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You're right, though, when you set aside the situationally-OP domains that were rarely abused to the degree that theory would lead you to believe, you have almost no 3.5 cleric domains that are as good as PF Liberation.
When you are disagreeing with every single thing I've said, starting your sentence with 'you're right, though' seems like you have no idea what conversation you are in.
And Liberation is junk. It's the same flavor of junk that any 3.X Cleric could get via Travel, and go over to the CharOp CoDzilla guides and tally up how many optimizers where wetting themselves over the Travel Domain. They were all about using Planning and Undeath to score bonus feats for their DMM/Persist Clerics. Travel was an afterthought, and Trickery was only loved for granting access to Polymorph Any Object, not for adding three class skills to a 2+Int class that used Int as a dump stat and required decent ranks in Knowledge (religion) and Concentration to do it's job.
It's like you've never even played a Cleric under 3.5, and are just reflexively disagreeing that the Pathfinder Cleric got nerfed out of sheer orneriness.
How about lending we get back to talking about the topic, which is Channel Energy (which is alternately too good and crap, depending on situation, making it poorly constructed, IMO)?
If you feel that we need a thread to discuss how terribly overpowered Pathfinder Clerics are because of their supercharged Domains (which are weaker than 3.5 Domains!), go ahead and make one.
I have yet to zap any opponents with negative energy to damage them. Of course, the fact that we are in a city filled with undead could be the cause of that.
So far I've used it to power Command Undead once and to heal the mindless undead I'm using as meatshields.
Of course, sending them down a trapped stairway might not have been easy on them, but it was fun for me.
Which turns it into "Kill the Cleric. Kill the Wizard." then deal with everyone else.
-Weylin
Actually, that's pretty standard for our group.
"Take out the sorc!"
"Geek the mage!"
"Nuke the medic!"
Allowing AOO without a channeling feat to prevent it, and allowing resitance or protection spells to protect against positivie or negative energy all seem reasonable.
I also agree on various statements in regards to the DM being a story teller, and providing the appropriate hints, and/or potential resources that may be available if the right questions or actions are taken, to help the characters.
In regards to movies or books, the director or author is the GM, and makes sures the characters survive to tell a story.
I'll be honest, I don't play that way as GM. I'm not the Author, myself and my players are all contributors to the story, elements of the adventure or the film or whatnot.
They are the would-be-heroes, and I'm the rest of the world.
Not all would-be-heroes triumph, not all adventurers win or survive.
I play the other side, and the allies and the neutrals, while they try to do what they do.
Honestly I don't think I'd enjoy playing in a game where the GM holds back tactically because he doesn't want to be a 'killer GM'
Appropriate power levels is a good thing, but playing softball is another entirely. Pitch it right or I'll find a new pitcher, underhand pitches are two easy ;)
EDIT: Looking back, that last paragraph seemed rather sexist and I appologize, it was only a metaphor, I'm well aware some women make excellent pitchers and very well might strike me out with their underarm throws. It was meant to illustrate a point, though perhaps T-Ball would have done so better.
I tend not to play "softball" and I have wiped entire parties in the past, but there are certain plot elements that are hard to recover from if everyone dies, or if key players die. I won't hand out free lunches, but if they work hard, sometimes a break or two is all that is needed. But I do see the value of rolling with the punches, I just may change the knock out blow to an alternate quest or some other challenge in the future. But if you do something completely stupid, then the rest is history ...
This is also a problem of resources. In any given encounter the PCs resources continually become more and more taxed (the PC cleric uses up his channels to heal the PCs from previous combats). Leaving the PC Cleric with maybe 3-4 channels left (if your cleric decided on a decent charisma score).
Meanwhile the Eeeevil CR 2 Cleric has not yet used a single channel (giving him 5-6 at a conservative estimate). That's pretty scary. Also it's not a problem limited to evil clerics. Evil wizards often have ALL their spells available for a fight. Evil fighters have ALL their hitpoints. Evil Druids still have ALL their spells and ALL their wild-shape.
(Mostly because they seem to sit around in a room waiting for someone to try and kick their head in).Now if you rule that perhaps the Eeevil Cleric has used his negative energy channels a few times that day (to heal his zombie minions, murder some pious prisoners he was keeping, or attempting to use a McGuffin that requires Channel Negative Energy to operate) suddenly he only has 2 or 3 left. Once the party gets whacked by one, they are sure to fall back and deal with him at range.
Was going to say something to that affect, but you stated it nicely. Bravo!
A party of 1st level characters isn't going to take a 3rd level cleric down in one round, especially after they've taken one blast already to tell them what they're up against. Second blast and you've a very good change of a TPK. Third blast and they're gone.
Richard
I disagree, first thing they should do is pull back and use ranged attacks while their own cleric channels positive energy to heal them. That slows down the damage. Plus, if a melee person can close with the cleric who's channeling and trip or overrun him, that will keep him from channeling. The big thing is, while a channel is nasty, you have to get people in the area of it. If you can only hit one person or maybe two with it while the others are shooting you with arrows or sling stones, you're toast. A single 3rd level cleric should be a tough, but not insurmountable, opponent.
He should have an AC around 18 (maybe 12 touch) or so, and only about 20 hps.
A first level fighter should be able to hit him about 35-45% of the time (Assume 16 str, +3, BAB +1, he needs a 14+ to hit, that's 35%). The mage should be using a ranged touch attack or magic missile to hit him (easy). Their cleric should be channeling energy into them (any cleric should take selective target first level to leave the cleric out). That's 1d6 healed to every partymember, cutting the enemy cleric's damage in half. And a rogue should be able to flank with the fighter and sneak attack and boost the fighter's to hit to nearly 50%.
Fighter : 50% * 1d6+3= 3hps per round, average
Wizard : Magic Missile : 3hps per round, average
Rogue : 40% * 2d6+2 : 4hps per round, average
Cleric : HealingSo they should be able to take him down in two rounds. 10x2. If they luck out, in one round. The mage should be outside the area of effect, his thing is get away and magic-missle/acid-splash the cleric. The teams's cleric should be close enough to channel to the fighter and himself. The rogue can either close and sneak attack...
If they're bunched there's a good chance of a TPK. The average damage of a channel from a lvl 3 cleric is 7/8 . That drops your average sorceror or wizard right off, and if the roll is high (say....12) you're dealing with an almost instant TPK.
It's really the only situation in which the channel energy power is THAT powerful... and if you make your save it's a bit better. Besides which, no decent DM would ever drop the party like that, so you did the right thing.The same could be said for spells like sleep when used on PC's at a low level.
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Shouldn't have min/maxed your Cleric then :)Or, in this case, you *have* to min/max to be able to use your class ability in the standard 4 man adventuring party.
It's just annoying that the power is 'too good' for an NPC, who can surround himself with undead and doesn't travel with a party of living allies, and total crap for a PC.
I disagree with the total crap for a PC bit but you are sooooo right with the first part. I had this problem too in my campaign and it bit me in the ar$e before I realised what was happening so despite what I said earlier I toned down another encounter with two Clerics and their pet ogre zombie. Hold Person is no longer the fear spell for low-mid level Clerics but the fact that they can channel is.
I think the problem is that as players and GMs it is a fairly new ability which is dangerous and experience isn't there yet to deal/cope with it, at least it is with me.
Death Ward stops it dead but that is a 4th level spell which low levels aren't going to fling about all the time. Perhaps a Cleric spell similar to the Resist Energy group could be used?
2nd Level Cleric spell ignore first 10 hps of damage, at 7th ignore 20 and 11th ignore 30hps?
Or my personal favorite: color spray. If the enemy wins initiative or the spellcasters aren't taken out, color spray and sleep are deadly to a low level party.
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In D&D the Cleric is the Medic, Commander, and Communications (to a point). Also, in gaming, a Medic can make someone go from 99% dead to full health in 6 seconds. In PF, more than one but less HP.Which turns it into "Kill the Cleric. Kill the Wizard." then deal with everyone else.
-Weylin
So, exactly what I said originally before you said no. :)
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A simple suggestion: there should be some game mechanic, an item or a spell, that resists the baneful effects of Channel Energy.
It could be an extension of the standard rules. Right now, the Pathfinder spell consecration provides living beings with a +3 sacred bonus to the saving throw against Channel Negative Energy. There might be a version that leaves the saving throw alone, but drops the damage by 1d6.
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I think your mixing things up.
I said that the Cleric got stuff taken away and nerfed, and I still think so. The few things it got are all circumstancial, and are not really benefits. I'm not a fan of many of the Domains, myself. However, I do not thing it is a huge deal and i am not crying over it. Again, I don't want to go into it here.
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No, I'm disagreeing that the PF cleric got nerfed without getting anything back, which is what was originally claimed. (Specifically: "I'd be fine as long as there is some compensation for taking it away. PF has done nothing but take away from the Cleric already, so give something back.")
Thanks for the quote, it helps to clarify why you are knee-jerk contradicting everything I post, since you've just indicated that you have gotten posters on the thread confused.
I'm not Beckett. Replying to me with disagreements with his verbiage might explain your frustration with my 'moving the goalposts.' Different person entirely, so his goalposts aren't necessarily in the same place as mine.
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We tried the "takes 1 full round with AoOs" house rule last monday. There were no evil clerics, just the party's cleric forced to wait while the channel energy happened.
And in 2 out of 3 cases this was no problem. In the third, the cleric got knocked over unconscious before his channel went off.
Knocked unconscious by an orc.
Which left me thinking - if the orc had been at all injured, it might have chosen not to hit the cleric after all. In fact, with this house rule, as soon as a Cleric starts channeling positive energy there might be a mad scramble by PCs and enemies to get within the 30' and let him do it.
An eccentric, but rather pleasing scenario, IMVHO.
Richard
They were all about using Planning and Undeath to score bonus feats for their DMM/Persist Clerics.Undeath and its stone-cold terrible spells? I recall CO board favorites being Travel, Time, Luck, Pride, Fate, Elf, and Planning, because they had good powers and good spells. Undeath wasn't popular because it was out of flavor for a lot of games and because its spells were pants. You can gesticulate wildly and mention the WotC CO boards in order to get cheap cheers from the local crowd but pretty much everyone there acknowledged that the best core domains were Travel and Luck.
And Liberation is junk. It's the same flavor of junk that any 3.X Cleric could get via Travel...Plus another great domain power on top of that, on top of a perfectly reasonable spell list. Junk indeed.
No, I'm disagreeing that the PF cleric got nerfed without getting anything back, which is what was originally claimed. (Specifically: "I'd be fine as long as there is some compensation for taking it away. PF has done nothing but take away from the Cleric already, so give something back.") You can shift the goalposts around all you like, though.It's like you've never even played a Cleric under 3.5, and are just reflexively disagreeing that the Pathfinder Cleric got nerfed out of sheer orneriness.
If you feel that we need a thread to discuss how terribly overpowered Pathfinder Clerics are because of their supercharged Domains (which are weaker than 3.5 Domains!), go ahead and make one.
Because of how powerful and possibly overpowered channel energy is the cleric could have a d6 hit points, no armor or weapons and still be very viable. Having his near complete list for offensive spells plus channel energy for most of his healing needs the class is very powerful. Is it still a cleric, well not to me. I think that is my biggest issue with the Pathfinder class called cleric, and that is that it really isn't a cleric anymore. It's a near pure caster with a spell list made for buffing and the ability to heal all day and night. Sure healing and buffing were things the cleric used to be able to do, but never to this level, never to the exclusion of ever being forced to rely on his armor and weapons to see him through. Other then for historic purposes there is no real balance reason to keep allowing the pathfinder cleric to have armor skills, weapons skills, or d8 hit points. Let me ask this if you take those away would you really not have one of the strongest classes still? I think you would. I still think without the armor, weapons, or hit die advantage the pathfinder cleric would still be just as strong as the wizard, maybe stronger.
Take away channel energy and it's silliness though and the class is much much weaker then it's 3.5 counter part. But throw that powerful ability in and very little would weaken the class.
You could consider having channel energy work as laying on hands (as the Paladin), if you are afraid it will be too powerful. Personally, I think it is better to just start designing adventures differently, so it doesn't become such a big issue.
Seriously, should the PCs be going up against several clerics of Evil God (tm) every session? Not in my book. Once in a while, sure...and it should be memorable (which it isn't at the moment...except for that once when the PC barbarian grappled an evil high priest to death, but that was memorable for other reasons that clerics being powerful).
Or give it a recharge time. After you use it, you have to wait 1d4+1 rounds before you can spam it again. Seems to keep the dragons in line.
Because of how powerful and possibly overpowered channel energy is the cleric could have a d6 hit points, no armor or weapons and still be very viable. Having his near complete list for offensive spells plus channel energy for most of his healing needs the class is very powerful. Is it still a cleric, well not to me. I think that is my biggest issue with the Pathfinder class called cleric, and that is that it really isn't a cleric anymore. It's a near...They were all about using Planning and Undeath to score bonus feats for their DMM/Persist Clerics.Undeath and its stone-cold terrible spells? I recall CO board favorites being Travel, Time, Luck, Pride, Fate, Elf, and Planning, because they had good powers and good spells. Undeath wasn't popular because it was out of flavor for a lot of games and because its spells were pants. You can gesticulate wildly and mention the WotC CO boards in order to get cheap cheers from the local crowd but pretty much everyone there acknowledged that the best core domains were Travel and Luck.
And Liberation is junk. It's the same flavor of junk that any 3.X Cleric could get via Travel...Plus another great domain power on top of that, on top of a perfectly reasonable spell list. Junk indeed.
No, I'm disagreeing that the PF cleric got nerfed without getting anything back, which is what was originally claimed. (Specifically: "I'd be fine as long as there is some compensation for taking it away. PF has done nothing but take away from the Cleric already, so give something back.") You can shift the goalposts around all you like, though.It's like you've never even played a Cleric under 3.5, and are just reflexively disagreeing that the Pathfinder Cleric got nerfed out of sheer orneriness.
If you feel that we need a thread to discuss how terribly overpowered Pathfinder Clerics are because of their supercharged Domains (which are weaker than 3.5 Domains!), go ahead and make one.
The 3.5 cleric was more powerful combat wise. He could out fight a fighter, even the pathfinder one or use spells. to do it. This one is no longer a good enough at melee to be a primary fighter. No matter whether its a negative or positive channeling cleric there are ways to get around it. For the first 3 levels it might be an issue, but at low levels everything seems to be an issue anyway. I would rather deal with channel energy than color spray or sleep.
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Or give it a recharge time. After you use it, you have to wait 1d4+1 rounds before you can spam it again. Seems to keep the dragons in line.
What if you could only use 1 form of Channeling per round or two?
So, a Cleric that channeled to heal allies would either have to harm undead or not channel next round (or use anther channeling feat, if they have one).
Another possibility would be to restrict it some rounds, but grant all Clerics Selective Channeling.
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This is a difficult encounter, and I'm pretty sure I know where it is from, because this is the exact scenario I ran into the first Pathfinder Society adventure Thorgrym was on.
The previous group that fought that at Gencon was a TPK. We were a bit more clever, 2 characters at range, a raging barbarian in her face, and the, um, off-tank ended up bull rushing her off the dock into the water.
Do you know how hard it is for a cleric to swim in full plate armor and cast spells? It was literally like shooting fish in a barrel. She drowned.
This is only particularly dangerous at low levels IMO, a little balanced towards the dark, evil clerics fighting low level PCs, not worried about hitting anyone else (unlike the PC cleric who does not want to constantly heal the enemies too).