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I get up from the table and go find a DM that wants to run 3.5/Pathfinder not AD&D/Pathfinder.


There would be a problem with an existing character that is going take his first level in Wizard using "found" or purchased spell book. He cannot automatically memorize spells from any spell book other than one he has written himself.

From the PRGRD:
"Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing."


Treantmonk wrote:
Grond123 wrote:


An animal with a 6 intelligence can learn 6 tricks so Combat Training takes up its entire allotment of normal tricks.

This I assume is a typo.

You could likely train an animal with an INT of 6 to read your written commands.

Correct. I meant an animal with a 2 intelligence......


Mistwalker wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
What would the point be to changing it to a move action if the monk could not also take a standard action afterward ?
You can't take actions in 3.5 after DDing either, so why should you with Monk AS?

Dimension Door is a standard action. Abundant Step is a move action. Why the difference if you can't do anything else after the monk takes the step?

I have a problem with the idea that the only reason is so that the monk can do a single attack and then flee.

Because you could take a Standard Action and then AS away. With the spell, casting is your standard action for that round.

What you can't do is perform any Swift, Immediate or Free actions until the start of your next turn after you AS or DD.


AlanM wrote:

Is it automatically assumed that animal companions have certain tricks, or do we have to teach them specific tricks first?

I ask because I want to be able to ride my animal companion into battle, but I want to be sure for PFS.

Also does Wild Empathy for ranger and druid stack?

From the PRGRD: "...a druid's or ranger's animal companion knows one or more bonus tricks, which don't count against the normal limit on tricks known and don't require any training time or Handle Animal checks to teach."

This means that an animal companion has the bonus tricks when the PC bonds with it.

However.....

Combat Training is not a trick, it is a Special Purpose that is made up of 6 tricks: Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Guard, and Heel.

An animal with a 6 intelligence can learn 6 tricks so Combat Training takes up its entire allotment of normal tricks.

Unless the PC is a 15th level Druid or 19th level Ranger, an animal companion could not "come with" Combat Training. The PC could assign the bonus tricks that the animal would have to some of the tricks that make up Combat Training and then spend the time needed to train the rest from its allotment of normal tricks, at which point the animal would be combat trained and could be ridden into battle.

Also, this would not apply to a war horse, war pony or riding dog. These animals are assumed to have already been taught combat training by someone else.


I agree with why you can't do it with RAW. My post was answering DM_Blake as to why you would want to.


DM_Blake wrote:
But then I ask, why? What can you possibly gain using a charge and an overrun together.

I can tell you why. You have 30 feet of movement and the Kobold Shaman is 45 feet away. The only thing standing between you and him is a Kobold Warrior. You really want to get at that Shaman. You charge the Shaman, Overrunning the Warrior on the way, and get there this round and take one attack on the Shaman.


delabarre wrote:
gcat wrote:
This would exclude using an Overrun right? So basically this character just needs to use his normal move action to get to the opponent and then use a normal attack...

Yes -- if any other creature is blocking the line of charge, then you can't charge, even if you could successfully overrun the blocker. The clause "or as part of a charge" in the Overrun description is referring to overrunning the charge target (not any defensive linemen).

Note that this is the kind of rule that a specific feat could override.

Except that you can't Overrun your Charge target. The rule for Charge says that "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. " This means that you must stop when you reach your opponent and cannot move through their space to Overrun them.

It seems to me that the rules for Charge and Overrun contradict each other and there should be clarification and possibly an errata.


LazarX wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:

The rules are vague. I too saw a custserv reply that wizards in a PrC did get the two spells per level.

In the end it's going to be the DM's choice, though I don't think I've ever heard of a DM that didn't allow the 2 spells/level.

As I recall the question was put up in the old 3.x days Sage Advice replied that your spellcasting advances so you get spells known normally as per the base class would advance. the No other features refers to things specifically like familliar ability (although familliar HD and hit points continue to improve as normal) advancement, bonus feats, special qualities not relating to the basic spellcasting advancement.

Otherwise with your call, sorcerers would never get another spell AT ALL if they took a prestige class.

Which is why it specifies ....spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster).....

Pathfinder is very specific in this particular rule and if they had intened for Wizards to the the two free spells it would say. "....spells known(if she is a spontaneous spellcaster or two free spells if a wizard)...."


KaeYoss wrote:

I consider the 2 free spells to be an integral part of wizard spellcasting. Thus, when you gain an effective level from a PrC, you get the extra spell.

Otherwise, you might get in trouble if you advance a level in the middle of a dungeon or somewhere else that is far away from the nearest wizard scroll.

That's one thing I hated about earlier editions, and some games that made a crappy job of implementing the rules (i.e. IWD2): If you play a wizard, chances are that you might go long times without getting to use your new abilities, because you won't find any spells.

The rules are very specific that you only get the two free spells when you take a level in Wizard. From the PRGRD-Magic section: Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook.

If you are taking a level in a PrC, such as Arcane Trickster, you are spending the time that you would be researching the new "free" spells learning the other abilities of the PrC so you don't get the "free" spells. Part of the price you pay.

Remember that you can write spells into your Spell book from scrolls and other caster's spell books before you reach the level required to cast them. The difficulty is a bit higher though. If you are going to be taking a level in a PrC that grants a caster level you could prepare ahead either copy the spells or buy scrolls of the spells that you will want to take. You would need to buy the spells anyway whether you took your level in a major city or a dungeon.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:

I agree, but it brings up a related question I have.

Does a wizard in a PrC would get spells added to their spellbook when they gain levels in their prestige class?

A literal reading "At each new wizard level..." seems to indicate not. Additionally, the prestige class rules explicitly call out sorcerers gain additional spells known for sorcerer but doesn't mention wizards add new spells to their spellbooks.

According to the rules should the wizard/ PrC add new spells to their book on leveling? How do you run your games?

For the answer, look to the PcC. Ex. Arcane Tricksters says: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spell casting.

Seems clear to me that they would not get the two new spells added to the spell book for free, since it specifies that only spontaneous casters get new spells known.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
On the subject of spells, there aren't any swift spells (Short of Quicken) in the core rulebook. You'll find on these forums that people tend to freak the *!@# out when you start offering material that isn't Core. Personally, I think that's counter intuitive because Pathfinder RPG had a stated goal of being compatible with 3.5 and 3.0.

<Gets out soapbox>

Actually, this is the Rules Questions forum. Speaking for myself, when I ask a question here, it's because I want to know the answer within the scope of the Pathfinder rules.

Having played D&D regularly since 1980, I am very aware of the rules in 3.x. I also know that Pathfinder is designed to fit very well with those rules and that they can be used when they are not superseded by the Pathfinder rules. Also, our campaign regularly uses house rules so I know that option exists.

So, please don't answer my Pathfinder Rules question with v3.x rules and comments about how house rules can fix it.

Thank you.

<Puts soapbox away>


caith wrote:

Had a funny question about some wording in the Wizard section:

Does the 2 new spells per level mean:
2 new spells per level per available spell level?
Or 2 new spells per level, altogether?

The PRGFD says "At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook."

Seems pretty clear to me.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
The example given in the feat is Weapon Focus (Ray) so I assume that you also need Weapon Focus (Orb) for orbs and Weapon Focus (Touch) for melee touch attacks.

Makes sense. Just like you need Weapon Focus: Longsword, Weapon Focus: Heavy Mace, Weapon Focus: Scythe.


Shadowspawn1965 wrote:

It has occurred to me that there is no game dynamic to explain what benefits (if any) there are to gaining a critical hit when you perform a special attack such as Disarm or Trip.

If you score a critical in normal combat you do additional damage, however what happens if you score a critical when attempting to Disarm or Trip an opponent? I know that it counts as an automatic success, but that seems like it isn't enough reward for getting the critical. Any thoughts?

One benefit would be that if you are using a bursting weapon when trying to sunder, the weapon would burst causing more damage to what you are trying to sunder, and possibly the wielder if you have Greater Sunder.


Luminiere Solas wrote:

smite may be a static plus. but it comes from a class feature. favored enemy isn't multipled. sneak attack isn't. they are above a weapons normal ability.

if one can multiply smite evil with a crit. that means sneak attack and favored enemy should recieve the same bonuses. smite not only deals +20 damage. it ignores Damage reduction. putting it on par with sneak attack. if one is multiplied on a crit. so should the other. 10d6 is only +35 damage. at level 20. and situational. hard to set up too. if pallies smite which effects pracitcally everything, especially baddies gets to multiply. so should sneak attack. the rogue is frailer, is 1 step behind in B.A.B. requires more teamwork than the pally. the rogue needs the multipliers more than the paladin. or don't let any extra damage class feature multiply. and let sneak attack effect every attack in a volley.

From the Combat section of the PRGRD: A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together.

Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

Anything that is a number bonus (+Str, + Enh bonus of weapon, +2 for Favored Enemy, +2 for Weapon Spec, + Paladin Level for smite) is multiplied by the Critical Multiplier of the weapon.

Bonus dice such as Flaming, Sneak Attack and Vital Strike are not.


A Man In Black wrote:

Unfortunately, D&D3e's stealth rules are incredibly punishing in this sort of situation. Unless someone is actually standing in (or immediately adjacent to) an area of concealment, as soon as you leave concealment you're no longer hidden. (And, thus, combat generally begins, assuming you have a weapon out and are pointing it at them.) It's something that's totally awesome in both real life and fiction that 3e just doesn't simulate.

In order to Vital Strike someone in the surprise round, you need to start the surprise round in melee reach of them with your weapon in hand. (Alternately, you could have some sort of swift-action movement, like a quickened movement spell or a handful of non-core abilities.) Barring tower shield cheese, this means that they're in melee reach of concealment, they are blind, you have Hide in Plain Sight, or you are invisible.

Vital Strike is a Standard Action. You can move or use a Move Action before the attack. With Quick Draw, "You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action."

So there you are, standing 10' away totally unarmed talking to someone. Suddenly, surprise, you have a weapon in your hand. They are surprised, and flat-footed. You make a 5' step and attack them once using Vital Strike. Since they are denied their Dex bonus due to being flat-footed you get Sneak Attack damage.

The next round you tumble to the other side of them and ready an action to attack as soon as you have flank. Your Barbarian cousin charges in from what seemed to be a safe 80' away. As soon as she is in position you attack with Vital Strike and Sneak Attack a second time and your cousin takes him down before he can even react.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
Lokie wrote:

I myself kinda like the Oversized Two-weapon feat, Double Slash for the full strength bonus on off hand, combined with Power Attack.

Two-weapon fighting with two Bastard Swords with only the normal -2 on the attacks is pretty nice. Take the additional penalty for Power Attack against lightly armored foes to really blow them away.

I can just see it now.. the dwarven TWF ranger with dual dwarven waraxes... the elven mage with.. expeditious retreat? where's he going.

I have played a Dwarven Fighter using Dewarven Waraxes with TWF chain for several years. He just made 21st level.

He's the Grond that is my avitar's namesake. Even with the -4 to hit he's as devastating as HIS namesake.


Majuba wrote:
Simple vs. Martial, Free vs. hundreds of gold (for the strength mod), limited ammunition vs. rocks (in emergencies of course).

Composite Longbow: 100gp

Masterwork: 300gp
Str Cut +5: 500gp
Ench +2: 8000gp
Total: 8900gp

Sling: Free
Masterwork: 300gp
Ench +2 8000gp
Total: 8300gp

Difference: 600gp or the bow is 13% more


Dennis da Ogre wrote:

Rocks do even less damage and isn't there an attack penalty for using them?

You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.


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Morgen wrote:

It could be an intentional balancing feature in the game. You do get to add your strength bonus after all.

20 strength fighter wielding a +2 flame bursting sling with all the fighter feats and the rapid shooting stuff would be kind of ridiculous in the end, wouldn't it? Hurling flaming sling stones that deal like 1d4+10 and a 1d6 fire damage would be a little strange to see. Plus it'd be like that times however many attacks they'd get.

Uhm... None of the rapid fire/rapid reload feats work with slings. That is the point of this thread. Using RAW the sling fires once per round. Period. You can't ever fire it at your Full Attack speed.

As for your point, there is no reason that a 20 Str fighter, or a 30 Str fighter for that matter, can't use his full strength bonus using a bow. It's just 100 gp per strength bonus. And bows can use all the rapid and multi-fire feats.

16th level, 20 Str fighter wielding a Str +5, Ench + 2 Flaming Burst composite long bow with point blank shot, rapid shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization, Greater Weapon Specialazation:

1d8 +12 +1d6 fire times 5 arrows.

16th level, 20 Str fighter wielding a + 2 Flaming Burst crossbow with rapid reload, point blank shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization, Greater Weapon Specialazation:

1d4 +7 +1d6 fire times four bolts

16th level, 20 Str fighter wielding a + 2 Flaming Burst sling with point blank shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization, Greater Weapon Specialazation:

1d4 +12 +1d6 fire. Once. Per round.

Balanced? I don't think so.


Going over the rules last night, it occurred to me that using the Vital Strike chain might be the next best thing. It would take three feats, but a small character with the Halfling Staff Sling would get

1d6 + Str, etc at BAB 1-5
2d6 + Str, etc at BAB 6-10
3d6 + Str, etc at BAB 11-15
4d6 + Str, etc at BAB 16+.

...all with one to-hit roll and still have a move action.

Thoughts?


Quote:

Yeah you are missing something.

"I always house rule that ..."

House Rule =/= RAW

No, I didn't miss that, which is why I mentioned RAW in my next post. I realize that you can house rule that pigs fly, if the DM agrees. I am the player, not the DM and I was was hoping to bring something to the table from the official rules.


<SNIP>

Quote:

Okay, maybe they drift a little bit towards the end but it has come up before. Think the Rant one is the big one that sticks out in my head when it comes to rapid reload and slings. 7, 400. Not that far off when you think about it on a cosmic scale. Probably a few more in here somewhere, and then we could toss on WotC's board, and like the Giant in the Playground board.

Looks like more people care...

No offence taken taken. I did search the Rules forum and the Message Boards as a whole for Sling and Staff Sling before starting this thread and the only hits I received were about 20 user profiles where characters had slings. Maybe the search tool is broken because I remember seeing someone make the same observation in a thread about another issue.

Thanks for the links. They should make interesting reading.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Well, slings are grouped in with throwing weapons in some areas, so some people I know on here let quickdraw allow them to be fired at full RoF.

That kind of makes sense. You are throwing the bullet. You are just using the sling to extend the lever of your arm. I'll run this past my DM and see what he thinks.

Thanks.

{Edit}
I just checked the equipment chapter and slings are grouped with Projectile Weapons, not Thrown Weapons, so no help there.

I am looking for something RAW, not house rule.


pres man wrote:
Not that I am aware of. I always house rule that manyshot works with slings though (of course that makes rapid shot a bit of a waste, unless you are swinging two slings).

Manyshot would not work in this case because it specifies "When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows." Nor would Rapid Shot work with a sling or staff sling as it specifies that it only works when "making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon..."

Unless I am missing something, when using RAW the sling and staff sling are pretty much useless after you get your second attack.


Morgen wrote:

Your DM can make a special feat, but it doesn't make a ton of sense given how one has to use a sling. You've got to load the rock into your sling and then give it a twirl to build up momentum to deal damage.

The crossbows just need to have practice loading quickly, bolt, lever and go.

Also, this question has been asked about 400 times so far, no offense.

According to the Sling(Weapon) article on Wikipedia:

For a conventional throw, one does not make multiple rotations of the sling, a proper slinging action requires just one rapid rotation. The more times you swing it, the less likely it is that you'll hit your target.
(Some slingers will rotate the sling slowly once or twice to seat the projectile in the cradle.)
One makes an overhand throw, using the sling to extend one's arm. The motion is similar to bowling a cricket ball. This is relatively accurate, instinctive and quite powerful. One faces 60 degrees away from the target, with one's weak hand closest to the target. The coordinated motion is to move every part of the body, legs, waist, shoulders, arms, elbows and wrist in the direction of the target in order to add as much speed as possible to the stone. One releases the projectile near the top of the swing, where the projectile will proceed roughly parallel to the surface of the earth.

and...

Conventionally, the loop of the retention cord is placed around a finger of the strong hand. Several projectiles may be held in the weak hand. After the release, an expert will continue the motion. The cradle will catch around a stone held out with the weak hand, so that the end of the release cord swings back to the strong hand retaining the loop. Just after the knot begins to swing, slightly before the knot reaches the strong hand, one drops or throws the projectile toward the ground with the weak hand, starting into the next release. Some people braid the end of the release cord around a weight to help perform this maneuver. With this method, a skillful user can throw an aimed stone every few seconds in a cyclic coordinated movement, until the weak hand is empty.

This actually seems easier to reload and fire than the crossbow with practice.

...oh yea, I did search both Rules and the whole message board for Sling and Staff Sling and didn't get a single hit. If you could point me at those 400 threads I would appreciate it. :-)


Is there any way to increase the rate of fire of a sling or halfling sling staff. It is a move action to load which leaves a standard action to fire. This is similar to a light crossbow, but the crossbow can use the Rapid Reload feat to reduce the reload time to a free action. Is there any way to do this for a sling or halfling sling staff.


Dan Turek wrote:

Does that mean with Uncanny Dodge you CAN make attacks of opportunity even if you haven't acted yet in the first round of combat without Combat Reflexes?

From the Flat Footed section of the Combat rules (pg.178): "Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat."


We ordered from Amazon in early August with 2nd day shipping. The arrival date was set for tomorrow: 8/21. No change this morning so we sent an e-mail to Amazon for a status update. They replied that they are still waiting on their shipment from their distributer.

Canceled the order and have located a single copy each at two different FLGSs. They are holding and I will pick up both tonight.

Lesson Learned.