Any situation can be made impossible, designed to force something to fail.I can hide behind bushes during the day.
I can sneak past a doorway without needing shadows/cover.
I can sneak past a dog with a building between us.
In the world I live in, there do not exist creatures who just detect everyone within X feet of themselves.
I am not very sneaky, but somehow I am sneakier than Jack B. Nimble. This is designed to fail in ways that should succeed in the world where you and I keep our dice.
Not to be overly snarky, but can you sneak past a dog when there aren't foul-smelling garbage cans, engine exhaust, and the pervasive smell of strangers who pass by on a daily basis to deliver mail, fix sewer lines, and play soccer in the street filling the air, when the dog isn't conditioned to ignore strange smells because his owner scolds him for barking at company when they arrive? My limited experience with guard dogs in the country is that they'll smell/hear you coming a loooong way off.
I *do* agree that there should be rules on how effective scent is when a creature is asleep, though. A dog awake is probably going to notice someone within range of their scent almost 100% of the time if they're used to being rewarded for guarding, but a dog asleep is another matter. It suffers from not being something players can actually use all that often, and therefore seems somehow less important to be fleshed out rules-wise, I suppose. :P
I have not read the hole text but to make it clear: even dogs can't smell while they are sleeping. If a dog spots someone while sleeping, it's because of noise.
I have not read the hole text but to make it clear: even dogs can't smell while they are sleeping.
-Ruleswise this isn't the case. There's a -10 to your perception roll when you're asleep, but scent doesn't require any roll at all to use. It just happens.
IRL you can smell things in your sleep. I once woke up and grabbed a fire extinguisher only to discover that the person in the dorm next to mine was burning... well lets just cal it something else and leave it at that.
Egads, thread necromancy! Unclean! Uncleeeeeeean!
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Now, coming within 30' of the dog means you're detected by Scent. You don't stop smelling things when you're asleep, and while Scent apparently gives +8 to Perception checks on foes which can be smelled, Stealth does not hide you from scent. It's even there in the description:This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
The whole quote is:
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you
I would say that it work against every kind of sensory capability if the guy stealth know what will be used against him.
As most things in game there isn't an actual description of how the guy mowing stealthy do his ting.Almost certainly the dead squirrel trick will not work, but he could have rubbed a bit of cow dung, a smell that probably is pervasive around the farm or even the dog faeces.
That would probably foil the scent ability of the dog enough to allow him to roll his stealth against the dog perception (with the +8 bonus).
I think people read too much in the scent ability description:
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet.
Not e the description. It say can, not will. It is like a person with sight, he can see someone moving 30 feet away. Or he can fail to see him if the person is trying to hide.
Scent is usually more powerful as you have to actually take counter measures against it, but that is not a given.
I have seen dog get startled when I approached them unseen. My scent didn't warned them of my approach.
The sleeping dog in the scenario would have rolled a perception check against the rogues stealth, with the -10 for being asleep.
Note that when you are asleep or tinkering with your crossbow you can't take 10.
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
A sleeping creature is distracted and can't take 10. He must roll the dice.
Same thing for a guy doing something different from guard duty.If you are tinkering with your crossbow you are maybe taking 10 in your bowmaking skill, for sure not in your perception skill.
Egads, thread necromancy! Unclean! Uncleeeeeeean!
Effectively. I noticed how old it was only after posting.
and unless I'm completely misremembering you can't take 10 on an opposed check (even if it were more convenient and smoother that way).This is also not in the rules.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills#TOC-Taking-10
Knowing that Farmer John could notice you and shoot you, or his dog smell you and maul you constitutes an immediate danger in my book. As a matter of fact, I cannot off the top my head think of a time I'd ever let a player take 10 on a stealth check. Though I also dislike the concept of taking 10 (and 20 for that matter) and so I admit that I may be interpreting that in a bias manner. YMMV.Taking 10 and Taking 20
A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions, increasing the odds of success.
Taking 10When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
I'm pretty sure being asleep counts as a distraction.
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What I really want to know is:
How are Farmer John and Woof doing these days? Years have passed - did Jack manage to grab a chicken in all this time? Did he starve to death, or did he marry the farmer's daughter? Or did he become a vegetarian? Farmer John wouldn't really shoot poor old Woof in the head, would he?
Plus, where was the safety net of social programs to help Jack when he was in need? What kind of a heartless society turns its back on the Nimble family and forces them to turn to a life of crime? This story is an indictment of the educational system of the region Jack grew up in, and the real criminals in this scenario are stuffing themselves with chickens without having to pass any stealth rolls, save the stealth roll they passed when they bamboozled the public into accepting a feudal monarchical form of government over a system that truly represents the people it supposedly serves. Jack, Farmer John, Lizzy, Woof, and even the chickens are all innocent victims here.
I need to lie down now, but I'll post more on this subject later.
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This story is an indictment of the educational system of the region Jack grew up in, and the real criminals in this scenario are stuffing themselves with chickens without having to pass any stealth rolls, save the stealth roll they passed when they bamboozled the public into accepting a feudal monarchical form of government over a system that truly represents the people it supposedly serves.
The stealth check, I do not think it does what you think it does.
This is a blast from the past.
If you need tortured, legalistic readings of the rules to cover the situation of trying to sneak past a guard dog, then your rules need some rewriting for clarity.
You don't - if you try to sneak up on a guard dog, it will likely smell you and bark unless you chuck it some drugged meat, kill it or spend time beforehand getting it to recognise you as a friend. The elephant in the room is that if guard dogs were easy to get past, people wouldn't bother to use them and chicken farmers would go out of business with all their chickens being stolen.
I went outside and had presdigitation cast to make me smell like Fireplace coals to mask my scent
1) that is not a listed use of prestidigitation.It is, i believe, a 1st level spell.
2) The smell can make you smell like a smoke flavored halfling... but probably not something you want to do before trying to hide from guard dogs
There's teh Conceal Scent feat
While not making you invisible, upwind you pretty much have to be adjacent to the dog so he notices that there is something, yet still can't pinpoint you.
The elephant in the room is that if guard dogs were easy to get past, people wouldn't bother to use them.
[sarcasm] Yes, because all success is binary: "easy" or impossible. There is no such thing as "difficult."
The game would be much more realistic if Pathfinder were d1 based instead of d20 based.[/sarcasm]
lol, this thread is amusing. I enjoyed reading the scenarios. One thing that don't make sense to me though is that someone suggested to get around scent you just rub yourself with a dead squirrel. I don't see how that would beat it, so you smell like a dead animal now instead of a rouge, dog can still smell you.
Other than that though I'd really do it at night as suggested, rather than in broad daylight when its so easy to be spotted. I've gone against a lot of things that can beat just a plain stealth check, never thought it was a failing of Stealth, its just the way it is because they have those abilities.
The problem I have with scent is the fact that everyone thinks it pinpoints automatically when within five feet. This means no melee sneak attacks against a creature with scent. EVER. But no, it's not true; The rules specifically state;
[quote = "PRD"]
If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
It's part of the creature's move action. To make it automatic is not in the rules, is not fair to character, and is not even realistic. The creatures with scent have to sniff out the hiding character.
Okay, I can believe that scent makes a creature aware that someone is hiding in the area, but so can having object permanency in a closed room. If you see someone run into a room, you can often perceive that they're there. You could be wrong, but so can a creature with scent if the person throws an article of their clothing with their scent in the room. Being aware of someone doesn't mean you know exactly where they are. Being aware of someone doesn't prevent you from being surprised. Even if you know there's an assassin in the room, it doesn't protect you from her dropping down from the ceiling on you.
When you have two ways of reading a rule and one way completely breaks things down.. you have to wonder if the other way might not be how to go.Even if you come up with a tortured reading of Scent that makes it not stealth-beating radar, Blindsense and Blindsight specifically state that they defeat Stealth anyway. I'm not really invested in the idea that Scent is Stealth-beating radar, but if it matters, you can find my argument for the case a few pages back.
Remember, I have two main conclusions: the rules for sneaking are vague and poorly written, and Stealth as-written is rather weak. If you've got to make a distinction between "can detect" and "detects" to figure out what happens when a dude tries to sneak past a dog, then you're supporting the first very well.
Blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
- beats stealth unless you have cover that can break the LOE. Stealth may be useful if you don't want to give away your presence behind the corner by making noise. It technically allows the monster to observe you regardless of visibility for the purposes of stealth, so it's like a broad daylight within range of the ability. If there are multiple covers, then you may even move between them while hidden provided you succeed at creating distractions.
Blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
- just a more accurate variant of Blindsense, but with the same LOE limit.
The problem I have with scent is the fact that everyone thinks it pinpoints automatically when within five feet. This means no melee sneak attacks against a creature with scent. EVER. But no, it's not true; The rules specifically state;
Ok, hold on, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater there. Just because you know where a creature is doesn't stop them from being invisible. You can know that an arcane trickster with improved invisibility is right in front of you.. they STILL sneak attack you by virtue of their invisibility. Total concealment denies a dex bonus regardless of identifying the square that someone is in.
If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
It's part of the creature's move action. To make it automatic is not in the rules, is not fair to character, and is not even realistic. The creatures with scent have to sniff out the hiding character.
There's a few problems with this. First of all, you're taking the absolutely most pedantic reading of the ability possible. Seriously, why in the name of all thats polyhedral would it matter if the wolf moved within 5 feet of the rogue or the rogue moved 5 feet away from the wolf? If you're practically snout to rump with something that has scent it knows where you are.
Secondly, there are plenty of ways to move when its not your action. Ride in a cart, get thrown, get dragged, get grappled by something with reach, bullrushed etc.
Third, you can 5 foot step as a non action and fullfill the requirements.
Fourth: chances are that the scented creature already used a move action to note the invisible creature's direction, and then moved towards him to get within 5 feet, so the scented creature is out of actions. What you're saying by requiring another action is that the scent ability simply will not pinpoint a creatures square, which is completely against the rules.
The problem I have with scent is the fact that everyone thinks it pinpoints automatically when within five feet. This means no melee sneak attacks against a creature with scent. EVER. But no, it's not true; The rules specifically state;
[quote = "PRD"]
If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
It's part of the creature's move action. To make it automatic is not in the rules, is not fair to character, and is not even realistic. The creatures with scent have to sniff out the hiding character.
Okay, I can believe that scent makes a creature aware that someone is hiding in the area, but so can having object permanency in a closed room. If you see someone run into a room, you can often perceive that they're there. You could be wrong, but so can a creature with scent if the person throws an article of their clothing with their scent in the room. Being aware of someone doesn't mean you know exactly where they are. Being aware of someone doesn't prevent you from being surprised. Even if you know there's an assassin in the room, it doesn't protect you from her dropping down from the ceiling on you.
You can still throw, lunge or use a reach weapon even if the automatic detection is enforced. Since it's perception check however, they can smell you wen it's too late already ;)
I have to think that the baseline scenarios for establishing some of these skills were iconic situations from myths, fairy tales, or old school games. For Stealth, that might be sneaking through a dark dungeon corridor past a room full of bugbear guards all busy gambling. Or getting a treasured item past a snoring, sleeping giant.
[Blindsense and blindsight] beats stealth unless you have cover that can break the LOE.Only total cover breaks lines of effect.
Oh, I thought that you can crouch or something to better hide yourself behind something ;)
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When you have two ways of reading a rule and one way completely breaks things down.. you have to wonder if the other way might not be how to go.Even if you come up with a tortured reading of Scent that makes it not stealth-beating radar, Blindsense and Blindsight specifically state that they defeat Stealth anyway. I'm not really invested in the idea that Scent is Stealth-beating radar, but if it matters, you can find my argument for the case a few pages back.
Remember, I have two main conclusions: the rules for sneaking are vague and poorly written, and Stealth as-written is rather weak. If you've got to make a distinction between "can detect" and "detects" to figure out what happens when a dude tries to sneak past a dog, then you're supporting the first very well.
If I attack your I can hit you (if I beat your AC).
I don't hit you automatically.I would say that that "can" in the middle of the phrase make a lot of difference.
Same thing for:
"A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet."
Note the difference between those two phrases under the Perception skill.
"Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent."
"Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range."
I would say that the difference is glaring. One give a bonus, the other give a bonus and specify a automatic success range.
It seem you are doing a tortured reading of the rules to maintain scent as a unbeatable sense.
Blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
- just a more accurate variant of Blindsense, but with the same LOE limit.
Note how keen smell is cited as one of the way to get blindense. But if you have that level of smelling capability you get the blindsense ability, not simply the scent ability.
Or sneaking up and stealing something from Smaug's hoard!
Wait, no.
From what I remember Smayug was asleep as an added bonus Bilbo was using a powerful artifact putting him partially on another plane.
Give me a ring of etherealness and even I could have a decent possibility to teal from a sleeping dragon.
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I thought I killed this thread, took all its stuff, and sacrificed all the valuables to Almighty Asmodeus?
Common sense?
In a board where people argue that firing a black powder guns don't give away your position?I think that finding common sense here as a perception DC of not less than 40.
Or it should be Sense motive?
Start new thread abut that fundamental question.
Non sequitur:
ooc to change colour to the text? It make it cyan? and it is possible to select other colours with different tags?
Huh. This is an interesting thread (though by the sounds of things, needs to be laid to rest, but I cant resist)
First, I agree with the above that scent needs a perception check. The evidence is pretty solid.
... But there's one fundamental problem with the OP, if you ask me. This is how I would handle things.
Jack isn't sure what's around back behind the house and doesn't want to take a chance, so he ducks down low and creeps up to the hedges...and is instantly spotted by Farmer John. Whoops. He barely makes it back to the cornfield without catching a crossbow bolt in the hindquarters.
Now, the rogue is aware of Farmer John. Farmer John is not aware of the rogue. Thus, having failed his first perception check, I think it's reasonable the rogue slips into cover unnoticed. If our rogue doesnt get the surprise round, he likely wins initiative anyway.
Once he's slipped through the 5 feet of open ground and into the cover of the barn, things are a bit simpler. If you're feeling particularly mean, the good farmer, (who miraculously has time to reload and fire his weapon in one action in the surprise round) would have caught a glimpse of something. Roll another opposed stealth check.
Now, unless his suspicion hasnt been piqued, he probably wont get off of his chair. If he does go to investigate, the Rogue can roll another stealth check or create a diversion with bluff, cawing like a crow and sending him into the cornfield, arms flailing and cursing wildly.
... damn. Now I want to play a rogue.
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I thought I killed this thread, took all its stuff, and sacrificed all the valuables to Almighty Asmodeus?
Usually, I support this position. Stealth rules are the exception. This is not common sense. It's really contradictory and confusing. I humbly request that the scads of people confused about it not be treated as though we're missing some obvious thing. We're not.
Common sense dictates that the rules cannot possibly work like they do in the original post, so everyone adapts them to their game, either consciously or unconsciously. However, everyone adapts them to their own game in a variety of different ways. Just look at the amount of disagreement about how Scent works, how Hide in Plain Sight work, and how creating a distraction works. If you can remember or want to do archive diving, there were also a fair few debates about how sniping or trying to sneak up on someone to stab them in the back works. Stealth ends up working a different way at every table, which is ridiculous for a ruleset as involved and wordy as the one we have.
The big question is: So what?
Or, to make it sound less facetious, "What now?"Should we petition for errata?
Argue more on the boards?
Set up a standards committee to formalize a PRD reform policy?
I'll admit... I loved reading this thread. It's interesting and informative. The thread is valuable, in that it gives new board members something to make them think about how to run stealth at their table. But to continue the debate seems (to me) pointless sophism.
If it could be stickied or archived and highlighted somehow, that would be best.
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The elephant in the room is that if guard dogs were easy to get past, people wouldn't bother to use them and chicken farmers would go out of business with all their chickens being stolen.The elephant in the room is that at least two classes have "sneaking" as a schtick, but it's stopped cold by obnoxiously-common stealth-beating radar.
Yes, guard dogs are a pain to get around without alerting them, and this is true IRL. Should it NOT be true in Pathfinder 'just because'? Aren't skills meant to represent mundane abilities, not magical powers?
Fact is if there is a guard dog involved you have to use a bit of imagination instead of just a skill roll. They are not impossible to beat, however, they just require Sneaky McSneakness to use his brain.
What will the dog do if it smells him? Bark. The same if it smells a cat, fox, whatever. The farmer can only do something if he is around, and he has to go look for whatever the dog is barking about - he doesn't know where or what it is, he just knows something is out there. I can think of half a dozen ways that the thief can score some drummers, they just don't come down to a straight stealth roll.
If you think about it, the dog is like an alarm spell: useful, but it doesn't tell you anything beyond that something is there.
But have we settled the question of whether the sleeping dog / chicken / farmer can take 10 on his perception checks yet? Lots of people of the years seemed to think that was the key to the entire debate.
I am thinking yes, because you can take 10 when not in a threatening situation. Sleep is generally not threatening, by its nature. Someone attempting to use perception while sleeping just adds +10 to the DC. Then there is also the DC mod for distance.
Is scent an auto detect or does it just allow for a perception roll against anyone who steps within scent range? Can one use stealth to hide ones scent?
The elephant in the room is that if guard dogs were easy to get past, people wouldn't bother to use them and chicken farmers would go out of business with all their chickens being stolen.The elephant in the room is that at least two classes have "sneaking" as a schtick, but it's stopped cold by obnoxiously-common stealth-beating radar.
The real elephant in the room is that a level 5 thief should not have trouble making quick work of knocking out a single dozy dog...
The other thing that refuses to be mentioned is that just because you're noticed doesn't mean you're found. At that point you're playing hide and seek. And someone playing an intelligent rogue would probably use decoys. Of course, since there are no rules for decoys (as far as I know), I guess people tend to forget that it's possible.
I think the +8 bonus to Perception checks from Scent represents guard dogs being difficult to get around quite well.
No need for any of this auto-detect radar nonsense so many people seem to be confused about.
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Moral of the story: don't send a human rogue to do a halfling's job.
First you send the human.
Then, while all are reconditioning/lynching the hero/decoy, you send the halfling.
ELSE, DOOM!
But have we settled the question of whether the sleeping dog / chicken / farmer can take 10 on his perception checks yet? Lots of people of the years seemed to think that was the key to the entire debate.I am thinking yes, because you can take 10 when not in a threatening situation. Sleep is generally not threatening, by its nature. Someone attempting to use perception while sleeping just adds +10 to the DC. Then there is also the DC mod for distance.
Is scent an auto detect or does it just allow for a perception roll against anyone who steps within scent range? Can one use stealth to hide ones scent?
Sleep may not be threatening, but one is also prevented from taking 10 by distracting situations, and sleep is usually pretty distracting for me. (Then again, scientists tell me that's mostly because I dream. Do dogs dream? Do androids? What about chickens? :P)
Based on the reasoning up in Diego Rossi's post, since scent's interaction with perception lacks any language that resembles the latter portion of the Tremorsense segment, I don't think that Scent auto-detects, just that it represents the ability of a creature to use scent as a detection sense beyond a few inches away from their nose (in the absence of any air currents). So yes, just like hearing allows a perception check to notice noises, Scent allows a perception check to notice scents.
As far as using Stealth to hide one's scent, consider the following, keeping in mind that Scent is another means of making a perception check:
Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.
Now, I'm sure that there are arguments in favor of regarding the statement, "This skill covers hiding and moving silently," as an indication that the Stealth skill can only be used to hide and move silently. This is too restrictive a reading, in my opinion.
(In 1787, there was as sizable block of delegates to the Constitutional Convention who were initially opposed to the bill of rights. A member of the Georgia delegation had this to say, by way of opposition: "If we list a set of rights, some fools in the future are going to claim that people are entitled only to those rights enumerated, and no others.")
Just because a list of things that can be done with Stealth exists does not automatically imply that such a list is exclusive.
Stealth indicates that, by having ranks, the character is "skilled at avoiding detection," and that the character's "Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice [them]." To me, this indicates that Stealth is a viable mechanism for avoiding Perception, regardless of what kind of sense is being used to percieve.
In my current group, our Gm interpreted the rules to be that if you can have a high enough stealth skill, then you are "stealth-ed". Meaning that as long as you don't do something stupid, like attacking a guard (or anyone for that matter) then your no longer concealed. As an example, there is a character in the group that is a cohort, Level 9 with a stealth of 67 (thanks greatly to our GM allowing this person to buy said items that add to stealth, and also giving them a couple of items didn't help).
So, for scaling a wall, he didn't have to do a stealth check, though a climb check was required several times. Walking through town, past plenty of people, sneaking into the castle via climbing a wall and onto the roof, and walking around the castle. Basically, he ruled that if the skill in question is psychotically high, then no rolls need to be made due to nobody (maids, guards, etc) being able to break that. The only rolls he did were climb checks when he was climbing something, outside that, he just wandered through the city, free to do as he pleased.
Now, if he was dumb enough to take that and try to steal, then yes, he would get some HUGE negatives, depending on the situation.
The real question seems to be not "does Stealth work?" but "does scent auto-detect?"