That, honestly, is a big part of why I'm hesitant to do much more with real-world guns. The fans of this content are kind of their own worst enemy there, alas. We don't have the knowledge or the resources in house to make sure we do something like that right enough for the legions of fans who'll call us on it. We COULD, I suppose, but the amount of time and effort we'd have to put in would change Golarion's face and theme drastically, and that's not something anyone here at Paizo wants.
Besides, those belong in that Sci-Fi game/setting that Erik Mona keeps threatening to write. ;P
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't mind the de-emphasis. Does anyone remember when Sembia was 'never going to be developed'?
I've had some ideas for where to steal 'tech' from for Numeria Here and don't mind the primitive firearms we have, just think the costs are way off.
Firearms in D&D story:
Me: Ok, well the two red cloaked men are beginning to light the fire under the half elf.
Fighter: I charge on my mount bellowing out a challenge!
Me: They hear you and each grabs a strangely shaped staff of wood and iron, pointing it at you.
Fighter: I keep charging, they don't look like wizards.
Me: There's a clap of thunder and a gout of smoke. *rolls* you take 12 points of damage.
Fighter: Oh $#!%! They have guns.
Later in same game:
Fighter: I kick in the door and attack! *rolls* crap, only 7 points of damage
Me: He staggers back from your swing, bleeding from his wound. His eyes dart back and forth as he dives for a metal and wood wand on his desk. He levels it at you.
Fighter: A wand, we're in a silence spell!
Me: Bang *rolls* you take 8 points of damage.
Fighter: I hate you.
...
Actually, I can still see cannons developing. They are effective in siege warfare and can carry a larger punch than either a catapult or a ballista. They also make better naval weapons.
As for personal firearms, I would agree that there development is going to be slowed to some degree by magic.
It's a very tough issue, I wouldn't touch it as is. Magic might actually make things worst for firearms' evolution: Magic-Self-Loading cannons would come up much faster. Magic-Enhanced bullets or canon-balls, why not fire-work type rockets, etc. etc.
I once tried using naval canons and firearms with powder causing arcane spell failure but it becomes a main tactical issue and what do you do with divine magic?
Kind of messy I guess. But Paizo might find THE twist for Golarion but we shouldn't expect it too soon.
Something else that will play into the development/not development of cannons is that you have to drag them with you.
ballista/catapult/trebuchet/etc. all can be built at the siege site.
Add in things like "heat metal" cast on cannons by low level enemies and suddenly your "powerful" weapons are going up like bombs and taking out troops all around (those specialized and expensive troops too).
I can see cannons not developing or only in extremely limited numbers, used for surprise more than anything else and then withdraw (to keep them from being blown up/gun powder exploding).
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I don't really know if this would be possible, but one thing that might be viable Is to make each and every one of the companion articles available individually as PDF. I would think that it would cost very little to change the page numbers and package it as an individual PDF, after all, it has already been written and layed out. I can't see it reducing the sales of the AP, and it could very well increase the amount of money that comes in from each AP, as people like Disciple of Sakura buy it, when they are unlikely to buy the adventure path that contains it.
I think this is an entirely workable idea. And I know the gang is not above taking marketing advice from the forums... :)
1st off: can't wait to see the Numerian LazerBeamz&Robotz AP. Pure awesome there.
2nd: I like having guns (in general) in fantasy type settings, but hate to have mechanically different rules for ranged weapon selections. Specifically, a 19-20/x3 ranged weapon with good damage? Never again will I allow that in my games.
The solution: Guns = Crossbows. Simple, elegant, and effective. I get the flavor I want, the players get to use their pistols, rifles, shotguns, and the like, and no new rules need to come up.
I'd definitely like to include ETTPB elements into Numeria with the possible proliferation of 'lazerbeams&robotz' (to use your words). The only thing that has been bugging me is to how to determine an actual damage and crit range threshhold for them. I've been looking at d20 products like d20 Future, Star Wars d20, and Dragonstar - to name a few - and sometimes I'm worried that the damage that can be caused by these items can be a bit too overpowering if introduced too early. It's one thing when you're a high level wizard and you're dropping spells that have serious damage firepower. It's another when you have someone with a proficiency with such techonology and start blasting away. I realize that they should probably be scarce to begin with and either have a high cost to maintain or access to supplies / gear to keep them functional very limited. But I have worries that the potential of abuse can break a game quickly.
That being said, I'm all for an expansion of Alkenstar beyond what Paizo currently expresses that they will (not) commit to. I guess I need to find that acceptable medium to introduce such elements to the game if I want to explore a ETTPB style adventure.
Creative Director
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I don't really know if this would be possible, but one thing that might be viable Is to make each and every one of the companion articles available individually as PDF. I would think that it would cost very little to change the page numbers and package it as an individual PDF, after all, it has already been written and layed out. I can't see it reducing the sales of the AP, and it could very well increase the amount of money that comes in from each AP, as people like Disciple of Sakura buy it, when they are unlikely to buy the adventure path that contains it.
That's an interesting idea... but it's not something we can do right now; we're pretty much at capacity (beyond capacity, in fact) in how many PDFs and products we can produce. Putting someone on a compilation project or making individual articles of Pathfinder for sale would mean taking people off projects like, say, "make sure the actual books are made."
Furthermore, it's a shift away from our current business model. While Paizo does support PDFs and we do want to embrace the electronic age, we're very much a print company first—books aren't dead yet!
So basically, the combination of "we don't have the manpower" and "it's not the way we do things" makes this a no-go for now. But it's an interesting idea, worth considering...
Something else that will play into the development/not development of cannons is that you have to drag them with you.
ballista/catapult/trebuchet/etc. all can be built at the siege site.
Add in things like "heat metal" cast on cannons by low level enemies and suddenly your "powerful" weapons are going up like bombs and taking out troops all around (those specialized and expensive troops too).
I can see cannons not developing or only in extremely limited numbers, used for surprise more than anything else and then withdraw (to keep them from being blown up/gun powder exploding).
Dragging cannons around is a moot point. If you don't have the materials on hand to build a catapult, then you have to drag the materials around with the engineers and laborers need to build it. Even if you have the materials on hand, you typically have to build in sight of the enemy.
Honestly, cannons are better used as a stationary defense or a naval weapon in a typical fantasy setting. Of course, a lot of the basics of military tactics go outthe window in a typical fantasy setting too. Castles really should not exist, at least not as they a typically depicted. A large underground defense installation (aka a dungeon) provides better protection than a castle when you start factoring in magic and flying monsters.
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So basically, the combination of "we don't have the manpower" and "it's not the way we do things" makes this a no-go for now. But it's an interesting idea, worth considering...
"We don't have the manpower?" You can't spare an intern fifteen minutes to cut and paste some pages from Illustrator into a new Acrobat document and post it in the web store? "It's not the way we do things" sure, of course, that is a perfectly valid argument against it and I won't quibble the point any further, but the lack of manpower argument is a little... weak.
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Creative Director
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"We don't have the manpower?" You can't spare an intern fifteen minutes to cut and paste some pages from Illustrator into a new Acrobat document and post it in the web store? "It's not the way we do things" sure, of course, that is a perfectly valid argument against it and I won't quibble the point any further, but the lack of manpower argument is a little... weak.
1) We don't currently have any interns. We DID just interview two potentials, though.
2) There's a LOT more to it than "cut and paste." We'd want to do another edit pass to try to catch errors that crept into print, for one. We'd certainly want to update the rules to work with the PFRPG, and in some cases that will cause word flow to change which might need us to re-layout the entire document. We'd have to actually CREATE the PDFs and bookmark them (which isn't as easy as it sounds). We'd have to write code on our web page to handle the sale and organization of the product since it's not something we currently offer. We'd have to think about how putting up parts of Pathfinder piecemeal would impact sales of Pathfinder in print and in PDF. We'd have to figure out how these PDFs would fit into a subscription format, because I guarantee you that if they're not part of a regular subscription that folks will want a new subscription service, and THOSE aren't easy to set up. And that's just issues I came up with off the top of my head.
3) We're incredibly behind on our schedule right now, and adding fifteen minutes here and ten minutes there is the death of a thousand cuts—I'm more interested in getting the editorial department recovered from the convention season, moving the office, and producing an extra 1,000 pages of content than I am in piling on yet more responsibilities and tasks for them.
I'm not just trying to be difficult or lazy or contradictory. Generally, when I say we can't/won't do something, there's a few dozen good reasons why I said that.
Edit: James beat me to the punch. What he said.
New. In fact, so new that my instance of the website hasn't caught up to them yet.
Sweet.
I wonder what members of the Paizo faction have to do to earn prestige awards. I bet it involves writing faction missions for all the other factions.
You mean they don't start out with infinite prestige just from being Paizo faction? *faints in shock at the thought*
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In any fantasy setting that has magical proliferation (Golarion, Realms, Greyhawk and most especially Eberron), it is going to retard technological advancement without gods, kings or such having to do so. Improving technology just is not as necessary or sought after...
It is a peculiar modern trait that we so often regard technological advancement as inevitable.
I don't think it is, many cultures have existed in near stasis for lengthy periods and periods such as the Dark Ages (European, prehistoric Greek, etc.) recur throughout time.
Dragging cannons around is a moot point. If you don't have the materials on hand to build a catapult, then you have to drag the materials around with the engineers and laborers need to build it. Even if you have the materials on hand, you typically have to build in sight of the enemy.
Not exactly. Cannons are heavy, well ones to lay siege are. To build catapults you only need to drag along a very small amount of metal. Lumber can be had from trees or demolished houses/barns/estates/etc..
Part of the tactics were to build them in sight of the enemy, to allow them to stew a bit, knowing that they were going to be bombarded.
Honestly, cannons are better used as a stationary defense or a naval weapon in a typical fantasy setting. Of course, a lot of the basics of military tactics go outthe window in a typical fantasy setting too.
They would be hard to protect and the gun powder would be even harder to protect. A fire creature (elemental, mephit, etc) could cause havoc. That doesn't even take into consideration sabotage by casters or even more mundane means.
Castles really should not exist, at least not as they a typically depicted. A large underground defense installation (aka a dungeon) provides better protection than a castle when you start factoring in magic and flying monsters.
I disagree. Most threats are not airborne, but can easily sit on an entrance to a dungeon. They can pour things into the dungeon (even water can cause problems to the owners).
Castles are visible deterrents as well as providing protection from ground troops. People take more pride in a castle than a hole in the ground.
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If we were to "create our own science" then what's the point trying to make that "new science" be something familiar? And it's not just the fact that gun rule purists are hard to satisfy... it's the simple fact that guns and firearms simply don't fit the flavor of Golarion by and large as it's developed over the past 2 years.
Golarion's in a different place, evolution and creation-wise, than it was 2 years ago, when we weren't sure if introducing guns would be a good or a bad thing. Things have changed. Golarion cannot be EVERYTHING, but we can make it be MOST THINGS. Certain elements are simply too expansive and combustible to pepper into a game setting without changing the entire setting—guns are one of those things. I suspect psionics are as well.
I am of the opinion that if a group wants guns then that group should use them. All of the rules are in place for their use. There are a lot of other books that deal with firearms.
Problem solved.
:)
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Honestly, cannons are better used as a stationary defense or a naval weapon in a typical fantasy setting. Of course, a lot of the basics of military tactics go outthe window in a typical fantasy setting too.They would be hard to protect and the gun powder would be even harder to protect. A fire creature (elemental, mephit, etc) could cause havoc. That doesn't even take into consideration sabotage by casters or even more mundane means.
Never mind a druid summoning a ball of fire into the powder... how dangeroous was a hit to the powder room?
Some reasonable stuff but sad making stuff.
I hope it is an idea you can revisit at some point when you more time.
Actually... I really really REALLY want to some day set an adventure path in Numeria. So wherever you heard that we weren't ever planning on expanding things there had faulty information. "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" is one of my favorite adventures from the old days, and the concept of "Conan fighting robots" is too awesome to leave alone forever.
And in any case, there's 45 or so regions in the setting. Even if we took pains to do one adventure path per region, that'll take us over two decades to visit EVERY location. Eventually... we might just do one set in Alkenstar. It's not NEARLY as high on the list as most other locations, though. And as I said above, chances of seeing an AP set in Numeria within the next few years are actually quite high.
I'd like to see an AP set in Numeria. If nothing else, it'd be useful to have some info on how to simulate the stray supertech the Numerians have.
Uggh -- I just put it together. The decadent 'civilized' court, the name of the country, and the depicted Kellid in the Golarion campaign guide. It's a 'civilized' Cimmeria, isn't it?
Just looking through books for inspiration, I think I would be more inclined to use the stuff from Chasitech for Numerian technology than d20 Future stuff, if only because it helps simulate the "cobbled together from broken stuff to work in a wonky way" feel that I get from the entry.
I don't really know if this would be possible, but one thing that might be viable Is to make each and every one of the companion articles available individually as PDF. I would think that it would cost very little to change the page numbers and package it as an individual PDF, after all, it has already been written and layed out. I can't see it reducing the sales of the AP, and it could very well increase the amount of money that comes in from each AP, as people like Disciple of Sakura buy it, when they are unlikely to buy the adventure path that contains it.That's an interesting idea... but it's not something we can do right now; we're pretty much at capacity (beyond capacity, in fact) in how many PDFs and products we can produce. Putting someone on a compilation project or making individual articles of Pathfinder for sale would mean taking people off projects like, say, "make sure the actual books are made."
Furthermore, it's a shift away from our current business model. While Paizo does support PDFs and we do want to embrace the electronic age, we're very much a print company first—books aren't dead yet!
So basically, the combination of "we don't have the manpower" and "it's not the way we do things" makes this a no-go for now. But it's an interesting idea, worth considering...
I'd also like something like this. Even for someone who DOES own all the APs, it's getting hard to track down everything. There's random new monsters scattered around, random bits on things you want to research "Cheliax," "Sarenrae"... Some of this is work for a master index, but some is potential low incremental development products. "Monster Supplement 1 - here's all the monsters from the first 3 years of AP!" Even having all the APs, I'd be tempted.
Or "When you buy the Cheliax Companion, you also get a PDF bundle of the Cheliax articles we've written!" I was disappointed in the Cheliax Companion, for example - there was too little incremental usable info once you've read the CoT thing on Westcrown and the Gazetteer entry on Cheliax. Bundle that stuff in and buyers get the benefit and you do less rehash work.
A side note on the setting stuff not selling as well as the APs - I think some of that is unclear branding and marketing. I think from the point of view of a guy who wanders into the game store and isn't all over these boards and stuff, it's not clear that "There's a D&D campaign setting called Golarion and here's a line of setting material on it." It seems too much like "those are some kind of supplements you get only if you're using those adventure things." It would probably be worthwhile to re-release the gazetteer and companion books with a more coherent marketing campaign werapped around it, "Here's the campaign setting for the new Pathfinder RPG!"
On the firearm thing, I don't think it's all that hard to consistently incorporate late medieval gun tech into Golarion/D&D/Pathfinder. I was designing a pirate campaign set in Golarion and decided we totally needed cannon. In a couple days I put this together:
http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/firearms-for-pathfinder/
http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/cannon-for-pathfinder/
Cannon are useful for sieges and ship combat pretty much only. Firearms are not "as good as" bows from a specialist damage dealing POV but are a good specialized unit weapon and are nice for "single shot while closing to melee" or "last ditch ranged attack in a complex melee."
I think it hits the sweet spot between realism, playability,and not causing firearms to sweep the planet and be an accoutrement on every character.
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Creative Director
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Uggh -- I just put it together. The decadent 'civilized' court, the name of the country, and the depicted Kellid in the Golarion campaign guide. It's a 'civilized' Cimmeria, isn't it?
Does that really surprise you? Howard's work is probably in the top 5... maybe even the top 3 literary inspirations for Golarion, after all. For D&D, for that matter... things like frost giants and remorhazes and the barbarian class and the word "Stygia" and so on... Howard's influence is pretty strong.
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Creative Director
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I'd also like something like this. Even for someone who DOES own all the APs, it's getting hard to track down everything. There's random new monsters scattered around, random bits on things you want to research "Cheliax," "Sarenrae"... Some of this is work for a master index, but some is potential low incremental development products. "Monster Supplement 1 - here's all the monsters from the first 3 years of AP!" Even having all the APs, I'd be tempted.
I actually agree here... I like to re-use elements now and then from one volume to another, but it's tough to track. We're getting some new interns next week, though, and one of the projects I'd love to have them work on is to go through all of the books we've done and make indices of new monsters, feats, spells, magic items, prestige classes, whatever, that can be searched, and then I'd love to have those online somewhere.
Or "When you buy the Cheliax Companion, you also get a PDF bundle of the Cheliax articles we've written!" I was disappointed in the Cheliax Companion, for example - there was too little incremental usable info once you've read the CoT thing on Westcrown and the Gazetteer entry on Cheliax. Bundle that stuff in and buyers get the benefit and you do less rehash work.
That's why I prefer the companions to focus on regions we HAVEN'T done to death.
A side note on the setting stuff not selling as well as the APs - I think some of that is unclear branding and marketing. I think from the point of view of a guy who wanders into the game store and isn't all over these boards and stuff, it's not clear that "There's a D&D campaign setting called Golarion and here's a line of setting material on it." It seems too much like "those are some kind of supplements you get only if you're using those adventure things." It would probably be worthwhile to re-release the gazetteer and companion books with a more coherent marketing campaign werapped around it, "Here's the campaign setting for the new Pathfinder RPG!"
Brand confusion might certainly have something to do with it, but the concept of an Adventure Path is very strong. Back when we were doing the magazines, I'd say that the Adventure Paths were probably the most talked-about and the most beloved of anything Paizo was doing in either magazine... Dragon had a larger circulation, but looking at the traffic on our messageboards the Dungeon adventure path boards were (and are still) much more heavily trafficked. Adventure Paths are VERY VERY popular, and it's not good business sense to ignore that fact.
Uggh -- I just put it together. The decadent 'civilized' court, the name of the country, and the depicted Kellid in the Golarion campaign guide. It's a 'civilized' Cimmeria, isn't it?Does that really surprise you? Howard's work is probably in the top 5... maybe even the top 3 literary inspirations for Golarion, after all. For D&D, for that matter... things like frost giants and remorhazes and the barbarian class and the word "Stygia" and so on... Howard's influence is pretty strong.
I'm surprised it took me this long to figure it out. But myself, I always thought that the frost giants came more from Norse myth than the Conan stories.
Brand confusion might certainly have something to do with it, but the concept of an Adventure Path is very strong. Back when we were doing the magazines, I'd say that the Adventure Paths were probably the most talked-about and the most beloved of anything Paizo was doing in either magazine... Dragon had a larger circulation, but looking at the traffic on our messageboards the Dungeon adventure path boards were (and are still) much more heavily trafficked. Adventure Paths are VERY VERY popular, and it's not good business sense to ignore that fact.
Totally agreed; just saying that in addition to the APs there's no reason Golarion doesn't sell like Forgotten Realms or whatnot in its own right. No need to divert any resource from the APs, just a tip that a clearer story ("Here's a boss 3.5/PF [but low crunch] compatible campaign setting with loads of adventure support!") there might sell the setting in its own right more than it is doing right now. But yes, APs should always come first.
I actually agree here... I like to re-use elements now and then from one volume to another, but it's tough to track. We're getting some new interns next week, though, and one of the projects I'd love to have them work on is to go through all of the books we've done and make indices of new monsters, feats, spells, magic items, prestige classes, whatever, that can be searched, and then I'd love to have those online somewhere.
You know, we've done a lot of this on the wiki and I know that Paizo has a few wiki accounts floating around out there for interns to use for this purpose. Just sayin' is all.
Also, any non Paizo people who would also like these comprehensive resources/indexes should really consider contributing something to the wiki. Every little bit makes it a better resource for yourself and other users in the future.
</shameless self-promotion>
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You know, we've done a lot of this on the wiki and I know that Paizo has a few wiki accounts floating around out there for interns to use for this purpose. Just sayin' is all.
Here are the links for the lists James mentions:
Spells (sorted in various ways)
We don't have a list feats, since they are pretty crunchy and not very fluffy...
I'd also like something like this. Even for someone who DOES own all the APs, it's getting hard to track down everything. There's random new monsters scattered around, random bits on things you want to research "Cheliax," "Sarenrae"... Some of this is work for a master index, but some is potential low incremental development products. "Monster Supplement 1 - here's all the monsters from the first 3 years of AP!" Even having all the APs, I'd be tempted.
Also - if you are using adobe, you can search all PDF documents within any given folder. Edit> Search > Browse for folder
I actually agree here... I like to re-use elements now and then from one volume to another, but it's tough to track. We're getting some new interns next week, though, and one of the projects I'd love to have them work on is to go through all of the books we've done and make indices of new monsters, feats, spells, magic items, prestige classes, whatever, that can be searched, and then I'd love to have those online somewhere.You know, we've done a lot of this on the wiki and I know that Paizo has a few wiki accounts floating around out there for interns to use for this purpose. Just sayin' is all.
Also, any non Paizo people who would also like these comprehensive resources/indexes should really consider contributing something to the wiki. Every little bit makes it a better resource for yourself and other users in the future.
</shameless self-promotion>
As general wiki feedback, I really like the monster list, as it has CR and clearly linked sources, which is what you need to consume this as a DM (a short couple word description like "possessed doll" or "big spiky scorpion" would be a great addition). All the other lists and a lot of the content isn't organized in a way that is useful as a pointer into the products the way a master index is intended. The footnoting is OK for casual use but it doesn't really match the use case of "I have these 50 books and need pointers into them to go get the detailed information."
On a personal note I have been concerned with the "fluff/crunch" thing. Don't have game rules in there, sure, but if you can't even make a reference list of feats it gets confusing what you can do. Apparently you can list monster CRs though, which I wouldn't have expected. If you can't be sure that what you add isn't going to get deleted, then you don't bother to start... And I'm not sure it makes sense to have two different sources of index, one for setting bits only and one for rules bits.
For whoever wants to do it, Paizo or the PF wiki or another wiki, what I as a DM need when designing/running my campaign is source-oriented indexes of monsters, spells, magic items, feats, new rules bits (haunts, diseases, etc - "When someone says Holy Warrior cleric where is that from") as well as setting info by area and subject of interest (pirates, slavery, firearms...)
I've been designing my own campaign recently and have had a number of research tasks, some of which were well served by the wiki or by searching (I don't have everything in PDF) and some weren't.
- what's the state of piracy across Golarion
- what's on the west coast of Cheliax
- what are some low-CR monsters to use in their first adventure
- what are all the region-specific traits and feats so I can tell the players which they can use
- where are relevant wandering monster charts for the Varisian Gulf, Fever Sea, Arcadian Ocean, etc.
- where's that disease article again, I want to use that
etc.
Something else that will play into the development/not development of cannons is that you have to drag them with you.
ballista/catapult/trebuchet/etc. all can be built at the siege site.
Add in things like "heat metal" cast on cannons by low level enemies and suddenly your "powerful" weapons are going up like bombs and taking out troops all around (those specialized and expensive troops too).
I can see cannons not developing or only in extremely limited numbers, used for surprise more than anything else and then withdraw (to keep them from being blown up/gun powder exploding).
Before iron cannons... you had wooden ones. Granted, they were not as reliable. But if you have say, ironwood cast on the wooden cannon...
Magic and Materials can counter Magic.
*SNIP*
Actually... I really really REALLY want to some day set an adventure path in Numeria. So wherever you heard that we weren't ever planning on expanding things there had faulty information. "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" is one of my favorite adventures from the old days, and the concept of "Conan fighting robots" is too awesome to leave alone forever.*SNIP*
"Conan fighting robots" would be allot easier with a updated D20 Modern rule-set. *hint hint... nudge nudge*
Never mind a druid summoning a ball of fire into the powder... how dangeroous was a hit to the powder room?Honestly, cannons are better used as a stationary defense or a naval weapon in a typical fantasy setting. Of course, a lot of the basics of military tactics go outthe window in a typical fantasy setting too.They would be hard to protect and the gun powder would be even harder to protect. A fire creature (elemental, mephit, etc) could cause havoc. That doesn't even take into consideration sabotage by casters or even more mundane means.
Targeting the powder, requires you to see it or have a creature that can reach it. Out in the open, cannons would be vulnerable. Place a cannon in a reinforced gun implacement (akin to some of the shore forts along the US coast or the one used in WWII) and you would have a hard time targeting the powder without sending in a strike team.
Now if you have a spellcaster with stone shape, the threat is neutralized. You can shape the stone across the firing port. In fact, with a couple of stone shape scrolls, you could make swiss cheese out of a castle wall.
Dragging cannons around is a moot point. If you don't have the materials on hand to build a catapult, then you have to drag the materials around with the engineers and laborers need to build it. Even if you have the materials on hand, you typically have to build in sight of the enemy.Not exactly. Cannons are heavy, well ones to lay siege are. To build catapults you only need to drag along a very small amount of metal. Lumber can be had from trees or demolished houses/barns/estates/etc..
Part of the tactics were to build them in sight of the enemy, to allow them to stew a bit, knowing that they were going to be bombarded.
Honestly, cannons are better used as a stationary defense or a naval weapon in a typical fantasy setting. Of course, a lot of the basics of military tactics go outthe window in a typical fantasy setting too.They would be hard to protect and the gun powder would be even harder to protect. A fire creature (elemental, mephit, etc) could cause havoc. That doesn't even take into consideration sabotage by casters or even more mundane means.
Castles really should not exist, at least not as they a typically depicted. A large underground defense installation (aka a dungeon) provides better protection than a castle when you start factoring in magic and flying monsters.I disagree. Most threats are not airborne, but can easily sit on an entrance to a dungeon. They can pour things into the dungeon (even water can cause problems to the owners).
Castles are visible deterrents as well as providing protection from ground troops. People take more pride in a castle than a hole in the ground.
See here is where I see a different matter entirely. In a fantasy setting of Golarion's vein you have powerful spellcasters. What makes them important is the fact that they can altar your reality as they see fit. What I mean is, dragging a cannon or the materials around much? Why not use Magic to fabricate them or their approximation? The enemies canon hard to hit because of an enclosure? Meteor swarm, fireball, chain lightning can take care of that, maybe even melf's acid arrow. Summon fiends or angels to fly in and smash catapults, rain fire on your enemy, send in invisible assassins to kill their commanders. I mean magic makes the scenerios possible endless, and changes the assumptions. More importantly it has to be considered with firearms in a fantasy game. Firearms replaced bows in the real world because of 2 reasons, they were harder to defend against, and in the end easier to use and be accurate. To be deadly with a bow you need precision and strength, while a gun does the work for you and can be decently accurate with a little bit of work. Watch most renessaince era movies and take those scenes where a young girl gets the flintlock pistol in her hands and the villian looks worried.... give her a bow and not so much barring her being heavily practiced and have decent range. thats what changes in a fantasy setting except now you have to take into consideration guns + magic enhancements. I guess the point of my sad rambling is you cannot make the assumption that cannons aren't as good as catapults because of construction. In the end though cannons are good for some but in my opinion fantasy wars should be all about the wizards and clerics who do massively bad things. An invisible bomber flying around dropping delayed blasts on your men is much scarier than a cannon on wheels. The cleric who mass heals the same burnt platoon and undoes all the damage the wizard inflicted quickly changes the momentum, not to mention having sorcerers and wizards and the like scrying on your battle plans and into the future via divination and using that information against you. The threat of powerful enough spellcasters should be enough to deter some. A 10th level or higher wizard could quickly be considered a veritable WMD, albeit with a mind and possible a price to get his loyalty. On the local level so to speak it is the same thing. Sure your 8th level fighter fears that rogue/assassin who might come calling, but how about the wizard who scryed you teleported in your room and cast power word kill? Thats pretty scary, especially if hes improved invisibled and has the spell prepared silently or somesuch. Thats game over you have no idea what hit you, what then does d10 or d12 from a gun compare to that?
I don't need an AP set in Alkenstar and Numeria.
Make 1 or 2 adventures set there. An entire AP set in Alkenstar probably would not be very popular since lots of people would suspend their subscription.
A New Expedition to the Barrier Peaks set in Golarion would be AWESOME!!!
As would a Temple of the Frog and Silver Palace adventures!
Alkenstar is Steampunk...that is a fantasy setting, not modern. A Steam Cannon is not realistic. Unfortunately you make Alkenstar a magic dead region instead of making it a different magic region...
a lot in a big paragraph
Might I suggest that you break up your points into paragraphs rather than one big one? It makes it a wee bit easier to read and quote.
I lot of what I was getting at was directed at siege and warfare without a lot of magic. It was not directed at high magic level fantasy worlds with a lot of high powered casters zipping around.
I seem to recall the developers stating that Golarion did not have an abundance of high level NPCs, let alone high level casters.
Please note that scry and teleport tactics are less safe under Pathfinder rules.
As well, while fabricate works well, the caster still needs to have the skill to make the item, which can put a crimp in anyone's plan to have a high level caster fabricate canons on site.
Something else that will play into the development/not development of cannons is that you have to drag them with you.
ballista/catapult/trebuchet/etc. all can be built at the siege site.
Add in things like "heat metal" cast on cannons by low level enemies and suddenly your "powerful" weapons are going up like bombs and taking out troops all around (those specialized and expensive troops too).
I can see cannons not developing or only in extremely limited numbers, used for surprise more than anything else and then withdraw (to keep them from being blown up/gun powder exploding).
Before iron cannons... you had wooden ones. Granted, they were not as reliable. But if you have say, ironwood cast on the wooden cannon...
Magic and Materials can counter Magic.
Wooden cannons? I seem to recall reading something about metal reinforced wooden cannons, but they tended to blow up quite frequently. If I am recalling correctly, they were also quite large and most likely too heavy to be subjected to ironwood cast on them. We are not talking about the small mobile cannons used on the battlefield, but fixed pieces. Even those on old sail warships took a large crew to move back and forth on wheeled carriages.
Even if they were not, you still have the limitation that ironwood has a duration and is not permanent. As well, you also have the same problem with lower level casters casting warp wood on the cannons, which would again make them go up like bombs...
Targeting the powder, requires you to see it or have a creature that can reach it. Out in the open, cannons would be vulnerable. Place a cannon in a reinforced gun implacement (akin to some of the shore forts along the US coast or the one used in WWII) and you would have a hard time targeting the powder without sending in a strike team.
I don't think that a strike team would be needed to get at the powder in a reinforced gun emplacement. A summoned creature with a bead from a necklace of fireballs; a summoned fire creature; fireball cast into the firing port; etc.
Now if you have a spellcaster with stone shape, the threat is neutralized. You can shape the stone across the firing port. In fact, with a couple of stone shape scrolls, you could make swiss cheese out of a castle wall.
You would need a strike team for that, as stone shape is a touch spell. I think that the current owners of the fort would be doing their best to object to your cheese making operation. :)
Targeting the powder, requires you to see it or have a creature that can reach it. Out in the open, cannons would be vulnerable. Place a cannon in a reinforced gun implacement (akin to some of the shore forts along the US coast or the one used in WWII) and you would have a hard time targeting the powder without sending in a strike team.I don't think that a strike team would be needed to get at the powder in a reinforced gun emplacement. A summoned creature with a bead from a necklace of fireballs; a summoned fire creature; fireball cast into the firing port; etc.
Now if you have a spellcaster with stone shape, the threat is neutralized. You can shape the stone across the firing port. In fact, with a couple of stone shape scrolls, you could make swiss cheese out of a castle wall.You would need a strike team for that, as stone shape is a touch spell. I think that the current owners of the fort would be doing their best to object to your cheese making operation. :)
Of course... wall of stone spells are able to made into a variety of shapes. They enemy could easily close in the cannon except for a small firing port to protect it... or use their own shape stones spells to open and close a wall between shots.
Something else that will play into the development/not development of cannons is that you have to drag them with you.
ballista/catapult/trebuchet/etc. all can be built at the siege site.
Add in things like "heat metal" cast on cannons by low level enemies and suddenly your "powerful" weapons are going up like bombs and taking out troops all around (those specialized and expensive troops too).
I can see cannons not developing or only in extremely limited numbers, used for surprise more than anything else and then withdraw (to keep them from being blown up/gun powder exploding).
Dragging cannons around is a moot point. If you don't have the materials on hand to build a catapult, then you have to drag the materials around with the engineers and laborers need to build it. Even if you have the materials on hand, you typically have to build in sight of the enemy.
Honestly, cannons are better used as a stationary defense or a naval weapon in a typical fantasy setting. Of course, a lot of the basics of military tactics go outthe window in a typical fantasy setting too. Castles really should not exist, at least not as they a typically depicted. A large underground defense installation (aka a dungeon) provides better protection than a castle when you start factoring in magic and flying monsters.
5 words:
Mortar in a portable hole.