Is there any way to increase the rate of fire of a sling or halfling sling staff. It is a move action to load which leaves a standard action to fire. This is similar to a light crossbow, but the crossbow can use the Rapid Reload feat to reduce the reload time to a free action. Is there any way to do this for a sling or halfling sling staff.
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Your DM can make a special feat, but it doesn't make a ton of sense given how one has to use a sling. You've got to load the rock into your sling and then give it a twirl to build up momentum to deal damage.
The crossbows just need to have practice loading quickly, bolt, lever and go.
Also, this question has been asked about 400 times so far, no offense.
Not that I am aware of. I always house rule that manyshot works with slings though (of course that makes rapid shot a bit of a waste, unless you are swinging two slings).
Your DM can make a special feat, but it doesn't make a ton of sense given how one has to use a sling. You've got to load the rock into your sling and then give it a twirl to build up momentum to deal damage.
The crossbows just need to have practice loading quickly, bolt, lever and go.
Also, this question has been asked about 400 times so far, no offense.
According to the Sling(Weapon) article on Wikipedia:
For a conventional throw, one does not make multiple rotations of the sling, a proper slinging action requires just one rapid rotation. The more times you swing it, the less likely it is that you'll hit your target.
(Some slingers will rotate the sling slowly once or twice to seat the projectile in the cradle.)
One makes an overhand throw, using the sling to extend one's arm. The motion is similar to bowling a cricket ball. This is relatively accurate, instinctive and quite powerful. One faces 60 degrees away from the target, with one's weak hand closest to the target. The coordinated motion is to move every part of the body, legs, waist, shoulders, arms, elbows and wrist in the direction of the target in order to add as much speed as possible to the stone. One releases the projectile near the top of the swing, where the projectile will proceed roughly parallel to the surface of the earth.
and...
Conventionally, the loop of the retention cord is placed around a finger of the strong hand. Several projectiles may be held in the weak hand. After the release, an expert will continue the motion. The cradle will catch around a stone held out with the weak hand, so that the end of the release cord swings back to the strong hand retaining the loop. Just after the knot begins to swing, slightly before the knot reaches the strong hand, one drops or throws the projectile toward the ground with the weak hand, starting into the next release. Some people braid the end of the release cord around a weight to help perform this maneuver. With this method, a skillful user can throw an aimed stone every few seconds in a cyclic coordinated movement, until the weak hand is empty.
This actually seems easier to reload and fire than the crossbow with practice.
...oh yea, I did search both Rules and the whole message board for Sling and Staff Sling and didn't get a single hit. If you could point me at those 400 threads I would appreciate it. :-)
Not that I am aware of. I always house rule that manyshot works with slings though (of course that makes rapid shot a bit of a waste, unless you are swinging two slings).
Manyshot would not work in this case because it specifies "When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows." Nor would Rapid Shot work with a sling or staff sling as it specifies that it only works when "making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon..."
Unless I am missing something, when using RAW the sling and staff sling are pretty much useless after you get your second attack.
Well, slings are grouped in with throwing weapons in some areas, so some people I know on here let quickdraw allow them to be fired at full RoF.
I've heard a lot of folks who allow Quick Draw to work for slingers to get full ROF.
Well, slings are grouped in with throwing weapons in some areas, so some people I know on here let quickdraw allow them to be fired at full RoF.
That kind of makes sense. You are throwing the bullet. You are just using the sling to extend the lever of your arm. I'll run this past my DM and see what he thinks.
Thanks.
{Edit}
I just checked the equipment chapter and slings are grouped with Projectile Weapons, not Thrown Weapons, so no help there.
I am looking for something RAW, not house rule.
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...oh yea, I did search both Rules and the whole message board for Sling and Staff Sling and didn't get a single hit. If you could point me at those 400 threads I would appreciate it. :-)
Well I can try...
Should Rapid Shot Apply ot All Move Action Ranged Weapons
(Rant) Rapid Reload Redacted, Or the Halfling Anti-Defamation Thread
Crazy Crossbow Gunslinger Headache
A Simple Gunslinger Looking for Help
Okay, maybe they drift a little bit towards the end but it has come up before. Think the Rant one is the big one that sticks out in my head when it comes to rapid reload and slings. 7, 400. Not that far off when you think about it on a cosmic scale. Probably a few more in here somewhere, and then we could toss on WotC's board, and like the Giant in the Playground board.
Looks like more people care about firearms and rapid reload then slings. x.x
So rapid reload questions abound it would seem like to me. Like I said, no offense to you, just mentioning that it'd come up before is all.
Not that I am aware of. I always house rule that manyshot works with slings though (of course that makes rapid shot a bit of a waste, unless you are swinging two slings).Manyshot would not work in this case because it specifies "When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows." Nor would Rapid Shot work with a sling or staff sling as it specifies that it only works when "making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon..."
Unless I am missing something, when using RAW the sling and staff sling are pretty much useless after you get your second attack.
Yeah you are missing something.
"I always house rule that ..."
House Rule =/= RAW
<SNIP>
Okay, maybe they drift a little bit towards the end but it has come up before. Think the Rant one is the big one that sticks out in my head when it comes to rapid reload and slings. 7, 400. Not that far off when you think about it on a cosmic scale. Probably a few more in here somewhere, and then we could toss on WotC's board, and like the Giant in the Playground board.
Looks like more people care...
No offence taken taken. I did search the Rules forum and the Message Boards as a whole for Sling and Staff Sling before starting this thread and the only hits I received were about 20 user profiles where characters had slings. Maybe the search tool is broken because I remember seeing someone make the same observation in a thread about another issue.
Thanks for the links. They should make interesting reading.
Yeah you are missing something.
"I always house rule that ..."
House Rule =/= RAW
No, I didn't miss that, which is why I mentioned RAW in my next post. I realize that you can house rule that pigs fly, if the DM agrees. I am the player, not the DM and I was was hoping to bring something to the table from the official rules.
No, I didn't miss that, which is why I mentioned RAW in my next post. I realize that you can house rule that pigs fly, if the DM agrees. I am the player, not the DM and I was was hoping to bring something to the table from the official rules.Yeah you are missing something.
"I always house rule that ..."
House Rule =/= RAW
Well I answered your query in the first part of my original post.
"Not that I am aware of."As far as I can tell you are out of luck. End of story. If you have absolutely no access to houserules then there isn't anything for you to do but pick a better weapon. Good luck.
Which also makes the discussion of real world slings irrelevant. They are not RAW, so don't apply either.
Going over the rules last night, it occurred to me that using the Vital Strike chain might be the next best thing. It would take three feats, but a small character with the Halfling Staff Sling would get
1d6 + Str, etc at BAB 1-5
2d6 + Str, etc at BAB 6-10
3d6 + Str, etc at BAB 11-15
4d6 + Str, etc at BAB 16+.
...all with one to-hit roll and still have a move action.
Thoughts?
No, I didn't miss that, which is why I mentioned RAW in my next post. I realize that you can house rule that pigs fly, if the DM agrees. I am the player, not the DM and I was was hoping to bring something to the table from the official rules.
Well if it helps when I was in chat I asked James Jacobs about this and he said quick draw would work fine. I know, not an official answer but good enough for me.
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It could be an intentional balancing feature in the game. You do get to add your strength bonus after all.
20 strength fighter wielding a +2 flame bursting sling with all the fighter feats and the rapid shooting stuff would be kind of ridiculous in the end, wouldn't it? Hurling flaming sling stones that deal like 1d4+10 and a 1d6 fire damage would be a little strange to see. Plus it'd be like that times however many attacks they'd get.
Why would that be silly? Slings are quite deadly. Remember, these aren't slingshots you're talking about, they're war slings. A slinger who knows what he's doing can fire more shots farther with more penetrating power than an archer with a non-compound shortbow. And that's in real life.
It could be an intentional balancing feature in the game. You do get to add your strength bonus after all.
20 strength fighter wielding a +2 flame bursting sling with all the fighter feats and the rapid shooting stuff would be kind of ridiculous in the end, wouldn't it? Hurling flaming sling stones that deal like 1d4+10 and a 1d6 fire damage would be a little strange to see. Plus it'd be like that times however many attacks they'd get.
It's ok for the composite long-bow but broken for the sling?
It's ok for the composite long-bow but broken for the sling?It could be an intentional balancing feature in the game. You do get to add your strength bonus after all.
20 strength fighter wielding a +2 flame bursting sling with all the fighter feats and the rapid shooting stuff would be kind of ridiculous in the end, wouldn't it? Hurling flaming sling stones that deal like 1d4+10 and a 1d6 fire damage would be a little strange to see. Plus it'd be like that times however many attacks they'd get.
Simple vs. Martial, Free vs. hundreds of gold (for the strength mod), limited ammunition vs. rocks (in emergencies of course).
Rocks are not suitable sling ammo. Here's another little comparison for you: bullets at 0.5 pounds each, arrows at 0.15 pounds each.
Simple vs. Martial, Free vs. hundreds of gold (for the strength mod), limited ammunition vs. rocks (in emergencies of course).
I kind of agree with you on the simple versus martial thing but the quickdraw feat tax is more than enough to compensate for that (also the sling staff is exotic with the same limitations). The cost is trivial at all but the lowest levels and even more trivial once you start enhancing them. Rocks do even less damage and isn't there an attack penalty for using them?
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20 strength fighter wielding a +2 flame bursting sling with all the fighter feats and the rapid shooting stuff would be kind of ridiculous in the end, wouldn't it? Hurling flaming sling stones that deal like 1d4+10 and a 1d6 fire damage would be a little strange to see. Plus it'd be like that times however many attacks they'd get.
I want to do this now.
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It could be an intentional balancing feature in the game. You do get to add your strength bonus after all.
20 strength fighter wielding a +2 flame bursting sling with all the fighter feats and the rapid shooting stuff would be kind of ridiculous in the end, wouldn't it? Hurling flaming sling stones that deal like 1d4+10 and a 1d6 fire damage would be a little strange to see. Plus it'd be like that times however many attacks they'd get.
Uhm... None of the rapid fire/rapid reload feats work with slings. That is the point of this thread. Using RAW the sling fires once per round. Period. You can't ever fire it at your Full Attack speed.
As for your point, there is no reason that a 20 Str fighter, or a 30 Str fighter for that matter, can't use his full strength bonus using a bow. It's just 100 gp per strength bonus. And bows can use all the rapid and multi-fire feats.
16th level, 20 Str fighter wielding a Str +5, Ench + 2 Flaming Burst composite long bow with point blank shot, rapid shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization, Greater Weapon Specialazation:
1d8 +12 +1d6 fire times 5 arrows.
16th level, 20 Str fighter wielding a + 2 Flaming Burst crossbow with rapid reload, point blank shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization, Greater Weapon Specialazation:
1d4 +7 +1d6 fire times four bolts
16th level, 20 Str fighter wielding a + 2 Flaming Burst sling with point blank shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization, Greater Weapon Specialazation:
1d4 +12 +1d6 fire. Once. Per round.
Balanced? I don't think so.
Rocks do even less damage and isn't there an attack penalty for using them?
You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.
You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.Rocks do even less damage and isn't there an attack penalty for using them?
Yeah, that's it.
Simple vs. Martial, Free vs. hundreds of gold (for the strength mod), limited ammunition vs. rocks (in emergencies of course).
Composite Longbow: 100gp
Masterwork: 300gpStr Cut +5: 500gp
Ench +2: 8000gp
Total: 8900gp
Sling: Free
Masterwork: 300gp
Ench +2 8000gp
Total: 8300gp
Difference: 600gp or the bow is 13% more
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Uhm... None of the rapid fire/rapid reload feats work with slings. That is the point of this thread. Using RAW the sling fires once per round. Period. You can't ever fire it at your Full Attack speed.
Yes, which is why it might be an intentional mechanic of why rapid reload doesn't work with slings and only with crossbows? I think you might have misread my post somehow?
:( there goes the halfling with the sling idea.
In the case of slings i wish they would have treated it like bows just for the fun factor. Slings have less range, does less damage, and was one of the few range weapons that clerics and halfling could use well.
Guess it is a good thing that elves are my favorit class ( other than dwarfs ).
Apologies for mixing in - especially if this discussion is done.
However, the discussion in this regard is the Halfling Sling Staff, which is intrinsically different from the basic sling. In so far as the mechanics of the weapon go - even though there is no official errata concerning it - I don't see where it wouldn't be possible to use the same feat path as the Crossbowman uses in the newer Ranger weapon's paths.
Let's be fair - it is a single weapon and fairly unique, giving the Halfling species a cultural missile weapon that does a decent amount of damage, especially for its size. Rapid Reload - since it is a sling staff and would, therefore, require the same repetitious patterns to reload as a crossbow, there is no reason that this feat cannot be used. Nor is there any reason that a reasonable substitution can't be made so that Sling Staff Mastery can't be substituted thereby closing the gap even farther.
In fact, it is an easier reach to assign these feats to a sling staff than to a crossbow which has more mechanical moving parts and less likely to cooperate than the simpler device. Nor do I see why there should be official rules for what is a fairly rarely used piece of equipment. That is, after all, what GMs are for.
He's a backup character but I built a Halfling Ranger (for the Serpent's Skull) and, having come upon the Staff Sling in the books, felt that I had to explore it. If it was a burning question then it should be brought before the powers that be so that it can be settled - once and for all, errataed within an inch of its life.
If Quick Draw will allow you to put a certain number of knives in the air a round or fire a bow as fast as you can pull an arrow then it isn't a leap for it to allow you to drop a metal bullet into a piece of leather.
If Rapid Reload allows you to drop a stick onto another stick and fire it into a target then, once again, it isn't a leap to believe it will allow you to place a bullet in a piece of leather on the end of a stick and let it go. There are a lot of things in Pathfinder that don't fit into easy categories and they haven't all come to the attention of them that is in charge.
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:( there goes the halfling with the sling idea.
In the case of slings i wish they would have treated it like bows just for the fun factor. Slings have less range, does less damage, and was one of the few range weapons that clerics and halfling could use well.
Guess it is a good thing that elves are my favorit class ( other than dwarfs ).
Since this thread halflings now have a warslinger racial trait that gives them full rate of fire with slings. You have to give up sure-footed but it's worth the trade.
Still very difficult to compete with composite bow but it actually makes slingers workable.
In case anyone missed it this thread is over a year old so you are replying to the corpse of a thread.
Two feats in the Halflings of Glorian deal with this very issue.
Slightly off topic, but was there ever an official call on whether enhancing a halfling sling staff effected both the sling and the club part or would they have to be enhanced individually?
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Two feats in the Halflings of Glorian deal with this very issue.That too. Though the racial trait I mentioned above is a better way of getting it if you have the opportunity.
I am puzzled that halflings of golarion came after the APG and brought forward this two feat solution to slings, whereas the APG already had a cheap way to make it a free action via the warslinger trait. These two feats (ammo drop and juggle load) appear to me absolutely useless at this point. Why would a halfling fighter NOT take the warslinger trait and waste two feats on this??? (the trait replaces the sure footed halfling racial power, which is not a big cost if you ask me)
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I am puzzled that halflings of golarion came after the APG and brought forward this two feat solution to slings, whereas the APG already had a cheap way to make it a free action via the warslinger trait. These two feats (ammo drop and juggle load) appear to me absolutely useless at this point. Why would a halfling fighter NOT take the warslinger trait and waste two feats on this??? (the trait replaces the sure footed halfling racial power, which is not a big cost if you ask me)Two feats in the Halflings of Glorian deal with this very issue.That too. Though the racial trait I mentioned above is a better way of getting it if you have the opportunity.
Perhaps for people who made their characters before the APG was released?
I think the feats are a pretty expensive way to pick up full rate of fire also.
I am puzzled that halflings of golarion came after the APG and brought forward this two feat solution to slings, whereas the APG already had a cheap way to make it a free action via the warslinger trait.
They did something similar with giving half-orcs a bite attack with either the Toothy racial trait or the Razortusk feat. More choices.
One could certainly question why the slinger choices aren't seemingly on par with each other.
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to add insult to injury, a 1st level halfling fighter needs to waste one of his two skill points to take the prereq 1 rank in Sleight of Hand before taking the two feats ammo drop and juggle load... granted, juggle load is probably not required until 5th level, but still... the warslinger trait will allow the same halfling fighter to skip this two-feat tax and take, say, point blank shot and precise shot at 1st level...
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I am puzzled that halflings of golarion came after the APG and brought forward this two feat solution to slings, whereas the APG already had a cheap way to make it a free action via the warslinger trait.They did something similar with giving half-orcs a bite attack with either the Toothy racial trait or the Razortusk feat. More choices.
One could certainly question why the slinger choices aren't seemingly on par with each other.
Hmm, the tusks choices were much more equatable. You could actually get them three ways, Racial Trait, Race Trait, or Feat.
I do agree with the general idea that more choices are good but in this case it's not a very balanced call.
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Ok, I've had my daily dose of dill pickles and can now read properly:
A) warslinger lets you load your sling as a free action but it still requires two hands and it still provokes AoOs.
B) ammo drop and juggle load lets you load your sling as a free action AND lets you do that with one hand only AND no longer provokes AoO. This means a halfling fighter with ammo drop and juggle load can freakin walk around with a heavy shield +5 AND a sling AND shoot at full BAB without provoking AoOs AND IF USING A HALFLING SLING STAFF, he still threatens as it's considered a club.... add weapon specialization to this and you've got a 80ft ranged weapon with x3 crit with +2 damage + STR bonus AND a s$++ty melee weapon although STILL with +2 damage + STR...
Ammo drop and juggle load clearly wins for the 16 STR and 16 DEX type build...
Warslinger still "ok" in light of this, but only good for back row ranged support...
AMMO DROP and JUGGLE LOAD take the cake: I know it's two feats, but you can have a fullplate/heavy shield halfling tank with this.... this is seriouly awesome.
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here are the extra ones in the APG: they don't take a lot of room at all!! could we have the halfling one in Ultimate Combat? :) :) :)
Crossbow: If the ranger selects crossbow style, he can
choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat
style feat: Deadly Aim, Focused Shot, Precise Shot, and
Rapid Reload. At 6th level, he adds Crossbow Mastery and
Improved Precise Shot to the list. At 10th level, he adds
Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run to the list.
Mounted Combat: If the ranger selects mounted combat,
he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a
combat style feat: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-
By Attack, and Trick Riding*. At 6th level, he adds Mounted
Shield* and Spirited Charge to the list. At 10th level, he adds
Mounted Skirmisher* and Unseat to the list.
Natural Weapon: If the ranger selects natural weapon
style, he can choose from the following list whenever he
gains a combat style feat: Aspect of the Beast*, Improved
Natural Weapon**, Rending Claws*, and Weapon Focus. At
6th level, he adds Eldritch Fangs* and Vital Strike to the
list. At 10th level, he adds Multiattack** and Improved Vital
Strike to the list.
Two-Handed Weapon: If the ranger selects two-handed
weapon style, he can choose from the following list whenever
he gains a combat style feat: Cleave, Power Attack, Pushing
Assault*, and Shield of Swings*. At 6th level, he adds Furious
Focus* and Great Cleave to the list. At 10th level, he adds
Dreadful Carnage* and Improved Sunder to the list.
Weapon and Shield: If the ranger selects weapon and
shield style, he can choose from the following list whenever
he gains a combat style feat: Improved Shield Bash, Shield
Focus, Shield Proficiency, and Shield Slam. At 6th level, he
adds Saving Shield* and Shield Master to the list. At 10th
level, he adds Bashing Finish* and Greater Shield Focus
to the list.
Also, Halflings of Golarion says this:
Ranger: Halflings make excellent rangers thanks
to their agility and their peaceful natures, which allow
them to put wild animals at ease with a little practice.
Most halfling rangers are experts with the sling, and
many worship Erastil or Desna.
The halfling ranger sling combat style is begging to be born! :)
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Ok, I've had pickles... and thus can read better now... am I seeing this right???
Weapon and Shield: If the ranger selects weapon and
shield style, he can choose from the following list whenever
he gains a combat style feat: Improved Shield Bash, Shield
Focus, Shield Proficiency, and Shield Slam. At 6th level, he
adds Saving Shield* and to the list. At 10th
level, he adds Bashing Finish* and Greater Shield Focus
to the list.
WHAT??? Shield Master is the most prereq feat intensive feat in the game, normally available for a fighter at level 11, and they're giving it to the ranger at level 6... with NO NEED for SHIELD SLAM, IMPROVED SHIELD BASH and TWF as prereq???? this now means you can have a level 6 STR 21 DEX 7 half-orc ranger with SHIELD MASTER?!?!? please wake me up if I'm dreaming this!!
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Fair enough, there is definitely an advantage to loading one handed unprovoked. Personally, I'd still go warslinger and use the feats for deadly aim and rapidshot (and later the halfling feat that gets you bonus damage based on size.
I guess it depends on how important a heavy shield is to you. I generally like skills based characters so they aren't even proficient in heavy shields.
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Fair enough, there is definitely an advantage to loading one handed unprovoked. Personally, I'd still go warslinger and use the feats for deadly aim and rapidshot (and later the halfling feat that gets you bonus damage based on size.
I guess it depends on how important a heavy shield is to you. I generally like skills based characters so they aren't even proficient in heavy shields.
I'd still take the trait at 1st level, with point blank shot, and then ammo drop at 2nd level if it was available as a ranger combat style... then rapid shot as 3rd level feat (usable right away thanks to the trait...), precise shot at 5th, then juggle load as the second combat style feat at 6th (just in time to be able to take advantage of the second iterative attack without an AoO...)
That would work for me, halfling-wise...
Take the TWF feat at some point, and you can wield a staff sling in each hand: BAB 6/1 in the main hand, BAB 6 in the off-hand as a stitched sling (treated as a "light flail" according to the weapon's description, so it's a light weapon)
You can't shoot the stitched sling, but you can do a melee attack with it: the beauty is that it uses the staff sling proficiency I think, in regards to weapon focus/specialization...
Basically, you need to stitch the staff sling that's in the off-hand in order to make it a light weapon. But now you have a halfling that can do two main ranged attack plus a melee offhand OR two main melee attacks (staff sling in the main hand used as a club) plus a melee offhand... all with the same staff sling weapon focus / specialization feats... nice.................
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Q: can you have a TWF + Rapid Shot combo for a total of -4 on all attacks? I know it's a lot of penalties, but a 1st level human fighter gets 3 feats... point blank shot, rapid shot, two-weapon fighting... using thrown weapons... 3 attacks per round at level 1 is not bad at all...... throw something with a big crit range, find a trait that lets you quick draw without taking the actual feat, and you may just have found a way to "Rule Them All" :)
EDIT: the starknife is both melee and ranged... d3 as opposed to staff sling's d6 though... (assuming small PC)
(PS: can you shoot twice a round with a bow PLUS whack someone via armor spike in the off hand at level 1 via the above three listed feats?)