PF rules say
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
The question is do rogues get the sneak attack if the target is denied part of the dex bonus to AC such as if hit with a tanglefoot bag. I'm reading it as yes.
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PF rules say
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.The question is do rogues get the sneak attack if the target is denied part of the dex bonus to AC such as if hit with a tanglefoot bag. I'm reading it as yes.
Since the target still has part of the DEX bonus, that would mean no sneak attack.
Edit: If the tanglefoot bag took away all the DEX bonus, then sneak attack would be possible.
Nope. Tanglefoot bag just gives a dex penalty. The target also still has his full dex bonus, there is just a dex penalty that is added afterwords.
Nope. Tanglefoot bag just gives a dex penalty. The target also still has his full dex bonus, there is just a dex penalty that is added afterwords.
Tanglefoot bag: An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move.
If you are unable to move you're classed as flatfooted surely?
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Nope. Tanglefoot bag just gives a dex penalty. The target also still has his full dex bonus, there is just a dex penalty that is added afterwords.Tanglefoot bag: An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move.
If you are unable to move you're classed as flatfooted surely?
Not necessarily, there are several spell effects in the game that rob a character of the ability to move but still grant a full dex bonus. Daze and Hideous Laughter come to mind right away.
Flatfooted is misleading, as it does not literly mean unable to move, but rather you lose you dex bonus (denied your dex bonus), due to surprise etc. Even if you are glued to the floor you can defend yourself, although it is very difficult to dodge, and thus the -4 to dexterity. However, a rogue can not sneak attack.
In another post there was talk of a house rule taking away flank attacks and effectivally nerfing a prime skill for the rogue class. The impression given was that there are loads of other ways to sneak attack.
Well the only ones that come to mind is surprise, feint and flanking. All working off the principal that the target is flatfooted. I'm just trying to find other ways for a rogue to sneak attack.
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I searched the pdf a while back and there really are quite a few (though I can't remember all of them now). Things like climbing, balancing, running (not double move, but running x4), not being surprised but not having acted yet in the first round, etc. all deny Dex bonus and thus make you sneak-attackable.
If they are stuck to the floor they gain the entangled condition.
I would give the rogues the sneak attack damage since the target has limited mobility but that is not officially in the rules.
I give the flat footed penalty to the following conditions in my game.
Blinded
Cowering
Deafened (if from behind)
Dying
Fascinated
Flat-Footed
Helpless
Panicked
Paralyzed
Pinned
Stunned
Unconscious
Running without the Run feat the target is considered flat footed.
Also you would gain sneak attack if the rogue was invisible.
Typically any time the target is denied movement they are rogue fodder. On a slick surface or climbing a rope. A feint/bluff will give you a sneak attack or a handy flask of oil or sand to the face could give you the advantage.
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Tanglefoot bag: An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity
If you are unable to move you're classed as flatfooted surely?
Even if it was a -99 Dexterity penalty, your opponent would still have all of it's Dex bonus to AC (it just wouldn't have any Dex bonus to apply to AC.)
No amount of penalty can make you take Sneak Attack damage.
Tanglefoot bag: An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity
If you are unable to move you're classed as flatfooted surely?
Even if it was a -99 Dexterity penalty, your opponent would still have all of it's Dex bonus to AC (it just wouldn't have any Dex bonus to apply to AC.)
No amount of penalty can make you take Sneak Attack damage.
Up until the character runs out of actual Dexterity and is left as an uncontrolled mannequin. When your Dex hits 0 you become helpless, aka rogue fodder (well anybody can pretty much massacre someone at that point, but you get my meaning).
"denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"
This is the phrase which confuses me as it implies that it doesn't matter the actual amount but anything which will deny a bonus gives you an opportunity to sneak attack. You are entangled and denied a DEX bonus to AC ergo you can be sneak attacked.
"denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"
This is the phrase which confuses me as it implies that it doesn't matter the actual amount but anything which will deny a bonus gives you an opportunity to sneak attack. You are entangled and denied a DEX bonus to AC ergo you can be sneak attacked.
Jumping in with another question:
Is there any difference between "being denied a DEX-bonus" and "loosing a DEX-bonus" ? I encountered these two rules-portions several times while reading the book and i'm unsure about this, especially in combination with sneak attacks.
"denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"
This is the phrase which confuses me as it implies that it doesn't matter the actual amount but anything which will deny a bonus gives you an opportunity to sneak attack. You are entangled and denied a DEX bonus to AC ergo you can be sneak attacked.
Not as the rules are written.
I will only give sneak attack against an entangled opponent if that target can not move. In the case of a tangle foot bag if the target failed the save and is stuck in place yes but if they made the save and can move then no. The same goes for a web spell or similar effects.
Is there any difference between "being denied a DEX-bonus" and "loosing a DEX-bonus" ? I encountered these two rules-portions several times while reading the book and i'm unsure about this, especially in combination with sneak attacks.
I am not aware of that distinction. If they loose the dex bonus they are flat footed. If they take a dex bonus penalty they are not.
For example Exhausted gives a -6 penalty on Str and Dex. They still have their dex bonus. Even if that bonus is now a negative number they would not be considered flat footed.
I am not aware of that distinction.
Example: Class - Barbarian - Uncanny Dodge: "...She still looses her DEX-bonus to AC if immobilized...still looses his DEX-bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the faint action..." or Skills - Acrobatics: "...While using Acrobatics...and lose your DEX-bonus to your AC (if any)..."
And as per Rogue - Sneak Attack: "... anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC."
so is loosing = denied (or in other words: if an opponent looses DEX-bonus can a rogue sneak attack) ???
so is loosing = denied (or in other words: if an opponent looses DEX-bonus can a rogue sneak attack) ???
Yes.
so is loosing = denied (or in other words: if an opponent looses DEX-bonus can a rogue sneak attack) ???Yes.
I think I'm understanding this...
If someone is loosing a DEX bonus then they are subject to a sneak attack. So does that apply if they loose part of the DEX bonus?Any official imput would be nice just to clarify.
A penalty to Dexterity is not "loosing" (sic) part of your Dex bonus to AC. You still apply your full Dex bonus. I'm actually not aware of anything that can make you lose a partial Dex bonus; it's all or nothing. Either you're denied Dex bonus, or you aren't.
EDIT: Basically, the interpretation you're taking would mean that anyone with lower than 12 Dexterity could always be sneak attacked, because they have no Dexterity bonus to AC. That's obviously wrong. "Denied Dexterity bonus to AC" is an actual condition in the game, and it's generally very clearly defined where it comes from (flat-footed, invisible attacker, blind, etc).
A penalty to Dexterity is not "loosing" (sic) part of your Dex bonus to AC. You still apply your full Dex bonus. I'm actually not aware of anything that can make you lose a partial Dex bonus; it's all or nothing. Either you're denied Dex bonus, or you aren't.
Yea, I'm confusing my self!
You loose DEX which in turn effects the bonus. 18 DEX and entangled becomes 14 effective DEX bonus drops from +4 to +2 and is not subject to sneak attacks. So you lose a partial DEX bonus?Correct? Not trying to be snarky just confused!
A penalty to Dexterity is not "loosing" (sic) part of your Dex bonus to AC. You still apply your full Dex bonus. I'm actually not aware of anything that can make you lose a partial Dex bonus; it's all or nothing. Either you're denied Dex bonus, or you aren't.Yea, I'm confusing my self!
You loose DEX which in turn effects the bonus. 18 DEX and entangled becomes 14 effective DEX bonus drops from +4 to +2 and is not suject to sneak attacks.
Correct?
Exactly! Losing Dexterity is not the same thing as losing the Dexterity bonus. The wording can get a little confusing, for sure. You still have a Dex bonus to AC even if you only have 1 Dex, assuming you're not flat-footed, blind, being attacked by an invisible creature, etc.
Exactly! Losing Dexterity is not the same thing as losing the Dexterity bonus. The wording can get a little confusing, for sure. You still have a Dex bonus to AC even if you only have 1 Dex, assuming you're not flat-footed, blind, being attacked by an invisible creature, etc.A penalty to Dexterity is not "loosing" (sic) part of your Dex bonus to AC. You still apply your full Dex bonus. I'm actually not aware of anything that can make you lose a partial Dex bonus; it's all or nothing. Either you're denied Dex bonus, or you aren't.Yea, I'm confusing my self!
You loose DEX which in turn effects the bonus. 18 DEX and entangled becomes 14 effective DEX bonus drops from +4 to +2 and is not suject to sneak attacks.
Correct?
Well at least I will be able to sleep later without worrying about that!
As long as you have a DEX bonus, no matter how cr@ppy it is, you can forget a sneak attack.Phew... Thanks.
Now for the followup question.
Does a creature with a negative dex bonus get a better AC when caught flat footed?
A Barbarian with a 10 dex becomes exhausted gaining a -6 penalty to Str and Dex. AC 7
A rogue sneaks up and catches him flat footed.
Is the Barbarian's AC 7 or 10?
Does a creature with a negative dex bonus get a better AC when caught flat footed?
No, because you are denied your Dex bonus to AC. Any penalty you have to AC still remains. Nice try though. :P
Does a creature with a negative dex bonus get a better AC when caught flat footed?No, because you are denied your Dex bonus to AC. Any penalty you have to AC still remains. Nice try though. :P
Ah, but his Dex Bonus is a -3 as read off the chart. He has a penalty to his dex which reduces his bonus but now you have taken his bonus away.
What if we just take a very clumsy human.
Nerl the Unlucky Level 3 warrior
Str 14
Dex 4
Con 12
Chain shirt AC 10 + 4 -3 = 11
The rogue sneaks up and back stabs him. Now he is flat footed and about to take a dagger to the kidneys.
AC 11 or AC 14?
Ah, but his Dex Bonus is a -3 as read off the chart. He has a penalty to his dex which reduces his bonus but now you have taken his bonus away.Does a creature with a negative dex bonus get a better AC when caught flat footed?No, because you are denied your Dex bonus to AC. Any penalty you have to AC still remains. Nice try though. :P
Read the chart again. A DEX of 4 (10 - 6) has a -3 modifier. Bonuses are positive, penalties are negative, modifiers are either. When you're flatfooted, you lose your DEX bonus, if any.
Edit to add:
What if we just take a very clumsy human.
Nerl the Unlucky Level 3 warrior
Str 14
Dex 4
Con 12Chain shirt AC 10 + 4 -3 = 11
The rogue sneaks up and back stabs him. Now he is flat footed and about to take a dagger to the kidneys.
AC 11 or AC 14?
AC11. Being caught unawares does not make you suddenly less clumsy.
Page 11
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to
checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type,
and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not
cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus
granted applies.
As defined by the game bonuses are numerical values they say nothing about whether the values are negative or positive.
What is Nerl was sleeping in his armor? Yes he is clumsy but he can't do anything to help or hinder this. You could do a coup-de-gras on him but his AC would still be 14 until he woke up and started stumbling around.
Page 11
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to
checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type,
and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not
cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus
granted applies.
See highlighted word above. And before you say that when you add a negative it subtracts, read the definition of a penalty.
"denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"
This is the phrase which confuses me as it implies that it doesn't matter the actual amount but anything which will deny a bonus gives you an opportunity to sneak attack. You are entangled and denied a DEX bonus to AC ergo you can be sneak attacked.
It's definitely confusing the way you word it but in the book it is more clear:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not),
So it's not when you are denied it but when you would be if you had a dexterity bonus. Still not exactly obvious but a lot more clear. Most of the situations are either obvious (target is asleep) or explicitly listed as denying dexterity bonus to AC.
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What is Nerl was sleeping in his armor? Yes he is clumsy but he can't do anything to help or hinder this. You could do a coup-de-gras on him but his AC would still be 14 until he woke up and started stumbling around.
If he's asleep he's helpless. So he'd have an AC of 9 (10 - 5 Dex penalty + 4 armor bonus). "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets." PFSRD
Having a Dexterity penalty is not the same thing as "losing" or "being denied" a Dexterity bonus. No amount of Dex penalty will make you sneak attackable. "Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1." PFSRD
Ability damage or drain to your Dex score also doesn't make you sneak attackable, unless it reduces your Dex to 0, in which case you are helpless. "If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score." which actually conflicts with "A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)." (both PFSRD) However, it hardly matters because either way you're helpless and able to be sneak attacked if your Dex is reduced to 0 through ability damage or ability drain.
The conditions that specifically make you lose your Dex bonus to AC are: blinded, cowering, dying, flat-footed (unless you have Uncanny Dodge), helpless, paralyzed, petrified, pinned (causes you to be flat-footed, Uncanny Dodge helps), stable, stunned, unconscious.
In addition, some effects on the attacker can cause the defender to lose their Dex bonus to AC. If the attacker is invisible, the defender loses any Dex bonus to AC and is sneak attackable (unless the defender has Blind-Fight, in which case they don't lose their Dex bonus vs. invisible attackers).
The moral of the story is this: if you're a rogue, hit first, then flank. If you can't flank, you still have a ton of options if you have a monk buddy who can stun or grapple or a spellcaster buddy who can slap some conditions on your foes. Uncanny Dodge only helps if they're flat-footed... not if they're stunned, cowering, blind, etc. or if you're invisible. Greater invisibility makes a rogue crank out crazygonuts sneak attacks.
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Dex hits 0 you become helpless, aka rogue fodder (well anybody can pretty much massacre someone at that point, but you get my meaning).
DEX 0 = Immobile, but not Helpless
At DEX 0 you can make Reflex saves, you can dodge Sneak Attacks, etc.You are entangled and denied a DEX bonus to AC ergo you can be sneak attacked.
You can't be Sneak Attacked while Entangled even if you currently have no Dexterity Bonus.
DEX 0 = Immobile, but not Helpless
At DEX 0 you can make Reflex saves, you can dodge Sneak Attacks, etc.
Sorry James, not true. As per PRD Glossary, if you take enough ability damage to drop you to zero or below in any ability score, you fall unconscious and are thus helpless. The exception being CON, where you fall dead and are thus, well, dead. Ability penalties can never reduce a score below 1.
Pathfinder has removed the ability-specific effects for being dropped to zero in an ability score. In fact, you don't actually reduce your ability score at all. Instead you add up the damage like you would non-lethal damage, taking appropriate penalties for every 2 points of damage, until it meets or exceeds your current score.
You can't be Sneak Attacked while Entangled even if you currently have no Dexterity Bonus.
More accurately, the Entangled condition by itself does not deny you your dexterity bonus and thus it does not open you up to sneak attacks. If another condition also applies (flatfooted, feinted, flanked, etc) that allows Sneak Attack, you're still open to it.
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DEX 0 = Immobile, but not HelplessSorry James, not true. As per PRD Glossary, if you take enough ability damage to drop you to zero or below in any ability score, you fall unconscious and are thus helpless.
In 3.p Helpless is only granted these ways:
1) p191 "While unconscious"2) p197 "Bound, Sleeping, Paralyzed, Unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy."
3) p249 Blashpemy
4) p269 Dictum
5) p297 Holy Word
6) p344 Sleep
7) p378 Assassin paralysis effect
8) p567 "paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy"
At no point in the rules are there any rules saying that the "Dexterity at 0 = Immobile" is the same as any of the words listed for Helpless.
A DM is doing well to Rule 0 (house rule) that Immobile = Paralyzed, but that isn't exactly considered RAW.
At no point in the rules are there any rules saying that the "Dexterity at 0 = Immobile" is the same as any of the words listed for Helpless.
False.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.
Emphasis mine.
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At no point in the rules are there any rules saying that the "Dexterity at 0 = Immobile" is the same as any of the words listed for Helpless.False.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.Emphasis mine.
However, PFRPG rules conflict with themselves on this at least in the PFSRD, as I pointed out above.
"If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score." which actually conflicts with "A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)." (both PFSRD)
The intent seems that Dex 0 makes you helpless as if you were paralyzed, although the RAW doesn't explicitly state that it gives the paralyzed condition. But paralyzed is what we call somebody who's conscious but can't move any part of their body.
So, by one rule he is unconscious, and by another he is paralyzed. My question is, does it really matter to the guy lying on the floor with no DEX? Either way he is screwed and is going to get smoked (AND IS MOST DEFINITELY VULNERABLE TO SA NO MATTER HOW YOU RULE IT). Also he can be CDG'd. CDG + SA = you are dead.
However, PFRPG rules conflict with themselves on this at least in the PFSRD, as I pointed out above.
"If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score." which actually conflicts with "A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)." (both PFSRD)The intent seems that Dex 0 makes you helpless as if you were paralyzed, although the RAW doesn't explicitly state that it gives the paralyzed condition. But paralyzed is what we call somebody who's conscious but can't move any part of their body.
No, there is no conflict. You're ignoring rules. Ability damage doesn't reduce your stat; it just accumulates. When it accumulates to a multiple of 2, you take a -1/2 damage penalty to everything that uses said stat for a modifier. When it accumulates to an amount equal to or greater than your score in that stat, you fall unconscious. At no point is your Dexterity or any other stat reduced to 0 through ability damage or ability drain. Penalties to an ability score could conceivably reduce your stat to zero, except that penalties explicitly cannot reduce a stat below 1.
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I wish I had gotten into this at the begining. It seems that many are trying to rip the rogue off from getting his sneak attack.
From the core rule book:
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he
is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she
can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her
target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether
the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when
the rogue flanks her target.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you
to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged
attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws.
The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat
Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your
Combat Maneuver Defense.
With these two descriptions coming from the core book, any time a rogue's target is denied his normal dexterity bonus to AC (if the target has an 18 dex, that would be a +4 to ac) then the rogue gets the sneak attack damage. Sometimes a character could have an odd number in their dex score, like a 17, and they get a -1 on their dexterity for some reason. Since they still have the +3 bonus to AC with a 16 score, they dont get to have the sneak attack damage applied to them.
I hope this is a good explanation of this.
I hope this is a good explanation of this.
It is not; you are incorrect. Please read through the thread more carefully.
Ah, but his Dex Bonus is a -3 as read off the chart. He has a penalty to his dex which reduces his bonus but now you have taken his bonus away.Does a creature with a negative dex bonus get a better AC when caught flat footed?No, because you are denied your Dex bonus to AC. Any penalty you have to AC still remains. Nice try though. :PRead the chart again. A DEX of 4 (10 - 6) has a -3 modifier. Bonuses are positive, penalties are negative, modifiers are either. When you're flatfooted, you lose your DEX bonus, if any.
Edit to add:
AC11. Being caught unawares does not make you suddenly less clumsy.What if we just take a very clumsy human.
Nerl the Unlucky Level 3 warrior
Str 14
Dex 4
Con 12Chain shirt AC 10 + 4 -3 = 11
The rogue sneaks up and back stabs him. Now he is flat footed and about to take a dagger to the kidneys.
AC 11 or AC 14?
I dunno. I kinda of like the thought of someone super clumsy not being able to be "clumsy in time" to give the attack a "bonus" to hit.
I have no RAW basis to this. I merely like the concept. It makes me smile.
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I hope this is a good explanation of this.It is not; you are incorrect. Please read through the thread more carefully.
I read your posts and dissagree with your explanation. Going from a +4 to a +2 bonus to AC IS losing "a dexterity bonus to ac".
It is losing "a +2 dexterity bonus to AC."
I am not a rules nazi, we just dis-agree with the part where the rules state "denied a dexterity bonus". To me, that means that someone is denied what he would normally have.
Its just like having 4 apples and someone takes two. I am denied those two because someone took them. I still have 2 left.
this goes for a 9dex. normally I would have a -1 bonus to Ac. if I go to a 7, I am denied that -1 and now have even less.
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I hope this is a good explanation of this.It is not; you are incorrect. Please read through the thread more carefully.I read your posts and dissagree with your explanation. Going from a +4 to a +2 bonus to AC IS losing "a dexterity bonus to ac".
It is losing "a +2 dexterity bonus to AC."
I am not a rules nazi, we just dis-agree with the part where the rules state "a dexterity bonus"
the difference i see is between "losing dex" and "denied your dex bonus". if your you take Dex damage that drops your bonus to 0, that is not the same thing as being denied your Dex bonus.
you could drop someone to a Dex 1 from a Dex 23 and you still dont get the sneak attack.
-Weylin
I adjusted my first posting so I could be more concise. I think it better explains what I was trying to say.
I hope this is a good explanation of this.It is not; you are incorrect. Please read through the thread more carefully.I read your posts and dissagree with your explanation. Going from a +4 to a +2 bonus to AC IS losing "a dexterity bonus to ac".
It is losing "a +2 dexterity bonus to AC."
I am not a rules nazi, we just dis-agree with the part where the rules state "a dexterity bonus"
No. "Being denied a Dexterity bonus to AC" (which is what Sneak Attack triggers off of) is not the same as "not having my AC adjusted by the full amount of my Dexterity bonus". As a quick and easy example, I present the case of the Dodge bonus to AC:
Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
By your interpretation, wearing a chain shirt with a dexterity of 20 or higher would allow sneak attacks because your Dexterity bonus to AC is lower than your Dexterity bonus. Yet, the rules make an explicit distinction between having a lower Dex bonus to AC and being denied Dex bonus to AC.
Here's another piece of text from the same section that sheds even more light on the subject:
Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you’re wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole Dexterity bonus to your AC (see Table 6–6).
Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Again, there's a clear distinction between not applying full Dexterity bonus and being denied your Dexterity bonus.
I am not a rules nazi, we just dis-agree with the part where the rules state "denied a dexterity bonus". To me, that means that someone is denied what he would normally have.
That is a VERY loose interpretation of a very simple rule.
As Zurai said, by that same logic, any armor that "denies the dex bonus you would normally have" would mean anyone with a high dex wearing armor would be vulnerable to sneak attack at all times?
If there were a caveat like that, it would state it.
I adjusted my first posting so I could be more concise. I think it better explains what I was trying to say.
You still get your dexterity bonus when you have dexterity damage or drain, it is just lower than it normal.
You are denied you bonus when you are flat footed or under some other specific situations in the game (using balance, unconscious, paralyzed, blind, invisible attacker, etc). The conditions which deny you dexterity generally explicitly say they do.
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"Dexterity at 0 = Immobile"For ... damage you take to a single ability ... immediately fall unconscious
So the rules are inconsistent with each other, nice. So how do you handle specific vs general? The rule in the description of Dexterity being more like a specific rule to me and the rule at page 555 seems more like a general rule?
Does specific still trump general in 3.p?
Going from a +4 to a +2 bonus to AC IS losing "a dexterity bonus to ac".
You are welcome to house rule it that way, but know you are going against the rules as written. Clearly going against both the Spirit of the Rules (Intent/RAI) and the actual rules (RAW)
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Just chiming in with some Validations that might help people better understand the mechanics of stats and modifiers...
Bonus = When a rule refers to a Bonus it is refering to a positive number. for example a Dexterity of 12 gives a +1 bonus to AC.
Penalty = When a rule refers to a penalty it is refering to a negative number. for example The Shaken condition gives a -2 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks.
Modifier = When a rule refers to a modifier it is refering to either a positive or a negative number. for example you add your strength modifier to damage if your str is 12 you add +1 if your str is 8 you add -1.
Denied = When a rule refers to denying an ability it means you cannot apply the specified BONUS to the referenced ability Your modifier remains unchanged. for example flat footed means you cannot apply your dexterity BONUS to your AC. however you still have a dexterity score and your dexterity modifier remains unchanged.
Some More examples:
Skill Ranks Per Level : 4 + Int MODIFIER
A barbarian applies his intelligence MODIFIER to his skill ranks meaning if he has an Int of 12 he adds +1 skill rank, if he has an 8 Int he subtracts 1 rank.
Smite Evil: A Paladin adds her Charisma BONUS to her attack rolls...
A Paladin applies her charisma BONUS to her attack rolls not any PENALTY meaning if she has a Cha of 12 she adds +1, if she has an 8 Cha she adds +0 (not -1).
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At the OP. You REDUCE (not LOSE) dexterity when you suffer a PENALTY to your dexterity, however suffering a penalty does not DENY your dexterity.
Sneak attack states you deal extra damage when a target would be Denied a Dexterity BONUS to AC. It is worded like this so that people dont mistake it with a PENALTY. For example Dulsins loophole question and I personally have seen people try to argue that a character with a Dexterity of 8 (AC 9) actually has an AC of 10 when flat-footed!
Back to the Original comment regarding the Tanglefoot bag...
The target becomes entangled on a successful attack roll with the bag taking a -4 penalty to dexterity and a -2 to attack rolls.
They must then pass a DC 15 reflex (with the new Dex -4) or be glued to the floor unable to move .... This line refers to being held immobile as also referenced in the Entangled condition.
Looking up immobile the closest reference in the rules is Helpless so a tanglefoot bag forces a saving throw or become helpless. helpless targets have a dexterity set to 0 (-5) and can be sneak attacked and can even be attacked with a coup-de-grace.
Alternatively you could rule a tanglefoot bag instead provides the target with the Pinned condition only providing a -4 penalty to AC. however the target is still flat-footed and vulnerable to sneak attacks, he isnt however suseptable to coup-de-grace.
I personally would be more inclined to go with the Pinned condition over Helpless.
@ Alkir - Dazed and Hideous Laughter specifically state "can take no actions" this is not the same as "unable to move". A dazed creature can still avoid attacks with his dexterity or avoid pit traps with a successful reflex save.
@ Beastman and Dulsin - loosing does NOT equal denied (see above for details)
@ CuttinCurt - Going from a +4 to a +2 bonus to AC IS losing "a dexterity bonus to ac".
Actually going from +4 to +2 is REDUCING your Dex bonus. Having a dexterity bonus of +2,+4, or +20 means you still have a BONUS at no point have you LOST that BONUS.
@ James Risner - You seem to be arguing a non-rule here. There is no rule for Immobile in the Core Rulebook - The closest reference to Immobile is Helpless... However Helpless sets your Dex to 0 but does not make you unconscious.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy...
The initial entry of Dexterity states you are not unconscious because being unconscious involves loss of thought which would impede intelligence and wisdom. Others have refered to a Dex of 0 equaling unconsciousness but they are drawing that from ABILITY DAMAGE/PENALTY/DRAIN entry where is specifically states DAMAGE reducing to 0 makes you unconscious.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
This leads to only one rule left which is what I think your getting at and thats creatures with a Dexterity score of 0. This applies solely to innanimate objects that cannot move yet remain conscious thus have no speed entry. The Only creature I can recall having a Dexterity of 0 however is the Shrieker (and cannot move) which isnt in the Pathfinder Bestiary.