Director of Games
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Welcome to the start of the Advanced Player's Guide playtest. To get things started, we are going to be reviewing two of the six classes set to appear in the Advanced Player's Guide: the Cavalier and the Oracle.This messageboard is for posting specific feedback and playtest observations concerning these classes. All other feedback should go on the appropriate board.
Like the playtest of the core rules, I am looking for feedback concerning the mechanics and flavor of these classes. Since these are brand new classes, however, actual playtest feedback is of the utmost importance. Raw speculation and musings are useful, but playtesting is the most valuable feedback we can get at this stage. In particular, I am looking for feedback on how each of these classes work at various levels. Were any of the powers or special abilities too good or not good enough? Are the powers and abilities clear in their presentation and language? Do they function they way they are intended and if not, what are the ramifications? How do these classes work as NPCs or villains?
Make sure to post the level at which you are using the class and any relevant details about the game in which they made an appearance. Make sure to note the foes that they faced and the results of the combat.
I am looking forward to working with the community to refine these classes into a seamless part of the game. Now go and roll up some characters.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Now the fun starts :)
At a very quick glance, they both look fun. Obviously, there will be more to the Oracle I wouldthink in terms of curses and foci but the Cavalier is very Marhsally which I love
On a first look, very nice
Is this only a sampling of the Oracle's Foci, or the complete list?
Cavalier Orders look like they will be a lot of fun to play.
that they do. I was meh on this class till I read this, it looks fun
First impressions:
Cavalier is pretty much what I would expect for the class, given the history of cavaliers in D&D.
Oracle. All I can say is AWESOME. I take back any & ALL complaints as to the name of the class. From reading it, I would say the Oracle is the PERFECT name. I already have visions of an NPC Oracle that is an old man with the spirit curse and battle foci. He would be like the Irishman off of the movie Braveheart. Arguing with the spirits and seemingly talking to himself all the time, lol. Better than the battle foci, the NPC could be a dwarf with the stone foci. Better yet, Fizban from Dragonlance with a Flame Foci.
"What was that spell again? Oh yes......FIREBALL!"
Quick Glance...
Cavalier looks like it will be a huge benefit to have in the party, due to his ability to single out opponents and help 'the team' take them down. Not sure my players will enjoy fighting them, but I think it will lead to some very interesting tactical encounters.
Oracle looks solid, and I love the idea that they have flaws/perks with the curses that they endure. I can see quite a bit of modularity with this class in terms of new curses/foci that can be added as time goes on.
Very much looking forward to using these!
I too have not the patience to save comment untill I have gotten past a quick glance.
Cavalier looks really interesting, there is all sorts of inspiration for role play and plot hooks there in the class itself I love that. I have always pulled my inspiration for how I play the character from the crunchy bits, and the cavalier is loaded with ideas. Am I the only one who saw the vow of chastity and thought immediately of a scene from monty python's holy grail? Anyway, I think there is alot that can be done with these and I look forward to playtesting them.
The oracle is similarly full of good stuff. Its a divine sorceror with lots of interesting twists. The curses are intriguing, and I am looking forward to seeing what impact they can have. One of my gaming mates will definately have fun with the haunted curse if he decides to play one.
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My first thoughts include;
Order of the Cockatrice? I wonder how many messageboards will bleep that out and end up reading Order of the ****atrice. :)
Focus, not loving that the word is already one that has a definition in the game. I think I'd prefer something like Cynosure or Discipline (or something wordier, like Disciplines of Faith), that doesn't have a meaning already.
Curses are interesting, mechanically, and lend themselves to fun flavor interpretations (deafened as her ears can only hear the music of the spheres, vision clouded by images of paths untaken, endless possibilities blurring her sight to what is really happening around her, etc.).
Delayed spell aquisition like a Sorcerer. I kinda hate that for Sorcerers, as well as here, but I guess it's consistent.
Lotta undead-creating stuff for those undead-despising Pharasmans in the Bones focus. But that's more of an annoying limitation with the reigning death-goddess, than anything wrong with the class.
Interesting stuff...
My first thoughts include;
Lotta undead-creating stuff for those undead-despising Pharasmans in the Bones focus. But that's more of an annoying limitation with the reigning death-goddess, than anything wrong with the class.
Doesn't this seem like some kind of recurring bug? Why does Pharasma keep getting pigeon holed with undead creation? It was weird enough that this error (I assume that's what it is) wasn't fixed in the core domains, but now it's being repeated. Strange..
More on topic: these classes are very cool so far. haven't finished with the Cavalier but the Oracle seems really fun and super flavorful. Really like the curses.
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Doesn't this seem like some kind of recurring bug? Why does Pharasma keep getting pigeon holed with undead creation? It was weird enough that this error (I assume that's what it is) wasn't fixed in the core domains, but now it's being repeated. Strange..My first thoughts include;
Lotta undead-creating stuff for those undead-despising Pharasmans in the Bones focus. But that's more of an annoying limitation with the reigning death-goddess, than anything wrong with the class.
[tangent]
My quick fix. The *official* church of Pharasma is all 'unholy abominations!' while the church has a 'heretical' arm that considers it a transitive state between life and death, precariously balanced on the cusp, making it particularly holy to the goddess who lives in that moment between the worlds of the living and the dead. They're the ones who scoff at the Repose domain and go straight for Death. Said naughty Pharasmans are LE, mostly, with some LNs, while the 'mainstream' church is dominated this generation by LG and LN 'unclean things!' people. Every couple of centuries, the pendulum swings, and the church is okay with undead again. This generation, they are way over there in 'undead, bad, mmkay' territory.It's also terribly convenient that the 'official' church, welcome in all lands, is all nicey-nice and squeaky-clean, so that cities like Absalom welcome them, as opposed to more obviously undead-friendly churches like Urgathoa, who tend to draw the stank eye when they apply for a building permit. Convenient, practical and quite mercenary, to softpedal certain less savory tenents of their faith to get their foot in the door...
[/tangent]
Just gave it a quick one over and was impressed with what I saw. Lots of fun stuff for players. As a 3PP, WOW!!! There is a lot of new ideas that came to me as I read this. I can't wait to see the other 4 classes.
And one last thing, Wayne Reynold's artworks is AMAZING!!!! The Iconic he drew were perfect. Great work, but I natually expect that from Paizo.com
The following foci are just some of those that will appear in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide. As the playtest continues, other foci will be made available through the messageboards at paizo.com.
Bah, reading is hard. ;-)
My first thoughts include;
Lotta undead-creating stuff for those undead-despising Pharasmans in the Bones focus. But that's more of an annoying limitation with the reigning death-goddess, than anything wrong with the class.
Doesn't this seem like some kind of recurring bug? Why does Pharasma keep getting pigeon holed with undead creation? It was weird enough that this error (I assume that's what it is) wasn't fixed in the core domains, but now it's being repeated. Strange..
More on topic: these classes are very cool so far. haven't finished with the Cavalier but the Oracle seems really fun and super flavorful. Really like the curses.
One thing about the Foci of Bones is that it is possible to make a 20th level Oracle that has nothing to with controlling/creating Undead, as there are seven different revelations you can use that do not involve undead:
-Armor of Bones (quite appropriate)
-Bleeding Wounds
-Death's Touch
-Near Death
-Soul Siphon
-Spirit Walk
-Voice of the Grave
The Final Revelation does grant the ability to Animate Dead, but it is by no means the only part of the revelation. Instead I'd just be happy with the Power Word kill as well as bleed/stabilize. The only other Undead creating abilities would be the bonus spells, which could easily be substituted by agreeable GMs.
That being said, I think we need to look at the Oracle class as described. An Oracle does not specifically worship Pharasma, instead he/she worships an ideal like Undeath, which obviously could involve summoning Undead. As per my notes above, one could make an Oracle devoted specifically to Pharasma with appropriate abilities.
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Director of Games
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That being said, I think we need to look at the Oracle class as described. An Oracle does not specifically worship Pharasma, instead he/she worships an ideal like Undeath, which obviously could involve summoning Undead. As per my notes above, one could make an Oracle devoted specifically to Pharasma with appropriate abilities.
And this was exactly the intent of the class. Its not all about worshiping a single deity... far from it. Oracles are polytheistic at best. They are primarily concerned with their focus, and less about the gods that support that ideal.
That said, it can be played closer to the deities if you so desire, and we made sure that you can chose revelations that allow you to follow one deity closely, even if the other revelations run counter to that deities ideals.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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One thing about the Foci of Bones is that it is possible to make a 20th level Oracle that has nothing to with controlling/creating Undead,
Except for those pesky Foci spells of animate dead, create undead and create greater undead, which the Oracle specifically cannot swap out.
Yeah, I noticed that you could cherry pick Revelations, but that still doesn't make the Bones Oracle fit the Pharasman undead-hating ideal.
It's a case of flavor text forbidding a class from using class abilities that it is specifically granted (either via the Death Domain, for a Cleric, or the Bones Focus, for an Oracle). Quirky.
One thing about the Foci of Bones is that it is possible to make a 20th level Oracle that has nothing to with controlling/creating Undead, as there are seven different revelations you can use that do not involve undead:
-Armor of Bones (quite appropriate)
-Bleeding Wounds
-Death's Touch
-Near Death
-Soul Siphon
-Spirit Walk
-Voice of the GraveThe Final Revelation does grant the ability to Animate Dead, but it is by no means the only part of the revelation. Instead I'd just be happy with the Power Word kill as well as bleed/stabilize. The only other Undead creating abilities would be the bonus spells, which could easily be substituted by agreeable GMs.
That being said, I think we need to look at the Oracle class as described. An Oracle does not specifically worship Pharasma, instead he/she worships an ideal like Undeath, which obviously could involve summoning Undead. As per my notes above, one could make an Oracle devoted specifically to Pharasma with appropriate abilities.
Indeed, the rpg rules will not and should not be specific to a setting, adjustments to classes should be made based on settings used, they shouldnt come built in.
I was wondering if it was considered for the Cavalier's Oaths to be bonuses that are applied while attempting to keep the oath, rather than a bonus for completing the oath (or perhaps a combination of the two). Given that the cavalier class seems to describe the "honor-based" warrior, it would seem to me more appropriate that he makes a "Thou shalt not pass" or "i will protect you from harm" oath, get some kind of bonus that allows him or her to keep the oath, then get a morale-based bonus for succeeding (or a morale-based penalty for failing).
But maybe that's just me.
One thing about the Foci of Bones is that it is possible to make a 20th level Oracle that has nothing to with controlling/creating Undead,Except for those pesky Foci spells of animate dead, create undead and create greater undead, which the Oracle specifically cannot swap out.
Yeah, I noticed that you could cherry pick Revelations, but that still doesn't make the Bones Oracle fit the Pharasman undead-hating ideal.
It's a case of flavor text forbidding a class from using class abilities that it is specifically granted (either via the Death Domain, for a Cleric, or the Bones Focus, for an Oracle). Quirky.
Oh, very quirky! As I mentioned, you'd also need to get GM permission to swap out those spells (and if generous, give you another bonus on that Final Revelation).
It's not like the Oracle is an ideal Pharasma only class, but if you were really insistent on it, you could bulldoze your way against the actual description of the class and make a strict Pharasma Oracle. Though personally I think the Bones Foci works very well with the gods they've decided on. While Urgathoa and Pharasma are opposing forces with different views, they both hover around death... the force which the Oracle would revere.
Ooh ooh! First page! :D Now to download...
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The cavalier's challenge seems a little wonky. If the cavalier issues his challenge, and then a rogue gets involved with the cav in melee, the cavalier is dead. (ie - sneak attack, sneak attack, sneak attack) The challenge lasts until the target is dead or unconscious. You can't turn it off or redirect it. Seems like something I wouldn't use often...
That was the first thing i noticed too, "Melee attacks made against the cavalier, except those made by the target of his challenge, treat the cavalier as if he is f lanked." That seems like a huge potential boon to Rogues. I'd rather see it say foes other than the challenged get a +2 circumstance bonus to attacks made against the Cav, but to say treat as flanked is begging the Rogue to come over and kidney-stab the Cav. If nothing else, a parenthetical saying "treat as flanked (except with regard to the Rogue's Sneak Attack and similar abilities)" seems to be in order.
Beyond that I think not being able to turn off or redirect the challenge is an issue.
-Skeld
PS: I'm at work so none of my comments have any playtest behind them.
That was the first thing i noticed too, "Melee attacks made against the cavalier, except those made by the target of his challenge, treat the cavalier as if he is f lanked." That seems like a huge potential boon to Rogues. I'd rather see it say foes other than the challenged get a +2 circumstance bonus to attacks made against the Cav, but to say treat as flanked is begging the Rogue to come over and kidney-stab the Cav. If nothing else, a parenthetical saying "treat as flanked (except with regard to the Rogue's Sneak Attack and similar abilities)" seems to be in order.
Beyond that I think not being able to turn off or redirect the challenge is an issue.
-Skeld
PS: I'm at work so none of my comments have any playtest behind them.
Mechanically I am in complete agreement with you. The potential for rogues to jump the Cavalier is way too high in the current rendition of the rules.
However, flavor wise I do believe the sneak attacking rogues really would be the bane of a Cavalier's life. After all, the Cavalier is basically a knight in shining armor, going off to challenge his enemies in noble combat... then along comes the sneak rogue to ruin his day. It almost seems too perfect to change! :D
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First of all... *GREAT* illustrations -- I think Wayne has "nailed" it once again! For some reason he seems to do his best pieces for Paizo... :)
Secondly, the only thing that bothered me (after a quick glance) was the Cavalier's 'Supreme Charge' ability -- why is the DC tied to BAB, rather than 10 + 1/2 x level plus STR or CON, or even CHA?
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Director of Games
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That was the first thing i noticed too, "Melee attacks made against the cavalier, except those made by the target of his challenge, treat the cavalier as if he is f lanked." That seems like a huge potential boon to Rogues. I'd rather see it say foes other than the challenged get a +2 circumstance bonus to attacks made against the Cav, but to say treat as flanked is begging the Rogue to come over and kidney-stab the Cav. If nothing else, a parenthetical saying "treat as flanked (except with regard to the Rogue's Sneak Attack and similar abilities)" seems to be in order.
Beyond that I think not being able to turn off or redirect the challenge is an issue.
-Skeld
PS: I'm at work so none of my comments have any playtest behind them.
Mechanically I am in complete agreement with you. The potential for rogues to jump the Cavalier is way too high in the current rendition of the rules.
However, flavor wise I do believe the sneak attacking rogues really would be the bane of a Cavalier's life. After all, the Cavalier is basically a knight in shining armor, going off to challenge his enemies in noble combat... then along comes the sneak rogue to ruin his day. It almost seems too perfect to change! :D
Remember that the cavalier gets a full BAB, d10 hit dice, and a host of other abilities, all on top of the challenge mechanic, which gives bonus damage dice. The drawback mechanic was an important part of balancing this feature. I need to get some playtest feedback on this feature though, as this is one of the more powerful aspects of the class.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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First of all... *GREAT* illustrations -- I think Wayne has "nailed" it once again! For some reason he seems to do his best pieces for Paizo... :)
Secondly, the only thing that bothered me (after a quick glance) was the Cavalier's 'Supreme Charge' ability -- why is the DC tied to BAB, rather than 10 + 1/2 x level plus STR or CON, or even CHA?
There are abilities that work out there that work off both formulas. We decided to go with the one in the document, but I am certainly open to debate...
The current one is better, generally speaking than the one that you suggest (unless you can get a Str above 30).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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However, flavor wise I do believe the sneak attacking rogues really would be the bane of a Cavalier's life. After all, the Cavalier is basically a knight in shining armor, going off to challenge his enemies in noble combat... then along comes the sneak rogue to ruin his day. It almost seems too perfect to change! :D
I see what you're saying, but I'd hate to make something unfun just because it's flavorful. I mean, if you have a player that's a Cav and he issues a challenge to BBEG, BBEG's Rogue minion(s) can just camp out on the Cav and he doesn't have any defense against it (you know, except for his hopefully high AC). The rest of the party quickly becomes all about protecting the Cav from Rogues, or healing him or whatever, instead of taking down the BBEG.
It is kinda cool to say that the Rogues everywhere are just waiting to jump the first Cav that comes along, but I see this making Cav player's very hesitant to use a major class ability for fear that a Rogue is going to take them down.
Just reading it, it sounds to me like the intent was to give a bonus to anyone attacking the Cav while he's challenging. I don't think the intent was to turn the Cav's banner into a "Free Sneak Attacks Here!" sign. (At least, I hope that wasn't the intent.)
-Skeld
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Remember that the cavalier gets a full BAB, d10 hit dice, and a host of other abilities, all on top of the challenge mechanic, which gives bonus damage dice. The drawback mechanic was an important part of balancing this feature. I need to get some playtest feedback on this feature though, as this is one of the more powerful aspects of the class.
You're absolutely right. I'll hold further comments until I've had a chance to try this out.
-Skeld
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Focus, not loving that the word is already one that has a definition in the game. I think I'd prefer something like Cynosure or Discipline (or something wordier, like Disciplines of Faith), that doesn't have a meaning already.
I can't think off the top of my head what "Focus" is tied to already. Cynosure seems like an obscure word and Discipline IS tied to psionics.
I don't mean to nit-pick, and I mean no offense as typing is hard to produce tone of voice and such. I am merely asking a question and pointing out a point. I think Focus is fine.
The cavalier's challenge seems a little wonky. If the cavalier issues his challenge, and then a rogue gets involved with the cav in melee, the cavalier is dead. (ie - sneak attack, sneak attack, sneak attack) The challenge lasts until the target is dead or unconscious. You can't turn it off or redirect it. Seems like something I wouldn't use often...
I have to agree here as well. I thought maybe a flat -2 penalty to AC would be fine. This wouldn't penalize Dex based Cav's and would still effect all of those Dex 10 Cav's as well. A flat-footed penalty is only going to effect those Cav's with a high dex and dodge feats, which as is now, isn't the case. So, the receive no penalty for challenging, until along comes a rogue.
Also as a side note, I just started a Steam Punk campaign last week(character creation) and the opening scene I was going to have a villain come to the heroes small town and demand supplies for the war front. He was going to be riding in with an empire banner and armed soldiers. Making him a Cavalier seems all too perfect for this. I was thinking Lion or Dragon as he is devoted to an tyrant emperor.
Cannot wait to playtest.
What land is the oracle from, and what's her foci? Knowledge not yet released perhaps?
Anyway, I adore the cavalier and his abilities, I'll playtest him over this weekend personally.
As for the oracle, I'm really impressed by the breadth of options as part of the foci.
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I think that was the intent, and the easies solution would be to challenge the rogue. Very ¨Come here and face me in true combat you scoundrel¨ kind of thing (which I like)
I know I said I wouldn't comment again until I've played it, but I've failed my Will save: You only get one Challenge per combat. For BBEG and Rogue minion, if you use your Challenge on the minion (because he's most dangerous to you persoanlly), you can't challenge the BBEG (and doesn't seem very Cavalierish to be so selfish). Challenge the BBEG and the Rogue will sneak attack such that you hope your d10's of HP last long enough.
It's an interesting choice it forces upon players. I'm still going to try it to see if I'm convinced that letting the Rogue have his way with you is a good idea.
-Skeld
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I can't think off the top of my head what "Focus" is tied to already. Cynosure seems like an obscure word and Discipline IS tied to psionics.
Focus is used to refer to material components that are not expended during the casting of a spell (p 213), and the holy symbol of a cleric is an example of a Divine Focus.
When I first read the paragraph, I was expecting it to be about the divine focus that the Oracle would need to cast spells, and, indeed, Jason has already begun talking about what sort of 'holy symbol' an Oracle would use as a Divine Focus (mentioning some sort of specially consecrated bone for a Bones Focused Oracle).
So, my Focus is Bones, and the focus I use to cast Bone Focus spells is a divine focus made of bone... As something that's likely to crop up *in the same sentence,* I'm sure a different word could be found.
The cavalier's challenge seems a little wonky. If the cavalier issues his challenge, and then a rogue gets involved with the cav in melee, the cavalier is dead. (ie - sneak attack, sneak attack, sneak attack) The challenge lasts until the target is dead or unconscious. You can't turn it off or redirect it. Seems like something I wouldn't use often...
Probably not bad for a party member because often enough you have single monster encounters or there are obviously no rogues around. It makes Cavalier BBEGs unlikely though.
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One thing about the Foci of Bones is that it is possible to make a 20th level Oracle that has nothing to with controlling/creating Undead,Except for those pesky Foci spells of animate dead, create undead and create greater undead, which the Oracle specifically cannot swap out.
Yeah, I noticed that you could cherry pick Revelations, but that still doesn't make the Bones Oracle fit the Pharasman undead-hating ideal.
It's a case of flavor text forbidding a class from using class abilities that it is specifically granted (either via the Death Domain, for a Cleric, or the Bones Focus, for an Oracle). Quirky.
As Jason said, they are getting their power from more than one deity, even if you character happens to favor Pharasma. He doesn't get to pick what the gods give him. Maybe Pharasma wouldn't give him the animate/create undead spells, but I am pretty sure other deities interested in the Bone focus would. It is up to the character to decide if he wants to/should use them or not. Since the Oracle is gifted his abilities by the gods, plural, I don't think he really gets much say in the matter.
Obviously letting the character choose the revelations is important as it adds flexibility to the class and allows the player to customize them to a concept. However, I don't picture the oracle getting into a huddle with the deities and going "You know, I don't really want x revelation, can you give me this one instead?" I see it more as a decision by the gods that the Oracle has to live with.
The cavalier's challenge seems a little wonky. If the cavalier issues his challenge, and then a rogue gets involved with the cav in melee, the cavalier is dead. (ie - sneak attack, sneak attack, sneak attack) The challenge lasts until the target is dead or unconscious. You can't turn it off or redirect it. Seems like something I wouldn't use often...Probably not bad for a party member because often enough you have single monster encounters or there are obviously no rogues around. It makes Cavalier BBEGs unlikely though.
Not really. Cavalier BBEGs just have to remember to challenge the rogue first. :-)
Also, rogues tend to end up in flank pretty quickly anyway, if the opponent is tough enough to bother with it.
Probably not bad for a party member because often enough you have single monster encounters or there are obviously no rogues around. It makes Cavalier BBEGs unlikely though.Oh, the rogue is there. You just didn't see him. :)
Quite possibly. But to be honest my rogue can generally get into flanking pretty quite so maybe the whole issue isn't a huge deal. I don't really see it as a huge problem for PC cavaliers anyhow.
Favorite so far: FOCI. Let's say it together, FOCI.
Interesting classes:
1st Thought, Cavalier is basically a Pally with different mechanism. Instead of Smite mechanic he has that Challenge.
Smite enhances damage no penalty, but Challenge has the Cavalieer ganked by rogues.
The other abilities are nice, but I don't see how the +1d6 to target is always worth the flatfooted danger.
At least that is every attack: maybe a Cavalier should dual wield? Then he could kill target faster and be flatfooted less often.
Loses Shield bonus at low levels though, but later can afford animated shield possibly.
Oracles are Spontaneous Divine casters like Favored Soul in Complete Divine? Except only uses Cha like Sorceror.
Each oracle cursed? Strange idea, but better than Wu jen's in Complete Arcane.
What does, "You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision" mean?
So basically, you see up to 30 ft similar to darkvision (black and white)?
Interesting total Deaf, but not total blind is a choice.
Haunted: Does this mean you can only retrieve stuff as a move action minimum?
Foci powers:
Battlecry kinda imirates Inspire Courage.
Iron Skin is amazing (since Stoneskin usually has a material cost and you get this for free).
Skill at arms: making a Gish caster I guess.
Bleeding wounds is useful.
Raise the dead is good but limited (since only 2 ever at level 10 stops growing in usage).
Soul Siphone is good: negative levels rock.
Firestorm is pretty cool except never grows past 1/day.
Molten Skin/Acid Skin/Icy Skin can grant immunity is awesome.
Blizzard doesn't say 1/day so at will?
Thunderburst is similar to Firestorm but multuple uses. Why is Firestorm weaker in useage?