AMiB, could you re-run your scenario using the new Blog Stealth rules? I want to see how it goes differently.
Why doesn't he just use his +double digit bluff to convince the farmer he's a rooster and get all the free chicken he wants?
Why be sneaky?
The real question seems to be not "does Stealth work?" but "does scent auto-detect?"Well, you still can't sneak past an open doorway, or hide behind a bush in bright daylight. What the rules are for sneaking up on a sleeping person is kind of vague, too.
And my problem is that you can interpret it that way, and I interpret the rules about distraction to allow it, and they are so vague that niether of us can be disproven, and this discrepancy causes errors.
The real question seems to be not "does Stealth work?" but "does scent auto-detect?"Well, you still can't sneak past an open doorway, or hide behind a bush in bright daylight. What the rules are for sneaking up on a sleeping person is kind of vague, too.
Well that's a no-brainer: if I stand staring constantly at an open doorway, no way is somebody going to sneak past it without me seeing them unless they find a way of getting cover.
On the other hand, there are several options for making sure the person is looking somewhere else when you try. For example you could use a distraction (use a thrown rock to make a noise, throw a chunk of meat or release a cat to distract the dog, wait for the farmer to see the trail of smoke where you left a smouldering ember that will set his cornfield on fire etc) to get his attention elsewhere. Once that is done, THEN your Stealth check indicates if you got across the area without attracting his attention back to it.
Anyone trying to 'sneak' by walking past an open area with no cover has definitely used Int as their dump-stat, and the rules for skills have done their job by representing the mundane challenge in a way consistent with the way the real world works.
Anyone trying to 'sneak' by walking past an open area with no cover has definitely used Int as their dump-stat, and the rules for skills have done their job by representing the mundane challenge in a way consistent with the way the real world works.The problem is that I can totally sneak past a doorway in real life, and I'm not particularly agile or stealthy. It's silly to say that any PC who tries to do so is a hopelessly deluded fool.
You are telling me that if I am looking right at a doorway, you can walk across it and not be seen by me WITHOUT distracting me to look elsewhere a moment? Forgive me, but I find myself sceptical. Would you care to go into more detail?
You are telling me that if I am looking right at a doorway, you can walk across it and not be seen by me WITHOUT distracting me to look elsewhere a moment? Forgive me, but I find myself sceptical. Would you care to go into more detail?Yes. Because nobody is so vigilant as to stare at that doorway forever.
Translation: You wait until I am distracted by something else.
Right now, if you're not actively distracted, you have perfect 360 vigilance in every direction as far as you can see/sense, as well.
When you are actively looking, yes, I imagine you do. So as in real life, you wait until the sentry is distracted by something or loses interest.
The problem is that I can totally sneak past a doorway in real life, and I'm not particularly agile or stealthy. It's silly to say that any PC who tries to do so is a hopelessly deluded fool.
But not if someone is staring directly at that door, say, "readied to perceive." If they're actively watching a single point (or say a 45-60 degree field of vision), I'd rule they interrupt your turn when you leave the cover of the wall and stand in the doorway.
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You are telling me that if I am looking right at a doorway, you can walk across it and not be seen by me WITHOUT distracting me to look elsewhere a moment? Forgive me, but I find myself sceptical. Would you care to go into more detail?
Why would the farmer be staring at an open space in the hedge for hours and hours?
When you're sitting at your computer, reading or typing away, can someone sneak past the open doorway or window behind you unnoticed? How about beside you? How skilled in subterfuge is the average person who's snuck past you, or snuck up on you?
The point of a stealth versus perception roll is to simulate the timing and movement of the sneak, versus the vigilance of the observer (plus other situational factors). In the case of the open space, it's the ability of the rogue to use a mix of luck, opportunity and timing to go from hedge to hedge at the moment the farmer isn't paying attention.
Hellcat Stealth, Hide in plain sight, levitate,and Master spy arch type. In order to be decent at stealth you need to devote your character to it.
I think the +8 bonus to Perception checks from Scent represents guard dogs being difficult to get around quite well.
No need for any of this auto-detect radar nonsense so many people seem to be confused about.
Its not nonsense, its what the rules say.
You get a perception check to notice something isn't an ability, its what everything else does. And when you make that check you notice the creature, you don't get a vaugee sense of "they're over there somewhere". You see them. Scent, as you're reading it, isn't an ability its a HINDRANCE.
Also, scent remains unchanged from the 3.5 version.. where there was no perception check. It was spot (sight) or listen (hearing). It was its own sense and it works on its own rules. I don't see how you can shift from that to some disability just because spot and listen were merged into the same skill.
Hellcat Stealth, Hide in plain sight, levitate,and Master spy arch type. In order to be decent at stealth you need to devote your character to it.
Or just cast invisibility and/or dimension door. An 8th level caster is a WAY better thief than a 14th level rogue.
That may not bother most people, but it sort of bugs the hell out of me.
I agree with wolf. Scent is auto-detect. Once the rogue enters scent range, the dog would then notice something is there. If the rogue isn't plainly visible, the dog would make a move action to note the direction of the rogue.
I am infinetely confused as to how upon reading the scent rules you can come to this conclusion. Can <> automatic success.
[I am infinetely confused as to how upon reading the scent rules you can come to this conclusion. Can <> automatic success.
Poorly-written rules + no full-time technical writing editor = endless arguments on what they "obviously" mean.
I am infinetely confused as to how upon reading the scent rules you can come to this conclusion. Can <> automatic success.
Yes, it does if there's no roll mentioned.
Here's the problem. If you're supposed to read that as "the creature can make a perception roll and if successful knows that there's a creature somewhere in range" then you haven't given the creature a special ability, you've given them a HINDRANCE... because EVERYONE can make a perception roll to try to spot a sneaking creature and if they're successful they don't go "hey, there's something near me" they say "Hey you! what are you doing behind my chicken coop!"
Secondly, the "you can" language is frequently, and almost ubiquitously attached to things you can do automatically.
Extra Bombs
You can throw more bombs per day.
Extra RageYou can use your rage ability more than normal
Sudden Shift (Sp): In the blink of an eye, you can appear somewhere else. As an immediate action, after you are missed by a melee attack, you can teleport up to 10 feet to a space that you can see
Cease Concentration on SpellYou can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.
None of these require rolls.
It was auto detect in 3.5 and the language hasn't changed.
No matter how sneaky you are, your stealth check, alone, won't make you smell any less. Scent states that the creature can detect opponents within 30ft by sense of smell.
Similar to tremorsense, no matter how sneaky you are, a creature with scent will know something's nearby.
EDIT ELABORATION: A sleeping dog, in reality, can smell carbon monoxide... then wake up and start flipping its s~%+ about it. Making dogs valuable home safety devices.
Yes, but all this does is give the creature the ability to make a perception check against you using a different sense, negating bonuses that said sense bypasses (concealment, cover, invisibility).
Can <> automatic success.
Tremmorsense is not worded the same. It actually says "can automatically pinpoint" This is different.
Yes, but all this does is give the creature the ability to make a perception check against you using a different sense, negating bonuses that said sense bypasses (concealment, cover, invisibility).
That isn't what it says either. What sense you use for perception is irrelevant, it all works the same. Technically, someone using invisibility to sneak around a corner is quieter than someone without it.
Tremmorsense is not worded the same. It actually says "can automatically detect." This is different.
Scent is already different. All you automatically detect is the PRESENCE of something. You have no idea where they are. With blindsense you know what square they're standing in, and with blindSIGHT you know they're sticking their tongue out at you.
I am infinetely confused as to how upon reading the scent rules you can come to this conclusion. Can <> automatic success.Yes, it does if there's no roll mentioned.
Here's the problem. If you're supposed to read that as "the creature can make a perception roll and if successful knows that there's a creature somewhere in range" then you haven't given the creature a special ability, you've given them a HINDRANCE... because EVERYONE can make a perception roll to try to spot a sneaking creature and if they're successful they don't go "hey, there's something near me" they say "Hey you! what are you doing behind my chicken coop!"
Secondly, the "you can" language is frequently, and almost ubiquitously attached to things you can do automatically.
Extra Bombs
You can throw more bombs per day.
Extra RageYou can use your rage ability more than normal
Sudden Shift (Sp): In the blink of an eye, you can appear somewhere else. As an immediate action, after you are missed by a melee attack, you can teleport up to 10 feet to a space that you can see
Cease Concentration on SpellYou can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.
None of these require rolls.
It was auto detect in 3.5 and the language hasn't changed.
Except a normal person is not able to use scent to do tell that there is an intruder. He is restricted to senses that are powerful enough to detect them, sight a hearing. Scent adds an extra sense to that list. It doesn't make anything automatic, nor should it. Dogs can be suprized too.
Except a normal person is not able to use scent to do tell that there is an intruder.
What would the advantage of being able to do so be?
He is restricted to senses that are powerful enough to detect them, sight a hearing. Scent adds an extra sense to that list.
Which is useless, because perception already covers all 5 senses. What you're saying is that scent doesn't actually do anything, which is a very odd reading of the rules. Your ONLY evidence for this is the idea that "Can" means "can with a roll" which isn't evidence at all given the number of times the rules use "Can" for something you can do without rolling.
It doesn't make anything automatic, nor should it. Dogs can be suprized too.
Sure can. If you see a dog stay 30 feet away from it or come from downwind.
Hellcat Stealth, Hide in plain sight, levitate,and Master spy arch type. In order to be decent at stealth you need to devote your character to it.Or just cast invisibility and/or dimension door. An 8th level caster is a WAY better thief than a 14th level rogue.
That may not bother most people, but it sort of bugs the hell out of me.
Oh absolutely.
Okay Sorry but it say this is Answered in the FAQ is that true I looked and can't find, a link. also has the OP run the same scenario with the "new" trial rules of stealth?