He could get 2 for Cleric -2 for Int +1 for human = 1 per level
Or he could get 2 for Cleric -2 for Int = 1 (the minimum number of skill points per level) +1 =2
He would get 2
(2-2(minimum 1))+1= 2
Or 3 if it's his favored class (and really, it should be).
Intelligence (Int)Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.
You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
* The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
* The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
* Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.
Human Racial Traits+2 to One Ability Score: Human characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
Medium: Humans are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
If you have two fighters, one Half-Orc and one Human, and both have an Intelligence of 7, then the Half-Orc would, without question, get 1 Skill point per level.
So...
The Human would get 2 (The same skill point the Half-orc gets plus the one he gets for being human). Any other way negates his racial ability for a class component, which doesn't make sense, because he'd get his extra skill point if he were say, a Barbarian, but not a Fighter. So that makes no sense.
Both could get an extra skill point per level by making fighter their favored class, if they chose to. Then the Half-Orc would get 2, and the Human 3.
Or 3 if it's his favored class (and really, it should be).
If he doesn't choose the +1 Hit Point.
He could get 2 for Cleric -2 for Int +1 for human = 1 per level
Incorrect
Or he could get 2 for Cleric -2 for Int = 1 (the minimum number of skill points per level) +1 =2
Correct
mechanically speaking he would get two per lvl. as far as charecters go with a 7 int he needs a new charecter. That low of a stat is almost unplayable.
mechanically speaking he would get two per lvl. as far as charecters go with a 7 int he needs a new charecter. That low of a stat is almost unplayable.
Why unplayable? Playing the dummy can be fun, and he's a cleric for heaven's sake. As long as he's tight with his deity no one is going to be giving him an IQ test.
mechanically speaking he would get two per lvl. as far as charecters go with a 7 int he needs a new charecter. That low of a stat is almost unplayable.
Phooey!
If he were a wizard with that INT he would be unplayable. Or a fighter with a STR of 7, etc.
But a cleric with an INT of 7 - it hardly costs him anything at all.
He loses one skill point. Big deal, he gets that back for being human. If a dwarf cleric can get anough skill points at 2/level (assuming an INT of 10, which should be fully playable), then a human cleric getting 2 skill points per level should be equally playable - at least in terms of how many skills he can learn and how well he can learn them.
And for a cleric, he doesn't need INT for anything else. He can still bash the infedels, heal the wounded, wield the full might of his deity's spell power, blast (or rebuke) undead, etc.
The only minor inconveniences might be making spellcraft checks, say, for counterspelling or identifying magic items/spells, or for crafting magic items if he goes that route. And he'll be the most clueless cleric in the seminary, always forgetting his sermons and his scripture with that -2 to his Knowledge(Religion) checks.
Other than that, he's fine.
Besides, INT 7 characters are easy to roleplay. Heck, you can just sit there and play with a Game Boy, ignoring the game around you (adds to the plausible deniability if you have to make a decision - it's easy to make bad intellectual decisions if you don't know what's going on). Just occasionally grunt or drool and you're golden...
mechanically speaking he would get two per lvl. as far as charecters go with a 7 int he needs a new charecter. That low of a stat is almost unplayable.
That would eliminate over ½ of the people who post on the internet!
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mechanically speaking he would get two per lvl. as far as charecters go with a 7 int he needs a new charecter. That low of a stat is almost unplayable.That would eliminate over ½ of the people who post on the internet!
Isnt it "internets?" I dont think the former leader of the free world Dubya would mispronounce it.
mechanically speaking he would get two per lvl. as far as charecters go with a 7 int he needs a new charecter. That low of a stat is almost unplayable.Phooey!
If he were a wizard with that INT he would be unplayable. Or a fighter with a STR of 7, etc.
But a cleric with an INT of 7 - it hardly costs him anything at all.
He loses one skill point. Big deal, he gets that back for being human.
See I have an issue, yes the rules say he losses only one point, but it seems to me the players is playing the system in this situation. I wouldn't allow him to drop his int below 8, simply because otherwise he is getting skill points he shouldn't, or I would be willing to actually allow him to gain 0 per level + 1 for being human.
If it's an RP choice fine he can do it but RP without consequences of his choices seems like pretty weak RP and if it's a power gamer move then I'd call a halt to it because it's twisting a rule.
Now if it's a roll and keep it were it lies game, well he didn't chose the low score, I wont do anything about it. I'd play it by rule and give him the 1 + 1 skill point per level. But if it was a points buy system, nope he gets what he pays for. The minimum of 1 skill point rule for me doesn't apply to points buy systems or it opens the door to abuse. That's me, the rules say 1 + 1.
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I have always played under the assumption that the minimum 1 skill point was applied at the end. Which for a human cleric, would receive:
(Favored Class)2-2+1+1=2
(Non-Favored) 2-2+1=1
In this case the human still has the benefit of the non-human in that he has the choice of using favored class for skill points. I haven't read the 3.5 FAQ for this issue, so I'm not sure what it specifically says about it, but to me it seems that if you want a 7 int you will be "wasting" a racial. To be honest, other race's bonuses can get wasted too, weapon proficiencies for non-martial classes, dwarf poison resistance when playing druid/monk, dwarf speed on monk/sorc/wiz etc. I see no problem with a human who chooses 7 int to have less skill points.
Back in first edition they stated that for Int it is the equivaltne of multiplying by 10 to fidn your IQ.
At a 70 IQ you are two full standard deviations below norm (standard deviation for IQ is 15).
This means that 50% +34.1% + 13.6% = (97.7%) of the populaiton is smarter then you.
In other words you are SEVERELY handicapped.
By curiosity, would you enforce a PC with INT 22 (IQ 220) to a certain roleplay?
Back in first edition they stated that for Int it is the equivaltne of multiplying by 10 to fidn your IQ.At a 70 IQ you are two full standard deviations below norm (standard deviation for IQ is 15).
This means that 50% +34.1% + 13.6% = (97.7%) of the populaiton is smarter then you.
In other words you are SEVERELY handicapped.
I really don't think this applies anymore. This wording has been long since dropped from the rules. I would suggest that it's a much flatter scale now with 7 INT still being close to retarded but 24 INT being something well shy of a 240 IQ. Regardless...
By curiosity, would you enforce a PC with INT 22 (IQ 220) to a certain roleplay?
The stupid bit is the character's obligation but I've never seen anyone effectively enforce roleplaying. It can be interesting to see someone RP dumb characters though.
I have always played under the assumption that the minimum 1 skill point was applied at the end. Which for a human cleric, would receive:
(Favored Class)2-2+1+1=2
(Non-Favored) 2-2+1=1In this case the human still has the benefit of the non-human in that he has the choice of using favored class for skill points. I haven't read the 3.5 FAQ for this issue, so I'm not sure what it specifically says about it, but to me it seems that if you want a 7 int you will be "wasting" a racial. To be honest, other race's bonuses can get wasted too, weapon proficiencies for non-martial classes, dwarf poison resistance when playing druid/monk, dwarf speed on monk/sorc/wiz etc. I see no problem with a human who chooses 7 int to have less skill points.
This is how I see it also. You add/ subtract all the modifiers including INT penalty. If the result is less then 1 then the score is bumped up to 1. I also agree with your comments on racial bonuses. There are other racial bonuses that you lose if you have low stats as well (gnomes SLAs are the obvious example).
Poor cleric - I remember a time when someone played a fighter that had the intelligence of 3. It was a blast especially when he could not figure out why the trolls were not dying ...
LOL
By curiosity, would you enforce a PC with INT 22 (IQ 220) to a certain roleplay?Back in first edition they stated that for Int it is the equivaltne of multiplying by 10 to fidn your IQ.
At a 70 IQ you are two full standard deviations below norm (standard deviation for IQ is 15).
This means that 50% +34.1% + 13.6% = (97.7%) of the populaiton is smarter then you.
In other words you are SEVERELY handicapped.
This brings up some interesting questions. A quick search shows that the highest IQ out there is around 228-230. A high-level character could be smarter than anyone who's ever lived in the real world. Not a problem, really. Just a curious thought. How would you play someone who's smarter than freakin' Einstein?
By the same token, a low-int character could be problematic for the bright kind of folks who gravitate around this sort of game. You could just day "duh" a lot, I guess. Maybe act like Homer Simpson?
Threadjack ended.
By curiosity, would you enforce a PC with INT 22 (IQ 220) to a certain roleplay?Back in first edition they stated that for Int it is the equivaltne of multiplying by 10 to fidn your IQ.
At a 70 IQ you are two full standard deviations below norm (standard deviation for IQ is 15).
This means that 50% +34.1% + 13.6% = (97.7%) of the populaiton is smarter then you.
In other words you are SEVERELY handicapped.
This brings up some interesting questions. A quick search shows that the highest IQ out there is around 228-230. A high-level character could be smarter than anyone who's ever lived in the real world. Not a problem, really. Just a curious thought. How would you play someone who's smarter than freakin' Einstein?
By the same token, a low-int character could be problematic for the bright kind of folks who gravitate around this sort of game. You could just day "duh" a lot, I guess. Maybe act like Homer Simpson?
Threadjack ended.
Int can mean IQ or it can just mean book smarts. A cleric with 30 wisdom and 4 Int isn't a moron, he just isn't studious. He still knows about his specific field just like a fighter knows how to cut someone up or whatever he does.
I see what you mean. I can't recall from memory every detail of every spell a wizard would know about, but a wizard in-game would. That's his job. Being of less-than-godlike intelligence, I have to look it up! :-}
I think it's easier for a smart person to play a dumb character than a not so bright person to play a genius character.
That said, for people playing genius characters, I usually give them more slack than someone playing an average int person (for example, in a champions game, a gadgeteer batman or iron man like character is played by a player with a 100 to 120 IQ. They come up with 'I want a lazer that I can switch from cutting to stunning people'. Now, I don't make them justify the power or how they do it, they just make their rolls and see if the character figures it out. I also put some people I've GM'd to a higher standard, because I know they have IQ's in the 130's to 160's, and I make them give some psuedo scientific jargon to justify it. Not to be mean, but because it gives the character extra depth to have him describe how his weapons work.).
The most fun I ever had with a character was a AD&D Half-Orc Barbarian called Chak. Chak had a 5 Intelligence. He carried a great club that was bound up with iron and had swords driven into it with hammers until the blade stuck through both sides (snapped off the pommels afterwards). His usually gammut of conversation went along the lines of 'Chak No No what mean' or 'CHAK ANGRY!' or 'CHAK SMASH!'. That last was often said to the halfling rogue who used to make fun of Chak. Took a few minutes for Chak to figure out he was being made fun of. It was a great character and I had a lot of fun with it.
Int can mean IQ or it can just mean book smarts. A cleric with 30 wisdom and 4 Int isn't a moron, he just isn't studious. He still knows about his specific field just like a fighter knows how to cut someone up or whatever he does.
Erm... well he pretty much IS a moron. He just has an amazing intuition and the ability to communicate with his god.
"Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons"
So a 4 INT character may very well never learn how to tie his shoes.
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Int can mean IQ or it can just mean book smarts. A cleric with 30 wisdom and 4 Int isn't a moron, he just isn't studious. He still knows about his specific field just like a fighter knows how to cut someone up or whatever he does.Erm... well he pretty much IS a moron. He just has an amazing intuition and the ability to communicate with his god.
"Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons"
So a 4 INT character may very well never learn how to tie his shoes.
But he'd know when someone was dying on the inside from pain (physical or emotional), which I find as perfectly fine... Maybe even autistic?
But he'd know when someone was dying on the inside from pain (physical or emotional), which I find as perfectly fine... Maybe even autistic?
I'm not saying it's an impossible concept. I look at it like the guy from "The Green Mile". He has a gift, he can tell right from wrong and he knows how to use it but he is easy to fool and generally clueless.
Back in first edition they stated that for Int it is the equivaltne of multiplying by 10 to fidn your IQ.
Back in 1st edition it took magic for a human to exceed 18.
Hap's idea of just comparing a 3d6 roll to the corresponding frequency on the IQ bell curve would put an 18 Intelligence at approximately 140 IQ. If one in six humans take +2 to Intelligence, that corresponds almost perfectly to the frequency 150 IQ.
Considering that I don't trust the test(s) to measure anything meaningful above that point, that seems like a pretty solid model to me. :)
Back in first edition they stated that for Int it is the equivaltne of multiplying by 10 to fidn your IQ.Back in 1st edition it took magic for a human to exceed 18.
Techinically not true. You could gain int (and wis) from aging that could exceed 18, no magic required, just getting older.
To those saying you apply the -2 skill points at the end (2 class +1 human -2 INT = 1 skill point per level):
That's unfair, and here's why.
If this same player chose to be a dwarf, or elf, or whatever, he would get all of his racial abilities. He would also get 1 skill point per level.
But, as a human, following the formula you folks are endorsing, he loses a human racial ability. Humans are entitled to get +1 skill point above the other races. That's a racial feature. Without it, the human is being robbed - not because of his low INT (because other races are not similarly robbed for a low INT), but just because of a willful desire to punish this character.
Since we know humans get +1 skill point every level, it stands to reason that this human character, with this INT score, should get 1 more skill point at every level than some other non-human character with exactly the same INT would get.
If not, then would you espouse letting him play an elf but take away his low-light vision because of his low INT? Or play a dwarf but take away his Hardiness because of his low INT?
No, you wouldn't do that. Would you?
So why take away his human racial skill bonus because of his low INT?
If this same player chose to be a dwarf, or elf, or whatever, he would get all of his racial abilities. He would also get 1 skill point per level.
Not a gnome with 9 Charisma.
Not a gnome with 9 Charisma.
If this same player chose to be a dwarf, or elf, or whatever, he would get all of his racial abilities. He would also get 1 skill point per level.
Good point, but there is a difference. The gnomes' spell-like abilities are specifically, right there in the ability, linked to an ability score. Speficically, it says "This is your ability, but only if your CHA is 11 or higher".
There is no such limitation on the human ability. Nowhere in the human racial description does it say "Humans only get +1 skill point if their INT is 8 or higher".
That's the difference.
Using an interpretation of game mechanics to take away a racial ability that is not conditional upon an ability score (human skills) is still unfair, while using a game mechanic to take away a racial ability that is explicitly contingent upon an ability score (gnomish spells) is not unfair because of the very explicitness of the contingency of the racial ability itself.
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Not a gnome with 9 Charisma.
If this same player chose to be a dwarf, or elf, or whatever, he would get all of his racial abilities. He would also get 1 skill point per level.
Good point, but there is a difference. The gnomes' spell-like abilities are specifically, right there in the ability, linked to an ability score. Speficically, it says "This is your ability, but only if your CHA is 11 or higher".
There is no such limitation on the human ability. Nowhere in the human racial description does it say "Humans only get +1 skill point if their INT is 8 or higher".
That's the difference.
Using an interpretation of game mechanics to take away a racial ability that is not conditional upon an ability score (human skills) is still unfair, while using a game mechanic to take away a racial ability that is explicitly contingent upon an ability score (gnomish spells) is not unfair because of the very explicitness of the contingency of the racial ability itself.
What about weapon familiarities with Elves, dwarves, half-orcs, halflings, etc.? What about a dwarvish druid (useful for a few levels, but useless later)? Elven magic with any non-spellcasting class?
Even then the human is still better off in the case you described. The dwarf could never get 2 skill points in a level. The human can get two in a level with favored class.
What about weapon familiarities with Elves, dwarves, half-orcs, halflings, etc.? What about a dwarvish druid (useful for a few levels, but useless later)? Elven magic with any non-spellcasting class?Even then the human is still better off in the case you described. The dwarf could never get 2 skill points in a level. The human can get two in a level with favored class.
A) Druidic restrictions are on armor, not weapons. They can use metal weapons. But, even if they couldn't, being a Druid doesn't take away those proficiencies, worst you would have is requiring them to get a sword or axe or whatever made of darkwood or ironwood instead.
B) Not sure what you are talking about with the Elven Magic?
C) The Dwarf could get 2 taking a favored class. I think that's the idea here. To me at least. The Class should be taken as granting one skill per level minimum. The bonus from Preferred Class should be added to the amount the class grants. Same with the human ability. So, a human, regardless of INT should always get a minimum of 3 skill points if he chooses a preferred class and takes the skill point. A dwarf in the same situation should always get 2.
The reason I agree with DM Blake is that gives the player the most options. If someone does the dwarf as you suggest, then, if they know they will never get their preferred class skill point, they will always pick the HP at each preferred level, because they can't get less than one skillpoint. If you add the bonus skill points on to the minimum for the class, the person still has an option when they take a preferred class level.
Good point, but there is a difference. The gnomes' spell-like abilities are specifically, right there in the ability, linked to an ability score. Speficically, it says "This is your ability, but only if your CHA is 11 or higher".
It says right there when you are assigning stats that "This is your ability score, you lose 2 skill points per level for a 7" it's just as explicit as the bit about losing racial abilities. It doesn't suggest what order to apply things so you apply them all, then once your applied them give the minimum 1 skill point/ level if applicable.
You want to talk about fair, but what you are suggesting is allowing characters to buy down abilities with no negative repercussions. IMO the player made that decision when she dumped INT turning her character into a functional retard. As far as I'm concerned what you suggest is akin to letting people dump DEX without it affecting their AC.
The character is mentally handicapped and should have some problems learning.
My halfling is in his racial preferred class and he can't use the 1 halfling racial weapon. How fair is that?
Ogre shakes his fist *Grrrr*
Racial abilities are nice little bonuses enjoyed by SOME characters of a given race, some don't qualify.
My halfling is in his racial preferred class and he can't use the 1 halfling racial weapon. How fair is that?
Ogre shakes his fist *Grrrr*
Racial abilities are nice little bonuses enjoyed by SOME characters of a given race, some don't qualify.
First off, no such thing as a racial preferred class anymore. Second, it's just like any other exotic-to-martial weapon. You still need martial training. The benefit is that if you really want to use that weapon, you can take the feat at first level (as opposed to Exotic Weapon Proficiency, which requires BAB +1). So you still gain a benefit from the racial ability, you just have to choose to take advantage of it.
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Back in first edition they stated that for Int it is the equivaltne of multiplying by 10 to fidn your IQ.
At a 70 IQ you are two full standard deviations below norm (standard deviation for IQ is 15).
This means that 50% +34.1% + 13.6% = (97.7%) of the populaiton is smarter then you.
In other words you are SEVERELY handicapped.
Back in first edition you could hardly go over 18.
Now it's quite common ... Who talked about stats inflation ?I remember my friend playin a barbarian with 7 INT in 3.5. It was fun as he RPed it very well. Allthough at some point he found it quite frustrating to RP because he sometimes had to pretend he did not understand riddles or complicated situation.
So OK you want to have 7 in INT. But YOU HAVE to RP it !
So OK you want to have 7 in INT. But YOU HAVE to RP it !
Ah, but that's the crux of the arguement against allowing the +1 skill point for those with negative INT. You SHOULD roleplay your character, but there are no rules to enforce roleplay.
Having said that, put me in the camp that says a Human with an INT of 7 still gets a minimum of 2 skill points (+1 for favored class if desired) per level. They still take the -2 to all of their INT skills, I think that's penalizing them enough. Otherwise, who would EVER play a low-INT human? Without that racial ability, all that's left is a bonus feat. Nice, but certainly not on par with everything the other races get.
BTW, that is SO not the avatar pic I would expect for someone with the handle Chewbacca. :)
Regarding weapon proficiencies that aren't exotic (such as longsword/rapier for Elves, if they still have that).
They don't lose the benefit, it just doesn't stack.
The Human point is actually being lost. There's a difference there.
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What about weapon familiarities with Elves, dwarves, half-orcs, halflings, etc.? What about a dwarvish druid (useful for a few levels, but useless later)? Elven magic with any non-spellcasting class?Even then the human is still better off in the case you described. The dwarf could never get 2 skill points in a level. The human can get two in a level with favored class.
A) Druidic restrictions are on armor, not weapons. They can use metal weapons. But, even if they couldn't, being a Druid doesn't take away those proficiencies, worst you would have is requiring them to get a sword or axe or whatever made of darkwood or ironwood instead.
B) Not sure what you are talking about with the Elven Magic?
C) The Dwarf could get 2 taking a favored class. I think that's the idea here. To me at least. The Class should be taken as granting one skill per level minimum. The bonus from Preferred Class should be added to the amount the class grants. Same with the human ability. So, a human, regardless of INT should always get a minimum of 3 skill points if he chooses a preferred class and takes the skill point. A dwarf in the same situation should always get 2.
The reason I agree with DM Blake is that gives the player the most options. If someone does the dwarf as you suggest, then, if they know they will never get their preferred class skill point, they will always pick the HP at each preferred level, because they can't get less than one skillpoint. If you add the bonus skill points on to the minimum for the class, the person still has an option when they take a preferred class level.
A) I wasn't referring to weapons. I was referring to poison immunity.
B) Martial classes receive zero benefit from the Elven Magic racial trait.
Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
C) That's the point of what we're discussing. In the method we say the Dwarf would only get 1 Skill Point per level. As for options... it was his choice to take a 7 int in the first place, so he always has the option of just increasing his Int to 8 either at character creation or level 4, 8, 12, 16, or 20.
At this point all I can say is that it's DM interpretation as the rules don't specify one way or the other in my opinion. Although for PFS it would be nice to know what the "official" stance on it is, despite the fact in my home game I'd have it as I was describing it anyways.
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A couple of things:
1) I disagree with those saying that selling down the Int stat carries "no (other) penalties" besides less skill points for a Cleric. Knowledge and Spellcraft skills are penalized (as well as Appraise, Craft, and Linguistics) and I've always found Kn(Religion) and Spellcraft to be important for the Cleric's basic functionality.
2) Page 86 has a section on Aquiring Skills, and the second paragraph states:
The number of skill ranks you gain when taking a level
in one of the base classes is shown on Table 4–1. Humans
gain 1 additional skill rank per class level. Characters who
take a level in a favored class have the option of gaining 1
additional skill rank or an additional hit point (see page
31). If you select a level in a new class, all of its class skills
are automatically added to your list of class skills, and you
gain a +3 bonus on these skills if you have ranks in them.
Table 4–1: Skill Ranks
Class Skill Ranks per Level
Barbarian 4 + Int modifier
Bard 6 + Int modifier
Cleric 2 + Int modifier
Druid 4 + Int modifier
Fighter 2 + Int modifier
Monk 4 + Int modifier
Paladin 2 + Int modifier
Ranger 6 + Int modifier
Rogue 8 + Int modifier
Sorcerer 2 + Int modifier
Wizard 2 + Int modifier
My reading of this is that the order is apply the chart, minimum one per Intelligence entry, then apply the human and then the favored class choice. I agree, however, that the order is not explicitly listed.
The most fun I ever had with a character was a AD&D Half-Orc Barbarian called Chak. Chak had a 5 Intelligence. He carried a great club that was bound up with iron and had swords driven into it with hammers until the blade stuck through both sides (snapped off the pommels afterwards). His usually gammut of conversation went along the lines of 'Chak No No what mean' or 'CHAK ANGRY!' or 'CHAK SMASH!'. That last was often said to the halfling rogue who used to make fun of Chak. Took a few minutes for Chak to figure out he was being made fun of. It was a great character and I had a lot of fun with it.
It is really amusing how much fun these kinds of characters can be. I played a Half Orc Barb with an 7 int once, it was a ball. And recently a member of my group started up a Half-Orc Barb named Thok, who is now in my top 5 favorite characters ever created by my gaming group. I found it almost impossible to RP my character correctly, because he was a high charisma diplomatic type, but I just enjoyed Thok so much i could not bring myself to interfere with his means of negotiation. When a player has the whole group nearly crying from laughter, its not easy to remember what your character would do in response. So in short order, the Half Orc Barb was the defacto leader of our party... it made things interesting for the GM thats for sure.
To those saying you apply the -2 skill points at the end (2 class +1 human -2 INT = 1 skill point per level):
That's unfair, and here's why.
If this same player chose to be a dwarf, or elf, or whatever, he would get all of his racial abilities. He would also get 1 skill point per level.
But, as a human, following the formula you folks are endorsing, he loses a human racial ability. Humans are entitled to get +1 skill point above the other races. That's a racial feature. Without it, the human is being robbed - not because of his low INT (because other races are not similarly robbed for a low INT), but just because of a willful desire to punish this character.
Since we know humans get +1 skill point every level, it stands to reason that this human character, with this INT score, should get 1 more skill point at every level than some other non-human character with exactly the same INT would get.
If not, then would you espouse letting him play an elf but take away his low-light vision because of his low INT? Or play a dwarf but take away his Hardiness because of his low INT?
No, you wouldn't do that. Would you?
So why take away his human racial skill bonus because of his low INT?
Well for one thing most point buys don't allow you to buy a stat below 7, so an elf wouldn't ever have this issue as his lowest possible int is 9 in those systems thanks to his +2 to int. The benifit of being a human is you place your bonus stat.
But the character chose to give up the stat in a point buy system and by doing so he chose to negate his racial bonus. It was his/her choice and if he did it for RP purposes he wont mind the loss he will be looking to play a guy with limited skills and mental ability, that's the RP he is going for. If he's doing it to play with the system, well too bad, so sad, I can't be worried about a power gaming choices that doesn't go as he hoped. If it happened in a die rolling situation I would grant him the bonus human skill point.
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It is really amusing how much fun these kinds of characters can be. I played a Half Orc Barb with an 7 int once, it was a ball. And recently a member of my group started up a Half-Orc Barb named Thok, who is now in my top 5 favorite characters ever created by my gaming group. I found it almost impossible to RP my character correctly, because he was a high charisma diplomatic type, but I just enjoyed Thok so much i could not bring myself to interfere with his means of negotiation. When a player has the whole group nearly crying from laughter, its not easy to remember what your character would do in response. So in short order, the Half Orc Barb was the defacto leader of our party... it made things interesting for the GM thats for sure.
The most fun I ever had with a character was a AD&D Half-Orc Barbarian called Chak. Chak had a 5 Intelligence. He carried a great club that was bound up with iron and had swords driven into it with hammers until the blade stuck through both sides (snapped off the pommels afterwards). His usually gammut of conversation went along the lines of 'Chak No No what mean' or 'CHAK ANGRY!' or 'CHAK SMASH!'. That last was often said to the halfling rogue who used to make fun of Chak. Took a few minutes for Chak to figure out he was being made fun of. It was a great character and I had a lot of fun with it.
I remember having a half-orc low int character that wound up answering a bunch of riddles. It wasn't me trying to answer the riddles it was me trying to do what I thought a low int creature would do, the riddle was something about yelling and whispering, and was comprised of two lines, but the character read it as one line together so started yelling "WHISPER" which turned out to be the answer :)
A) I wasn't referring to weapons. I was referring to poison immunity.
Ah, ok, sorry. I don't think it's useless, just not as beneficial for them as it would be for say a barbarian Dwarf.
B) Martial classes receive zero benefit from the Elven Magic racial trait.
Which is balanced out by benefits that aren't usable by Magical classes (Those Elven Thinblades being treated as Martial instead of exotic).
C) That's the point of what we're discussing. In the method we say the Dwarf would only get 1 Skill Point per level. As for options... it was his choice to take a 7 int in the first place, so he always has the option of just increasing his Int to 8 either at character creation or level 4, 8, 12, 16, or 20.At this point all I can say is that it's DM interpretation as the rules don't specify one way or the other in my opinion. Although for PFS it would be nice to know what the "official" stance on it is, despite the fact in my home game I'd have it as I was describing it anyways.
Yeah, I can agree with this. Paizo, unlike WoTC, will need to take official stances on stuff like this for the PFS (not that I do it, but for those that do). I think that's a good thing, honestly. :) I'd always rather have an official ruling from the creators so I know when I'm houseruling and when I'm not.
It is really amusing how much fun these kinds of characters can be. I played a Half Orc Barb with an 7 int once, it was a ball. And recently a member of my group started up a Half-Orc Barb named Thok, who is now in my top 5 favorite characters ever created by my gaming group. I found it almost impossible to RP my character correctly, because he was a high charisma diplomatic type, but I just enjoyed Thok so much i could not bring myself to interfere with his means of negotiation. When a player has the whole group nearly crying from laughter, its not easy to remember what your character would do in response. So in short order, the Half Orc Barb was the defacto leader of our party... it made things interesting for the GM thats for sure.
The most fun I ever had with a character was a AD&D Half-Orc Barbarian called Chak. Chak had a 5 Intelligence. He carried a great club that was bound up with iron and had swords driven into it with hammers until the blade stuck through both sides (snapped off the pommels afterwards). His usually gammut of conversation went along the lines of 'Chak No No what mean' or 'CHAK ANGRY!' or 'CHAK SMASH!'. That last was often said to the halfling rogue who used to make fun of Chak. Took a few minutes for Chak to figure out he was being made fun of. It was a great character and I had a lot of fun with it.
I had a half-elf barbarian one time that ended up being the party leader too. He was smart, just really really ugly (8 Cha). He kept getting ticked off at being the leader and taking it out on people he came across in combat. One of his best quotes was "Thank you Orc for the blood you spill! You die in place of that idiot rogue over there!" He was riding herd on the other PCs and trying to keep them on track for the quest (whole party was CN or CG). But the GM picked him as the recipient of the dreams to keep them on the quest. :)
Or 3 if it's his favored class (and really, it should be).If he doesn't choose the +1 Hit Point.
Seeing this made me double check Favored Class. I thought Favored Class levels gave you BOTH! It's either/or? Well, that waters down Favored Class too much, IMO.
Guess in my games, I'm keeping it as both. Gives incentive to continue leveling in Favored Class.
First off, no such thing as a racial preferred class anymore. Second, it's just like any other exotic-to-martial weapon. You still need martial training. The benefit is that if you really want to use that weapon, you can take the feat at first level (as opposed to Exotic Weapon Proficiency, which requires BAB +1). So you still gain a benefit from the racial ability, you just have to choose to take advantage of it.
I would suggest the same goes for humans and their bonus skill point. If they choose to dump INT they are choosing not to take advantage of that racial trait.