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I was looking through the Pathfinder Campaign setting, and in it, they listed guns. This immediately made me really happy, as I'm a huge fan of firearms in RP settings. But as I read them more and more, it seems like they're vastly underpowered.
The reason I even check'd them out was because I saw on another thread how nice range'd attacking could be, and so I figured "I don't like how using a bow looks, but I bet it'd be really cool with a gun!" and started to work on it. But then I look at the rifle, and see that after each shot, I'd need to reload it (using a move action to do so), so that was out. And it seems to be the way with most of the guns, excluding the revolver (the gun I'm going to try using to build with now)
The weapons themselves aren't really that good, especially for exotic weapons, especially if you're using the Misfire rules. The Scatter Gun is really the only one I could see being really powerful at low levels, and it cost 2200g, so I doubt many characters who could abuse it would really be able to afford it reasonably. And the rifle is the only one I could see arguing with that it's broken (1d8 dmg, 19-20 3x crit) and even that can only be fired once a round with a 3000+g price tag.
I do like the Gunslinger feat that allows you not to provoke when using them in melee, but is there any real way to allow you to use a gun in the same capacity as a bow (modified bracers of archery, allowing Manyshot with a gun) that's actually in the rules? I can respect that the game was made with bows in mind, but can we get some gun love or at least a faster way to reload so I can get my full attack action with something besides a revolver?
Additionally, I do recall reading somewhere about alternate firearm rules, though I don't recall whether they were in the campaign book, or elsewhere, but bit it was using the same d20 system, so searching should yield a result.
I was looking through the Pathfinder Campaign setting, and in it, they listed guns. This immediately made me really happy, as I'm a huge fan of firearms in RP settings. But as I read them more and more, it seems like they're vastly underpowered.
The reason I even check'd them out was because I saw on another thread how nice range'd attacking could be, and so I figured "I don't like how using a bow looks, but I bet it'd be really cool with a gun!" and started to work on it. But then I look at the rifle, and see that after each shot, I'd need to reload it (using a move action to do so), so that was out. And it seems to be the way with most of the guns, excluding the revolver (the gun I'm going to try using to build with now)
The weapons themselves aren't really that good, especially for exotic weapons, especially if you're using the Misfire rules. The Scatter Gun is really the only one I could see being really powerful at low levels, and it cost 2200g, so I doubt many characters who could abuse it would really be able to afford it reasonably. And the rifle is the only one I could see arguing with that it's broken (1d8 dmg, 19-20 3x crit) and even that can only be fired once a round with a 3000+g price tag.
I do like the Gunslinger feat that allows you not to provoke when using them in melee, but is there any real way to allow you to use a gun in the same capacity as a bow (modified bracers of archery, allowing Manyshot with a gun) that's actually in the rules? I can respect that the game was made with bows in mind, but can we get some gun love or at least a faster way to reload so I can get my full attack action with something besides a revolver?
You can take rapid reload as previously suggested for lots of shots per round. Given that ammo is expensive you may want to take a look at the vital strike tree and combine it up with deadly aim.
A wizard could start with a masterwork rifle as their arcane bond :)
Given their range they could be great weapons for sniping from a long way off, as long as you're 200 feet from your target there's no penalty for sniping. If your target is distracted, i.e. fighting the rest of your party they take another -5 on spot checks. Small races can snipe pretty early with cover and some distance.
I really like the idea of doing catch off guard with rapid reload and TWF using 2 revolvers. Catch off guard makes them clubs basically when your enemy closes in.
two weapon fighting with pistols as clubs....are we approaching the fantasy version of the grammaton cleric?
What can I say.. I shoulda been a cowboy ;) Seriously though, you have two heavy metal bludgeoning tools in your hands and someone closes the gap on you. Catch off guard lets you dispatch of your enemy via braining and then proceed with laying down the metal storm.
And I agree, bayonettes for the win.
I would definately rule that if you had just bayonetted someone you can shoot them in melee with no miss chance adding damage for point blank shot with no AoO.. since your gun is kind of in them.
two weapon fighting with pistols as clubs....are we approaching the fantasy version of the grammaton cleric?
What can I say.. I shoulda been a cowboy ;) Seriously though, you have two heavy metal bludgeoning tools in your hands and someone closes the gap on you. Catch off guard lets you dispatch of your enemy via braining and then proceed with laying down the metal storm.
And I agree, bayonettes for the win.
I would definately rule that if you had just bayonetted someone you can shoot them in melee with no miss chance adding damage for point blank shot with no AoO.. since your gun is kind of in them.I would be warry of that. It opens the door to a lot of thrust-twists with any piercing weapon which is not covered really except with feats.
Maybe a feat to get the timing right. Stabbing Shot: if you successfully strike someone with your bayonet you may as a free action fire one shot against the target who is considered flat footed?
I don't think it would be a free action, rather your iterative attack. If you don't have any more attacks I don't think you would get to shoot. Now if you had rapid shot I would let you pull one off maybe if you beat the targets CMD since you hadn't taken the rapid shot penalty while in melee.
I do like your idea on stabbing shot though, could make for an interesting guerrila warfare type character.
two weapon fighting with pistols as clubs....are we approaching the fantasy version of the grammaton cleric?
What can I say.. I shoulda been a cowboy ;) Seriously though, you have two heavy metal bludgeoning tools in your hands and someone closes the gap on you. Catch off guard lets you dispatch of your enemy via braining and then proceed with laying down the metal storm.
And I agree, bayonettes for the win.
I would definately rule that if you had just bayonetted someone you can shoot them in melee with no miss chance adding damage for point blank shot with no AoO.. since your gun is kind of in them.I would be warry of that. It opens the door to a lot of thrust-twists with any piercing weapon which is not covered really except with feats.
Maybe a feat to get the timing right. Stabbing Shot: if you successfully strike someone with your bayonet you may as a free action fire one shot against the target who is considered flat footed?
I don't think it would be a free action, rather your iterative attack. If you don't have any more attacks I don't think you would get to shoot. Now if you had rapid shot I would let you pull one off maybe if you beat the targets CMD since you hadn't taken the rapid shot penalty while in melee.
I do like your idea on stabbing shot though, could make for an interesting guerrila warfare type character.
How about bringing it into line with Cleave and Vital Strike?
As a standard action you may make an attack with your bayonette at your highest BAB, if the attack hits you add your gun's damage to the damage done from the bayonette attack.Maybe have a BAB of 6 be a requirement.
How about bringing it into line with Cleave and Vital Strike?
As a standard action you may make an attack with your bayonette at your highest BAB, if the attack hits you add your gun's damage to the damage done from the bayonette attack.Maybe have a BAB of 6 be a requirement.
Hah.. Genious!
Feat : Gun cleave (stabbing shot)Pre-req Deadly aim, Rapid shot
Since it's going in the same hole it counts as one attack for purposes of DR. It would have to be a standard action so you don't end up with a bunch of iterative attacks or vital strike on it.
Rapid Reload is your friend in regards to that. There's absolutely no reason Rapid Reload shouldn't apply to a firearm and yet apply to a crossbow.
Additionally, if you want to use manyshot, I suggest you discuss the option of designing a double barrel gun to your GM.
The only reason is that Rapid Reload specifically states that it applies to crossbows.
Has there been an addenda so that it applies to all reloading?
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I haven't compared it, but there is a whole chapter on guns (including rules, weapons, and feats) in the Tome of Secrets.
Skortched Urf' Studios also has a couple Fantasy Firearms supplements (bundled for $2.50 on RPGNow) that I used for 3.5 (and I don't recall anything that would make them un-PFRPG)
Rapid Reload is your friend in regards to that. There's absolutely no reason Rapid Reload shouldn't apply to a firearm and yet apply to a crossbow.
Additionally, if you want to use manyshot, I suggest you discuss the option of designing a double barrel gun to your GM.
The only reason is that Rapid Reload specifically states that it applies to crossbows.
Has there been an addenda so that it applies to all reloading?
That's because crossbows are the only weapon in the core rulebook that need an action to reload. Reload crossbow..reload gun. Common sense = easy fix
That's because crossbows are the only weapon in the core rulebook that need an action to reload. Reload crossbow..reload gun. Common sense = easy fix
It's an easy house-rule fix (and there's nothing wrong with that) I'm just wondering about an official ruling on this.
Just because it makes sense, and it does, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Also, slings require a move action to load and they aren't included in Rapid Reload.
There is also the Player's Guide to Ptolus, a D20 campaign setting by Monte Cook, that has a rather large section on firearms, ammunition, and bombs. It's a bit more powerful than the stuff included in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, specifically because the Ptolus setting is overall more technologically advanced than Golarion. I really like the Hydra Rifle (3 barrels, long range, and the option to fire all three at once), and the Chimera Rifle (one rifle, one 'flamethrower', and a poisoned/drugged dart thrower, all in one handy package).
That's because crossbows are the only weapon in the core rulebook that need an action to reload. Reload crossbow..reload gun. Common sense = easy fix
It's an easy house-rule fix (and there's nothing wrong with that) I'm just wondering about an official ruling on this.
Just because it makes sense, and it does, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Also, slings require a move action to load and they aren't included in Rapid Reload.
If you're going to go purely RAW a fighter can't take guns as a weapon for weapon training. If you're using information from outside the core rulebook you HAVE to modify at least a little to fit it in.
If you're going to go purely RAW a fighter can't take guns as a weapon for weapon training. If you're using information from outside the core rulebook you HAVE to modify at least a little to fit it in.
Slings require a move action to load and they aren't included in Rapid Reload.
I understand what you're saying and pretty much agree with it, I'd just like some kind of official ruling on it.
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There is also the Player's Guide to Ptolus, a D20 campaign setting by Monte Cook, that has a rather large section on firearms, ammunition, and bombs. It's a bit more powerful than the stuff included in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, specifically because the Ptolus setting is overall more technologically advanced than Golarion. I really like the Hydra Rifle (3 barrels, long range, and the option to fire all three at once), and the Chimera Rifle (one rifle, one 'flamethrower', and a poisoned/drugged dart thrower, all in one handy package).
Ptolus is just so purdy.... sigh.
The whole question about Rapid Shot is looking like it might derail this thread so I'm going to post another thread specifically to Rapid Shot and whether it applies to all ranged weapons that take a move action to reload.
I was looking through the Pathfinder Campaign setting, and in it, they listed guns. This immediately made me really happy, as I'm a huge fan of firearms in RP settings. But as I read them more and more, it seems like they're vastly underpowered.
The reason I even check'd them out was because I saw on another thread how nice range'd attacking could be, and so I figured "I don't like how using a bow looks, but I bet it'd be really cool with a gun!" and started to work on it. But then I look at the rifle, and see that after each shot, I'd need to reload it (using a move action to do so), so that was out. And it seems to be the way with most of the guns, excluding the revolver (the gun I'm going to try using to build with now)
The weapons themselves aren't really that good, especially for exotic weapons, especially if you're using the Misfire rules. The Scatter Gun is really the only one I could see being really powerful at low levels, and it cost 2200g, so I doubt many characters who could abuse it would really be able to afford it reasonably. And the rifle is the only one I could see arguing with that it's broken (1d8 dmg, 19-20 3x crit) and even that can only be fired once a round with a 3000+g price tag.
I do like the Gunslinger feat that allows you not to provoke when using them in melee, but is there any real way to allow you to use a gun in the same capacity as a bow (modified bracers of archery, allowing Manyshot with a gun) that's actually in the rules? I can respect that the game was made with bows in mind, but can we get some gun love or at least a faster way to reload so I can get my full attack action with something besides a revolver?
You can take rapid reload as previously suggested for lots of shots per round. Given that ammo is expensive you may want to take a look at the vital strike tree and combine it up with deadly aim.
A wizard could start with a masterwork rifle as their arcane bond :)
Given their range they could be great weapons for sniping...
that did, it. my next artificer is totally using firearms.
A wizard could start with a masterwork rifle as their arcane bond :)My next wizard is totally doing this!
(I think he'll refer to the gun as a wizard's crossbow.)
...so many GM's are going to hate me..
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As an aside, I just kicked out a Gunslinger PrC for the Wayfinder #2 project. From the sounds, it will be a free PDF download available around the holidays.
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If you want the best firearm build:
high dex paladin with two-weapon fighting feat, using a Golarion 5 shooter in each hand, one of which can be enhanced via Divine Bond at 5th level; 5 shooter in each hand means no need to waste a feat on rapid reload (i.e. you get 5 rounds of fighting with one shot from main hand and one shot from offhand each round... if the combat runs longer, then you duck behind a boulder to reload while shouting "you know, McTeabag, [reload] I'm gonna give you one more chance to surrender [reload], so what's it gonna be, punk?")
:)
Would this same paladin be wearing a star that granted the same benefits as a scarab of protection? ;)If you want the best firearm build:
high dex paladin with two-weapon fighting feat, using a Golarion 5 shooter in each hand, one of which can be enhanced via Divine Bond at 5th level; 5 shooter in each hand means no need to waste a feat on rapid reload (i.e. you get 5 rounds of fighting with one shot from main hand and one shot from offhand each round... if the combat runs longer, then you duck behind a boulder to reload while shouting "you know, McTeabag, [reload] I'm gonna give you one more chance to surrender [reload], so what's it gonna be, punk?")
:)
Oh oh ... or Protection From Arrows/Bullets
Sigh...
A Human Wizard with Arcane Bond (5-shooter) EWP (5-shooter) and Arcane Strike. Using the Bonded Item to cast true strike.
Would that pistol be called a "caster" by any chance?
Edit: Much less a wizard who picks up a MW Scattergun at first level for free... thats just sick.
I was looking through the Pathfinder Campaign setting, and in it, they listed guns. This immediately made me really happy, as I'm a huge fan of firearms in RP settings. But as I read them more and more, it seems like they're vastly underpowered.
The reason I even check'd them out was because I saw on another thread how nice range'd attacking could be, and so I figured "I don't like how using a bow looks, but I bet it'd be really cool with a gun!" and started to work on it. But then I look at the rifle, and see that after each shot, I'd need to reload it (using a move action to do so), so that was out. And it seems to be the way with most of the guns, excluding the revolver (the gun I'm going to try using to build with now)
The weapons themselves aren't really that good, especially for exotic weapons, especially if you're using the Misfire rules. The Scatter Gun is really the only one I could see being really powerful at low levels, and it cost 2200g, so I doubt many characters who could abuse it would really be able to afford it reasonably. And the rifle is the only one I could see arguing with that it's broken (1d8 dmg, 19-20 3x crit) and even that can only be fired once a round with a 3000+g price tag.
I do like the Gunslinger feat that allows you not to provoke when using them in melee, but is there any real way to allow you to use a gun in the same capacity as a bow (modified bracers of archery, allowing Manyshot with a gun) that's actually in the rules? I can respect that the game was made with bows in mind, but can we get some gun love or at least a faster way to reload so I can get my full attack action with something besides a revolver?
I'd agree that the Quick Reload feat is a easy fix. I believe there is also an article on guns in Dragon Magazine. Think it was ... a Freeport article or something.
If you are not above getting your DM to house-rule open some stuff. Think about getting the "Quickloading" magic enhancement for your gun. It comes with a extradimentional space that can hold 100 bolts as well it makes reloading a free action. You can also have different ammo types and choose whichever you want to fire next. Just open that up to use with rifle shot and you are golden.
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Sweet! check this out:
"The silver bullets are surprisingly hard, and even after impacting solid surfaces, there's very little deformation. I'm glad we got these sized properly prior to shooting them, because they're harder than we'd hoped. The ideal hunting round flattens on impact, forming a mushroom shape that limits penetration depth and increases the diameter of the wound. Unless we really slow them down or find some way to address the issue, these are going to create a .44 caliber hole right through the target. It's not what we'd hoped for, but it's something that the itenerate werewolf-hunter should be aware of."
http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullet14.shtml
...and:
"I decided to drill the hole the same but use my Dremel to grind out a ring in the base and several small grooves in the hole wall. I poured five more and went back to the range again with more homemade gelatine. These did much better as far as keeping their shape for longer and averaged between 4-5 inches of penetration before separation. These cycled well and I did not have any cycle issues with any of the bullets that were filled in with silver. Unfortunately I do not have any ballistic data as I did not have access to a speed trap at the time. However my goal was to make a semi auto round that was still reliable and used silver as a component. These rounds met that goal and and if a werewolf ever comes to visit I can sleep better at night knowing I wont be left wanting."
http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/hollowpoint.shtml
Spes Magna Games has Fencing & Firearms, a PF-compatible PDF, available for download by folks who subscribe (for free) to the Quid Novi? newsletter.