Feline Follies or seriously what is up with the dire lion


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For the night scenario.

Any reason why the mage didn't cast Alarm? Or as mentioned above, physical alarms and traps?

For the day trip (for some reason it appears that the party has to walk around and not set up a blind or trap).

Would not having a long pole with an animal tied to it, preferable alive and often a lion snack, be something to entice the lion to attack the known and easier prey than the strange and new prey?

Also, I believe that someone else mentioned that the cover bonus to the lion's stealth would not apply from above, so any familiar would have a chance of spotting the lion.


Zmar wrote:
fire + parched grass anyone ;)

It's usually NOT a good idea to burn the savannah lands.

But it's really not a big deal, since, in all likelihood, even if the Lion gets the pounce in first, only the Wiz or Sor will die (d6's). And since casters tend to be in the middle, it is out of character for the Lion to attack them (lions would likely attack the one at the end, giving the party a chance to spot it).

Overall, with the buffs the PC's got, CR5 is about right, and on par with other CR5 creatures.

Now, would 2 Dire Lions really be only CR6? It seems THAT is likely to kill the party member outright while increasing the chance one of the casters could be the one pounced...


Mirror, Mirror wrote:


Now, would 2 Dire Lions really be only CR6? It seems THAT is likely to kill the party member outright while increasing the chance one of the casters could be the one pounced...

CR 6 has always been a little wobbly. The problem is it's right where fighters start getting iterative attacks, so that has to be figured in. But, you don't always have a fighter or full BAB person in the party. Then you'd have those CR6 duo lions eating party left and right. On the other hand, three fighters and a cleric is going to eat the lions for lunch.


Creatures like a dire lion or a basilisk are kind of "glass cannons", so they're hard to evaluate with CR. I agree that the dire lion probably didn't need a boost (better bite attack, better Stealth and Perception skills) from the 3.5 version, I suppose.

(By the way, I just noticed that the Pathfinder Bestiary basilisk comes with its own built-in Stone to Flesh potion. Handy!)


mdt wrote:
CR 6 has always been a little wobbly. The problem is it's right where fighters start getting iterative attacks, so that has to be figured in. But, you don't always have a fighter or full BAB person in the party. Then you'd have those CR6 duo lions eating party left and right. On the other hand, three fighters and a cleric is going to eat the lions for lunch.

Excellent point! Your "standard" party of rogue, fighter, cleric, wizard has a good chance of being mauled, but 3 fighters and a cleric wouldn't even break a sweat. Similarly, a bunch of rogues, especially TWFers, would quickly SA the lions to death.

Parties of 5 people are still CR appropriate, and stand a better chance, even with a "standard" configuration (throw in a monk or bard for diversity).

But that all goes back to animals being very tough, but limited, opponents. To MiB's credit, though, the BAB/HD of the Lion IS very good for CR5. Two make a very credible CR6 encounter, regardless of party composition. However, they are significantly less of a threat at CR7 (2 would definitly NOT be a threat), so they really can't be considered CR6. Inductive reasoning places then at CR5.

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A Man In Black wrote:
My wife

I take a standard action to disbelieve.

...but seriously, I wonder if I'm the only person reading this thread who finds all of your assertions about the lion's behavior completely reasonable. :P So for everyone else's benefit:

It's hidden in nice tall grass at the side of the road because it found this road, see, where people travel frequently; and they're tasty.

The adventurers are looking for it because there's a lion eating people.

Hidden lion. Adventurers seeking lion. Lion hidden for reasons having nothing to do with adventurers.

Conversely: a reasonably intelligent group of adventurers will do a little bit of research and find out just how nasty that lion is, buy a donkey, and drape that with raw meat while Bob sharpens his sword.


tejón wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
My wife

I take a standard action to disbelieve.

...but seriously, I wonder if I'm the only person reading this thread who finds all of your assertions about the lion's behavior completely reasonable. :P So for everyone else's benefit:

It's hidden in nice tall grass at the side of the road because it found this road, see, where people travel frequently; and they're tasty.

The adventurers are looking for it because there's a lion eating people.

Yep, never had a problem with why it was hiding, or why the people were looking for it.

tejón wrote:


Hidden lion. Adventurers seeking lion. Lion hidden for reasons having nothing to do with adventurers.

Conversely: a reasonably intelligent group of adventurers will do a little bit of research and find out just how nasty that lion is, buy a donkey, and drape that with raw meat while Bob sharpens his sword.

LOL,

I had a player who always bought a donkey to take with him on adventures. The Donkey's name was Meatshield. The player explained the donkey was both the best thing in the world to hide behind and a source of food if things got tough. :)

Sczarni

mdt wrote:

LOL,

I had a player who always bought a donkey to take with him on adventures. The Donkey's name was Meatshield. The player explained the donkey was both the best thing in the world to hide behind and a source of food if things got tough. :)

I had a half orc named kerhs in one of my groups who had an awakened donkey... he used a soundboard from shrek for the donkey...


Zurai wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Weylin wrote:
And honestly, there are some creatures you just dont engage in melee if you can help it...dire lion has always been among them to me.

It has higher speed than you, at least as good an init roll as you, and when it hides you cannot see it. Additionally, its stated environment is naturally a hiding place. It's like saying, "Oh, they can't have figured that a giant ant lion would live at the bottom of a pit trap, you'll have to raise the CR for that."

How do you suggest that you avoid melee with it, without already knowing where it is beforehand?

Wait, I thought stealth didn't work in Pathfinder?

Shhhh... the lion doesn't know that. :oP


Zmar wrote:
fire + parched grass anyone ;)

This reminded me of "The Ghost and the Darkness." It was a really good movie.


Mistwalker wrote:

For the night scenario.

Any reason why the mage didn't cast Alarm? Or as mentioned above, physical alarms and traps?

If you are referring to the night scenario I threw out there: Because that wasn't the point. All I wanted to do was show that the Lion would be far more dangerous at night and due to his natural abilities it appears he is meant to be a nocturnal predator.

Physical traps and alarms would be a good idea, so would a camp fire, so would a guard rotation at night. All of which are likely methods that a PC party would take. But the point was to demonstrate this creature would be far more dangerous at night.

Scarab Sages

A Man In Black wrote:

The lion has nestled down into the dry grass, a task it has done many times before.

The conditions are dry grass on either side of a road that can barely be called more than a cart rut. The lion has taken 10 on hiding in the grass, making the Perception target to spot it DC 25.

Bill the fighter is at the head of the party, as they traipse down the...

Then the lion spot Bill, and stands up. End of the surpise round (move action).

I don't think the dire lion can hide while in the normal (standing) position, cause he his 10x10 which also means 10 foot high, and would need 10 foot high grass to hide behind! (in such case this high grass/undergrowth would impede movement and prevent him from charging).

The party has a much better chance now...


ESSEL wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:

The lion has nestled down into the dry grass, a task it has done many times before.

The conditions are dry grass on either side of a road that can barely be called more than a cart rut. The lion has taken 10 on hiding in the grass, making the Perception target to spot it DC 25.

Bill the fighter is at the head of the party, as they traipse down the...

Then the lion spot Bill, and stands up. End of the surpise round (move action).

I don't think the dire lion can hide while in the normal (standing) position, cause he his 10x10 which also means 10 foot high, and would need 10 foot high grass to hide behind! (in such case this high grass/undergrowth would impede movement and prevent him from charging).

The party has a much better chance now...

Lions crouch and pounce I have no problem with it pouncing from a crouched down position. I will say I think a lot of terrains that will let it hide will count as hindering and not allow a charge. High grass probably not, but thick weeds, undergrowth, etc. will not allow a charge.

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ESSEL wrote:
Then the lion spot Bill, and stands up. End of the surpise round (move action).

Crouching is different from prone, and neither is required in order to hide in tall grass.

Also, WTF at a 10' tall lion? No wonder he's killing people, he's a lion the size of an elephant! (No, dire lions aren't 10' tall.)

Scarab Sages

Shadowlord wrote:
Zmar wrote:
fire + parched grass anyone ;)
This reminded me of "The Ghost and the Darkness." It was a really good movie.

Actually this whole thread has reminded me of Ghost in the darkness think ill go to Field museum and poke them in the morning

Sczarni

A Man In Black wrote:
ESSEL wrote:
Then the lion spot Bill, and stands up. End of the surpise round (move action).

Crouching is different from prone, and neither is required in order to hide in tall grass.

Also, WTF at a 10' tall lion? No wonder he's killing people, he's a lion the size of an elephant! (No, dire lions aren't 10' tall.)

know whats nastier than a regular old dire lion?

augment summoned, animal growth'd dire lion. with a druid sitting on top (or somewhere behind...)

and i think my game needs a dire lion attack, so.... thanks

-t


In fact, the Lion should probably wait for the party to pass the hiding place, and then pounce on the rearguard. That's generally what lions do in nature, anyway :)


The dire lion only gets a bite attack (and possibly a grapple) in the surprise round.

Admittedly, in a 1 on 1 fight, Bill is going to lose nearly every time , since once the lion has him grappled Bill can't really fight back, and the lion will do damage at only a slightly slower rate than if it was not grappling. (It gets the rake damage in the grapple, but loses its bite attack in favor of using Rake).

Even with surprise and winning the first initiative check, the lion will only have done around 32 damage to Bill in the surprise and first round combined. That assumes it hits with all 3 attacks, there is a 60% chance it misses at least once.

If the lion lets Bill go and goes for a full attack instead the damage will go up, but its still not a first round TPK, the rest of the party has time to deal with the Dire Lion before Bill dies.

I'll agree the CR on the lion might need to be reconsidered (especially given what happens to the poor elven wizard at the back of the party if the Dire Lion attacks him instead), but you way way overpowered the thing.


Requia.

Charge as a standard action (Can only move up to base speed instead of double)

Pounce = full attack (rakes included) on a charge.

BAM: Severely wounded, if not dying Bill.


I believe the lions have typos in the stealth skill sections. If you look at the Winter Wolf, for example, it gets +2 stealth (+8 in snow), and its stealth check in snow is only 6 higher than its stealth check otherwise. Monitor Lizards get +4 stealth (+8 in undergrowth) and their stealth check is only 4 higher in undergrowth. So it follows that the dire lion, which gets +4 stealth (+8 in undergrowth) would have only a +11 stealth in undergrowth instead of +15. That is much more in line with something a character could detect if they were good at perception.


totoro wrote:
So it follows that the dire lion, which gets +4 stealth (+8 in undergrowth) would have only a +11 stealth in undergrowth instead of +15. That is much more in line with something a character could detect if they were good at perception.

Your right. The Lion has the same error as well.


Drastically increases the probability for passing the Perception test to see the lion.

Bill lives. Lucky Bill. Until he finds out the Dire Lion was the house cat of a rather grumpy Storm Giant who is now looking for who killed his wife's favorite kitty Fluffypants.

-Weylin


Weylin wrote:

Drastically increases the probability for passing the Perception test to see the lion.

Bill lives. Lucky Bill. Until he finds out the Dire Lion was the house cat of a rather grumpy Storm Giant who is now looking for who killed his wife's favorite kitty Fluffypants.

-Weylin

Heh you win the thread


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Requia.

Charge as a standard action (Can only move up to base speed instead of double)

Pounce = full attack (rakes included) on a charge.

BAM: Severely wounded, if not dying Bill.

I would still interpret Pounce as requiring a full round charge to work. Its a movement power, and it would be a substantial power up from 3.5 simply because a new option (standard charge) was added, rather than an intentional upgrade to pounce.


Requia wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

Requia.

Charge as a standard action (Can only move up to base speed instead of double)

Pounce = full attack (rakes included) on a charge.

BAM: Severely wounded, if not dying Bill.

I would still interpret Pounce as requiring a full round charge to work. Its a movement power, and it would be a substantial power up from 3.5 simply because a new option (standard charge) was added, rather than an intentional upgrade to pounce.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.


Requia wrote:


I would still interpret Pounce as requiring a full round charge to work. Its a movement power, and it would be a substantial power up from 3.5 simply because a new option (standard charge) was added, rather than an intentional upgrade to pounce.

It's not a new option. It worked the same way in 3.5.

Scarab Sages

A Man In Black wrote:


Also, WTF at a 10' tall lion? No wonder he's killing people, he's a lion the size of an elephant! (No, dire lions aren't 10' tall.)

Since the rule change from 3.0 to 3.5, all creatures are considered to occupy a 'cubic shaped space' for the sake of simplicity. So, even if the actual heigth of the dire lion maybe different than 10 foot, his legal height is 10 foot.

Scarab Sages

A Man In Black wrote:
ESSEL wrote:

Crouching is different from prone, and neither is required in order to hide in tall grass.

The lion may have to wait hours an hours before a prey appears, think he will be lying down on the ground all this time, means he starts from the prone position.

Crouching, the intermediate position, is very uncomfortable, and the lion certainly did not crouch during hours. Also, please indicate me any reference tp crouching in the rules, I don't seem to see them.


ESSEL wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
ESSEL wrote:

Crouching is different from prone, and neither is required in order to hide in tall grass.

The lion may have to wait hours an hours before a prey appears, think he will be lying down on the ground all this time, means he starts from the prone position.

Crouching, the intermediate position, is very uncomfortable, and the lion certainly did not crouch during hours. Also, please indicate me any reference tp crouching in the rules, I don't seem to see them.

I believe it's in the stealth/cover about small creatures getting cover in some situations a medium creature could crouch to get cover in that same situation. The crouching referenced to here is just how a lion hides in the grass, not standing up all the way and not laying prone.

Scarab Sages

Requia wrote:


I would still interpret Pounce as requiring a full round charge to work. Its a movement power, and it would be a substantial power up from 3.5 simply because a new option (standard charge) was added, rather than an intentional upgrade to pounce.

I think this is a fair interpretation, even if it is permitted to charge during the surprise round (only using normal speed though).

A round last 6 seconds, thus the surprise round should last only 3 seconds. So, in these fatidic 3 seconds, the dire lion

*moves 40 feet
*makes a claw claw bite attack
*starts, and win a grapple
*then makes 2 rake attack against poor Bill.

He's pretty fast!


ESSEL wrote:
Requia wrote:


I would still interpret Pounce as requiring a full round charge to work. Its a movement power, and it would be a substantial power up from 3.5 simply because a new option (standard charge) was added, rather than an intentional upgrade to pounce.

I think this is a fair interpretation, even if it is permitted to charge during the surprise round (only using normal speed though).

A round last 6 seconds, thus the surprise round should last only 3 seconds. So, in these fatidic 3 seconds, the dire lion

*moves 40 feet
*makes a claw claw bite attack
*starts, and win a grapple
*then makes 2 rake attack against poor Bill.

He's pretty fast!

Pounce has always worked in the surprise round it's nothing new... That's what makes it pounce


ESSEL wrote:

A round last 6 seconds, thus the surprise round should last only 3 seconds. So, in these fatidic 3 seconds, the dire lion

*moves 40 feet
*makes a claw claw bite attack
*starts, and win a grapple
*then makes 2 rake attack against poor Bill.

He's pretty fast!

My cat could easily do that in 3 seconds. He frequently runs from the cellar to the attic in 1 second flat :)

Although, thankfully, he doesn't deal tons of damage those times he decides to play with my hand :P

Scarab Sages

Crouching: I would consider that crouching exists only for descriptive/flavor purpose. I see nothing in the rules about crouching or any intermediate between standing and prone.

For rules purposes, a creature is either standing or prone, never in-between. Or else someone would need to rewrite the whole combat section of the big PFS book, cause PCs can crouch too.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

"Kneeling or sitting" is mentioned in the armor class modifiers table.

There are no rules anywhere else about this, but if you pretend there are, it covers crouching. :)


tejón wrote:

"Kneeling or sitting" is mentioned in the armor class modifiers table.

There are no rules anywhere else about this, but if you pretend there are, it covers crouching. :)

Lmao, yeah, you can extrapolate that into crouching pretty easily.

And tejón...

Spoiler:
Not sure if you got over busy or had to go to bed or whatnot, but I responded to your comments on the sorc, awaiting reply when your able

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

ESSEL wrote:
Since the rule change from 3.0 to 3.5, all creatures are considered to occupy a 'cubic shaped space' for the sake of simplicity. So, even if the actual heigth of the dire lion maybe different than 10 foot, his legal height is 10 foot.

The same logic makes it impossible for a man to hide behind a tree four feet wide.

So perhaps it isn't very good logic.


ESSEL wrote:


Since the rule change from 3.0 to 3.5, all creatures are considered to occupy a 'cubic shaped space' for the sake of simplicity. So, even if the actual heigth of the dire lion maybe different than 10 foot, his legal height is 10 foot.

That's nonsense. In fact, there'a whole table in the 3.5 MM listing average height and weight for creatures of different size categories, including also what space and reach they typically have.

For instance, under "Large", you see the following:
Height (biped) or Length (quadruped): 8 ft - 16 ft
Weight: 500 lb - 2 tons
Space: 10 ft
Reach (tall): 10 ft
Reach (long): 5 ft

Sczarni

Are wrote:
ESSEL wrote:


Since the rule change from 3.0 to 3.5, all creatures are considered to occupy a 'cubic shaped space' for the sake of simplicity. So, even if the actual heigth of the dire lion maybe different than 10 foot, his legal height is 10 foot.

That's nonsense. In fact, there'a whole table in the 3.5 MM listing average height and weight for creatures of different size categories, including also what space and reach they typically have.

For instance, under "Large", you see the following:
Height (biped) or Length (quadruped): 8 ft - 16 ft
Weight: 500 lb - 2 tons
Space: 10 ft
Reach (tall): 10 ft
Reach (long): 5 ft

the bolded part is where the issue lies...despite being < 10' tall at the shoulder, the space he occupies is 10' x 10' on the battlegrid (10x10x10, if you want to be completely precise)

-t


A Man In Black wrote:

The same logic makes it impossible for a man to hide behind a tree four feet wide.

So perhaps it isn't very good logic.

Actually, that same logic indicates that the tree also takes up at least a 5' cube, so it is easy for a man to hide behind it.


psionichamster wrote:


the bolded part is where the issue lies...despite being < 10' tall at the shoulder, the space he occupies is 10' x 10' on the battlegrid (10x10x10, if you want to be completely precise)

-t

The space occupied on the battlegrid is completely irrelevant in this case, though. In fact, either the rules or a designer stated that the space you occupy on the battlegrid includes the fact that you are moving and dodging and so on, thereby occupying more space in combat than you do in reality (can't find the quote at this particular moment though).

Since this particular Lion is trying to hide and is not currently in combat, the combat space it would occupy won't matter, and only it's actual height and length do.

Plus, if it actually did work the way you claim, how is it that you can move through a square occupied by a friendly character or a helpless enemy, and why are there rules for squeezing through areas that are half as wide as your normal space?


A Man In Black wrote:

So here is our test. Since this is a foe that can easily hide from anyone in the party, can Bill survive a surprise round, then survive to fight or escape? I'm going to abstract the rest of the party; we're mostly looking at this creature's effect on a level-appropriate character.

First off, Bill is flatfooted, for AC 19. The lion, on average, hits with three of four claws, doing 31-ish damage. Then he bites, hitting 3/4 of the time for 11 damage and grappling most of the time. So this pounce could kill Bill but probably won't, but he's now at 15-ish or less HP and is grappled something like 60% of the time.

Bill is knocked sprawling, overwhelmed by the lion's attack...

...

So to keep this same-CR creature from killing a party member, the party will need a great deal of luck from initiative and attack rolls OR someone with a really high Perception mod OR a high-init will-save save-or-lose. Otherwise a melee class will usually die before the lion is stopped, or a non-melee class will just get eaten in the surprise round.

I'm thinking this might be a little bit overkill for its CR.

I think the issue here isn't necessarily if a character can survive, it's if the character goes down. Dying is a bit more forgiving in PF, and our plucky fighter Bill is only down to around fifteen points of damage.

Most other characters might be brought into negatives by this attack, and so would no longer be a threat to the lion and might either be hauled off or dropped and ignored (left to stabilize).

So, back to bill. He's likely grappled. Sure, that's bad, but the Lion can only do bite and two rake attacks damage. He has about 15 hp plus 16 negative hit points until death. The lion does bite damage on a successful grapple check (about 80% of the time) (11 damage) and will probably hit with both rakes (since Bill is grappled), so another 20 points of damage, which puts Bill at -16, and dead (though this is again not a certainty).

Don't forget your neighborhood rogue, though. If he beats initiative and was ready for the lion, he could conceivably crossbow sneak-attack him for, on average 4+10 points of damage (with point blank shot) if he beats the lion's initiative. If he doesn't, he still might be able to do something.

However, the Lion is grappled, too. He's at a -4 to Dex (which we can debate whether or not that means he's lost his dex bonus to AC for sneak attacking), can't move and is surrounded by angry, angry people. If the cleric beats the lion's initiative, he can heal Bill before the Lion strikes again, if the rogue beats the initiative, he can sneak attack the ol' Lion and try to draw its fire to save Bill. If the Wizard beats the initiative, he can hit it with a fairly heavy spell, again, since it's an animal, to draw its fire or scare it away. If Bill survives he can try to break the grapple, or do something else to save his skin. Yes, he's in danger. Actually, if Bill survives, the party is probably in more danger because the wizard can't open up with heavy area attack spells.

Probably, the party can damage or threaten the Lion enough to make it change it's attack, if he takes enough damage, he won't stick around to fight. Yes, the Dire Lion is dangerous from surprise, but wouldn't the same be said of any stealthy character?

Also, I think someone pointed this out earlier, the Lion and Dire Lion's stat blocks are in error the Dire Lion's stealth should be 11, and the lion's should be 12. Much more equitable for same level parties.


ESSEL wrote:
Requia wrote:


I would still interpret Pounce as requiring a full round charge to work. Its a movement power, and it would be a substantial power up from 3.5 simply because a new option (standard charge) was added, rather than an intentional upgrade to pounce.

I think this is a fair interpretation, even if it is permitted to charge during the surprise round (only using normal speed though).

A round last 6 seconds, thus the surprise round should last only 3 seconds. So, in these fatidic 3 seconds, the dire lion

*moves 40 feet
*makes a claw claw bite attack
*starts, and win a grapple
*then makes 2 rake attack against poor Bill.

He's pretty fast!

I think that he could bolt and attack, particularly if he was within 40 feet. It makes sense that individuals could charge on the surprise round, even at limited range. That's what it's for, so you can move recklessly and engage at the same time. Otherwise, only ranged attacks or spells could be used.

However, he doesn't need to start and win a grapple with a pounce attack. The rule specifically states they get rake attacks as well.

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Makarnak wrote:
Don't forget your neighborhood rogue, though. If he beats initiative and was ready for the lion, he could conceivably crossbow sneak-attack him for, on average 4+10 points of damage (with point blank shot) if he beats the lion's initiative. If he doesn't, he still might be able to do something.

I accounted for that. It's not really much damage.

The point is that the lion can two-round nearly anyone to death, and one-round about half of any given reasonable party, and can do this from a very high Stealth check and a fairly high init check.

This is up from 3.5, where he three-rounds anyone and two-rounds weak classes. Most parties can recover from that.


A Man In Black wrote:
Makarnak wrote:
Don't forget your neighborhood rogue, though. If he beats initiative and was ready for the lion, he could conceivably crossbow sneak-attack him for, on average 4+10 points of damage (with point blank shot) if he beats the lion's initiative. If he doesn't, he still might be able to do something.

I accounted for that. It's not really much damage.

The point is that the lion can two-round nearly anyone to death, and one-round about half of any given reasonable party, and can do this from a very high Stealth check and a fairly high init check.

This is up from 3.5, where he three-rounds anyone and two-rounds weak classes. Most parties can recover from that.

Honestly that's not much difference from a dragon, dragons get so many attacks that they can usually take down someone in one round once the fight starts, and if they can ambush someone, then someone usually dies the surprise round.

EDIT: Please note I'm talking about a Level Appropriate encounter too


A Man In Black wrote:
Makarnak wrote:
Don't forget your neighborhood rogue, though. If he beats initiative and was ready for the lion, he could conceivably crossbow sneak-attack him for, on average 4+10 points of damage (with point blank shot) if he beats the lion's initiative. If he doesn't, he still might be able to do something.

I accounted for that. It's not really much damage.

The point is that the lion can two-round nearly anyone to death, and one-round about half of any given reasonable party, and can do this from a very high Stealth check and a fairly high init check.

This is up from 3.5, where he three-rounds anyone and two-rounds weak classes. Most parties can recover from that.

If there's noone in the group who can spot the dire lion you could always raise it's CR by one since that group is at a major disadvantage to it. Nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with lowering the CR of a group of fire salamanders who get taken out by a cone of cold in the surprise round.

Most groups I've played in have at least one person with a high perception check. ranger, rogue or what have you that can warn the group and give them a heads up

Scarab Sages

QOShea wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:

The same logic makes it impossible for a man to hide behind a tree four feet wide.

So perhaps it isn't very good logic.

Actually, that same logic indicates that the tree also takes up at least a 5' cube, so it is easy for a man to hide behind it.

Yes! And the point is: you cannot charge from behind that tree cause it is blocking your path!

There is one way the lion can hide with nothing blocking the path in front of him: by laying completely prone on the ground and blending into the surroundings!


ESSEL wrote:
QOShea wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:

The same logic makes it impossible for a man to hide behind a tree four feet wide.

So perhaps it isn't very good logic.

Actually, that same logic indicates that the tree also takes up at least a 5' cube, so it is easy for a man to hide behind it.

Yes! And the point is: you cannot charge from behind that tree cause it is blocking your path!

There is one way the lion can hide with nothing blocking the path in front of him: by laying completely prone on the ground and blending into the surroundings!

Or he could diagonal around it and then charge.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

mdt wrote:
Honestly that's not much difference from a dragon, dragons get so many attacks that they can usually take down someone in one round once the fight starts, and if they can ambush someone, then someone usually dies the surprise round.

You mean the notoriously under-CR monsters that completely demolished level-appropriate parties? The ones Paizo swore up and down they'd be fixing with the Bestiary? :3


A Man In Black wrote:
mdt wrote:
Honestly that's not much difference from a dragon, dragons get so many attacks that they can usually take down someone in one round once the fight starts, and if they can ambush someone, then someone usually dies the surprise round.
You mean the notoriously under-CR monsters that completely demolished level-appropriate parties? The ones Paizo swore up and down they'd be fixing with the Bestiary? :3

I'm talking about 'appropriately leveled encounters' with one. I had 5 characters and 1 cohort (all 8th or 9th level, 6th level cohort) against an adult black dragon. All were monster PC's.

Fight lasted three rounds. Dragon attacked from ambush (but they knew he was there, so all he got was first attack, not a free round), hit the duskblade and took down half his hit points. Everyone swarmed the dragon, then the druid cast 'Mass Snake Swiftness' and everyone got another tag on him. Second round he unloaded a breath weapon that didn't work (the cleric had cast acid resist on everyone ahead of time). Everyone unloads on the dragon again, druid casts 'mass snakeswiftness' and 2 more people get a second attack. Third round, dragon unloads on duskblade, kills him dead as a doornail, does some major damage to the kobold marshal with his remaining attacks. Everyone unloads on the dragon (including the marshal who uses an exploding spike he's been saving since 5th level). Druid casts 'mass snake swiftness' 2 people get extra attack. Dragon, down to 8 hps, takes off straight up and flies off, everyone whiffed their AoO.

The duskblade would have died the second round had the dragon not wasted it with a breath weapon to get more people. So, very similar to the dire lion story.

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