The book says "a weapon" does this have to be the same weapon every time?
I looked around to see if this was previously answered and I didn't see a post asking this question.
No. Individual uses of this ability can be applied to different weapons or to different parts of a double weapon.
However, once activated you cannot move the celastial spirit(s) to another weapon, for the duration of this ability. Basically it works a lot like the magic weapon spell.
Ah, but that is one way it can be read. Where does it say you can use this ability on a different weapon?
This is an ability that is activated just one time and it lasts for a set duration, unchanged, based on how it was activated.
If an 8th level paladin decides to use it to make his greatsword a +1 Flaming greatsword for 8 minutes, then that is exactly what he'll get for the full 8 minutes. It can't be changed.
The Core Rulebook does specifically say that he cannot change the ability part way through the duration, say, to +1 Keen: "The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again."
So, it must be +1 Flaming until the 8 minutes ends. Next time he uses this ability, he can make it +1 Keen until the duration ends.
Now, can he decide partway through the duration to move the spirit from his greatsword to his crossbow? Well, it doesn't specifically say he can't change weapons, it only says he can't change the bonus or properties, so can he change weapons?
Nope.
That would be exacly the same as if a wizard cast Enlarge Person on the fighter, then a few rounds later, decides to move it from the fighter to the paladin.
You can't do that.
Once a target of a spell (or spell-like ability) is chosen and the spell or ability is activated, the target cannot be changed unless the ability specifically says so. This ability does not.
This is confirmed on page 214: "Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
No, it doesn't explicitly say you cannot redirect the effect to new targets, but it does say "Some spells allow..." - if every spell allowed redirection, then this paragraph would say so. And if you read the spells, you'll see that some of them do allow you to redirect the effect, and they specifically say so, which means that specific allowance to redirect to a new target is only allowed when the spell says so.
So, you can use your divine bond a certain number of times a day. Each time, you pick one weapon in your posession and decide what properties you want it to have. That weapon will have those properties until the duration ends. Next time you use this ability, you can select a different weapon and/or different properties for that entire duration.
And the cool thing, is that weapon doesn't even have to be masterworked. If you find yourself in a jam, you could just pull off your sash, call the spirit into it, grab a handful of rocks, and go David all over that evil giant xD
Given unarmed attacks status as light weapons you could even empower your fist with spiritual power.
Given unarmed attacks status as light weapons you could even empower your fist with spiritual power.Hmm. Monk/Paladin = Divine Bond + Smite + Flurry + increased damage.
Keep playing your Jedi: I'm bringing JetLi to the fight!
I would love to try that one out now that the multiclass restrictions of monks and paladins are gone.
Already had the idea for a Monk/Paladin after doing CotCT as a Paladin. One of the other PCs was a Monk. Once we got to dealing with Undead/Evil Outsiders/Evil Dragons, it was a bit ridiculous to use Aura of Justice and watch the Monk pummel things to death in a single round.
Already had the idea for a Monk/Paladin after doing CotCT as a Paladin. One of the other PCs was a Monk. Once we got to dealing with Undead/Evil Outsiders/Evil Dragons, it was a bit ridiculous to use Aura of Justice and watch the Monk pummel things to death in a single round.
If you do that, use the Aescetic Knight feat from the Complete Champion (I think that's it, or Complete Warrior, one or the other). Stacks your Monk and Paladin levels to determine unarmed damage and smite damage.
Ouch, that's kind of nasty.
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It's complete warriorAlready had the idea for a Monk/Paladin after doing CotCT as a Paladin. One of the other PCs was a Monk. Once we got to dealing with Undead/Evil Outsiders/Evil Dragons, it was a bit ridiculous to use Aura of Justice and watch the Monk pummel things to death in a single round.If you do that, use the Aescetic Knight feat from the Complete Champion (I think that's it, or Complete Warrior, one or the other). Stacks your Monk and Paladin levels to determine unarmed damage and smite damage.
Ouch, that's kind of nasty.
Actually, looking at the books, Aescetic Knight is from Complete Adventurer.
Actually, looking at the books, Aescetic Knight is from Complete Adventurer.It's complete warriorAlready had the idea for a Monk/Paladin after doing CotCT as a Paladin. One of the other PCs was a Monk. Once we got to dealing with Undead/Evil Outsiders/Evil Dragons, it was a bit ridiculous to use Aura of Justice and watch the Monk pummel things to death in a single round.If you do that, use the Aescetic Knight feat from the Complete Champion (I think that's it, or Complete Warrior, one or the other). Stacks your Monk and Paladin levels to determine unarmed damage and smite damage.
Ouch, that's kind of nasty.
*facepalm* Your right, Complete Adventurer. I got tunnel vision when I saw his two listed possibilities.
Thanks.
LOL
The line of thinking isn't that I can change the power while I'm using it. The thought is that I pick a weapon and can never change it, until I get more than one use of diving bond or I spend the 30 days at -1 to attack rolls, which while not crippling at lvl 12 it is annoying.
Ah,
No, the way I read it is you can use it on any weapon you have. And you call the spirit down as needed. If the weapon is destroyed while the spirit is in the weapon (such as a sunder attack that breaks it) then you receive the penalties.
Where does it state that though? To be honest this can be read either way, and I'm not sure I can convince the other players to see it in what could be considered a newer light. They all played older editions when most classes were rather restrictive, and they still see things as that sometimes.
I am not sure where you are still confused. Very near the top of this thread I answered your question very thoroughly; go back and read my post up there (4th from the top).
If that doesn't clear up your question, I invite you to specifically state which part of my post is unclear for you and I'll try to elaborate further.
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Where does it state that though? To be honest this can be read either way, and I'm not sure I can convince the other players to see it in what could be considered a newer light. They all played older editions when most classes were rather restrictive, and they still see things as that sometimes.I am not sure where you are still confused. Very near the top of this thread I answered your question very thoroughly; go back and read my post up there (4th from the top).
If that doesn't clear up your question, I invite you to specifically state which part of my post is unclear for you and I'll try to elaborate further.
Kais86's issue is with your very last statement:
So, you can use your divine bond a certain number of times a day. Each time, you pick one weapon in your posession and decide what properties you want it to have. That weapon will have those properties until the duration ends. Next time you use this ability, you can select a different weapon and/or different properties for that entire duration.
He is saying that his group reads Divine Bond to say that the Paladin has a single weapon that is always used to carry the spirit the Paladin calls. Basically it is being perceived much like the Wirard's Arcane Bond ability - One item that gets fancy.
And I have to admit I can see why. The spirit comes and goes but it makes sense in a flavor way that this holy champion type carries this specific bad-ass weapon and then call divine agents to enhance it further.
That said, I read it the way you do but KAis86 is looking for language that proves one way or another and the syntax of the description of the ability doesn't really seem absolute to me...at least not enough to change the minds of some old fashioned gamers if they have their hearts and minds set against it.
I honestly don't see how there can be any confusion about this. The text lists no restriction about changing which weapon you summon a spirit into between uses. This is in contrast to Arcane Bond, for example, which clearly states that it only applies to one specific object.
You can read it one of two ways, and I can't win the argument because we end up going in circles, which is no good.
If you are trying to "win an argument" this really isn't the place for it. We are here to discuss the rules, partly because the company involved has already stated that it doesn't want to dictate "Proper interpretation" to people, instead preferring a "what works for your table" approach.
However if we want a "proper interpretation" then we need a copy of what the ability in question says:
Ability in question in spoiler:
"the first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost (see Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities). These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level."
Now it says "Her weapon" does that mean a male paladin can't use this feature? Probably not. The next part of the issue is if this ability is limited to a single weapon -- Answer: partial yes. Yes because only one weapon at a time maybe affected. Partial because it doesn't say it must always be the same weapon every time the ability is used. It must be the paladin's weapon though... so if the paladin gives away "her" weapon and gets a new weapon the new weapon can't be used since it's not "hers"? Only if your campaign has some very weird rules on possession of items. Can the bonuses change? Not while they are active, but they may be changed at each activation of the ability -- this part is explicitly in the rules: "The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. "
Yes because only one weapon at a time maybe affected
Not true. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from calling a spirit into multiple weapons at a time as long as you have the uses per day to do so.
Yes because only one weapon at a time maybe affectedNot true. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from calling a spirit into multiple weapons at a time as long as you have the uses per day to do so.
True there isn't anything that says you can't active additional divine bonds while the first is active providing you have the daily uses.
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Of course, using this power only works on one weapon at a time, not like you see too many two-weapon paladins, not that I haven't built one before, but at the time I had the benefit of nicer rules. We were trying to see how far we could break 3.5, and that sucker snapped in twain like tooth pick.
The biggest problem is that it doesn't talk about when you can change your weapon, to which my friends take it that you cannot change your weapon without being at a -1 for a month.
No you can't change weapon while the ability is up, yes you should be able to change the weapon between uses of the ability.
No, it doesn't state it has to be a specific weapon.
No, it doesn't say it can be any weapon.
Yes, this is driving me nuts because that portion should have been worded better.
Yes, you should be able to change weapons between uses of the ability.
Sadly it only says "A weapon" which could be any "A weapon" you are choosing to use at the time or "A weapon" you used once and are now stuck with using that ability on.
I think this should be put to the errata thread.
I didn't see one...so I thought this was the one to post it under....my mistake.
I was making a suggestion, that is all.
I was making a suggestion, that is all.Is there an errata thread? If so can I get a link?
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There should totally be a feat to turn Divine Bond into a rounds / day mechanic like Rage or Bardic Music. It would be awesome to be able to turn on that feature as a free action on a round by round basis, as needed.
Making it a free action might also allow that exotic and rarely seen creature, the two-weapon paladin, viable, activating the effect on both of his weapons in a single round, while attacking, using up two rounds worth of his daily uses for each round.
Two-weapon paladins are quite viable thanks to the new improved Smite Evil, even if they take the Special Mount instead of the Weapon Spirit and are thus unable to extra-enchant any of their weapons.
Two-weapon paladins are quite viable thanks to the new improved Smite Evil,A very good point. Smite Evil, like Sneak Attack dice, *begs* for extra attacks, however you can get 'em. TWF, Haste, extra limbs, funky race with a secondary bite attack, it's all good.
Yep. I'm not sure I like that aspect of it, to be honest, but at the same time a single-weapon Paladin is still just peachy, so I just choose to not dual-wield and practice "live and let live".
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Yep. I'm not sure I like that aspect of it, to be honest, but at the same time a single-weapon Paladin is still just peachy, so I just choose to not dual-wield and practice "live and let live".Two-weapon paladins are quite viable thanks to the new improved Smite Evil,A very good point. Smite Evil, like Sneak Attack dice, *begs* for extra attacks, however you can get 'em. TWF, Haste, extra limbs, funky race with a secondary bite attack, it's all good.
I've found that going into the "support" route with a paladin makes them more useful to a party, sure you don't kill a target every round, but if you can fix everyone who was injured at the end of a fight, no one really complains that you can't throw a dozen attacks at +90 hit and damage (yes I'm exaggerating, but that's because I didn't want to think of real numbers). At least in my group it works, I'm the only character who can heal, the other two being an arcane archer and a sorcerer aren't great at healing.