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Okay... Using the Lizardman as an Example.
So if you have 3 or more natural attacks you would:
Claw, Claw at Full BaB and Bite at -5?
If you have MA feat:
Claw, Claw at Full BaB and Bite at -2?
If you are using a weapon in one hand:
Weapon at Full BaB and Claw,Bite at -5 or -2 depending on if you have MA feat?
If this is so, why does the Ghoul, Grizzly Bear and Deinonychus (just looking for critters with 3 attacks) all have their first 3 attacks at full bonus? Deino if the only one with a 4th attack that seems to follow the -5 rule.
What is the point of Multi-Attack feat? Or more importantly what is different about the Lizardfolk that he needs it? Seems to me that if he ditched the weapon and the feat he should be able to make 3 attacks at his full BaB.
Help me out here, what am I missing?
Creative Director
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Lizardfolk are a great example to explore the complexities of this type of problem. Good choice! :)
Basically, a lizardfolk's got three natural attacks—two claws and one bite. As detailed on page 302 of the Bestairy, both bite and claws are primary attacks, and so the lizardfolk doesn't suffer any penalty to attack rolls made with them at all. A lizardfolk doesn't need Multiattack at all to attack with both claws and his bite at his full attack bonus.
HOWEVER, once he decides to wield a weapon, all of his natural attacks immediately become secondary attacks since the weapon itself becomes the primary attack by simple virtue of the fact that it's a weapon. The lizardfolk now makes his weapon attack at his full attack bonus, but any claw or bite attacks he makes suffer the –5 penalty for being secondary attacks. If this lizardfolk has Multiattack, that becomes a –2 penalty; Multiattack is a good feat for a lizardfolk who prefers to fight with a weapon in one hand.
Now, creatures like ghouls and bears and dinosaurs generally don't use weapons; the versions in the Bestiary certainly don't, and all of their attacks are generally primary attacks and thus they don't suffer any penalty with them at all. The Lizardfolk stats in the Bestiary DOES because he's using a morningstar. He does so because the morningstar does more damage than his claw or bite, and eventually he'll be able to take extra attacks with the weapon if his Base Attack Bonus ever gets high enough.
Multiattack is much less of a MUST HAVE feat in Pathfinder. Pretty much the only ones who would want to take this feat are monsters that use a combination of manufactured weapons and natural weapons, or monsters that have a large mix of primary and secondary attacks (dragons are a good example).
For reference: The following natural attacks are primary attacks: bite, claw, gore, slam, sting, and talons.
The following natural attacks are always secondary attacks and always have a –5 penalty: hoof, tentacle, wing, pincer, tail slap, or "other." Of course, if a monster only has ONE attack, that attack's always a primary attack, no matter what. And also, some monsters break these rules of course.
Anyway, that's about it. The rules for natural attacks on pages 301–302 of the Bestiary's the best place to go to see the whole set of rules spelled out in print, I guess.
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Fast response and from up on high. I cringe at the thought if you are still at work.
This is good to know, the Lizardman had us confused and seeing as how we have a Lizardman, Bugbear and Drow (a goblin too but he is not complex in the slightest) in our Tuesday Night, Thieve's World style game we have been itching for the Bestiary.
This answers one of our longest running dilemmas and our player will be glad to know he can drop Multi-Attack since he has been using tooth and claw exclusively for awhile now.
Okay, I'm new to GM'ing having just finished up my group through Bastards of Erebus. Now, as I'm preparing for the next module, I have a question related to the natural attacks question in this thread.
If I have a creature with natural attacks at follows:
bite +8(1d6)/claws +8(1d4) (both attacks are primary attacks)
How many attacks does this creature get with a standard action using only natural attacks? Does it get 3 attacks? Or, does it only get one?
I know if it takes a full round attack it gets three?
Thank you!
Thanks Gorbacz. I thought this was how it worked in 3.5 before and now in Pathfinder. I took about a 20 year break between playing RPGs and Pathfinder so I'm trying to get all the rules figured back out.
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Basically, a lizardfolk's got three natural attacks—two claws and one bite.
...
HOWEVER, once he decides to wield a weapon, all of his natural attacks immediately become secondary attacks since the weapon itself becomes the primary attack by simple virtue of the fact that it's a weapon. The lizardfolk now makes his weapon attack at his full attack bonus, but any claw or bite attacks he makes suffer the –5 penalty for being secondary attacks. If this lizardfolk has Multiattack, that becomes a –2 penalty; Multiattack is a good feat for a lizardfolk who prefers to fight with a weapon in one hand.
...
The rules for natural attacks on pages 301–302 of the Bestiary's the best place to go to see the whole set of rules spelled out in print, I guess.
I've got a problem with this explanation. In the PFRPG Combat Section - Natural Attacks (p. 182-184):
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes....In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties."
The Lizardfolk in the Bestiary haven't got the Two Weapon Fighting feat, so it would apply a -4 penalty to the morningstar attack roll when using the weapon + natural attack combination, right?
This exact concern was raised on the Bestiary problems errata thread, here was the reply:
Ah.
Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second.
The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones.
Thanks!!
Contributor
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Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I have a follow-up question.
When a creature's description lists multiple natural attacks of the sames type (e.g., 2 claws), does that creature still need to take the full attack action when using both of those attacks? I know the full attack is required for claw/claw/bite, and I assume the same is true for claw/claw, but I'm not certain.
Thanks!
When a creature's description lists multiple natural attacks of the sames type (e.g., 2 claws), does that creature still need to take the full attack action when using both of those attacks?
yep, pretty much any time any creature makes more then one attack in a round it has to use the full attack action. (note I phrase it like that because there is bound to be an exception out there someplace).
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Yes. It is pretty much a universal rule that to make more than one attack (normally a standard action), you must use a full-attack action (uses up your standard and move action) in order to do so. There are feats, class abilities, and other ways to get around this, but that is the general rule.
Do all cratures follow the same rule in 1e, in which when making multiple attacks it must be a full round action, meaning no movement unless it can take a 5 foot step? Does this include Eidolons and Animal companions?
All creatures follow the same rules. Sometimes with additional restrictions, for example animal companions don't have all magic item slots, but but the basic rules apply to everything.
Well, since it has already been resurrected I will add my questions too. =)
I am running a Summoner level 3, so my Eidolon has 5 EvoPoints. I intend to reformat it as a biped with the following enhancements:
1 point - replace claws with pincers
2 points - extra pair of limbs
1 point - give pincers to extra limbs
1 point - give reach to the pincersQuestion 1 - Since all its attacks are pincers they all become primary or just the first one become primary and the other three remain secondary?
Question 2 - In the same vein, all its attacks got reaczh or just one pincer?
Since no one answered this, I will. Yes, if pincers are the only type of attack you have, they are primary. They should all have reach too.
They should all have reach too.
Nope, the reach evolution says "One of an eidolon's attacks" - not "type of attack" or "attack form". Thus, it really does effect only one pincer, not all of them. Confirmed by this FAQ.
At least it thematically fits that creatures that use pincers often have one bigger and longer than the other. It's a lot weirder when one of your claws is shorter than the other.