A lead full plate won't protect from scrying because it has to many openings to block the sensor. In the same logic windows should be enough to make useless the protection granted by the lead cover room.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Apparently the gold got dropped off somewhere along the way but here is the section the rule is in:Simply wearing a gilded (gold covered) armor could work for your heavy armor types (gold in even the thinnest sheet prevents divination) as can lead paint in the stronghold.You've stumped me on this one. Wha? I've never heard of this before and I can't find anything in the rules about it. I know that some materials block Detect Magic, but that's not Scrying.
I think your confussing some things here. Probably about the gilded part. Lead does block some divinations and detection spells. Gilded objects are (typically) refering to jewels and finery that is gold plated, but lead inside. I have never heard of the gold sheat blocking divinations, but I think you mixed it up due to gilding. It wasn't the gold, it was the lead, though I doubt paint would count.
Also, note that the lead only blocks some divintions from seeing thrugh it, not being used inside of it. A lead house would only block someone from trying to scry with the sensor outside the house. If the sensor is inside, they will still see just like normal. Of course, for the most part, the normal walls are going to block sight anyway.
I personally would never allow lead plated armor to block scrying. Lead lined dungeons or stronghold safe rooms? Sure but beside the heavy weight of lead shielding, lead has traditionally blocked scrying/porting inside of a shielded object. Just because you are in armor does not mean that a scrying sensor can't see you.
You know, if you wanted to make them check for lead poisoning regularly ok (I believe lead is actually in the list of poisons iirc). Lead armor of equal protection being heavier and possibly with more of an ACP and less Dex? I can see that too... or the opposite where the lead simply doesn't provide as much protection would make just as much sense really.
But to say that lead full plate wouldn't stop someone from scrying you where a lead room would... just smacks of "I don't like you thinking stop now!"
No, it's more like someone scrying can't see YOU but he can see a big oaf in heavy-ass lead armor and then assume what he will.
I personally would never allow lead plated armor to block scrying. Lead lined dungeons or stronghold safe rooms? Sure but beside the heavy weight of lead shielding, lead has traditionally blocked scrying/porting inside of a shielded object. Just because you are in armor does not mean that a scrying sensor can't see you.
You know, if you wanted to make them check for lead poisoning regularly ok (I believe lead is actually in the list of poisons iirc). Lead armor of equal protection being heavier and possibly with more of an ACP and less Dex? I can see that too... or the opposite where the lead simply doesn't provide as much protection would make just as much sense really.
But to say that lead full plate wouldn't stop someone from scrying you where a lead room would... just smacks of "I don't like you thinking stop now!"
It was a standard for my group in 1ed days.
Actually scrying on the lead itself would be useless too... lead specifically blocks scry...
Gold use to work in first and second edition... I'm not sure where it got dropped off at but it looks like it did along the way, hence why everyone is discussing lead now.
The odd part is the "magical protection" which is ill defined (actually not at all).
Magnificent mansion won't block the scrying in an of itself true... but it does prevent the teleport part of scry and die, and that's just as key to the tactic.
Lead specifically -blocks- scry. That's not the same thing as lead being invisible to scry. Think of it this way..a brick wall specifically blocks visible light, but that doesn't mean a brick wall is invisible to visible light.Actually scrying on the lead itself would be useless too... lead specifically blocks scry...
True.
We used to have leadfoil beanie hats to stop the government reading our PCs minds...PS I tend not to try and explain things as trying to actually convay exactly what you are thinking over the internet is a bit like trying to light a cigarette in a howling gale :)
Any chance you might be doing a Treantmonk's Guide to Clerics?
Mr. TreeMinky hates Clerics, I wouldn't hold my breath!
Mr. TreeMinky hates Clerics, I wouldn't hold my breath!
Any chance you might be doing a Treantmonk's Guide to Clerics?
Not true, quite happy to have a Cleric in the party. In a campaign I'm currently in our Cleric has died and we have to figure out how to live without any divine casters (low level) which is a bit of a pain (but not impossible).
Just not into playing them.
These guides are purely selfish (I use them as reference for my own characters and get the useful feedback to refine my observations) - so making a guide for a class I don't intend to ever play isn't likely to happen.
I might do a guide for a friend in a campaign WITH ME who needed some help in building a certain class - so no problem, just move to Calgary, join my group, and plan a Cleric character and I'll make a guide for them ;)
Seriously, I'm currently on break - but my next guide would more likely be a Rogue guide.
Fighter, Barbarian and Cleric guides are the least likely.
It is stationary and it does not block discern location or wish. Only mind blank does.
Mage's Magnificant Mansion is also a choice.
True - however, this is not the situation you described that you needed Mind Blank for.
You mentioned the BBG using scry to find out where your characters were and when you were weak - like right after a battle to pop in and gut you while you are down.
To do this the BBG isn't using Discern Location - it will tell him where you are, sure, but it will not tell him whether you are waiting with readied actions for his arrival. Not good. Nope, BBG who is cautious enough to use scry and die tactics is going to scry you - not discern location. If scrying fails - then he will resort to other options. There are more ways to spy than divination spells (as any half-decent conjurer will tell you)
He is going to most likely start by using one of the scrying options. Whether it is a simple Crystal Ball or the Greater Scrying spell - he wants to get you while you are down. Smart guy. If you use Mind Blank as your trusted defense against this, he's smarter than you.
Mind blank naturally is going to provide only nominal protection from this tactic. If he can't get you, or your party, then maybe their familiar, or their animal companion, or their mount, or henchmen, followers, whatever. Casting Mind Blank on them all daily??? Even if you are, you're still going to die.
After all, are you really doing anything but delaying the inevitable? He could simply scry on your favorite hangouts - waiting for a blank blur to open a door or leave footprints outside - then hear the bartender say, "Usual drink George?" Then use a wizard eye to follow the footprints and spy on you until you are ready to be killed. Poor George - he relied on Mind Blank.
Or (and this is really novel), he binds or hires something to follow you. Maybe some form of invisible spirit or ethereal creature - and use scrying to check in with it. Anti-Scry is easy to deal with when a pair of eyes works just fine.
Basically my point - is that Scry and Die tactics are difficult to prevent - unless your opponent is a moron, and if he is a moron, then how did he learn spells like discern location and Greater Scrying?
My advice to those who are suspicious that they are being scried is to be proactive instead of passive. I'm all for layering defenses - but scry and die will kill you despite any passive defenses you layer. Mind Blank is a passive defense - it may or may not delay the enemy, but you still have no control over the situation. It's also an extremely expensive resource to use as a single target, moderately helpful, passive scry defense. Not worth it by far.
Instead if you think you are being scryed - my suggestion would be to throw up a false vision. Let the enemy think you just got your butt handed to you by some awful creature and that you are weakened and ripe for attack - draw him in and kill him.
It's like having a nest of wasps beside your front door. You can simply walk carefully and hope they don't sting you (the mind blank method) - or you can take out the nest and kill the bastards (my method).
Mind Blank is a poor excuse for an 8th level spell - and I really couldn't live with myself if I made it anything but the red it deserves.
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If the enemy using scry-and-die tactics on you is a big issue in your campaign, then consider encouraging your DM to allow you to learn/research the 3.5 edition spells anticipate teleportation and greater anticipate teleportation. They won't stop the scrying, but will give you warning if some mob plans on popping in to assault you, and they are only 3rd and 6th level, respectively and cover the whole group. They delay those arriving and tell you how many creatures, their size, where exactly they will appear, etc. And the spell lasts for 24 hours. So you can turn that magical ambush against the ambushers.
They are not Pathfinder spells, hence not eligible for Treantmonk's guide; normally I wouldn't bother with them in most campaigns, but if scry-or-die is a major factor in your game, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have your high-level wizard research something like this to nip the problem in the bud.
I'm all for "offense is the best defense", but sometimes it simply isn't possible. Sometimes you need to be defensive.
I agree.
It's not just because Mind Blank is defensive. If you check my rankings you will find many Green or Blue ranked defensive spells.
It's that Mind Blank isn't a good or effective defense for the level of spell.
I can see the use of making invisibility stick or getting saving throw bonuses to important saving throws.
However, I'm not spending an 8th level slot on that. Especially when your invisibility can still be foiled by a 2nd level spell (Mind Blank doesn't make you Glitterdust-proof) and the save bonus isn't anywhere near a guaranteed save. Mind Blank is an 8th level defensive spell that is outclassed by lower level defenses.
It's not going to effectively protect you against enchantment as good as even a protection from evil spell (a first level spell!)
It's not going to prevent you being located by a determined enemy in the shadows.
It really amounts to a slightly pumped-up Nondetection spell (which isn't such a great spell itself) and probably +3 or +4 to save against enchantment (since it will overlap with your existing resistance bonuses) all for the cost of an 8th level spell slot.
Most importantly in the context of the conversation - it won't protect you from scry and die - though it will ensure you have less high level spells to rely on when that scry and die happens.
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In general, I see your points, and I agree about being proactive. But you can't always be on the move. Sometimes you'll have to be defensive at least for some time while you are preparing yourself for the climatic confrontation (e.g. finding that artifact that you need to defeat the Bad Guy, locating the Evil Overlord phylactery, those sorts of campaign-quests).
Mind blank naturally is going to provide only nominal protection from this tactic. If he can't get you, or your party, then maybe their familiar, or their animal companion, or their mount, or henchmen, followers, whatever. Casting Mind Blank on them all daily??? Even if you are, you're still going to die.
Animal companions, bonded mounts and the like are in fact weak points in this respect. I agree. We did not have that problem so I can't rely on my experience on that.
The wizard with the bonded object is probably safer (losing your object is not that likely, in particular if it is a ring or such, and in any case at high levels your concentration check is automatic if you have a decent Int score, as I expect you to have).
After all, are you really doing anything but delaying the inevitable? He could simply scry on your favorite hangouts - waiting for a blank blur to open a door or leave footprints outside - then hear the bartender say, "Usual drink George?" Then use a wizard eye to follow the footprints and spy on you until you are ready to be killed. Poor George - he relied on Mind Blank.
I was not aware that arcane eye would work against mind blank. The description qualifies it as "divination (scrying)", so I though it would be foiled. Following the footprints is a bit of a stretch, high level characters teleport around all the time. :)
(This said, towards the end of our campaign we were too paranoid to just casually appear at the inn in our usual and potentially recognizable looks. We were continuously under some illusion, e.g. seeming or veil, we harshly limited pleasure trips, and we often resorted to commune to double-check if we were being spyied upon or our location was known or Evil Overlord (TM) was aware of our next destination and so on -- saving the world does not leave much spare time unfortunately).
Or (and this is really novel), he binds or hires something to follow you. Maybe some form of invisible spirit or ethereal...
This might be effective, but - unless you can see through its eyes - you need to scry your invisible/ethereal emissary, and your sensor would not see anything except the emissary itself (if PCs are blanketed). So it needs to be able to report to you in some way and promptly too (e.g. sending, some telepathic connection, etc.)
In that case it can be dangerous. However, beyond level 15 or so it is rare (IMO) that PCs (or at least one of them) don't have some way to continuously detect invisible creatures. It would be risky not to.Or/And (and this is not that novel anymore :P) you could hire or bind something to keep an eye on you and thwart enemy espionage.
Edit: I had unadvertently skipped your comment on discern location, so I am adding this now.
Discern location is dangerous not for scry-and-die proper but because it is propaedeutic to it. If the Really Bad Guy (TM) knows where you spend most of your time / where your headquarter is (even if that HQ is just a magnificent mansion where you are spending 8-10 hours) he can start tracking you with the techniques you mentioned: spyies, called creatures, keeping an eye on the local temple/tavern/royal palace or whatever. But if he has no idea about where the party is based (because discern locations and even wishes fail) it is much more difficult to put something after you, and keeping all the taverns of the multiverse under strict surveillance is going to be rather unwieldy.
So, all in all, I must say I still respectfully disagree with your harsh judgement of mind blank (I say harsh because red color-code means that you don't even suggest to keep the spell somewhere in the spellbook for situational use, IIRC), although I very much appreciated your clarifications about the reasons for that.
I agree, on the other hand, as I said, on the importance of offence first - when feasible.
I also think that the false vision tactic is a good one, although it is unfortunate that it has a material component and, most of all, you need to stay concentrated to have the images moving. And staying concentrated for hours per day can be messy. If you greater scry a party and they are always static you know there is something fishy.
However, I'm not spending an 8th level slot on that. Especially when your invisibility can still be foiled by a 2nd level spell (Mind Blank doesn't make you Glitterdust-proof) and the save bonus isn't anywhere near a guaranteed save. Mind Blank is an 8th level defensive spell that is outclassed by lower level defenses.
Glitterdust is for making your teammates aware of where an invisible creature is. If you can't see it you can't target its area with glitterdust. You can likely target the general area with a good Perception (sound) check, assuming they've cast a spell or done something noisy that round. Also assuming they haven't moved, since a 10 foot radius spread isn't that big. Furthermore I don't see anything in the rules about it extending in the air like Fog Cloud or other spreads that specifically say so therefore it can be reasonably interpreted that it is foiled by a flying creature as little as 5 feet in the air. Let's say 15 feet just in case you argue that the spell spreads in all dimensions.
Glitterdust is a spectacular spell for its level and is usefull far into higher levels, but revealing of all invisible foes is not automatic. If you're going to assume that every encounter at level 15+ will have someone or something able to cast it in order to cancel a wizard's Invisibility spell then I can assume that wizard has Overland Flight and a metamagic rod of Silent Spell. In which case that wizard benefits strongly from Mind Blank, among its other uses when used in conjunction with a 2nd level spell Invisibility, makes him undetectable and untargettable in 90% of encounters at the level it becomes available and obviating most other combat defenses a wizard might waste his spell slots on.
Invisibility Purge on the other hand, a cleric only spell, totally eff's that wizards game.
Protection from Evil doesn't provide you immunity to an entire class of spells, either. It stops you from being actively dominated, sure. But you can still be Held, Suggested, even CHARMED...it stops active control. In this respect, Charm is better then Domination, because domination works on mental control, which Prot/Evil stops, and Charm works on vocal control...which Prot/Evil doesn't. Mind Blank works against everything.
Mind Blank for a Red ranking? Complete immunity to elemental damage is also a high level spell, and easily gotten around. Completely immunity to direct divination and enchantment spells? I think Mind Blank is pretty bloody nice, especially if you never have to make that save against Will.
I'll also note that Anticipate Teleport can be gotten around, too. The BBEG can teleport in somewhere close by, just not in range of the spell. That could be the rooftops at the edge of the village square. You're still in range of ranged attacks.
As a side note, Prot/Evil is overpowered for its level, but its in there as a classic answer/prot against summoned beasties.
==Aelryinth
Protection from Evil doesn't provide you immunity to an entire class of spells, either. It stops you from being actively dominated, sure. But you can still be Held, Suggested, even CHARMED...it stops active control. In this respect, Charm is better then Domination, because domination works on mental control, which Prot/Evil stops, and Charm works on vocal control...which Prot/Evil doesn't. Mind Blank works against everything.
Mind Blank for a Red ranking? Complete immunity to elemental damage is also a high level spell, and easily gotten around. Completely immunity to direct divination and enchantment spells? I think Mind Blank is pretty bloody nice, especially if you never have to make that save against Will.
I'll also note that Anticipate Teleport can be gotten around, too. The BBEG can teleport in somewhere close by, just not in range of the spell. That could be the rooftops at the edge of the village square. You're still in range of ranged attacks.
As a side note, Prot/Evil is overpowered for its level, but its in there as a classic answer/prot against summoned beasties.
==Aelryinth
No, Protection from X grants inmunity from Charm and Compulsion, provided they were cast by a caster of X alingment, this include every offensive spells in the enchantment school with the exception of the Power Words.
Yawar
Protection from Evil doesn't provide you immunity to an entire class of spells, either.
Correct. However, the protection it does provide is at least as good - if not better, than Mind Blank (which doesn't provide immunity either)
It stops you from being actively dominated, sure. But you can still be Held, Suggested, even CHARMED...it stops active control.
Huh? The spell says specifically Enchantment (Compulsion) AND Enchantment (Charm) effects.
How is Charm not an enchantment (Charm) effect?
If you need more official clarification - check the 3.5 FAQ under "protection from evil" where charm person is named SPECIFICALLY as one of the spells that is supressed.
In this respect, Charm is better then Domination, because domination works on mental control, which Prot/Evil stops, and Charm works on vocal control...which Prot/Evil doesn't. Mind Blank works against everything.
Sorry - you lost me at "PoE doesn't work against Charm..."
However, it sounds like you also don't know the Mind Blank rules - read on.
Mind Blank for a Red ranking? Complete immunity to elemental damage is also a high level spell, and easily gotten around.
But not overshadowed by superior lower level spells.
Completely immunity to direct divination and enchantment spells? I think Mind Blank is pretty bloody nice, especially if you never have to make that save against Will.
Ah...problem solved. These are the Pathfinder boards. Please read the Pathfinder rules, not 3.5.
Mind Blank no longer gives immunity to enchantment. It gives a resistance bonus to enchantment saves. Yeah - the #1 reason to memorize and cast Mind Blank is gone.
Note that Protection from Evil doesn't grant immunity either - but it does give you a second saving throw.
In general, I see your points, and I agree about being proactive. But you can't always be on the move. Sometimes you'll have to be defensive at least for some time while you are preparing yourself for the climatic confrontation (e.g. finding that artifact that you need to defeat the Bad Guy, locating the Evil Overlord phylactery, those sorts of campaign-quests).
I don't mean to suggest you should always take the offense.
However, if taking the defense - spending 8th level spell slots on spells that do a subpar job for the level isn't your best strategy.
I was not aware that arcane eye would work against mind blank.
It wouldn't. However, it would still provide you the information you need.
imagine you are scrying a room. Then someone with Mind Blank opens the door to the room. What do you see?
Well - the door isn't mind blanked, so you see it open, but you can't see what opened it. That's got to be a big tipoff.
Mind Blank has always been way too resource intensive to be a viable PC party. By the time the caster has enough 8th level slots open to cover a party of 4-5 members the campaign is either 20th level or very very close (Int 26 gets you +1 8th level slot, you have to get to 34+ to get 2 extra slots). That's an enormous investment in a spell defense that is simply not that great.
I'd almost certainly prefer to have an extra horrid wilting or dragon form III or Quickened Black Tentacles, etc.
That's not to say that a solo wizard should never prep this spell. I'm not adverse to a NPC wizard burning a slot prepping it but it's one thing for the NE Necromancer who doesn't care about his minions to protect himself it's a whole other level of investment for a wizard to be expected to expend his entire 8th level slots in what is pretty weak protection.
Now if you are talking unbalanced parties featuring a large number of high level wizards and sorcerors then the equation shifts some as it's less of an investment but still it's not that great of a spell.
Note that Protection from Evil doesn't grant immunity either - but it does give you a second saving throw.
I've always thought this second saving throw was for 'rescuing' a charmed ally who failed a save before the Protection spell was cast.
From D20PFSRD:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.
Now let's consider what happens when someone 'Protected' is subjected to a 'Charm'. Initial save, succesful negates, unsuccessful proceed. Presumed second save, successful = effects suppressed for duration, unsuccessful = target immune to attempts to exercise mental control. I'm pretty satisfied with the unsuccessful save result here and, therefore, assumed the second save only benefitted those 'Protected' after being 'Charmed'. Thoughts?
Gak me, +8 resistance bonus? If it was insight, then it'd be okay...but a max +3 over a cloak or ring?
Feh.
vs. virtual immunity from members of the one alignment most likely to use this stuff on you. Mmm.
I can see where your ranking plummeted. I don't know if it's red...the blanket immunity to divination can be very strong, and really, doesn't suffer any more then someone using invisibility would.
But it is most definitely much less then it was. +8 saves would be nice, but making it resistance doesn't stack with generic protection. Ehhh.
Forgot that they changed it so much. Oh well.
==Aelryinth
Looking at the text...
"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all."
Does this mean it work against True Seeing too? I.e. Invisible mage with mindblank vs true seeing?
Looking at the text...
"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all."
Does this mean it work against True Seeing too? I.e. Invisible mage with mindblank vs true seeing?
'
To my knowledge, True Seeing does not penetrate any spell that blocks divination, including Nondetection and Mind Blank.
Certainly, it doesn't indicate under "true seeing" that it penetrates these types of spells, which would suggest to me it doesn't.
Thoughts?
While under Protection from Evil all attempts to control you are suppressed.
However, if the target of Protection from Evil is already under a compulsion or charm effect, they get the second save at +2. If that save is failed - they remain charmed/compulsed, though any new attempts to charm/compulse them are suppressed.
This occurs quite often since Protection from X is often not pre-cast since it has a limited duration - it is often applied after an ally is enchanted to rid them of the enchantment by giving them that second save at a bonus.
That's why it's such a good idea for a Wizard to carry a Wand of Protection from Evil.
While under Protection from Evil all attempts to control you are suppressed.
However, if the target of Protection from Evil is already under a compulsion or charm effect, they get the second save at +2. If that save is failed - they remain charmed/compulsed, though any new attempts to charm/compulse them are suppressed.
I'm confused:
This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If SUCCESSFUL, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell.
If that second save is SUCCESSFUL, they remain charmed/compulsed (seems like this second save isn't a negation save), but control/influence cannot be exerted. Succesful or failed save = immunity to NEW attempts to possess or control. I'd say that equates to any spell cast after the Protection. Please describe your take on success/failure for the second save, as your initial response indicated a successful save result for a failed save.
I'm confused:
I read your post and so am I!
Here's how it works to my best estimation.
Scenario 1:
Bob has been charmed by the BBEG. He rolled his save and failed and now he is under an enchantment (charm) effect.
Willy the Wizard realizes that Bob has been charmed and casts protection from evil on Bob.
At this point Bob gets another saving throw against the charm at a +2 morale bonus.
If he succeeds on the roll - the effect isn't gone, but it is suppressed for the duration of the spell. (which is the same as "gone" until the PFE wears off)
If he fails on the roll - the charm is unaffected and continues.
Regardless of the results of the save - he is immune to any other attempts of control by enchantment for the duration of the spell.
Scenario 2
Willy the Wizard has already cast Protection from Evil on Bob.
the BBEG attempts to Charm Bob.
Too bad - Bob's immune. No saving throw required.
To sum up
The second saving throw is only recieved if the target of the PFE is ALREADY under the effect of Enchantment (charm)/Enchantment (Compulsion). The spell creates immunity for the duration of the spell against new attempts at enchantment, but those already in effect it [i]may[/b] suppress if a successful save is made.
If you get PFE and aren't under the effect of Enchantment (charm)/(compulsion) effects - then you are immune to any of these attempts by evil creatures for the duration of the spell.
Also note that the one using the Enchantment MUST be evil for PFE to work against them. A true neutral enchanter cannot be foiled by any of the protection spells (just as a true neutral summoned creature cannot be held at bay by any protection spell - making summon nature's ally tougher).
Before someone says that is wrong - This is a divergence from 3.5 rules where protection from X spells were almost blanket immunity to natural attacks of summoned creatures and enchantments.
I just realized, the only thing keeping us from complete agreement on this are words (given that the charm remains for the second save, regardless of its success/failure, I misinterpreted you). Thanks for the additional clarity!
BTW: I'm now a telekinesis convert after the discussion/ideas from this thread.
Lead specifically states it stops the scry from working and you know that it isn't working. It doesn't say, "Oh you can't see through the lead but you can see the lead itself." It says, "The spell is blocked and you know it is blocked."
In advanced d&d gold also stopped divination spells... yes that has gotten dropped off, but that doesn't mean that it didn't work in the past (which was what my last statement on gold was.
In all actuality I believe (tangent here on advanced d&d as opposed to pathfinder) that lead and gold blocking divination was based somewhat loosely on the fact that these materials also block radiation (which is why they are used in spacecraft... gold more than lead as it weighs less... lead is used more on planet).
I would classify that tactic as 'too cheesy' and disallow it as DM. Casting spells with no real targets (i.e. stand on a standing creature) to generate the cloud. Aren't there other immediate or swift conjurations which are actually useful at all times?
Would Cloudy Conjuration work with the "Stand" spell from PHBII, such that a caster could use an immediate action to apply a -2 penalty to a foe's saving throw and then use a save/die spell during the same round? Stand allows a saving throw so if the opponent makes it, does that in any way affect the cloudy conjuration aspect of the action?
Thanks!
OK - so this question deals with 3.5. In general, I would like to avoid 3.5 discussion here.
that said
Yep, it does work. Saving vs the effect makes no difference. Watch that the cloud doesn't completely conceal your foe or you've screwed yourself.
The spell "blockade" is also a good candidate for this kind of strategy.
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My party had the same response when I told them I wasn't going to be chucking any fireballs around. In fact, my character had no capacity to deal hp damage at all. The other players' incredulity regarding this notion was quite entertaining. But after preventing a few TPKs with save-or-lose spells, they quickly grew to respect the strength of the non-damaging wizard. ;)
Apparently, by perusing the Wizard's Guide, it looks like Treantmont is not a big fan of save-or-lose spells either (exceptions might be granted if the spells affects many targets). He is all for battlefield control and - of course - summoning! ;)
This said, the occasional blast spell is not to be frowned upon in certain cases IMO.
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Take another look at the spell list. There are tons of green/blue save or lose spells. Just no single target versions... ;)
Yes, maybe there are a few. But not the ones you would regularly expect! ;)
(Well, with save-or-lose I mean, really lose, like flesh to stone. But if, for you, also slow is save-or-lose then yes, there are many of those in the green/blue cathegory).
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I don't agree with everything Treantmonk recommends. I'm only about 60% in agreement with him, but its a very important 60%.
Sometimes, a good save or die is just the thing to break the enemy's charge and give your fighters and rogues enough breathing room to mount a counter attack.
My agreement score is probably around 65%, but we have different takes on some high-level spells (e.g. mind blank as it should be obvious by now).
Also, I don't think Summon Monster IX is that impressive, since at levels 17+ people enemy casters use disjunction a lot and so... goodbye summoned creatures! (Now Treantmonk is going to be very angry with me, I suppose...)I much prefer the 8th level Greater Planar Binding (which is also rated blue... for good reasons).
Oh, and gate is quite good too, not for conjuring (calling) creatures (too expensive) but to move around through the planes in a fast and - most of all - accurate way! Just appear exactly where you want! Also, two of those and you can almost replicate a teleportation circle without paying a costly material component... Really many people can transit through a gate in 1 round/level, if need be!
But what is more important is that I could not agree more with him about the godhood of the Wizard class! :D
I tend to avoid Save or Die spells for single targets at all times. At higher levels monsters tend to have saves at +20 up to +25. They will generally succeed 75% of the time. I'd rather chip some hitpoints of it or have it waste its action (reversing gravity, maze or any other things that requires him to spend a standard action to dispel or a move action to prevent his full attack). Multi-target saves or lose/die however are pretty good because there's bound to be at least 1 enemy that will fail his save.
I don't agree with everything Treantmonk recommends. I'm only about 60% in agreement with him, but its a very important 60%.
Sometimes, a good save or die is just the thing to break the enemy's charge and give your fighters and rogues enough breathing room to mount a counter attack.
The problem with save or die is it is in general the worst spell for giving the rest of the party breathing room.
It has a tendancy to either win the battle - or do nothing.
Debuffs, Buffs and Battlefield controls are all designed exactly for giving the party breathing room - and many (at least buffs/BC's) can do it without worrying about saving throws.
Single target save or die is an all or nothing proposition relying on luck. Always. That's a bad choice for a wizard IMO, especially when you can take luck out of the equation.
Treantmonk, in your guide you state that taking the agile maneuver's feat is to increase the wizards CMD. But from what i can tell, the feat only effects CMB, which to me is not worth taking at all. (for a wizard anyway)
Effectiveness of single target SoD/SoS spells is also highly dependent on GM playstyle. If the majority of the fights are against 3-4 or more (CR-1/2) foes rather than one big CR appropriate foe then only being able to take out 1 means that you action only negated 1/4 or less of the threat. Instead a group debuff or control spell that damages a block of enemies and weakens them for the melee types to slaughter can be more efficient.
Note saying that heavy duty SoD/SoS spells don't have their place in the game but that going for the auto-win button has some potential drawbacks.