Director of Games
|
Welcome to the playtest of the Advanced Player's Guide.
Over the next few months, we will be looking at all of the base classes, starting with the Cavalier and Oracle in round 1, the Summoner and the Witch in round 2, and finally the Alchemist and the Inquisitor in round 3. We will be releasing two classes each week, via free pdf files that can be downloaded here at paizo.com. These forums will remain open until January 31st, 2010.
This board is for announcements and general discussion about the Advanced Player's Guide. Feedback on the classes themselves should go in the messageboards dedicated to those classes.
I look forward to seeing all of your feedback and opinions. Now get your dice out and play!
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Let the games begin
Let the games begin
Well, not for us folks behind a firewall at work. Zip files are a no-no. :-)
Is it me or does the sentence "Once per combat, a cavalier can
challenge a foe to combat." sound strange.
I know it is a nitpick, but I think once per encounter might sound better.
One other thing that I noticed was that with a little asian flavoring, the cavalier might serve as a passable samurai (especially a more courtly version). I am not sure about the mounted combat bit, but it might still work.
Is it me or does the sentence "Once per combat, a cavalier can
challenge a foe to combat." sound strange.I know it is a nitpick, but I think once per encounter might sound better.
One other thing that I noticed was that with a little asian flavoring, the cavalier might serve as a passable samurai (especially a more courtly version). I am not sure about the mounted combat bit, but it might still work.
I'm actually a fan of Combat instead of encounter. Encounter can be hard to quantify where combat typically runs until players are no longer acting in initiative order.
A good example of this might be a fight where the party has to battle through some minor enemies only to have the Big Bad show up immediately after. I wouldn't want the Cavalier to get jerked around because the GM considers it 'one encounter'.
Personally I'd consider it from rolling initiative up until players stop acting on a round/round basis. Obviously YMMV between different GMs, but I think combat is a good basis.
I'm actually a fan of Combat instead of encounter. Encounter can be hard to quantify where combat typically runs until players are no longer acting in initiative order.Is it me or does the sentence "Once per combat, a cavalier can
challenge a foe to combat." sound strange.
The point is that challenging someone to combat once a combat is one use of the word "combat" too many. :-)
As these classes are no longer going for the backwards compatibility with these classes, why does the oracle use Cha for spellcasting? It annoys me no end that almost all spontaneous casters use charisma. It doesn't fit in with the fluff given, unlike Sorcerer. Divine casters use WIS, arcane INT but all spontaneous use CHA? Sorry think a bit out of the box; to me rather than having the willpower/strength of personality that Sorcerers have to battle the power within them Wisdom.. being sensitive and open to many different powers.. makes more sense.
As these classes are no longer going for the backwards compatibility with these classes, why does the oracle use Cha for spellcasting? It annoys me no end that almost all spontaneous casters use charisma. It doesn't fit in with the fluff given, unlike Sorcerer. Divine casters use WIS, arcane INT but all spontaneous use CHA? Sorry think a bit out of the box; to me rather than having the willpower/strength of personality that Sorcerers have to battle the power within them Wisdom.. being sensitive and open to many different powers.. makes more sense.
Given that these are NEW classes what exactly do they have to be backwards compatible with? I think charisma fits the fluff just fine. But then again I have a preference for charismatic characters.
|
Director of Games
|
As these classes are no longer going for the backwards compatibility with these classes, why does the oracle use Cha for spellcasting? It annoys me no end that almost all spontaneous casters use charisma. It doesn't fit in with the fluff given, unlike Sorcerer. Divine casters use WIS, arcane INT but all spontaneous use CHA? Sorry think a bit out of the box; to me rather than having the willpower/strength of personality that Sorcerers have to battle the power within them Wisdom.. being sensitive and open to many different powers.. makes more sense.
Truth be told, I went back and forth on this issue myself. In the end, I decided it was better to have the class based on a different stat than the cleric (for the sake of diversity in divine casters, and to prevent a bit of stat stacking), but that left me with Int and Cha...
Int did not make much sense and Cha has always been used as a force of will and strength of spirit stat, making it a good fit for the oracle's flavor.
Thoughts.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
Truth be told, I went back and forth on this issue myself. In the end, I decided it was better to have the class based on a different stat than the cleric (for the sake of diversity in divine casters, and to prevent a bit of stat stacking), but that left me with Int and Cha...
Int did not make much sense and Cha has always been used as a force of will and strength of spirit stat, making it a good fit for the oracle's flavor.
Thoughts.
I was wondering why that choice was made too but I understand why it was done. Overall, I'm fine with it.
I'm down with Cha. It makes sense to me.
Anyway, thanks for opening up these classes. I will be trying out Krzysztof the Cavalier in an upcoming session!
As a general, I think Charisma works best. It's something that's been used for spontaneous spell casters for a while, and does a decent job of capturing the 'force of will' aspect of spontaneous casters Vs. prepared casters.
Despite minor complications, you could have the stat based on the selected Foci. Something like Stone could be related to STR while Wind could be related to Dex. Would lead to some very 'out there' builds for Oracles...
Just a random thought!
Is it me or does the sentence "Once per combat, a cavalier can
challenge a foe to combat." sound strange.I know it is a nitpick, but I think once per encounter might sound better.
Once per combat, the cavalier may make a Challenge to a foe.
fix'd
More nit-picking:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Cavaliers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except tower shields).
while...
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
So they are the same thing. Why not just copy and paste the exact same verbiage and be consistent? Saying the same words in a different order makes it look like its different.
And yes, I know, pretty nit-picky, but its this sort of little thing that bugs me lol
|
Director of Games
|
More nit-picking:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Cavaliers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except tower shields).while...
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).So they are the same thing. Why not just copy and paste the exact same verbiage and be consistent? Saying the same words in a different order makes it look like its different.
And yes, I know, pretty nit-picky, but its this sort of little thing that bugs me lol
True... and being nit-picky during a playtest is ok. I will look at the language.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
And yes, I know, pretty nit-picky, but its this sort of little thing that bugs me lol
Stop nitpicking this release and get back to nitpicking the google docs! ;)
I am still down with CHA, I get the strength of will with sorcerers, it fits their fluff. Also the split between Int for Wiz (it is all about learning and books) and Cha for Sor (it is all about bringing into control the powers within)makes sense. Why does there have to be different attributes, apart from tradition and a sense of completeness/ spreading the prime stat love!
The Oracle is not 'battling' with the gods to get this power, from the little fluff that is given. He needs to be open and sensitive to many different deities, Wis makes more sense.
I know this is a loosing battle for me but divine casters using Cha has never made sense to me... except the Null Priest (if that was the name) and then they were not exactly divine!
EDIT: still the classes look good so far :)
I agree that Wisdom would make more sense for the Oracle.
I have to agree with the 'Wisdom makes more sense' crowd. And to me Cha has never been self will, if it was, we wouldn't base our will saves off Wis. Cha is all about force of personality, not force of self will. The oracle isn't talking the world into obeying it, nor talking the gods into giving it some power, it's manifesting divine will through it's abilities, and wisdom is the proper channel for that, harnessing the divine power it has been blessed with and harmonizing it with it's precepts.
I've always seen a sorcerer as much using his force of personality on the magic than anything else, at least that's how I interpret them using charisma (although I know it's more for game balance than anything else). By the same token, I've always seen the Bard as sort of flim-flamming magic into doing what he wants, fooling it into doing his biding, and so Charisma is a great stat for him to use.
The oracle though (and yes, I still hate the name) seems to me to be more along the lines of a cleric or druid, still channeling divine will and needing to use his wisdom and will to direct that divine power.
Oracle Clarification needed.
Armor of Bones (Su): You can conjure armor made of bones that grants you a +2 armor bonus. At 7th level, and every four levels hereafter, this bonus increases by +2. At 13th level, this armor grants you DR 5/bludgeoning. You can use this armor for a number of minutes per day equal to your oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1 minute increments.
Does Armor of Bones stack with worn armor? If it does, it needs to specify it stacks with worn armor, or it needs to have a bonus type (such as sacred/profane). I don't think it's all that overpowered considering the duration to let it stack with worn armor, and it gives a cool image as bones grow out of your body and over your armor, clicking and interlocking.
If it doesn't stack, I'd up the duration to 10 minutes per level instead, with the thought this is the person's primary defense ability, and they won't be using worn armor a lot. That would make for a very good tumble artist as this stuff wouldn't have ACP.
armor bonus don't stack if I am not mistaken
And another clarification...
Bleeding Wounds (Su): Whenever a creature takes damage from one of your spells or effects that causes negative energy damage (such as inflict light wounds or channel negative energy), it begins to bleed, taking 1 point of damage each round. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, this damage increases by 1. This bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or any effect that heals damage.
The oracle can get inflict light wounds, but short of multiclassing, they cannot channel negative energy. Normally, class abilities don't reference abilities from other classes. Was this an artifact left over from an earlier version of the oracle that could channel energy? Or did the channel energy ability get left off the playtest doc? Or is this just a strange reference to a power a straight oracle shouldn't have?
armor bonus don't stack if I am not mistaken
They do if they are of different 'types'. There is no specified type on the power, but if it doesn't stack, it's kind of a worthless ability considering the duration. That's why I asked the question. Remember, this is a playtest, not an errata thing. If it was worded as it is in the final version, I'd say it doesn't stack and be done. Since this is a playtest, I'm asking if that was the intention (making it one of the few powers in Bones that's pretty unwanted) or if there was a different intention.
guys no offense but the first post does say
"Feedback on the classes themselves should go in the messageboards dedicated to those classes"
if so why are we discussing these classes here ?
Gah, thanks, got the threads confused (had both open)
Total minor typo, page 9 - "An oracle’s selection of spells is extremely limited. An
oracle begins splay knowing four..."
|
It's really a pickle we're in isn't it? I agree that Intelligence doesn't fit the oracle at all, but we get either three divine casters with the same stat, or we get three spontaneous casters with the same stat. I know we're supposed to look at the merits of each class on its own, but if too many classes run off the same stat, each of them risks becoming less distinct. I speculate that the Alchemist will be an Intelligence class, but if the Summoner also runs off Charisma (which would make sense, being in command of creatures), The the Oracle also being off Charisma might make one class too many.
Charisma fits for me as an oracle is someone who always seems to have such a large force of personalty
Truth be told, I went back and forth on this issue myself. In the end, I decided it was better to have the class based on a different stat than the cleric (for the sake of diversity in divine casters, and to prevent a bit of stat stacking), but that left me with Int and Cha...
Int did not make much sense and Cha has always been used as a force of will and strength of spirit stat, making it a good fit for the oracle's flavor.
Thoughts.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
When it was mentioned that the Oracle would be using Charisma instead of Wisdom, I had a bit of a "knee jerk" reaction, because I think most of us have been conditioned to think Divine=Wisdom.
But as I have thought about it, I think Cha is a better choice....for the same reason it suites Sorcerers.
The very terms "charisma/charismatic" became important technical terms in the academic study of religion to distinguish leadership that was not clerical or a part of the normal hierarchy.
Truth be told... (snip) Thoughts.
Jason Bulmahn
I'd strongly vote for CHA - not so much because it is the most logical for this class (though it is a strong contender) - but because CHA could use a bit more representation as a vital stat across the board, in my opinion. It also makes for some interesting multi-class combos... I'm tempted to try a Sorcerous Oracle to see how it plays. :)
Best regards to you and the team - keep up the great work!
armor bonus don't stack if I am not mistakenThey do if they are of different 'types'. There is no specified type on the power, but if it doesn't stack, it's kind of a worthless ability considering the duration.
Actually "armor" is a type for bonuses to AC.
So, can we complain about the names yet? ;)
Honestly, here's how I look at mental stats: Arcane uses either INT or CHA, Divine uses either WIS or CHA. Barring the Wilder, Psionics uses either INT or WIS (which is one of the reasons I don't use the Wilder - I like symmetry).
First impression - two more human iconics. Much as I love WAR's stuff, we still don't have an iconic half-elf or half-orc. Perhaps Seltiel counts as the iconic half-elf, but he's a PrC Iconic, and they don't really count in my book as much as a base class iconic does. Are we actually going to see a half-orc by WAR in the iconics line? I don't even really like half-orcs that much and I'm starting to kind of feel the lack. One thing I actually have to give credit to WotC for in 3.5, each race had at least one iconic. I get that humans are kind of the "dominant" race in every setting, but some more diversification would be nice.
Now I should actually read the classes, rather than looking at the pretty art...
The Oracle could well be a Half-Elf:
You can't see her ears, but she has quite lovely large, almond-shaped eyes (or that could just be the anime)
Summoner: Halfling could be cool for the Chelish/Diabolist angle
Witch: Half-Orc could be good here, or Gnome if it plays up a Fey aspect/option.
Alchemist: One of the 'left behind' psycho Elves (like Merisiel) would be perfect. Or Human. Maybe Dwarf.
Inquisitor: Either Human or Half-Orc here.
It's really a pickle we're in isn't it? I agree that Intelligence doesn't fit the oracle at all, but we get either three divine casters with the same stat, or we get three spontaneous casters with the same stat. I know we're supposed to look at the merits of each class on its own, but if too many classes run off the same stat, each of them risks becoming less distinct. I speculate that the Alchemist will be an Intelligence class, but if the Summoner also runs off Charisma (which would make sense, being in command of creatures), The the Oracle also being off Charisma might make one class too many.
There isn't always one score that fits better than all the others. I would consider according 2 relevant scores equal weight and averaging them. Round down for odd totals, I suppose. Including combinations creates novelty, which means more distinctive options for various classes, and acknowledges the complexity inherent in situations like this. With INT WIS CHA, you've got the three of them individually plus 3 possible combinations. Since all ability scores use the same modifier schedule, there is no problem with a modifier for a synthetic score.
I wouldn't average stats, that makes it more complicated and adds to the 'stat glut' for a class.
However, I could see changing the stat based on the Foci/Mystery (they are talking about changing it to Mystery instead of Focus, which I heartily approve of, now if I could just talk them into changing Oracle to Avatar or Disciple) ;).
So, say, for a Combat Oracle, CON might be their controlling stat, or possibly Strength. A Bone Oracle might be Charisma. An elemental might be Wisdom.
The Oracle could well be a Half-Elf:
You can't see her ears, but she has quite lovely large, almond-shaped eyes (or that could just be the anime)Summoner: Halfling could be cool for the Chelish/Diabolist angle
Witch: Half-Orc could be good here, or Gnome if it plays up a Fey aspect/option.
Alchemist: One of the 'left behind' psycho Elves (like Merisiel) would be perfect. Or Human. Maybe Dwarf.
Inquisitor: Either Human or Half-Orc here.
The Oracle was a grandmotherly old women who smoked and baked cookies... oh wait... not the matrix. Sorry! :)
Is it me or does the sentence "Once per combat, a cavalier can
challenge a foe to combat." sound strange.I know it is a nitpick, but I think once per encounter might sound better.
Once per combat, the cavalier may make a Challenge to a foe.
fix'd
That does fix the grip I had with the number of times combat was used. Still, I do like the idea of a Cavalier starting a fight by challenging someone. Of course, that seems to be in the spirit of the ability regardless of the wording.
|
Now, I know that Charisma is not all about looking fit and trim and being "hot" and everything, but it did strike me as funny that I could have a physically ROTTING character who would be very well suited to have an 18 or higher Chrisma.
Picture Robert the Bruce the Elder in Braveheart. Not too charismatic, in my humble opinion.
Picture Robert the Bruce the Elder in Braveheart. Not too charismatic, in my humble opinion.
Really? That's exactly the example I thought of to illustrate a hideous, rotting, high-Charisma character.
King Baldwin (Edward Norton) in Kingdom of Heaven is a good second place.
It's either the inquisitor or summoner, I hope its the inquisitor! A Van Helsing half-orc is a very compelling character, and I just frankly want a human summoner, for some reason, it just seems the better choice.
|
|
As these classes are no longer going for the backwards compatibility with these classes, why does the oracle use Cha for spellcasting? It annoys me no end that almost all spontaneous casters use charisma. It doesn't fit in with the fluff given, unlike Sorcerer. Divine casters use WIS, arcane INT but all spontaneous use CHA? Sorry think a bit out of the box; to me rather than having the willpower/strength of personality that Sorcerers have to battle the power within them Wisdom.. being sensitive and open to many different powers.. makes more sense.
And personally I was pissed that the paladin has charisma based casting but that he memorizes his spells, so we are on opposite sides of the coin as I think Cha SHOULD be the spontaneous casters stat.
|
|
Truth be told... (snip) Thoughts.
Jason Bulmahn
I'd strongly vote for CHA - not so much because it is the most logical for this class (though it is a strong contender) - but because CHA could use a bit more representation as a vital stat across the board, in my opinion. It also makes for some interesting multi-class combos... I'm tempted to try a Sorcerous Oracle to see how it plays. :)
Best regards to you and the team - keep up the great work!
One of the characters in my RotR game is a sorcerer4/oracle 2 now, we play our first session tomorrow.
