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So, no pathfinder fiction... YET!
I have a copy of the Wayfarer #1. Thanks for the suggestion and I am looking at Pathfinder Chronicler. Thanks again.
Can anyone recommend some good fantasy books that have a Pathfinder flavor (however you would define that)?
I haven't read fantasy for a number of years (beyond just starting reading The Hobbit each night to my 4 year old) and I am looking for some REALLY GOOD books.
Rather than stumble around, I thought I'd ask for help here.
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So, no pathfinder fiction... YET!
I have a copy of the Wayfarer #1. Thanks for the suggestion and I am looking at Pathfinder Chronicler. Thanks again.
Can anyone recommend some good fantasy books that have a Pathfinder flavor (however you would define that)?
I haven't read fantasy for a number of years (beyond just starting reading The Hobbit each night to my 4 year old) and I am looking for some REALLY GOOD books.
Rather than stumble around, I thought I'd ask for help here.
The Planet Stories line of books is going to have the same feel as it's chosen by the people who create the Pathfinder feel (i.e. Paizo). The books in Appendix 3 in the Core Rulebook would also be a good place to start.
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That weirds me out, since I really don't like Eberron's flavor. :-/Eberron.
Can anyone recommend some good fantasy books that have a Pathfinder flavor (however you would define that)?
I'll name the specific books, but many of the Eberron stories are, what I consider, pulpish, action-packed, with plenty of mystery and backstabbing. Very Pathfinder ^_^
Warrior-Witch by Marie Brennan
Most anything by Elizabeth Haydon
The Planet Stories line of books is going to have the same feel as it's chosen by the people who create the Pathfinder feel (i.e. Paizo). The books in Appendix 3 in the Core Rulebook would also be a good place to start.
These.
Gor
Ah-hahahahaha!
If at any point you were going to add playing in a self-created setting to playing in Golarion, I'd recommend listening to an audio version of the Silmarillion before undertaking your own mythos.
Creative Director
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My list, of course, is incorporated into Appendix 3 in the hardcover... but the ones that in particular have inspired me to take the Adventure Paths and Golarion in the way it's gone would be:
Imagica, by Clive Barker
Algernon Blackwood's stories
Ramsey Campbell's Ryre the Swordsman stories (and his novel, the Face that Must Die for Norgorber stuff)
Robert E. Howard's stories
Stephen King's Dark Tower stories
Fritz Leiber's stories
H. P. Lovecraft's stories
Arthur Machen's stories
George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series
Clark Ashton Smith's stories
You can never go wrong with Tolkien. Classic, all around.
You said you're reading The Hobbit already and that's great. You'll find LotR to have a more epic feel to it, maybe a higher level campaign.
Yeah. I'm reading it to my four year old. I've read it, and LotR, many times before.
My list, of course, is incorporated into Appendix 3 in the hardcover... but the ones that in particular have inspired me to take the Adventure Paths and Golarion in the way it's gone would be:
Imagica, by Clive Barker
Algernon Blackwood's stories
Ramsey Campbell's Ryre the Swordsman stories (and his novel, the Face that Must Die for Norgorber stuff)
Robert E. Howard's stories
Stephen King's Dark Tower stories
Fritz Leiber's stories
H. P. Lovecraft's stories
Arthur Machen's stories
George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series
Clark Ashton Smith's stories
Just picked up Game of Thrones from the library today. I also picked up Gardens of the Moon by Steven Erickson. I read a lot of Lovecraft as a teenager as well as Leiber, but I think I should pick up some Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories again... I used to love those books.
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Yeah. I'm reading it to my four year old. I've read it, and LotR, many times before.
Good, good. How is your four year old handling it? I'm actually in the middle of a re-read right now and, planning to have kids in a year or so, wondering when they'll be ready for it. Four sounds early to me, but then it is entirely dependent upon the child's maturity.
(Sorry, this is a bit OT... but it's in an effort to produce children who will create and enjoy games like Pathfinder! ;))
I also picked up Gardens of the Moon by Steven Erickson.
I got it formy birthday, I'm reading the series in my rare idle time when ever I can afford the next book.
I'm now on Deadhouse Gates. I really like them, you get the feel of a game world from them, though I was never familiar with GURPS.
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I also picked up Gardens of the Moon by Steven Erickson.I got it formy birthday, I'm reading the series in my rare idle time when ever I can afford the next book.
I'm now on Deadhouse Gates. I really like them, you get the feel of a game world from them, though I was never familiar with GURPS.
I am at the middle of "Dust of Dreams" at the moment. The history of this world is as deep and interwoven as the on of FR.
If you like Erikson and the "Malazan Empire" world, you should try Ian Cameron Esslemont. he and Erikson co-created the world and Esslemont takles story arc that Erikson leaves out.
The Series is called "Malazan Empire"
So far he wrote:
Night of Knives - The whole book is about the Night Surly murdered Kellanved and Dancer.
The return of the Crimson Guard - What it says. The Crimson Guard rturns to Quon Tali. This is a VITAL book for the whole series! Someone very important gets killed...
Erikson also wrote thre short stories about the two Necromancers Bauchelain, Korbal Broach and their Manservant Emancipator Reese.
They are released just now as a single volume.
Joe Abercrombie's books have a nice gritty real-culture basis to them [not that I'm bias lol] - would totally recommend them.
Been drawing some major ideas and flavour from his books for my forthcoming PFRPG campaign
I can't recommend David Gemmell's books enough
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If "Magician" by Raymond E Feist doesn't put you in mind of the "Crypt of the Everflame" then I don't know how to help you ^_^"Magician: Apprentice" or "Magician: Master"? I liked one and loathed the other.. dont remember which was which though.
They were originally one book. Broken up when put in paperback.
That weirds me out, since I really don't like Eberron's flavor. :-/Eberron.
Can anyone recommend some good fantasy books that have a Pathfinder flavor (however you would define that)?
Some of the other Pathfinder is Eberronish idea maybe due to Wayne Reynolds distinctive art work being so prevalent for both
Well, you cant go wrong with Song of Ice and Fire Series, its a bit heavy on detail, but Martin is master about really making you care about characters, and then doing terrible things to them. It makes it much more suspenseful when you know there isn't likely going to be a deus ex to save the hero(es). I would never want Martin to be my dm, that's for certain.
Its not really pathfinder, but if you want something that feels DnD I recomend The Dying Earth Series. After Jack Vance's stories played a large roll in inspiring our magic system. So it is definately worth a look.
Joe Abercrombie's books have a nice gritty real-culture basis to them [not that I'm bias lol] - would totally recommend them.
Been drawing some major ideas and flavour from his books for my forthcoming PFRPG campaign
Best depiction of barbarian rage ever! Even if the books weren't amazing on their own right the way he portrays that character would make it worth reading for any D&D player.
Best depiction of barbarian rage ever! Even if the books weren't amazing on their own right the way he portrays that character would make it worth reading for any D&D player.Joe Abercrombie's books have a nice gritty real-culture basis to them [not that I'm bias lol] - would totally recommend them.
Been drawing some major ideas and flavour from his books for my forthcoming PFRPG campaign
Absolutely agree - he really nails it - particularly with the Bloody Nine, but also to a degree Shivers in the latest book "Best Served Cold"...
I've found all of Joe's books hugely inspirational for characters, locale and flavour...
Martin/Jordan/Hobb/Donaldson/Feist are my favorites. Not sure if any are "pathfinderesque".
My list, of course, is incorporated into Appendix 3 in the hardcover... but the ones that in particular have inspired me to take the Adventure Paths and Golarion in the way it's gone would be:
Imagica, by Clive Barker
Algernon Blackwood's stories
Ramsey Campbell's Ryre the Swordsman stories (and his novel, the Face that Must Die for Norgorber stuff)
Robert E. Howard's stories
Stephen King's Dark Tower stories
Fritz Leiber's stories
H. P. Lovecraft's stories
Arthur Machen's stories
George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series
Clark Ashton Smith's stories
Especially George RR Martin. A Song of Ice and Fire is just phenomenal.
Maybe add The Black Company series by Glen Cook, The Kingmaker/Kingbreaker series by Karen Miller, and Katherine Kerr's Deverry novels as well.
You can never go wrong with Tolkien. Classic, all around.
You said you're reading The Hobbit already and that's great. You'll find LotR to have a more epic feel to it, maybe a higher level campaign.
If we're talking Pathfinder in terms of setting (i.e. Pathfinder Chronicles and Adventure Paths and all that), I don't really see that one.
Tolkien's works are great, but Pathfinder has, in my opinion, a darker feel to it, a less "suitable-for-children" tone.
Just picked up Game of Thrones from the library today.
Prepare to be blown away.
And, before you die of shock: Prepare to forget more than a few of the things you thought would always be true in fantasy stories. And prepare to have to think about this, too: Some of the clichés will turn out to be true in Song of Ice and Fire. Others are ignored, and others still are turned on their head.
And, as I said: You can never be sure what you are dealing with.
And Song of Ice and Fire has a lot in common with Pathfinder: Both are not poetic high fantasy. In both, you will find far worse monsters than a Balrog who just wants to kill. War and violence bring out the worst in man, and neither Pathfinder nor Song of Ice and Fire will just gloss them over.
Aside from the great classics many have listed above (I've been rereading Robert E. Howard's Conan books, and I'm astonished anew at the depth and imagery invoked by his prose)...
Lawrence Watt-Evans has a series of novels set in his own fantasy world, Ethshar -- "The Misenchanted Sword", "With a Single Spell", "The Unwilling Warlord", "Ithanalin's Restoration", and "The Spell of the Black Dagger", just to name a few. Those are all quite solid Pathfinder-esque fiction, with some unusual hints of near-science-fiction among them occasionally.
Naomi Novik's Temeraire series is likewise excellent, though effectively in a non-magic setting. So far it's five books: "His Majesty's Dragon", "Throne of Jade", "Black Powder War", "Empire of Ivory", and "Victory of Eagles".
S.M. Stirling, in the past decade or so, has put out some top-notch swords-and-sometimes-sorcery adventures. "Dies the Fire" is solid, as is the followup series "The Sunrise Lands", "The Scourge of God", and "The Sword of the Lady". Additionally, he's written some great alternative-history swordsplay books, like "The Peshawar Lancers", "The Sky People", and "In the Court of the Crimson King".
Raymond Feist collaborated with Janny Wurts on a trilogy which paralleled his Riftwar saga. The three collaborations were "Daughter of the Empire", "Mistress of the Empire", and "Servant of the Empire".
Greg Keyes put out an fascinating trilogy -- "The Briar King", "The Charnel Prince", and "The Blood Knight" -- which sadly was concluded with a mediocre fourth novel.
Finally, for mad-tinker swords-and-mad-scientists fantasy, there's always Phil Foglio's Girl Genius.
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The first books that come to mind are:
Dilvish the Damned
and its sister book
The Changing Land
To me this captures the feel and style I see when I read anything Pathfinder. A touch of Tolkien and Lovecraft with a lot of basic Sword and Sorcery thrown in for good measure.
Aside from the great classics many have listed above (I've been rereading Robert E. Howard's Conan books, and I'm astonished anew at the depth and imagery invoked by his prose)...
In retrospect, Jennifer Roberson's Sword-Dancer series would seem to apply as well.
Just picked up Game of Thrones from the library today.
Prepare to be blown away.
And, before you die of shock: Prepare to forget more than a few of the things you thought would always be true in fantasy stories. And prepare to have to think about this, too: Some of the clichés will turn out to be true in Song of Ice and Fire. Others are ignored, and others still are turned on their head.
And, as I said: You can never be sure what you are dealing with.
And Song of Ice and Fire has a lot in common with Pathfinder: Both are not poetic high fantasy. In both, you will find far worse monsters than a Balrog who just wants to kill. War and violence bring out the worst in man, and neither Pathfinder nor Song of Ice and Fire will just gloss them over.
Couldn't have said it better. I have actually cried at parts and literally thrown the book across the room at others. George Martin has ruined alot of other authors for me because I consistantly judge them by his writing. With A Song of Ice and Fire your perceptions of fantasy writing will be forever changed.
Oh, and for those looking for a great and gritty fantasy video game I can't recommend Dragon Age enough.
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I'd say Dragonlance. Particularly with the Oracle and Cavalier. Witch and Summoner could easily have fit into some of the more classic story elements. Dragonlance also has a similar sense of exploration that I'm seeing in the AP's, and how they expand the world.
Most of the PF Factions can easily be replaced by Krynnish organizations or lands (Cheliax/Neraka, Taldor/Solomnia and especially Ergoth, Osirion/Ishtar).
Dragonlance also tends to focus on the characters more than the events in the rest of the world, like say FR. I'm not a fan of Eberron, but honestly couldn't tell you about the fiction.
Definitely Michael Moorcock, especially Elric.
Does anyone else think that drow society draws heavily on inspiration from the Melniboneans? Or is that just me?
In case nobody's mentioned it, the list in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook is probably pretty apt.
John Bellairs THE FACE IN THE FROST is listed in Gygax's first DMG as suggested reading and is absolutely wonderful.
I have to admit I was a bit surprised that it wasn't reproduced in the new Pathfinder inspirations list since it's the core of so much of what I've seen of Golarion.
I'd say the biggest match in my mind so far has been Robert E. Howard's Conan stories and Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories. The feeling, to me, isn't so much that "heroes must get involved to make the world a better place" so much as, "whether you like the world as it is or not, its about to get a lot worse unless you get involved."
I wish I could find the post at Candlekeep, but Ed Greenwood had a brilliant comment about the various compass points of fantasy and what sits at them and kind of explained how various settings would "plot out" if you put different genres and the four compass points and turned the whole she bang into a grid.
While Tolkien has always been an influence on FRPGs, I think that in 2nd edition, with its push to get rid of anything potentially "questionable," things skewed my further from the "Leiber/Howard" side of things and much more to the "Tolkien" side of things.
I know there were times when, looking back, it felt like 2nd edition products were not only assuming you would have no evil characters, but also seemed to assume that you wouldn't put up with may neutral ones either, or at the very least they would have to be "high concept" neutral characters that had a major cause to support.
To bring this whole rambling post 'round, I'd have to say that Dragonlance was much closer to the Tolkien side of things, the Realms were in between the Tolkien and Howard/Leiber side of thing, Greyhawk was more to the Howard/Leiber side of things than the Realms, and Golarion is even closer to the Howard/Leiber side of things, in my mind, than Greyhawk was.
That doesn't preclude influences from other sources, nor that Tolkien still hasn't left a certain mark on Golarion's development, just that the tone and themes seem to more comfortably accommodate characters like Conan, Fafhrd, and Mouser than it would Frodo, Sam, or Aragorn.
In the same vein as Howard and especially as Leiber (though not so well done) are Brian Lumley's "Hero of Dreams" novels set in Lovecraft's Dreamlands. A couple of roguish adventurers exiled by death from the waking world, having a bit more adventure than they'd really prefer.
The First Law Trilogy by Joe Abercrombie
The story and characters are amazing, the world is pretty grim and ...well. Just read it. Don't want to spoil anything :)
I have some recommendations:
Malazan Books of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson
Reluctant Swordsman series by Dave Duncan (I also recommend his A Man of His Word and King's Blades series)
Glen Cook's Dread Empire series
Simon R. Moon's Hawk and Fisher and Forest Kingdom series
Cats Have No Lord by Will Shetterly
Steven Brust's Jhereg series
Brent Weeks' Night Angel Trilogy
The Red Wolf Conspiracy by Robert V.S. Redick
Warded Man by Peter Brett
The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss
Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone series by Greg Keyes
That's all I can think of off the top of my head without consulting my library. More to come later.
CJ
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My list, of course, is incorporated into Appendix 3 in the hardcover... but the ones that in particular have inspired me to take the Adventure Paths and Golarion in the way it's gone would be:
Imagica, by Clive Barker
Algernon Blackwood's stories
Ramsey Campbell's Ryre the Swordsman stories (and his novel, the Face that Must Die for Norgorber stuff)
Robert E. Howard's stories
Stephen King's Dark Tower stories
Fritz Leiber's stories
H. P. Lovecraft's stories
Arthur Machen's stories
George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series
Clark Ashton Smith's stories
And thats part of why I am a fan of the world setting, cause of the influences. Especially Howard, Leiber and Lovecraft. Though I would add in Glen Cook as well and the Thieves world anthologies.
Interesting thoughts, KEJR. If you find the Greenwood link, I'd sure be interested in seeing it. Thanks.
Actually...
Very little fantasy fiction reminds me of Pathfinder, other than the fiction that appears in the Adventure Path's themselves.
The same could be said for D&D, except in those cases where the fiction was taken directly from a specific D&D campaign setting.
Having said that, I can readily see where elements have been taken from fiction and adapted. Yet the two mediums didn't capture the same feeling, except in that very specific element. For example: over the years I've been in a D&D game where there was a back soul sucking sword. That of course reminded me of Elric, but the game itself didn't feel like an Elric novel or vice versa. Both mediums had far too many layers to them for me to call them similar based purely on a black soul sucking sword.
Having said that, I do recall that Dilvish the Damned and The Changing Land reminded me a little of D&D. But I attribute that to the fact that Zelazny had a very mechanical approach to magic at times. (Ironic for a man who used a lot of poetic imagery when he wanted). It went so far that the main villain's many hideouts are interconnected between a series of magic mirrors, which some characters 'hack' into, written long before anybody had heard of the internet. Dilvish also had many lesser adventures culminating in the climax of his story, as well as a tendancy to pick up cool magical gear (i.e his magical horse, his magical elven boots, his invisble sword.. trying to steal his enemy's magical wand).
I'm just two-thirds through the first Song of Ice and Fire novel, and I can't say it feels a whole lot like Pathfinder, but I can see that Paizo uses some mature, and at times, gritty themes like Martin does.
(Incidentally, I love both the Martin book and Pathfinder! So it's not like I intend any disservice to either!)
Again, I mean this as no indictment on any fiction, or on Pathfinder itself.
I imagine that a full length novel written in the Golarion campaign setting will feel like Pathfinder to me. I look forward to it, while hoping they get a good author. I didn't often care for some of the TSR and/or WOTC novels.. Though it has been literally decades since I tried to read any (FR was still young).
Paizo, take heart! It's not so bad to have your own distinct flavor!
EDIT: I have never read a Robert Howard novel, specifically Conan. I have however read Tolkien and Lieber. That might be where my eduation is lacking.
But upon re-reading KEJ's recent post.. There is a materialism in PF/D&D that just isn't in fantasy fiction. They are 'gear' oriented games with a parallel emphasis on self-improvement (i.e. going through the levels). That's not a condemnation, I accept that as fact. However that particular slant just isn't in most fantasy fiction (or at least I don't see it).
I try not to emphasize that very strongly in my games, preferring to accent the story. But it's a necessary evil that sort of works against any similarity to fantasy fiction.
That's one reason I was asking for rules on "improving weapons" and gear. To de-emphasize the materialism in the game, in order to make it feel more like fantasy fiction.
Interesting thoughts, KEJR. If you find the Greenwood link, I'd sure be interested in seeing it. Thanks.
I wish I could find it. Its in the "Ask Ed" thread from last year, but those threads are huge.
Actually...
Very little fantasy fiction reminds me of Pathfinder, other than the fiction that appears in the Adventure Path's themselves.
I'm just two-thirds through the first Song of Ice and Fire novel, and I can't say it feels a whole lot like Pathfinder, but I can see that Paizo uses some mature, and at times, gritty themes like Martin does.
(Incidentally, I love both the Martin book and Pathfinder! So it's not like I intend any disservice to either!)
Again, I mean this as no indictment on any fiction, or on Pathfinder itself.
I think the SOIAF feel comes in from some of the more noble oriented regions of the setting. And is certainly a flavoring rather than a strict emulation of the style.
Interestingly, Dragon Age Origins feels really, really like a SOIAF, even though it contains a lot of elements that the Martin books don't have, such as elves, dwarves, higher levels of magic, and magic gear. However, the naming conventions and overall themes are very similar, without parroting them.
I'd have to agree. My wife (who is a role-playing purist and one of the biggest fans of GRRM I've ever known) absolutely fell in love with the game and the setting. To the point where she wants to get the Green Ronin setting books and convert them to 3.5 or Pathfinder rules. Dragon Age keeps to some very traditional fantasy elements while looking at them with a very unique and fresh perspective. Much like Martin has done in Westeros and with a very similar feel.
I'd have to agree. My wife (who is a role-playing purist and one of the biggest fans of GRRM I've ever known) absolutely fell in love with the game and the setting. To the point where she wants to get the Green Ronin setting books and convert them to 3.5 or Pathfinder rules. Dragon Age keeps to some very traditional fantasy elements while looking at them with a very unique and fresh perspective. Much like Martin has done in Westeros and with a very similar feel.
Since there are GRRM fans here, I'll mention that Pat's Fantasy Hotlist is having a give-away of the two latest Wild Cards mosaic novels, INSIDE STRAIGHT and BUSTED FLUSH (the second of which I have a story in), to get everyone ready for the release of the third of the Committee Triad SUICIDE KINGS coming out this month:
http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2009/11/win-set-of-wild-cards-novels.htm l.
Admittedly Wild Cards and Westeros are separate worlds, but there's the same author behind them, so you can still find some inspiration there at least once you translate the setting.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Since there are GRRM fans here, I'll mention that Pat's Fantasy Hotlist is having a give-away of the two latest Wild Cards mosaic novels, INSIDE STRAIGHT and BUSTED FLUSH (the second of which I have a story in), to get everyone ready for the release of the third of the Committee Triad SUICIDE KINGS coming out this month:
http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2009/11/win-set-of-wild-cards-novels.htm l.
Admittedly Wild Cards and Westeros are separate worlds, but there's the same author behind them, so you can still find some inspiration there at least once you translate the setting.
Thank you Kevin, I've always been amused to see where Wild Cards stuff shows up, from X-men to Star Trek to my roommate's sister being a fan.