Recently my GM and I were discussing the validity of a Half-Elf raised amongst elves getting the same weapon proficiencies as an Elf. Does anyone see why this would not be the case?
If so they probably shouldn't get a trait that is more closely aligned with their human side... say the skill focus, or the versatility trait.
which is better elf or half-elf cause am trying to see which one would be a great charater.
Recently my GM and I were discussing the validity of a Half-Elf raised amongst elves getting the same weapon proficiencies as an Elf. Does anyone see why this would not be the case?
I would suggest trading it for the skill focus feat at first level. Or if you and your GM feel the half elf is a little underpowered just grant it as a bonus trait.
Wouldn´t the trait adopted represent that especifically?
Actually, the adopted "trait" was designed to allow you to select a racial "trait" from the traits supplement, not one of the racial traits from the Core book.
Confusing enough? I agree, but I asked this specific question to James in Chat and he set me straight.
which is better elf or half-elf cause am trying to see which one would be a great charater.
Depends on what you want. Something multi classed? Probably half-elf. A wizard that cuts through spell resistance like it wasn't even there with a good Dex? Probably elf.
Yeah I'm all for trading in something, maybe like sacrificing a trait, but it really seems as if the half-elf is getting screwed. Seriously how does this make any sense. A half-elf raised amongst elves got to do anything but play with the same weapons as the other elves. While the elves played with longswords and thin blades, the half-elf got to play with....simple weapons?!??!
I'm creating a LVL 4 bard, but wanted weapon finesse and a thin blade or a court blade. Having to spend a feat to get a racial weapon or half a racial weapon seemed pretty lame, especially considering how the half-orc was done.
Yeah I'm all for trading in something, maybe like sacrificing a trait, but it really seems as if the half-elf is getting screwed. Seriously how does this make any sense. A half-elf raised amongst elves got to do anything but play with the same weapons as the other elves. While the elves played with longswords and thin blades, the half-elf got to play with....simple weapons?!??!
I'm creating a LVL 4 bard, but wanted weapon finesse and a thin blade or a court blade. Having to spend a feat to get a racial weapon or half a racial weapon seemed pretty lame, especially considering how the half-orc was done.
I think that's supposed to represent the lack of acceptance by Elven culture of a half-breed? As in they don't get the same privileged upbringing as a regular elf.
Yeah I'm all for trading in something, maybe like sacrificing a trait, but it really seems as if the half-elf is getting screwed. Seriously how does this make any sense. A half-elf raised amongst elves got to do anything but play with the same weapons as the other elves. While the elves played with longswords and thin blades, the half-elf got to play with....simple weapons?!??!
I'm creating a LVL 4 bard, but wanted weapon finesse and a thin blade or a court blade. Having to spend a feat to get a racial weapon or half a racial weapon seemed pretty lame, especially considering how the half-orc was done.
Whoa whoa whoa.
Screwed? The half elf? HA!
Multitalented: or as I like to call it "I can have my cake and eat it too"
Then the Keen Senses... just as good as an elves.
Skill Focus: Or "How I see the invisible man at level 10" (perception)
+2 to any one stat you want... nothing wrong with that!
Low light vision: same as elves
Elven Immunities: Same as elves
So they don't take the con hit, they get everything but the magic and weapon skills, and to trade they get skill focus (nice in pathfinder) and the ability to choose two favored classes.
In addition rogues get rapier, short sword, hand crossbow (exotic weapon), short sword and short bows.
Not a bad weapon list.
Trading wise I would either: Trade the hand crossbow for a the exotic you want, or trade the multitalented for the weapon training.
But Half elves have it good in pathfinder.
I'm not saying the half-elf got screwed overall, I only mean in reference to the weapon proficiencies.
It's not a big problem overall but I just figured it was something I should get for free, not have to sacrifice any other racial ability. A trait seems like a fair exchange but some might argue that's too little.
Parker I like your suggestion. That seems fair and reasonable.
I figured I would sacrifice "multi-talented" for the weapon proficiencies.
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I still see the Weapon Familiarity of elves as closer to a feat. It includes more numerous and diverse types of weapons than any trait I have seen so far.
"longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon" sounds like way more than a trait should grant.
Consider that this race feature essentially grants a non Barbarian/Fighters/Paladin/Ranger the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat 4 times and includes several Exotic Weapon Proficiencies as well (anything "elven").
Sorry, I should have been more explicit - I meant for the trait to apply to the martial weapons only. The exotics are too much for a trait, I agree absolutely.
Consider that this race feature essentially grants a non Barbarian/Fighters/Paladin/Ranger the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat 4 times and includes several Exotic Weapon Proficiencies as well (anything "elven").
This is not right. Elves treat exotics with "Elf" in the name as martial. So an elf fighter or ranger with this trait gets proficiencies with the exotics but the bard does not.
Something else to consider: The starting age for an elf is 110 + 4d6 minimum. The starting age for a half-elf is 20 + 1d6 minimum. A 110-plus-4d6-year-old half-elf is Old.
This gives elves a much longer time to have acquired those racial weapon proficiencies.
That brings up the regular sticking point about elven development. Is 110 physical or mental maturity (according to elven standards)? If it is physical and what takes a human 14 years takes an elf 110....how is the race not extinct given their enemies?;)
My group usually goes with the statement from Races of the Wild....elves are phsyically developed at 25, the 110 is mental developed(comparable to human in real life considred physically maturity at 18 usually, but mental development is at about 25).
Elves is Stooopid is why. Consider goblin's are fully mature at 5 years old. Goblins is smartest and learn fastests. Hoomans is dumb but elvis are much dumber than even hoomins.
Yeah Dennis I agree with you. The whole 4 feats for free argument is pretty weak in my opinion. If the weapons were that powerful, the elves would not get them automatically. The weapons aren't really all that good as it is. Just flavor really.
Elves is Stooopid is why. Consider goblin's are fully mature at 5 years old. Goblins is smartest and learn fastests. Hoomans is dumb but elvis are much dumber than even hoomins.That brings up the regular sticking point about elven development. Is 110 physical or mental maturity (according to elven standards)? If it is physical and what takes a human 14 years takes an elf 110....how is the race not extinct given their enemies?;)
My group usually goes with the statement from Races of the Wild....elves are phsyically developed at 25, the 110 is mental developed(comparable to human in real life considred physically maturity at 18 usually, but mental development is at about 25).
LoL, all too true.
I hate to think that an ordinary human can be considered mature enough to join the army, vote, drink, gamble, or get married, in 1/4 the time that it takes a brilliant elf (built in +2 INT modifier) to figure the same things out.
But, I hate the idea that a 10-year-old elf is still only barely two feet tall and has only just figured out how to walk (still falls down a lot despite the +2 DEX modifier). And a 50-year-old elf is still barely four feet tall and still thinks Naruto is cool and girls have cooties.
Trying to reconcile the elvish biology, or sociology, or sociobiology, to the extant to understand why they can be smarter than humans but still take 6x as long to grow up is an effort in futility.
I'd suggest just houseruling that an elf is fully mature around age 30 or so, both mentally and physically, and be done with it.
Elves are like trees, mighty and majestic. Humans are weeds- much, much tougher, and much quicker to proliferate.
As for development, yes. Elves are fairy folk remember, and elfchildren remain elfchildren for a hundred years. Ask an elf and she'll say she only wishes it could be longer.
Occorse, I also say that they gain experience even as children (a hundred years is a hundred years after all), so even jouvanile elves have two or three character levels. 1st level PCs, in this case, would just be elves who have been particularly foppish or lazy up to this point.
Back on topic, swapping skill focus for weapon familiarity would be fine. You're trading one handy-but-subpar feat for another, basically.
Personally, I'd remove the multiple favoured classes in exchange for the extra weapon proficiencies: the flexibility of being able to choose two favoured classes instead of the one favoured class that everyone else picks seems to be more from the human side than the elf side, and losing one feat (skill focus) in exchange for gaining essentially four feats (each proficiency would have to be taken as a separate feat normally) seems a little unbalanced.
If trading in skill focus for 4 martial proficiencies seems a bit unbalanced, getting to choose two favoured classes is the father of unbalancedness.
Especially if the character never wants to multiclass.
Wouldn´t the trait adopted represent that especifically?
Adopted refers to other character traits (i.e. the optional rules from Companions, "race traits"), not to racial traits (i.e. the racial "features" the core rules give every characters).
which is better elf or half-elf cause am trying to see which one would be a great charater.
Both. Both are better. It all depends on what character do you want to play. Do you want to play an elf or a half-elf?
Longsword proficiency is not impressive; it just has a slightly better crit range than a comparable simple weapon. How many clerics or sorcerers do you know who have taken Improved Critical for their mace?
For some characters (clerics with middling dex) the longbow is a great proficiency; significantly better than a sling at least (for others, though, the crossbow is better anyway). The important thing to remember here is that the characters who are gaining these weapons aren't fighter- elf fighters already get longswords, and elf wizards are unlikely to care that much.
Taken together though, yes, elven weapon proficiencies are probably worth a feat, and should be swapped for a feat-sized benefit (i.e, Skill Focus).
Weylin you are right. The longbow is better than the crossbow except in cases where the shooter has no strength bonus and the appropriate feats.
Weyling, a light repeating crossbow for a rogue is an excellent weapon. He can sit back and fire off multiple shots at his target.
Add in two weapon fighting and rapid shot, he's shooting off 4 shots a round at lvl 3.
(Missfire)
Weylin you are right. The longbow is better than the crossbow except in cases where the shooter has no strength bonus and the appropriate feats.That makes it a factor of the user not the weapon itself though.
Even with rapid reload, the composite longbow still beats out both crossbows from where i look at it.
with the feat and no strength, the crossbow deals the same damage with the same rate, but at only 72% of the range.
the heavy crossbow only goes to one shot per round doing only slightly more damage.
For user based factors, unless the concept for the character is "crossbowman", the feat would be better spent augmenting what is already an advantageous weapon instead of bringing one less advantageous weapons on par with it and leaving well with a still vastly inferior rate of fire (especially with iterative attacks).
Sorry, I fumbled my last post.
What I said is that th epeople gaining these free proficiencies aren't fighters or rangers, they're wizards and clerics.
If you don't have a strength bonus, a heavy crossbow is better than a composite longbow. If you have a strength penalty (very common for wizards), then even a light crossbow beats a composite longbow, at least in terms of damage.
Carry two (both loaded) if you want, but it's unlikely that you'll have to make two consecutive attacks with them anyway- that's what telekenetic fist is for. This is a backup weapon.
.....
But this begins to stray away from my original point. Longbows, especially Composite Long Bows are at face value a superior ranged weapon and definitely not in a category of "The weapons aren't really all that good as it is".
They are obviously superior, but not anything game breaking. Range doesn't rally factor into the equation because in my 15 years of gaming, I've never seen a GM draw map so big we had to figure out range increments for anything other than a thrown weapon and the point blank shot feat. The rate of fire is something I might consider to be a little bonus, but not exactly HUGE.
"The weapons aren't really all that good as it is". simply referred to the fact they aren't something to threaten game balance.
for the record we are dealing with a bard, who already gets the shortbow proficiency. adding in a longbow only adds some range and 1 point of damage
Something else to consider: The starting age for an elf is 110 + 4d6 minimum. The starting age for a half-elf is 20 + 1d6 minimum. A 110-plus-4d6-year-old half-elf is Old.
This gives elves a much longer time to have acquired those racial weapon proficiencies.
+1
+1Something else to consider: The starting age for an elf is 110 + 4d6 minimum. The starting age for a half-elf is 20 + 1d6 minimum. A 110-plus-4d6-year-old half-elf is Old.
This gives elves a much longer time to have acquired those racial weapon proficiencies.
The what about half-orcs getting racial weapon proficiency. That totally defeats your argument
What about the half-orcs getting racial weapon proficiency. That totally defeats your argument+1Something else to consider: The starting age for an elf is 110 + 4d6 minimum. The starting age for a half-elf is 20 + 1d6 minimum. A 110-plus-4d6-year-old half-elf is Old.
This gives elves a much longer time to have acquired those racial weapon proficiencies.
Those weapon are large two-handed weapons. The general build of your average half-orc (height and width of shoulders etc.) lends itself to them swinging around several pounds of steel. Those are also just (two) martial weapons neither of which is exotic.
Its not the long, ever growing, some exotic, list of weapons the elves gain.
*Minor thread-jack*
Speaking of Half-orc proficiencies thought. That brings to mind a Universalist or Transmuter Wizard Half-orc with a Falchion Weapon Bond and Arcane Strike. Mmmmm.
*/End thread-jack*
Those weapon are large two-handed weapons. The general build of your average half-orc (height and width of shoulders etc.) lends itself to them swinging around several pounds of steel. Those are also just (two) martial weapons neither of which is exotic.
Its not the long, ever growing, some exotic, list of weapons the elves gain.
I'm asking for one weapon and that's the Elven curve blade. I don't see how that's unreasonable.
I'm asking for one weapon and that's the Elven curve blade. I don't see how that's unreasonable.
Those weapon are large two-handed weapons. The general build of your average half-orc (height and width of shoulders etc.) lends itself to them swinging around several pounds of steel. Those are also just (two) martial weapons neither of which is exotic.
Its not the long, ever growing, some exotic, list of weapons the elves gain.
The elven curve blade is a VERY nice weapon and even says in its description that it is RARE. IMHO you should need to either be elven... or take the EWP feat. But thats just my opinion.
If you DM rules that its ok for you to swap out your racial Half-Elf Skill Focus feat... for EWP (Elven Curveblade) that would also be a acceptable exchange. (A feat for a feat)
But this "bidness" of swapping a half-feat for EWP ... kinda fishy bidness by my book.
Again... only my opinion. :)