Bestiary, Rock Throwing, Giants, Errata

[Tom Baumbach]

[i wrote:

Bestiary[/i] page 303, Rock Throwing]... Damage from a thrown rock is generally twice the creature's base slam damage plus 1½ its Strength bonus.

All giants' rock throwing damage is equal to its base slam damage plus 1½ its Strength bonus. As giants are the most common rock throwers, I must ask: are their stat blocks in error regarding thrown rock damage?

I would lean toward "yes," since that puts them somewhat in line with 3.5 giants' thrown rock damage.

[hogarth]

And just to confuse things, a treant's rock throwing damage is its slam damage + 1x Str bonus. :-)

[Fergie]

Is there anything about rock throwing that I am missing? It seems really weak. The chance to hit is very small, and damage is weak even at (2Xslam + StrX1.5) Also, rock throwing seems to be limited to a single attack each round.

How about only requiring the thrower hit an opponents square? Or make it a touch attack or something... Anything to make it worth using? Anything to make it better then a composite bow?

Also- Rock Catching... How often does that come up? Has anyone EVER in their history of playing been in a situation where this ability has been used?

Oh yeah, and give halflings rock throwing as well.

[raidou]

Fergie wrote:

Is there anything about rock throwing that I am missing? It seems really weak. The chance to hit is very small, and damage is weak even at (2Xslam + StrX1.5) Also, rock throwing seems to be limited to a single attack each round.

How about only requiring the thrower hit an opponents square? Or make it a touch attack or something... Anything to make it worth using? Anything to make it better then a composite bow?

Also- Rock Catching... How often does that come up? Has anyone EVER in their history of playing been in a situation where this ability has been used?

Oh yeah, and give halflings rock throwing as well.

It should definitely be (2xSlam + STRx1.5) just to keep these guys relevant. I'd also file off the "Martial Weapon Proficiency" feat and give all giants Familiarity with their iconic weapons as just a part of their racial makeup. In place of that feat, give giants "Vital Strike" and that rock damage will start to climb to more appropriate levels.

[hogarth]

Fergie wrote:

Is there anything about rock throwing that I am missing? It seems really weak. The chance to hit is very small, and damage is weak even at (2Xslam + StrX1.5) Also, rock throwing seems to be limited to a single attack each round.

The only up-side is the long range, I think.

[Tom Baumbach]

Fergie wrote:

Also, rock throwing seems to be limited to a single attack each round.

Well there's definitely something funky going on; the stone giant has two rock throwing attacks, but none of the other giants with high base attack do.

[Mistwalker]

Tom Baumbach wrote:

Fergie wrote:

Also, rock throwing seems to be limited to a single attack each round.

Well there's definitely something funky going on; the stone giant has two rock throwing attacks, but none of the other giants with high base attack do.

The Stone Giant also has the Quick Draw feat, which is probably why they have two rock throwing attacks.

[Fergie]

Things do seem a little odd with some of the giants feats/abilities, etc.

Slam damage is equal to a creature one size category larger. I think this is badly needed, as a giant without a two handed weapon is a chump.

All but Storm giants are proficient with only a single martial weapon? That seems really odd, especially when the weapon they took a feat to use is something lackluster like a greatclub. In my view of the game, all of the giant societies were fairly warlike (except harp playing cloud giants) and should have the "Militant" ability that Storm giants get.

Ogres are lacking a slam attack, and have not taken a proficiency in order to use the greatclub they are listed with.

Finally, I think storm giants are really stretching the definition of humanoid to the breaking point. The swim speed and water breathing I can get around, but the lightning (and electrical immunity) and the constant freedom of moo... And players are going to use Knowledge (Local) to figure all that out? I don't know, I liked the giants-as-creatures-of-nature interpretation of 3-3.5. I can't help but feel that the giants-as-bigger-humanoids in Pathfinder has not been fully thought out. But let's make it work...

I propose:
All giants get "Militant"
All giants get a slam attack as a creature one size category larger.
Rock throwing - the giant need only hit an opponents touch armor class. Damage= Slam X2 + Str X1.5) Throwing a rock is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

[Fergie]

Just noticed that the cyclops also lacks proficiency in the greataxe he is swinging.

I guess it would be best to have a little blurb in the description of humanoids that states that they are proficient with whatever weapons they are listed with, similar to the way armor proficiency is handled.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Mistwalker]

Fergie wrote:

Just noticed that the cyclops also lacks proficiency in the greataxe he is swinging.

I guess it would be best to have a little blurb in the description of humanoids that states that they are proficient with whatever weapons they are listed with, similar to the way armor proficiency is handled.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

If you look in the back of the book, under types and such, it states that creatures are proficient with the weapons listed in their entry.

I had the same reaction until I read the back parts of the book.

[Fergie]

It should say that, but under humanoids, it just says "unless otherwise noted" when it comes to weapon proficiency.

The true giants (hill, fire, frost, cloud) each have a specific martial weapon proficiency feat listed, and storm giants get "Militant" so they can use all martial weapons.

Ogres and Cyclops are shown with martial weapons, but don't have any related feats. Also, neither has a slam attack.

I think the simple solution would be to include that the giant subtype gets martial weapons proficiency, or at least a note about being proficient with listed items. I would then give the true giants a different feat.

[Globetrotter]

I am guessing this was never errata'd?

Can you throw multiple rocks per round? I thought you had to have the quick draw feat to do that.

Are giants exempt?

[Darkon Slayer]

In 3.5 giants had martial proficiency. I wonder why it was not just added to the giant sub type.

[eris]

I can understand why they don't all get "militant" because why would a hill giant use a club when it now has a menu of choices? Instead, give the true giants martial weapon prof as a bonus feat for the weapons they're traditionally associated with.

I also like the idea of rock throwing being a ranged touch attack. When a four-door van is coming your way your only hope is to dodge. You can indeed be crushed inside your plate mail. Think of it like falling damage only part of the earth is flying at you instead of you falling to it.

[toastedamphibian]

eris wrote:

I can understand why they don't all get "militant" because why would a hill giant use a club when it now has a menu of choices? Instead, give the true giants martial weapon prof as a bonus feat for the weapons they're traditionally associated with.

I also like the idea of rock throwing being a ranged touch attack. When a four-door van is coming your way your only hope is to dodge. You can indeed be crushed inside your plate mail. Think of it like falling damage only part of the earth is flying at you instead of you falling to it.

Make it a reflex save at that point. Large giant throws a rock at a colossal dragon: It's scales where ineffective! It seems silly that being hit with a large sized rock should use different rules for being hit with a colossal javelin or sling stone.

Weapon Familiarity: X-Giants are proficient with Y.