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Okay, so you are a summoner with a staff with the following(Staff of Noises)
Message (Summoner level 0)
Shout (Bard level 4, Sorc/Wiz level 4)
Great Shout (Bard level 6, Sorc/Wiz level 8)What level slot do you have to use to charge the staff? You can, since you have message in your list, but would you have to use a 5th level slot, or an 8th level slot that you can never have (since you have a max of 6th level spells)?
Nope, I can't recharge it as a summoner. It doesn't matter that the Message spell is on my list, I can't meet the spell level requirements.
It's the same as if I had a sorcerer who had 6th level spells. That same sorcerer can't recharge the staff, even though Shout is a sorcerer spell that I can cast per level. I can't meet the max spell level of 8, because I don't have 8th level spells yet.
Now, if you know that the staff was made with the bard version of great shout (which would adjust the cost as compaired to the Sorc/Wiz version) then you could charge it, since the highest spell level is 6th.
That is the problem. You either have to reverse engineer the price to find out which version of the spell was used, or just pick the closest caster.
So, if we make it like this:
Message (1)
Shout (1)
Great Shout (2)
It would cost 40,000gp to be made by a bard, 44,800gp to be made by a Wizard, and 46,400gp to be made by a sorcerer.
Alright now for the harder question:
Summoner trying to recharge
Dominate monster (summoner 6 , S/W 9)
Finger of Death (S/W 7)
Is it a level 6, 7, or 9?
It's not all that hard. :(
Is Dominate Monster on your list?
Yes. Level is? 6
Dominate Monster 6
Is Finger of Death on your list?
No. Highest level it can be cast at? 7
Finger of Death 7
Highest level spell? 7.
Summoner cannot recharge ever.
The problem being is that by RAW you are wrong.You can make a staff of the third level spell charm monster if you were a bard with craft staff it would have CL 8 (min for the staff) and be priced accordingly.
A wizard would need to know how to cast charm monster (the only spell in the staff) and would need a 3rd level slot to recharge it.
The DC for the spell would be 13+stat+feats.
Now if the staff also had, say, detect magic as a spell then anyone with detect magic could recharge it by using a 3rd level spell slot. To activate the charm monster spell they'd either need it on their list or UMD it.
It's just like a bard electing to make a wand of charm monster which would be priced at (750gpxCL7xSpell-level 3)=15750gp. It would be DC 14 (13+ 3/2=14).
-James
No, I'm not. I'm absolutely correct by RAW.
You are conflating CREATING a staff with RECHARGING a staff. It's exactly 2 different scenarios.
What spells were used to create it is completely and totally irrelevant. The fact the creator was a bard is irrelevant.
The staff has specific spells in it, and it follows the recharge rules regardless of what class made it. Certain classes can make it earlier or cheaper, yay. The Caster Level of the item is lower, it's cheaper, and the spells get cast as if by a lower level caster. Oh well. None of that has anything to do with recharging it.
Alright now for the harder question:
Summoner trying to recharge
Dominate monster (summoner 6 , S/W 9)
Finger of Death (S/W 7)
Is it a level 6, 7, or 9?It's not all that hard. :(
Is Dominate Monster on your list?
Yes. Level is? 6
Dominate Monster 6
Is Finger of Death on your list?
No. Highest level it can be cast at? 7
Finger of Death 7Highest level spell? 7.
Summoner cannot recharge ever.
However, Dominate Monster does have a higher spell level than finger of death.
No, I'm not. I'm absolutely correct by RAW
The staff has specific spells in it, and it follows the recharge rules regardless of what class made it. Certain classes can make it earlier or cheaper, yay. The Caster Level of the item is lower, it's cheaper, and the spells get cast as if by a lower level caster. Oh well. None of that has anything to do with recharging it.
Actually it does.
The staff in question is a staff of a 3rd level spell. That level sets the DC for the spell when cast from the staff. That level also sets what is needed to recharge it.
That this spell is also a 4th level wizard spell has no meaning whatsoever for the staff.
What would you say it took to recharge a staff of charm monster? What level spell?
Also what is the price of this staff? And the save DC if you differ from mine?
-James
No, actually it doesn't.
Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.
Nothing in the recharge rules say anything about the staff's caster level. it only talks about slots of a level equal to the highest level spell cast by the staff. For spells on your spell list, you use your spell list's level. For spells not on your spell list, you use the highest spell level. Again, I think the rules need to be rewritten to avoid issues with new spellcasting classes getting spells at later levels, but that's the RAW.
For spells not on your spell list, you use the highest spell level
I don't see that anywhere.
However, Dominate Monster does have a higher spell level than finger of death.
Not for the summoner it doesn't. You use the summoner's spell level, since it's on his class spell list.
Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.
Note bolded sentence above.
Staff of FireAura moderate evocation; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 18,950 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Description
Crafted from bronzewood with brass bindings, this staff allows use of the following spells:
* Burning hands (1 charge)
* Fireball (2 charges)
* Wall of fire (3 charges)Construction
Requirements Craft Staff, burning hands, fireball, wall of fire; Cost 9,475 gp
Note bolded bit above.
Wall of FireSchool evocation [fire]; Level druid 5, sorcerer/wizard 4
The sorcerer in the quoted rules example is using the level of the spell from his spell list and ignoring the druid level 5. If it was a bard instead, he'd have to use the Druid level 5, but the sorcerer uses the sorcerer 4.
For spells not on your spell list, you use the highest spell levelI don't see that anywhere.
Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff.
You either have to interpret that bit as 'highest level of spell not on your list' or you have to interpret it as 'you can't recharge if there is a spell not on your list' since you wouldn't have a spell level slot for it.
If it was a bard instead, he'd have to use the Druid level 5, but the sorcerer uses the sorcerer 4.
This is the ambiguous part. It is quite clear that the highest level spell is Wall of Fire, yet we don't know what level it is for a bard. It is equally arbitrary to call it at 5 or 4 since there are no rules for determining the spell level of spells that are have different levels for different classes when you're none of the classes.
Just to make things more annoying, at what level can a Druid / Wizard theurge recharge a staff of fire?
If it was a bard instead, he'd have to use the Druid level 5, but the sorcerer uses the sorcerer 4.This is the ambiguous part. It is quite clear that the highest level spell is Wall of Fire, yet we don't know what level it is for a bard. It is equally arbitrary to call it at 5 or 4 since there are no rules for determining the spell level of spells that are have different levels for different classes when you're none of the classes.
Just to make things more annoying, at what level can a Druid / Wizard theurge recharge a staff of fire?
I don't see why it's ambiguous. Is Wall of Fire 4 higher than Wall of Fire 5?
No it's not.
A druid/wizard theurge could use either. He could expend a 4th level slot (from his wizard spells) or a 5th level slot (from his druid spells). It's completely up to him.
If it was a bard instead, he'd have to use the Druid level 5, but the sorcerer uses the sorcerer 4.This is the ambiguous part. It is quite clear that the highest level spell is Wall of Fire, yet we don't know what level it is for a bard. It is equally arbitrary to call it at 5 or 4 since there are no rules for determining the spell level of spells that are have different levels for different classes when you're none of the classes.
Just to make things more annoying, at what level can a Druid / Wizard theurge recharge a staff of fire?
I don't see why it's ambiguous. Is Wall of Fire 4 higher than Wall of Fire 5?
No it's not.
A druid/wizard theurge could use either. He could expend a 4th level slot (from his wizard spells) or a 5th level slot (from his druid spells). It's completely up to him.
Wall of Fire 5 is higher than Wall of Fire 4 because Wall of Fire 5 when used in conjunction with dazing spell will daze for 5 rounds rather than 4.
Also the theurge must spend the highest level slot, a level 4 slot is lower level than a level 5.
Wall of Fire 5 is higher than Wall of Fire 4 because Wall of Fire 5 when used in conjunction with dazing spell will daze for 5 rounds rather than 4.If it was a bard instead, he'd have to use the Druid level 5, but the sorcerer uses the sorcerer 4.This is the ambiguous part. It is quite clear that the highest level spell is Wall of Fire, yet we don't know what level it is for a bard. It is equally arbitrary to call it at 5 or 4 since there are no rules for determining the spell level of spells that are have different levels for different classes when you're none of the classes.
Just to make things more annoying, at what level can a Druid / Wizard theurge recharge a staff of fire?
I don't see why it's ambiguous. Is Wall of Fire 4 higher than Wall of Fire 5?
No it's not.
A druid/wizard theurge could use either. He could expend a 4th level slot (from his wizard spells) or a 5th level slot (from his druid spells). It's completely up to him.
What has dazing spell got to do with it? *sigh* I give up, do whatever you want, I think you're just pulling out things to try to make it more complicated than the very clear rules make it out to be.
What has dazing spell got to do with it? *sigh* I give up, do whatever you want, I think you're just pulling out things to try to make it more complicated than the very clear rules make it out to be.Wall of Fire 5 is higher than Wall of Fire 4 because Wall of Fire 5 when used in conjunction with dazing spell will daze for 5 rounds rather than 4.If it was a bard instead, he'd have to use the Druid level 5, but the sorcerer uses the sorcerer 4.This is the ambiguous part. It is quite clear that the highest level spell is Wall of Fire, yet we don't know what level it is for a bard. It is equally arbitrary to call it at 5 or 4 since there are no rules for determining the spell level of spells that are have different levels for different classes when you're none of the classes.
Just to make things more annoying, at what level can a Druid / Wizard theurge recharge a staff of fire?
I don't see why it's ambiguous. Is Wall of Fire 4 higher than Wall of Fire 5?
No it's not.
A druid/wizard theurge could use either. He could expend a 4th level slot (from his wizard spells) or a 5th level slot (from his druid spells). It's completely up to him.
Because dazing spell counts spell level, and a theoretical metamagic spell trigger feat might come up and which point it would be nice to know how long a druid / wiz theurge dazes people with it. Answering this question will answer what level wall of fire is for purposes of recharging a staff.
What has dazing spell got to do with it? *sigh* I give up, do whatever you want, I think you're just pulling out things to try to make it more complicated than the very clear rules make it out to be.
Welcome to my world. :)
Because dazing spell counts spell level, and a theoretical metamagic spell trigger feat might come up and which point it would be nice to know how long a druid / wiz theurge dazes people with it. Answering this question will answer what level wall of fire is for purposes of recharging a staff.
No, it won't answer it. If you cast Wall of Flame with dazing spell as a druid, it lasts 5 rounds because you used up a level 5 spell slot. That has nothing to do with recharging a staff which says take the highest level spell slot to recharge. If you wanted, you could take a level 9 slot to charge a stave with a max spell level of 5. That wouldn't magically change the staff. The idea is, what is the minimum I have to expend. And I've already gone over that, quoted rules, etc. You simply choose to ignore the rules. Go for it. Have fun.
What has dazing spell got to do with it? *sigh* I give up, do whatever you want, I think you're just pulling out things to try to make it more complicated than the very clear rules make it out to be.Welcome to my world. :)
LOL, you just can't answer some peoples questions, because they don't like the answer. They want their answer, not the answer. ;)
LOL, you just can't answer some peoples questions, because they don't like the answer. They want their answer, not the answer. ;)What has dazing spell got to do with it? *sigh* I give up, do whatever you want, I think you're just pulling out things to try to make it more complicated than the very clear rules make it out to be.Welcome to my world. :)
I mostly just want the corner cases dealt with for when I have to adjudicate them.
No, it won't answer it.
But it would answer what level is the wall of fire when the bard uses the staff. It does seem rather strange that the DC for Wall of Fire would change when the staff gets handed over from the druid to a wizard as per the thread about a wand moving at the speed of light.
No, it won't answer it.But it would answer what level is the wall of fire when the bard uses the staff. It does seem rather strange that the DC for Wall of Fire would change when the staff gets handed over from the druid to a wizard as per the thread about a wand moving at the speed of light.
It doesn't. Not sure where you would get that idea.
The staves section specifically says you use the CL of the staff or your own if applicable whichever is higher.
Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.
You use the higher of either the staff's CL, or the caster's CL. If the spell is on his list, and his CL is higher than the staffs, then he uses his CL. If it's not on his list, or his CL is not higher than the CL of the staff, he uses the Staff's CL.
She's not talking CL, she's talking spell level.
I believe the general rule for magic items is you price and treat the spell in a spell trigger item as being at the lowest applicable spell level. Thus, the wall of fire from a Staff of Fire should be a 4th level spell.
YMMV. It certainly would be thematic for it to be 5th, since Burning Hands is 1 charge, Fireball is 2 at level 3, and Wall of Fire would fit as 3 charges at 5...but level 1 + level 3 = 3 charges is the same math! I CANNOT see it being a 4th level spell for a wizard using the staff, and 'suddenly' becoming 5th level if a Druid uses it.
So, yeah, exactly what level for the SPELL in the staff do you use, Sean, if it has multiple levels in different classes? Lowest applicable from the primary casting classes?
==Aelryinth
No, it won't answer it.But it would answer what level is the wall of fire when the bard uses the staff. It does seem rather strange that the DC for Wall of Fire would change when the staff gets handed over from the druid to a wizard as per the thread about a wand moving at the speed of light.It doesn't. Not sure where you would get that idea.
The staves section specifically says you use the CL of the staff or your own if applicable whichever is higher.
Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.
You use the higher of either the staff's CL, or the caster's CL. If the spell is on his list, and his CL is higher than the staffs, then he uses his CL. If it's not on his list, or his CL is not higher than the CL of the staff, he uses the Staff's CL.
CL doesn't play into DC or staff recharging at all. Spell level is completely different. The DC for a wall of fire isn't going change between levels 1 and 20 (assuming no casting stat changes or feats).
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CL != Save DC, and save DC does depend upon spell level. I.e. you need to know the spell level to determine the spell save DC.
I think going back to what caster made the staff solves the problem. I.e. the reason a wizard could recharge the example staff with a 5th level slot is that the example presumes a wizard and not a druid created that staff. This would result in some casters (perhaps perversely) benefitting from the spell list cross over (i.e. if a summoner creates a summon monster staff a wizard could use it at an earlier level).
The other option would be to consistently default to the highest spell level of any caster. But then some classes like bard and sorcerer get screwed.
I think mdt's system would produce fewer oddities and less work, but seems like a house rule.
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Now, if you know that the staff was made with the bard version of great shout (which would adjust the cost as compaired to the Sorc/Wiz version) then you could charge it, since the highest spell level is 6th.
That is the problem. You either have to reverse engineer the price to find out which version of the spell was used, or just pick the closest caster.
So, if we make it like this:
Staff of Noise
Message (1)
Shout (1)
Great Shout (2)It would cost 40,000gp to be made by a bard, 44,800gp to be made by a Wizard, and 46,400gp to be made by a sorcerer.
So, how about the summoner recharging these staffs?
Staff of Noise 1 (made by bard) 40,000 gp
Staff of Noise 2 (made by Wizard) 44,800 gp
Staff of noise 3 (made by sorcerer) 46,400 gp
She's not talking CL, she's talking spell level.
I believe the general rule for magic items is you price and treat the spell in a spell trigger item as being at the lowest applicable spell level. Thus, the wall of fire from a Staff of Fire should be a 4th level spell.
YMMV. It certainly would be thematic for it to be 5th, since Burning Hands is 1 charge, Fireball is 2 at level 3, and Wall of Fire would fit as 3 charges at 5...but level 1 + level 3 = 3 charges is the same math! I CANNOT see it being a 4th level spell for a wizard using the staff, and 'suddenly' becoming 5th level if a Druid uses it.
So, yeah, exactly what level for the SPELL in the staff do you use, Sean, if it has multiple levels in different classes? Lowest applicable from the primary casting classes?
==Aelryinth
Ok, I thought she was talking about things based off the caster level, which most spells base things off of. The specific spell level should probably follow the same rules for charging, to be consistent. Spell level = your caster list spell level if it's on it, or the highest there if it doesn't.
CL != Save DC, and save DC does depend upon spell level. I.e. you need to know the spell level to determine the spell save DC.
I think going back to what caster made the staff solves the problem. I.e. the reason a wizard could recharge the example staff with a 5th level slot is that the example presumes a wizard and not a druid created that staff. This would result in some casters (perhaps perversely) benefitting from the spell list cross over (i.e. if a summoner creates a summon monster staff a wizard could use it at an earlier level).
The other option would be to consistently default to the highest spell level of any caster. But then some classes like bard and sorcerer get screwed.
I think mdt's system would produce fewer oddities and less work, but seems like a house rule.
I don't see anything in the rules that said the staff was made by a wizard/sorcerer.
Anything that involves keeping track of who made a staff is going to add overhead and headaches, and it's also going to be a houserule.
Nothing I posted was a violation of RAW, and was based on reading just the RAW. I will admit that it's my interpretation of how the rules as written work, but there's no way around that. When rules aren't spelled out in explicit detail, the GM has to interpret them. My interpretations usually go with the minimum of oddities and work (as you said).
Where are you getting caster level from?
I was responding to someone who mentioned caster level, I wasn't advocating it had anything to do with recharging (please see the post you quoted, where it says that?).
And you don't use the levels that happen to appear on your spell list, rather you use the spell levels that are in the staff.
Wrong. That makes no sense. You don't store 'levels' in the staff (although I admit that might make a more workable recharge system). You use charges. To put a charge into the staff, you have to give up a spell slot, no more than one per day (this is all in the rules, I can't believe I'm having to retype this).
When you use the staff, if it has 10 charges, and you want to cast wall of fire, it takes 3 charges to do so.
You're saying that a staff of wall of fire either needs a summoner to expend a 3rd level slot, a wizard to expend a 4th level slot or a druid to expend a 5th level slot to recharge?
No, that's not what I said, quit putting words in my mouth. I said it can be recharged one charge per day. The slot required to be expended to do that recharge varies by class.
The specific example of a Staff of Fire (not staff of wall of fire) is that a Druid can expend a 5th level slot to recharge it, or a Sorcerer/Wizard could recharge it with a 4th level slot. If a summoner has wall of fire on his list as a 3rd level spell, then he can expend a 3rd level slot to recharge it (I don't know if that's on his list or not). If it's a bard, who doesn't have the spell on his list, he has to go with the highest spell (5th level) to recharge it. A ranger couldn't recharge it, because he doesn't have 5th level slots.
So the 'highest level of spell in the staff' is variable depending on the user?
No, it's variable depending on the charger, who is not the user. Again, you are conflating activating and using the staff with recharging the staff.
Does the base DC of a staff of charm monster change based upon
the user?
We don't have anything on the rules for that, so let's look at the text for the staff.
Using Staves: Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder's ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than those from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependent on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are also harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target's spell resistance.
Nothing there about using the spell level in the staff, because that isn't part of the staff's description. It just lists the spell, not anything else. So, use whichever method you prefer. The wording says that they are more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. I would personally rule that you use the spell level from your list, or the highest spell level if it's not on your list (same as for recharging, to keep things working the same way). If you prefer to make it so every staff has to have a maker's mark on it to indicate who created it and fix the spell level of every spell in it on creation, go for it, but that's a houserule, as there's nothing in the rules about that.
And there's nothing saying that it is the highest of the spell list levels available other than in posts by you.I think that you are confusing the myriad of uses of the word 'level' here.
Perhaps you could go back and answer my questions on a staff of charm monster. Backing up answers would be great, but I'll settle for answers.
-James
James, you obviously don't read my posts. I answered about the 'spell list available' things above. Which is a higher level spell? A Bard level 4 spell, or a sorcerer level 5 spell? Obviously, the sorcerer spell is a higher level spell. I don't know how you can argue that. The recharge specifically says highest level spell, but then gives an example of a sorcerer using a 4th level spell slot because the spell in question is a level 4 for a sorcerer.
Actually it does.The staff in question is a staff of a 3rd level spell. That level sets the DC for the spell when cast from the staff. That level also sets what is needed to recharge it.
That this spell is also a 4th level wizard spell has no meaning whatsoever for the staff.
What would you say it took to recharge a staff of charm monster? What level spell?
Also what is the price of this staff? And the save DC if you differ from mine?
-James
Staff of Charm Monster
Charm Monster
If created by a bard, costs as if it were a 3rd level spell for creation purposes, has a minimum CL of 7th.
If created by a sorcerer, costs as if it were a 4th level spell for creation purposes, has a minimum CL of 6th.
If created by a wizard, costs as if it were a 4th level spell for creation purposes, has a minimum CL of 5th.
To recharge the staff, regardless of who created it, would be a 3rd level slot for a bard, and a 4th level slot for a wizard or sorcerer. Recharge has nothing to do with who created the staves. It only has to do with the spells in it, and what level they are. A summoner would need a 4th level slot to recharge, same as a cleric.
Costs (assuming minimum caster level):
Bard : 400 × 3 × 7 = 8400, CL 7th
Sorcerer : 400 x 4 x 6 = 8800, CL 6th
Wizard : 400 x 4 x 5 = 8000, CL 5th
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Actually it does.The staff in question is a staff of a 3rd level spell. That level sets the DC for the spell when cast from the staff. That level also sets what is needed to recharge it.
That this spell is also a 4th level wizard spell has no meaning whatsoever for the staff.
What would you say it took to recharge a staff of charm monster? What level spell?
Also what is the price of this staff? And the save DC if you differ from mine?
-James
Staff of Charm Monster
Charm Monster
If created by a bard, costs as if it were a 3rd level spell for creation purposes, has a minimum CL of 7th.
If created by a sorcerer, costs as if it were a 4th level spell for creation purposes, has a minimum CL of 6th.
If created by a wizard, costs as if it were a 4th level spell for creation purposes, has a minimum CL of 5th.
To recharge the staff, regardless of who created it, would be a 3rd level slot for a bard, and a 4th level slot for a wizard or sorcerer. Recharge has nothing to do with who created the staves. It only has to do with the spells in it, and what level they are. A summoner would need a 4th level slot to recharge, same as a cleric.
Costs (assuming minimum caster level):
Bard : 400 × 3 × 7 = 8400, CL 7th
Sorcerer : 400 x 4 x 6 = 8800, CL 6th
Wizard : 400 x 4 x 5 = 8000, CL 5th
Minumum caster level is 8 per the PRD. So,
Bard: 400 x 3 x 8 = 9600Sorc/Wizard: 400 x 4 x 8 = 12800
And it does matter, since for the staff created by the bard only has a maximum 3rd level spell on it (and is priced accordingly) while the Sorcerer/Wizard staff has a maximum 4th level spell on it, along with the price.
I know that this is getting into the silly territory with the 1st level potion of lesser restoration being only 50gp from a paladin, but that paladin potion can exist per the RAW also.
BTW, a 16th level Sorc/Wizard made the "Staff of Charming" out of the book. So, that one would need a 4th level slot by raw to recharge. I just really don't want to have to figure out how each one was mad (CL, Spell versions, etc) to be able to recharge them...
Minumum caster level is 8 per the PRD. So,
Bard: 400 x 3 x 8 = 9600
Sorc/Wizard: 400 x 4 x 8 = 12800
He didn't ask about a Staff of Charming. He asked about a Staff of Charm Monster, which would be a custom Staff using the staff creation rules.
And it does matter, since for the staff created by the bard only has a maximum 3rd level spell on it (and is priced accordingly) while the Sorcerer/Wizard staff has a maximum 4th level spell on it, along with the price.
Only during creation does it matter. If a bard creates it, it's got a lower Caster Level, is easier sundered, has lower defaults, etc. The bard could have created it at a higher level (and probably does if he can). If a sorcerer picks up the staff of Charm Monster, then he casts out of it, he uses either the staff's CL or his own, which ever is higher. He also uses his stats. When he recharges it, he uses his spell slots, not the spell slots of the person who crafted it. For him to recharge, it's a slot level 4 to recharge. For a bard, it's a slot level 3. I don't know why you keep insisting on trying to pull the original creator's spell list into this.
I know that this is getting into the silly territory with the 1st level potion of lesser restoration being only 50gp from a paladin, but that paladin potion can exist per the RAW also.
That's what happens when you add new classes, you get new things. Fortunately, not a lot of paladins make potions. :)
BTW, a 16th level Sorc/Wizard made the "Staff of Charming" out of the book. So, that one would need a 4th level slot by raw to recharge. I just really don't want to have to figure out how each one was mad (CL, Spell versions, etc) to be able to recharge them...
Actually, RAW, it would take a 4th level slot for anyone but a bard, who'd use a 3rd level slot to recharge it (unless one of the new casters get's charm monster at lower than 4th). I agree on the not figuring out how it was made. It get's to be a pain. I just assume that all crafters try to make them about the same so that they are all about the same value. For example, the above example made by a bard I'd have him set the caster level to 8th, to match the one in the book, as that seems to be the 'average' CL for the item (Remember, CL's are NOT requirements, CL 8 is an arbitrary choice by the designers, as it's higher than the minimum CL for the spell by a sorcerer). If the Bard PC wants to make a staff at CL 8, he get's a tiny bit of extra fundage for selling it, since he can make it cheaper than a sorcerer or wizard can at the same CL. Oh well, so what? I think that's a good thing, it rewards the players for their class and makes the classes seem more varied.
None of that changes the fact that regardless of who made the staff, the recharging for it doesn't care. It requires a level 3 slot from a bard, and a 4th from other spell casters.
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Minumum caster level is 8 per the PRD. So,
Bard: 400 x 3 x 8 = 9600
Sorc/Wizard: 400 x 4 x 8 = 12800
He didn't ask about a Staff of Charming. He asked about a Staff of Charm Monster, which would be a custom Staff using the staff creation rules.
Yep, and creating a staff always has a minimum caster level of 8.
From the PRD:
Creating Staves
To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled.
The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created.
If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at less than the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell drains additional charges from the staff. Divide the cost of the spell by the number of charges it consumes to determine its final price. Note that this does not change the order in which the spells are priced (the highest level spell is still priced first, even if it requires more than one charge to activate). The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff 's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
Creating a few staves may entail other prerequisites beyond spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.
Crafting a staff requires 1 day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Staff.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).
Minumum caster level is 8 per the PRD. So,
Bard: 400 x 3 x 8 = 9600
Sorc/Wizard: 400 x 4 x 8 = 12800
He didn't ask about a Staff of Charming. He asked about a Staff of Charm Monster, which would be a custom Staff using the staff creation rules.
Yep, and creating a staff always has a minimum caster level of 8.
Ah, thank you, missed that. I agree with the above prices then. 9600 and 12800.
Changing staffs to require a flat recharge spell level would do wonders to clear up this confusion.
Then it wouldn't matter if the staff needed a druid's fifth level spell or a wizard's 4th level spell, because the staff in question would say "Recharge 4th", and that would be the end of it. Then the only question would be "does this staff have any spells on my class spell list"
Changing staffs to require a flat recharge spell level would do wonders to clear up this confusion.
That is the way it works.
When the staff is made the levels of each of the spells therein are set. They are needed to determine the price of the staff (amongst other things).
Once that is set then the highest spell level of those levels used to make the staff is the 'flat recharge spell level' that you are looking for.
If you had a staff of charm monster the recharge conditions would be having charm monster on your spell list and using up a slot during spell preparation equal to the level that the staff sees the charm monster spell, irregardless of the level it might be on your spell list!
Thus a bard made staff of charm monster would require a 3rd level slot to recharge it, while a wizard/sorcerer made staff would require a 4th level slot to recharge it. Neither would change should a wizard or bard be looking to recharge it.
Likewise the DC for the spell cast from the first staff would be 13+ bonuses while the second staff would be 14+ bonuses regardless of the staff wielder. The first staff would not penetrate a minor globe while the second one would even when being used by a bard.
-James
Unfortunately, you are wrong.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/staves.html#staff-of-charming
There are no 'base DCs' set for the staff. If I am a bard using this staff, I get a base DC of 13+Cha for the DC. If I am a wizard, I get DC 14+Int. What you are suggesting means that for me to place a staff of charming in the game means I need to go back and decide who made it. More complication for the DM is not an ideal design.
Furthermore, it complicates things when you have something like a staff of defense. Some of the spells on that staff are sorcerer/wizard only, some of them are cleric/paladin only. What does your 'go back to the origin' plan say about that?
Providing a simple additional line in the staff description would clear this up. No more questions.
I don't know how they priced the staff, particularly the staff of defense with cleric and wizard spells.
I would GUESS, that they used wizard caster level if available, and then run down the list to cleric, druid, bard, paladin and ranger in that order.
However, I do know that if the options are between
James - determine the price of the staff, reverse engineer it to gain the appropriate creator(s), and set the spell level to recharge accordingly.
and
Kain - include a set spell level needed to recharge as a quality in the staff item block for every staff.
I'd prefer mine. It is less work (in the future) on everyone's part, including the designers. However, I'm in complete agreement that my solution is a theoretical one intended to improve the flow of the game, and that yours is a possible one, that one can do today without sending wishful thinking at the designers of the game.
This seems overly complicated. Why not just make it easier? This isn't RAW: you need to have a caster level equal to or higher than the caster level for the staff and be able to cast at least one of the spells. That's it. No need to worry about which spell level you are dealing with or what supplements are coming up next.
I would just let any spell slot of 1st level or higher work. What are the casters doing with their low level slots anyway? Still limit them to 1 charge per day. I don't think it would be all that much of an issue. I highly doubt they are going to break things if they can use a 1st level spell to charge their staff one more time. It essentially lets them convert a low level spell into a high level spell, but they have to use a staff to do it. If the staff is sundered, stolen, borrowed, left on the back seat of the car, the wizard will be out of luck.