or tell a lie or feint or create a distraction to hide or bind a demon? I'd make it a -4 to Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and Wild Empathy. Right now, you can't play a nosferatu concept with Wasting and Bones because Wasting screws up a lot of your sneaky stuff for no logical reason.
Maybe rephrase this so it doesn't imply that you are immune to Staggered in general? "You are not disabled if you are reduced to exactly 0 hit points and you do not gain the staggered condition."
The ability to ignore the prereq for Diehard belongs in the level 7 sentence, not after the level 11 sentence. As written, it implies you don't get the feat until level 11 unless you have the prereqs.
Combat Healer should specify what level spell slots you need to expend. I assume it's two of the appropriate level, but I don't know if it could be higher-level or even lower-level.
Iron Skin should specify that you don't need the diamond dust.
If Battlefield Clarity allows a second save against a spell/effect with multiple effects, do you save against all of it? For example, the Dictum chain.
Battlefield Clarity needs to say that it is a free action you can take outside of your own turn. Remember, "Unless otherwise noted, activating the power of a revelation is a standard action."
Wall of Fire is a weird one for Battle. I don't see how it fits the theme.
Onto more foci. Or whatever they'll be called. Bone this time.
Bleeding Wounds should probably specify Death's Touch and not channel energy, as cleric/oracle is an unlikely multiclass and it generates confusion about using Undead Servitude to deal damage (when it can't).
Near Death is very weak. Most of the secrets are about as good as two feats over their lifetime; this one is less good than Iron Will and Great Fortitude combined, and those are pretty weak feats.
Does Raise the Dead need raw material? What sort of skeleton or zombie does it raise?
Resist Life needs something more than channel resistance. Or at least something different. Right now, the upgrades are really boring. Fortifications, save boosts to things undead are immune to, and/or counting as undead for undead-beneficial spells (e.g. Desecrate) are some ideas.
Also, clearer distinctions need to be made on what you're vulnerable to with Resist Life: Which of these spells work on you and why? Disrupting Weapon/Disrupting magical weapons, Disrupt Undead, Control Undead, and Detect Undead.
Spirit Walk doesn't have a clear limit. Right now, you can turn yourself incorporeal, stay like that for [level] rounds, and do it again. This needs to specify that it's [level] rounds per day.
Flame time.
What kind of action is needed to douse someone on fire from Burning Magic?
Burning Magic should work with Fire Breath and Firestorm.
Touch of Flame should make a flame in your hand, just so you can use it for utility stuff as well as burning people. It's kind of lame that Flame oracles don't get a making-light schtick other than the same spells everyone gets.
Other possible places for a generating-light ability would be Gaze of Flames (your eyes radiate light, nice imagery) or Heat Aura.
Touch of Flame should be all-day at some point, just because by that point it's just a lighter. (I'd say 1st, but then every rogue would dip for it.) 7th would be a good point.
The Final Revelation is really lame. Give them Empower Spell at least; you're casting damaging spells of the weakest element in the game.
Would it be possible to work some sort of light/radiance theme into Flame? Just doing fire damage is not only weak, but also well-trodden ground. Take Flame Strike as inspiration; a flame oracle is a conduit of divine flame, not just the magical equivalent of a guy out behind the abandoned paper mill with a can of gas, a lighter, and a creepy laugh.
I want to pick on Wasting for a moment.
The aged crone, barely more than skin and bones, is bad at obfuscating her past by changing the subject, or tricking the PCs into doing her work for her with reverse psychology or half-truths. (-4 to Bluff to lie)
The horribly-scarred fire dancer isn't very good at dancing. (-4 to Perform (dance))
The half-dead shaman of the undead-worshipping morlocks has a lot of trouble escaping observation, something his fellows have no trouble with. (-4 to Bluff to create a distraction to hide)
The aspirant who gave up his health for the magic...isn't actually very good at using non-clerical magic devices. (-4 to Use Magic Device)
Wasting just needs to be something else. -4 to charisma checks is not working out, especially since the focus with the closest thematic link, Bone, gives two charisma-based skills as class skills. A penalty to fort saves, a penalty to specific cha skills, and/or a flat con penalty would be a better way to handle it.
Hmmm... I may not agree with everything, but you have some really good points there about both classes -- especially about wording and certain abilities not suiting the "fluff" of specific oaths/foci.
'Wings of Fire'(7th) and 'Wings of Air'(7th) should be Standard actions like the Sorcerer Bloodline Wings given by Celestial(9th), Draconic(15th) and Infernal(15th). Seems a bit unfair to allow wings 2-8 levels earlier as a Swift Action.
(BTW Celestial doesn't have an action-type listed, we have been assuming it's Standard Action due to it being a supernatural ability?? And basing it off of Draconic & Infernal. If someone knows of any Errata on this, I'd appreciate it.)
The only exception to this that I can see would be 'Bloodline Elemental Air'(15th) because it specifically states you gain a fly speed... no sprouting/growing of wings involved.
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Off Topic EDIT: A Man In Black wrote: Wasting > The aged crone Reminds me of a Goodman Games 0-level module we played awhile back. The writer/narrator apparently liked his adjectives because within a paragraph of text I swear our quest contact started to wither... Village Elder, Old Crone, Toothless Hag... I busted out laughing and had to explain to everyone that I felt the need to put a rag over my face, as she was "wasting away" of leprosy or something right in front of us.
Okay, back to foci. Stone now.
Shield is a bit mystifying, and Acid Arrow is a headscratcher. Shatter seems more thematic than Acid Arrow. Alternately, there's Soften Earth and Stone but that spell is really lame. Maybe Magic Stone and Shatter?
Acid Skin does not imply that you resist acid. I like "Insolubility" but this needs a new name.
Clobbering Strike needs to specify that they don't get to trip you back. Also, the trip is unlikely to be very strong; perhaps a CMB boost of some sort might be appropriate? (Using caster level as BAB, cha instead of str/dex, etc.)
Clobbering Strike and Magic Stone have natural synergy; all the more reason to make Magic Stone one of the spells.
Clobbering Strike should work with Mighty Pebble and Rock Throwing.
Is throwing the pebble part of the standard action of Mighty Pebble?
Steelbreaker Skin is a game-halter. This is going to be so slow and annoying to play with, and requires tracking the damage on weapons of every NPC who attacks the oracle with this ability up. Using the sunder mechanics for this isn't a good idea.
Likewise with the Final Revelation; just go ahead and give them Empowered. It's not overpowered and seriously there are like three damaging acid spells and oracles don't get most of them.
I really think the acid is a bad fit here. There are two acid-themed abilities and one acid spell, none of which seem to have anything to do with stone or earth or rocks or anything. Acid as an element is pretty sorc/wiz-specific.
I wrote my concerns regarding the Challenge ability on the main thread here, but I think it's worth mentioning here too (since this is a more focused thread):
Quandary wrote: Challenge:
I think a good way to balance this ability is by making it only work against foes DIRECTLY RELEVANT to the Cavalier's Order and/or Oaths. I also think using a per/day mechanic (like Smite) rather than per/encounter (what!? isn't this 3.75?) makes the ability easier to balance.
I have to competely agree with this. As I wrote on the Dreamscarred press Forum regarding some features of the Alpha Soulknife,
"The other thing is regarding the ‘per encounter’ abilities (...) – please note, not the abilities themselves (they are very cool), but rather their ‘recharge’ method. In 4th Edition, a ‘per encounter’ ability could work. But in Pathfinder, there are no ‘Short Rests’, so how can a GM allow a character to refresh his abilities between encounters? How much time requires the ability to ‘cool down’ after the end of the encounter? What could possibly constitute a single ‘encounter’, in the first place?
My questions could seem really easy to answer, but let’s consider an assault to an inner yard of a castle, surrounded by barracks. The Soulknife uses one of his ‘per encounter’ abilities to dispatch one of the guards; however, the alarm is raised nonetheless, and what previously could have been a series of 4 encounters (each with an ECL of 4) becomes a massive combat composed of a single encounter with an ECL of 8. Now, since the encounter is still the same, the consumed ‘per encounter’ ability cannot be recharged – and this becomes a huge balancing problem.
Basically, this leads to a ‘Reverse Nova’ problem ,where a single encounter per day cripples the abilities of the Soulknife, while an endless wave of little encounters gives an endless number of the same ability – provided a ‘cooldown time’ (again, still not specified) is possible between each encounter.
So, please, give them these abilities a number of times per day, or per hour, or whatever – but not per encounter. Without the 4th Edition ‘Short Rest’ mechanics, it simply could not work."
Now, you can easily susbtitute 'Soulknife' in the above example with 'Cavalier', and all the mentioning to 'per encounter abilities' with 'Challenge', and the result would be the same.
Dreamscarred Press went for the solution of changing the 'per encounter' abilities with a recharge method involving the expenditure of Psionic Focus; obviously, such method is not feasable for the Cavalier (no Psionic Focus is present at all), but either a Per Day ability (as Quandary proposed above) or a 'recharging method' (only after his target is target is dead or unconscious) requiring a full-round action to refocus himself - maybe with a 'caster level check' using the Cavalier level against a flat DC (20 or more) - would be way better (IMHO).
Now, Waves.
Chill Metal is another headscratcher (what does it have to do with water?), compounded by the fact that it's a spell nobody actually ever wants to cast. Plus, an ocean-themed focus and you don't can't cast Fog Cloud at all? Shameful. How about Bless Water/Curse Water at 3rd and Fog Cloud at 5th?
What is "shapechange (water only)" supposed to mean? Aquatic creatures only, water elementals only, what?
With Blizzard, why does reducing damage from an ongoing storm a Reflex save? How do you dodge ambient cold? This one sounds like a fort to me.
Also, you should probably mention how long the ground remains icy, and what the game effect of this is.
Fluid Nature has a non-standard crit defense for no good reason. Why not just make this fortification?
Oracles with Fluid Travel should get all-day swimming and water breathing at some point. It's not that OP.
Punitive Transformation is kind of lame for a class that can just cast Baleful Polymorph.
Again with the Final Revelation thing. Empowered cold spells are not that OP at level 20.
Guys, maybe this feedback should be reposted on the Errata/Mistakes thread? I'm sure Jason is keeping an eye on all threads, but it would make everyone's work a bit easier if all the questions, answers, clarifications and errata is on the same thread. :)
I just noticed, all of the armor revelations suck until you get the DR or other special ability. A standard action to cast Mage Armor with a short duration? That's terrible, especially for a class that can just wear a chain shirt. Longer duration (or permanent!) on the armor bonus with slightly more-aggressive scaling would work, or alternately you could make the armor bonus a non-standard type.
Anyhoo, it's wind time.
Shield is another headscratcher. Entropic Shield, Obscuring Mist, Jump, or Feather Fall might fit here instead.
Don't give Overland Flight; you've got a revelation that gives you personal flight. Don't make that revelation obsolete by replacing it with a spell everyone gets. Try Chain Lightning or Wind Walk here. Or Call Lightning Storm if you want a really weak spell.
Don't be stingy, go ahead and give Fly instead of Levitate. Getting a second-level spell at level 7 is kind of a bummer.
Vortex Spells is a traaaaaaaap. There are vanishingly few spells that a Wind oracle can get that give an attack roll and can crit, and few of them fit into the particular theme. This revelation is very weak and can probably be disposed of.
Wings of Air should give always-on flight at some point. Probably somewhere between level 11 (when wizards get always-on flight) and 15 (when various bloodlines and such get always-on flight).
Same old same old with the revelation. It's not like there are a lot of lightning spells an oracle can use.
Asgetrion wrote: Guys, maybe this feedback should be reposted on the Errata/Mistakes thread? I'm sure Jason is keeping an eye on all threads, but it would make everyone's work a bit easier if all the questions, answers, clarifications and errata is on the same thread. :) Most of it isn't errata; they're largely questions or disagreements or observations about design decisions or particular implementations. I'll filter out the actual errata and post it there.
Quote: If Battlefield Clarity allows a second save against a spell/effect with multiple effects, do you save against all of it? For example, the Dictum chain. Meant Order's Wrath here, not Dictum.
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A Man In Black wrote: Ride doesn't have an armor check penalty, so the first line of Mounted Mastery does nothing. Actually in the Pathfinder RPG it does. All Strength- or Dexterity-based skills do.
Zaister wrote: Actually in the Pathfinder RPG it does. All Strength- or Dexterity-based skills do. That's dumb for reasons not worth getting into in this thread, and all of the str and dex skills except Ride have "ARMOR CHECK PENALTY" prominently placed in their headers. *sigh*
I'm simply not that impressed with the skill bonuses given to the cavalier and his challenge ability. I'm sorry those bonuses simply do NOT make up for the fact he is now flanked by everyone else, regardless of his uncanny dodge status. That's begging for a rogue boning.
A penalty to hit creatures than his target, not getting AoO's against creatures other than his target, maybe NO penalty what so ever would all work, but this "I'm going to flank myself so I can hit you better" is simply not good.
Most of the cavalier's "control" abilities are lacking too, and his buffs... well I would rather play a bard and give good buffs.
A Man In Black wrote: all of the str and dex skills except Ride have "ARMOR CHECK PENALTY" prominently placed in their headers. *sigh* The Ride Skill in Pathfinder Reference Document clearly states an armor check penalty (linkified)
How often do the PCs fight rogues? Far from the majority, and their only really a feature in thieves guild focused urban adventures. Meanwhile a character with full BAB, heavy armor, likely a great strength and other things gets more damage?
If anything challenge is too good! It stacks with power attack!
vagrant-poet wrote: How often do the PCs fight rogues? Far from the majority, and their only really a feature in thieves guild focused urban adventures. Meanwhile a character with full BAB, heavy armor, likely a great strength and other things gets more damage?
If anything challenge is too good! It stacks with power attack!
So does sneak attack and it has more dice. Half Orc with a falchion power attacking while sneak attacking too?
Besides there is a difference between "Oh and beware since you're a bit easier to hit," (i.e. Barbarian in rage) and "Oh by the way don't use this class feature at all if class 'x' is near by cause you'll simply die."
The first works and gives a trade off, the second directly sets up a "rock paper scissors" situation that pathfinder has been trying to avoid.
My Thoughts
Cavalier - Overall, it bothers me. The 'oaths' ruin it for me, and the cavalier lass also seems slightly underpowered as a whole.
The charging and mounted abilities are cool, the order abilities are cool, and challenge is very cool. The oath mechanics are awful. First of all, the idea that you'll have cavaliers swearing random oaths to get the bonuses they'll need within the next 24 hours is weird. I'm all for roleplaying-friendly mechanics, but the oaths seem forced and random. Second of all, they are completely unrelated to alignment, so nothing stops or even discourages a good-aligned cavalier from completing an order of greed because he'll need the bonuses related to completing the oath tomorrow.
Oath of greed in particular is just kinda dumb, honestly. Oath of chastity is worded terribly. Oath of justice would see use every combat. Why wouldn't you use it every fight? Oath of loyalty isn't even an oath. What if your friends call for help and you respond by healing them, or slaying the monster bearing down on them? And don't you already use aid another for your party members when they ask you for it?
Oath of justice, at least, is a relevant oath with a clear and logical use. The rest of the oaths need to be more relevant
The order abilities are very nice, but I think the orders should have more generic names, such as "Mercenary Order", "Knightly Order", and so on. This makes them much more easily flavorable.
I know it's been mentioned, but the cavalier needs Knowledge (nobility and royalty), and maybe (history) or (religion).
Oracle - Oracle is beautiful. Don't change a thing. Perfect, awesome class. The curses are awesome; flavorful and rewarding, and just limiting enough to pose a unique challenge (I especially love the clouded eyes, deaf, and withered oaths). If you mess with anything, mess with adding more foci or curses!
Love this class. Love it.
I actually think the challenge mechanic is well balanced, and I hope it doesn't change much. Just think a (most likely) heavily armored knightly-man dueling it out with his foe, concentrating all his efforts on that baddie, and leaving his back exposed. A snaky little halfling with a dagger in his hand comes from behind, and puts the blade through a chink in his armor.
With everything else the Cavalier gets (plus bonuses to his challenge from his order), I think it is danger of being overpowered if it were changed much. He doesn't have the restrictions of the paladin, and doesn't have to set it up like the rogue (for sneak attack), he also doesn't get the significant drawbacks the barbarian gets from raging (fatigue,-AC), he can just do it round after round.
And if he were in a den of thieves for some reason (most common thieves would still be NPCs IMO) I would hope he would use his power wisely and not leave himself open to all those backstabbers. What about his party? wouldn't they help keep the thieves at bay? Anyhow, hopefully the GM isn't throwing waves of Rogues at a party ill-suited to deal with them, or maybe the Cavalier is outshining the party in combat and its time to send in the rogue-squad to level things!
Since this is "pre-playtesting", I sat down to make a cavalier and oracle for playtesting, and my immediate compulsion was to create a "knightly defender" type.
Order of the Shield seemed natural... but on further inspection it doesn't really seem to do what the flavor text describes. Protect the Meek is somewhat in line, but you dont get it until level 15 and it feels rather bland.
Resolute being like a poor man's DR doesn't vibe well with me. I'd suggest something more like:
Interpose (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever an adjacent ally takes damage, a cavalier may choose to receive all of one attack's damage.
Other options might be a higher level ability that you do prior to the attack, and use the cavalier's AC instead of his ally's. Also, maybe putting some cap on the amount he can do it (1/round, 1/encounter, whatever)
Or, simply, hoping there is a feat that could roughly mimic this in the APG :)
The curses for Oracle need some balance, since nothing they have is gamebreaking.
---Give them all good saves
---Give them the option of choosing Channel Energy for something else
---Give them Medium armor proficiency
Other than that, make sure there's a healthy amount of foci and it's almost perfect.
Cavaliers are a little squishy. With d10 HP and heavy armor, they're right on the line between the classes that can stand in melee with pretty much anything until it's dead and classes that can only eat one full attack. I realize that this supposed to get them to use shields...
...but shields aren't very good. Without getting into why this is or whether it should be, the current mechanics of Challenge encourage nearly every cavalier to dual-wield when not fighting mounted. If you don't want to swing the feats for that, you're still encouraged to go 2h because of Power Attack and the plain old fact that +2 AC isn't a big deal versus all the damage you lose going to a longsword.
I propose that the banner ability be renamed "Heraldry", and expanded to include a banner or a shield prominently displaying the cavalier's coat of arms. That way, cavaliers have a good reason to wield shields, you have a new angle to encourage the theme (possibly a large shield-themed bonus for the cavalier with smaller bonuses for the party?), and you don't have to deal with banners in banner-unfriendly environments (such as dungeons).
In fact, why not make one each of the Order's abilities work based on prominently displaying the Order's insignia or the cavalier's banner, a la turning undead (which is very good thematically, if not mechanically)? Braggart, Lion's Call, and Calling would need only flavor changes to fit this model already.
This post got eaten by a board glitch, so here's a repost from my cache.
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Apparently this is turning into the random brainstorm thread. That's cool.
Why do cavaliers have swim? I assume that fighters have it because fighter includes corsair/pirate/marine concepts, while cavaliers are a bit more specific and more paladin-like, and paladins don't have swim. The class concept is very heavily tooling-around-in-heavy-armor and riding stuff
Are we going to get a sidebar about non-medium cavaliers, or aquatic cavaliers? It would probably be a good idea to give the GM some general guidance on what "appropriate for a mount" means, and to talk about the game balance implications of allowing other animals. This cuts off the need to forever make new lists of mounts with new monster books; a little guidance for making new rules goes a long way.
Challenge targets have a strong incentive to never be in melee with a cavalier. The cavalier suffers heavy penalties no matter what, and the challenge bonuses are all large if the cavalier makes it to melee. This means that powerful foes are going to naturally avoid the cavalier, which is going to be quite frustrating to cavalier players, especially since they are powerless outside of melee and quite weak in mount-unfriendly conditions. There's really no tension here; the challenged target has no incentive whatsoever to answer a challenge, so it's less challenge and more of a threat.
The flipside of this is the risk of giving a cavalier bonuses when challenged foes aren't in melee. If they aren't abilities that precipitate melee as quickly as possible, then you'll have coward cavaliers challenging foes then avoiding them to keep the +3 AC to the whole party or whatever.
Cavaliers have mobility issues. They have a mechanic that says "Run away from me," no ranged potential whatsoever (except grabbing a bow and shooting it without bonuses, I guess), and are tied to a mount that cannot fly or swim. Would it be out of place to give them mobility abilities at high level, perhaps only while mounted?
Brainstorming some higher-end abilities to help with the mobility issues: the Order of the Cockatrice slows foes who don't answer a challenge, the Order of the Pegasus is famed for their winged mounts (which aren't all horses), the Order of the Star inflicts holy wrath on those who flee their challenges, the Order of the Shield and Sword do...something, I dunno, they seem to have concept issues.
Speaking of which, I don't get the Order of the Sword concept. Order of the Shield protects the common folk, Order of the Lion swears allegiance to a lord or lady, Order of the Dragon gets single combat, so Order of the Sword gets...extra damage? It's a salad of random abilities. Maybe they dedicate themselves to mastery of the blade? Or to bringing criminals to justice? (I notice we lack an Order of the FBI here.) Or overcoming superior foes?
What is going on with the Order of the Shield? A bonus on a single feat? Dying to damage less often in the most bookkeeping-intensive way? Charging as an immediate action? I don't see how any of these abilities protect the meek, or have anything to do with protecting or the meek.
There's a shortage of chaotic orders. There are plenty of chaotic cavalier concepts, but I note a lack of a Order of the Overthrowing-the-Tyrant or Overcoming-Overwhelming-Challenges or Mastery-of-the-Blade. Only Dragon and Shield (and Sword, but again, it kind of lacks a coherent concept anyway) seem to be chaotic-friendly.
Order of the Dragon gets a really lame bonus on challenges. I see what the design goal is and I like it (pick on the weak or unfair fights), but it should probably be made a bit more generally-useful. Perhaps the cavalier gets the bonus on challenge targets with less HP, or challenge targets that didn't strike him in melee since his last turn? The latter, in particular, says, "Pay attention to my beautiful style as I cut you down!" (I want to run a bishounen Order of the Dragon cavalier villain, so sue me. ¬_¬)
Did I mention that I <3 you guys for making scimitars the best 1h non-lance mounted weapon for cavaliers? Because I totally do.
A Man In Black wrote: ...and you don't have to deal with banners in banner-unfriendly environments (such as dungeons). So the LARGE Heavy Warhorse with all the Skills/Feats you'd invest into Ride IS FRIENDLY in a dungeon? The class as a whole doesn't feel very dungeon oriented one bit to me. I'd rather play a Marshal or a Paladin, he's not magnetically strapped to a horse, a banner and every enemy rogue you encounter. (Jockey, L4D2 anyone? Yea, like that.) It's awkward, like a dwarf on a sinking ship.
Daniel Moyer wrote: So the LARGE Heavy Warhorse with all the Skills/Feats you'd invest into Ride IS FRIENDLY in a dungeon? The class as a whole doesn't feel very dungeon oriented one bit to me. I'd rather play a Marshal, he's not magnetically strapped to a horse, a banner and every enemy rogue you encounter. It's awkward, like a dwarf on a sinking ship. That's a harsh criticism, as marshals are stone cold terrible.
Anyway. You're right, the cavalier has issues in constrained spaces. This is mostly brainstorming, but putting an emphasis on shields is stylish, gives them something somewhat unique, makes TWF not as ideal for them (because it's way out of flavor), and reduces the need to deal with a large and awkward object when the class already has large and awkward issues (with hooves). You could even kick the shield focus into an order, if you really want, but then you're not helping to fix some of the issues with the class as a whole.
I think the 'Companion' would be better as an option like the Ranger and Paladin. Something like 'Weapon Training'(Fighter), which would make it look similar to the 1E Cavalier who received training in specific weapons as he gained levels... +1 to hit longswords, then Lances, then maces, etc. Receiving the Companion(MOUNT ONLY) at 1st level (as per Druid, not at -3) pretty much says "You're stuck with this horse, make it work".
EDIT: I like the Marshal class quite a bit and would play one over this(Cavalier) given the choice. They're just a Bard with a more martial design. No spells, but can use auras(bard song) unlimited times and even 2 at once.
I think adding half-level to the Cavalier's Ride skill is a must, or something similar, because even with high dex a minus6+ penalty on ride checks is a little hampering for a horse-man.
A Man In Black wrote: Cavaliers are a little squishy. With d10 HP and heavy armor, they're right on the line between the classes that can stand in melee with pretty much anything until it's dead and classes that can only eat one full attack.
A d10 hit dice and heavy armor is squishy? Don't tell the fighter, ranger, or paladin...
Really makes you worry about those d8 and d6 classes too...
Varthanna wrote: Interpose (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever an adjacent ally takes damage, a cavalier may choose to receive all of one attack's damage.
Other options might be a higher level ability that you do prior to the attack, and use the cavalier's AC instead of his ally's. Also, maybe putting some cap on the amount he can do it (1/round, 1/encounter, whatever)
Or, simply, hoping there is a feat that could roughly mimic this in the APG :)
Ooh, nice ones! I really like your suggestions, especially 'Interpose' (it does mimic 'Glory of the Martyr' spell and Devoted Defender PrC, but that's just fine by me). Substituting the Cavalier's AC for your own would need to be carefully balanced and worded, or it would be abused -- in theory it's a nice and flavorful idea, though.
I was also thinking about an ability that would let you switch places with an ally as an immediate free action? Also, perhaps an ability that lets you grant adjacent wounded (=at or below half their HP total) allies some bonuses to AC?
Abraham spalding wrote: A Man In Black wrote: Cavaliers are a little squishy. With d10 HP and heavy armor, they're right on the line between the classes that can stand in melee with pretty much anything until it's dead and classes that can only eat one full attack.
A d10 hit dice and heavy armor is squishy? Don't tell the fighter, ranger, or paladin... If you're done being snarky and actually want to address what I'm saying, fighters and paladins get other abilities that increase their defenses, and rangers ARE squishy. Before heavy defensive buffs, there are three kinds of classes with regard to melee durability.
There are classes that can take two or more full attacks without dying. This includes most fighters, a smiting paladin, a raging barbarian, high-level druids, and certain cleric builds. These classes can enter melee with nearly any level-appropriate foe and stand there for the two to four rounds it takes to kill most level-appropriate foes.
There are classes that can eat one full attack tops. This includes rangers, monks, bards, most rogues, most druids, most clerics, and paladins or barbs without their limited-duration mojo. These classes can eat incidental attacks and standard-action hits, but cannot spend any significant time in melee with an ettin, or a troll, or a brute devil, or an elemental or whatever. These classes can enter melee to get something done, but they need to have a plan to get out of melee or something to do before entering melee because they can only enter for a killing blow or against weaker foes.
Then there are classes that can't even eat one full attack. Some divine casters, most arcane casters, some of the skilly classes. I don't need to explain this, I hope.
Cavaliers ride the line. They're with non-smiting paladins and non-raging barbarians and clerics in being the toughest of the second class or the wimpiest of the top class, but they really do have troubles with that second full attack. The thing is, people are going to look at d10 HP and heavy armor and assume that they're able to eat two-plus full attacks, and they really aren't without some sort of defensive class abilities.
Remember, people thought 3.5 fighters were tough, too.
Oath of Justice is really goofy. It suffers from a bag-of-rats problem, that the cavalier who wants the minor mechanical benefit of Oath of Justice is best served saying, "I'm going to take vengeance on this summoned monster!" every morning, then killing the summoned monster. Obviously, nobody's going to actually do that, but when you have a BBEG surrounded by mooks, I want the cavalier to have an incentive to swear an oath to bring the BBEG to justice, not an oath to bring Bob the henchman on the left to justice. I realize the HD bonus is meant to encourage you to use it on a tougher foe, but you generally won't use it on the toughest foe because then the fight is all but over.
Mr. Subtle wrote: I actually think the challenge mechanic is well balanced, and I hope it doesn't change much. Just think a (most likely) heavily armored knightly-man dueling it out with his foe, concentrating all his efforts on that baddie, and leaving his back exposed. A snaky little halfling with a dagger in his hand comes from behind, and puts the blade through a chink in his armor. Yes...although I'm not sure why the cavalier can't stop the challenge before his foe is dead. If it "requires much of the cavalier's concentration" to perform, surely it should be easy to stop concentrating on it, no?
hogarth wrote: Mr. Subtle wrote: I actually think the challenge mechanic is well balanced, and I hope it doesn't change much. Just think a (most likely) heavily armored knightly-man dueling it out with his foe, concentrating all his efforts on that baddie, and leaving his back exposed. A snaky little halfling with a dagger in his hand comes from behind, and puts the blade through a chink in his armor. Yes...although I'm not sure why the cavalier can't stop the challenge before his foe is dead. If it "requires much of the cavalier's concentration" to perform, surely it should be easy to stop concentrating on it, no? Maybe the "flanked" should only apply in a round where the Cavalier attacks his challenged foe. Something like:
"Anytime the Cavalier attacks his challenged foe, he is considered flanked until his next turn."
The foe stays challenged until death, or whatever, but if something calls his attention away from the challenged foe, within one round his penalty subsides...until he strikes at his nemesis again, of course.
Echoing my idea from another thread: I think it would work well to allow the cavalier to refocus his challenge whenever he is damaged by another enemy. Still only one at a time, still only one kill during challenge per combat; but essentially, he can change his mind about who is the most worthy opponent if someone else starts wailing on him.
A Man In Black wrote: Ride doesn't have an armor check penalty, so the first line of Mounted Mastery does nothing. According to the rules Ride does have a armor check penalty. As per the PRD.
"Armor Check Penalty: If this notation is included in the skill name line, an armor check penalty applies (see Equipment) to checks using this skill. If this entry is absent, an armor check penalty does not apply."
"Ride
(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)"
I like the Oracle with a few wrinkles to worked out which have already been mentioned, I see it as being a great class.
However, the Cavalier does not set well with me. A Cavalier is supposed to be a master horseman, a knight on horseback, a master in the saddle and out (because you know he is going to get dismounted by a big fist, tail, or a claymore or someone is going to set for a charge). In addition, the poor guy has to dismount some time or this character will be stuck on the open plains with no other place to go.
Imagine the horsemen (women) of Rohan and then mold them into Knights.
All I see is a bunch of words thrown together. They sound cool but I think the Cavalier continues to be abused and has been since they first appeared in 1st and 2nd editions. I have to look at it some more to give a more detailed review and provide suggestions.
I have to look again just to make sure that I do not post something that is already a class feature.
Why do oracles get Ex Revelations to give abilities that no martial class gets, or at much lower levels than martial classes? Battlefield Clarity and Surprising Charge are big offenders, but Rock Throwing is also annoying.
Cavaliers have a problem in common with monks, in that a large part of their class abilities simply cease to be relevant at a certain level. You can call it playstyle or whatever, but, like monk run speed, mounts simply shut off once a significant number of foes fly.
In fact, a fair amount of the special cavalier mount abilities come after foes have already started to get the ability to fly and also pelt the party from range. Fighters take a bow as their second favored weapon and suck it up, paladins smite at range and rock house, while cavalier sit quietly in the back with the monks and try not to get in the way, unless a party member is willing to help them out or unless they have boots of flight.
What is a cavalier supposed to do at range?
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cavaliers should have an option of a flying mount (pegasus ? hippogriff ... oh wait, no hippos in the bestiary. nightmare ?) at some point. I'm just not sure which point should that be at ?
Gorbacz wrote: Cavaliers should have an option of a flying mount (pegasus ? hippogriff ... oh wait, no hippos in the bestiary. nightmare ?) at some point. I'm just not sure which point should that be at ? Druids get all-day flight at 5. Wizards get it at 9. Clerics get it somewhere around 9-10. Sorcerers get it at 10, or from a class feature at 15. A Flying Carpet is affordable sometime between level 12 and 15.
Just for some benchmarks.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Thanks. OK, let's make the early flight a Druid scooby snack and give the Cavalier a flying horse/pony/ flying fish around lvl 10-12. Sounds reasonable ? Maybe an option to swap Ride-by Attack for Fly-by Attack as well. Hmm.
Gorbacz wrote: Cavaliers should have an option of a flying mount (pegasus ? hippogriff ... oh wait, no hippos in the bestiary. nightmare ?) at some point. I'm just not sure which point should that be at ? My thoughts exactly Gorbacz, they need more mount options. Also, while the Cavalier is mounted, he and his mount share reflex scores, evasion, and improved evasion. The mount should know tricks such as trample, defend the rider, non-combat tricks, and etc just like well trained mounts of the day or the modern day mounted police. They should receive damage and attack bonuses from a higher position while mounted fighting medium size creatures and no disadvantages while fighting large and charging about with the weight and str of a mount. Just because the mount is not charging, doesn't mean the mount can throw it's weight, attacks, and practiced attacks (such as spikes on the mounts barding) into battle,
For extra added bonus the Cavalier can be used while not mounted so they are not type cast in only a handful of adventures and campaigns, they are given special abilities while dismounted. Perhaps a rage-lite ability not from being a barbarian but because of their Death before Dishonor beliefs and character?
As for range, Cavaliers were known to charge into battle and not use range. However, perhaps that is another special ability you can give to the PF Cavalier to make him\her unique and stand out as a hero. Perhaps they receive the Repeating Crossbow exotic for free? Crossbows being a more stable platform than a bow plus it makes the Cavalier unique to other expert riding bow men such as the Plains Native Americans, the Samurai (the only ones to deploy long bows while mounted - everyone else had short bows), the Mongolians, and etc.
I just think the Cavalier is not really thought through and it has been this way for many years.
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