Can I recharge a staff?


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Pathfinder RPG SRD wrote:
Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.

The bolded portion is what I have a question on. Does this mean that a caster cannot recharge a staff until they can cast a spell of the highest level that the staff holds?

For instance, an 11th level caster comes into possession of a Staff of Passage. The staff allows the user to cast astral projection - a 9th level spell. According to the above quoted rules it seems that the caster cannot recharge the staff until he reaches a level where he can cast 9th level spells? So he might have to wait through 6 more levels before being able to do this? Is this true?

Follow-up question: If this is the case, does it make sense?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Shadowcat7 wrote:

The bolded portion is what I have a question on. Does this mean that a caster cannot recharge a staff until they can cast a spell of the highest level that the staff holds?

For instance, an 11th level caster comes into possession of a Staff of Passage. The staff allows the user to cast astral projection - a 9th level spell. According to the above quoted rules it seems that the caster cannot recharge the staff until he reaches a level where he can cast 9th level spells? So he might have to wait through 6 more levels before being able to do this? Is this true?

Follow-up question: If this is the case, does it make sense?

Correct; that means some staves are a lot harder to recharge than others, but since those staves are generally the ones that are more expensive and should (in theory) "self select" for higher level games, it more or less works out. And depending on your campaign, you can always hire a spellcaster to do the recharging for you.


Thanks for the quick reply! Good to know I am reading it correctly....and it actually makes it a little easier to hand out these staves as treasure to a lower level group because it still makes them a strategic resource.


You could presumably also hire a spellcaster to recharge your staff for you. I'd expect it to cost the same has hiring an NPC to cast a spell of the given level. You'd probably have to leave the staff with the NPC overnight (or at least drop it off early in the morning), but otherwise it appears to be completely within the rules.

The only potential problems that I see are the standard ones for finding NPC spell casters.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Shadowcat7 wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply! Good to know I am reading it correctly....and it actually makes it a little easier to hand out these staves as treasure to a lower level group because it still makes them a strategic resource.

That's a really good point - I'd been worried that staves would be too good a treasure to hand out at low level now. Trick is to make them *more* powerful :)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Two questions:

1) So, just to double-check, when the text reads: "Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells", that's wrong. He needs to be able to cast the highest-level of the spells. Yes?

What counts as "highest level"? Take a look at the staff of hoarding. It includes legend lore (4th level bard spell, 6th level wizard spell) and secret chest (5th level wizard spell, not on the bard's list). Would a 10th-level bard be able to give up her 4th-level spell slot to charge the staff? What if it included a spell that was 7th-level on the wizard's list, but not on the bard's list?

2) If the highest-level spell in a staff is of an opposed school for a specialist wizard, he can expend one spell slot, in order to cast a spell which would normally cost him two, yes?


Chris Mortika wrote:

Two questions:

1) So, just to double-check, when the text reads: "Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells", that's wrong. He needs to be able to cast the highest-level of the spells. Yes?

What counts as "highest level"? Take a look at the staff of hoarding. It includes legend lore (4th level bard spell, 6th level wizard spell) and secret chest (5th level wizard spell, not on the bard's list). Would a 10th-level bard be able to give up her 4th-level spell slot to charge the staff? What if it included a spell that was 7th-level on the wizard's list, but not on the bard's list?

2) If the highest-level spell in a staff is of an opposed school for a specialist wizard, he can expend one spell slot, in order to cast a spell which would normally cost him two, yes?

I believe only ONE spell on the staff list needs to be known to recharge a staff... not every spell. Additionally, you only put out the raw power of the highest level spell and not the actual spell itself.

If the staff has Magic Missile and you know Magic Missile you in theory can recharge any staff with Magic Missile in it as long as you can also cast any spell equal in power to the most powerful spell in the staff.

To answer your other question the highest level spell in the staff is 5. You use the highest level spell on the staff as the rule. The bard gives up a 5th level spell to recharge the staff. As he does not have the ability to cast that spell, he would not be able to activate that spell via spell trigger without a UMD roll.

Some staves just work better for some classes then other staves... just like some wands work better for some classes then others. The odd part with staves is since they have mulitple powers some characters can unlock parts of the staff but not all of it.

Contributor

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1) The text is correct as written. You just need to be able to (1) cast spells of the highest level in the staff, and (2) cast at least one spell the staff can cast.

Take a staff of defense, for example... it has shield of law (clr 8) and shield (sor/wiz 1). You can recharge it if you're a cleric 15 (as shield of law is on your spell list and you can cast 8th-level spells) or a sor 16 (as shield is on your spell list and you can cast 8th-level spells) or a wiz 15 (as shield is on your spell list and you can cast 8th-level spells). Your spell list provides the right language, your max spell slot level provides the power.

2) Yep, it's energy, not ease of preparation, that fuels the staff's power.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Thanks. That example helps a lot.

One other quick question: is there any hard-and-fast rule as to what spells should cost more than one charge to cast?


Chris Mortika wrote:

Two questions:

1) So, just to double-check, when the text reads: "Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells", that's wrong. He needs to be able to cast the highest-level of the spells. Yes?

No, he doesn't need to be able to cast the highest-level of the spells in the staff, but he must have a spell slot available that is of equal level to the highest-level spell in the staff.

So, you can recharge if:

1 - At least one of the spells in the staff is on your spell list
2 - You are able to cast at least one of the spells in the staff
3 - You sacrifice a spell slot or prepared spell of a level equal to the highest-level spell in the staff

If all 3 are true, then the staff gets recharged.

Edit: Very ninja'ed :(

Contributor

Chris Mortika wrote:

Thanks. That example helps a lot.

One other quick question: is there any hard-and-fast rule as to what spells should cost more than one charge to cast?

It's whatever the crafter wants to set it at in order to reduce the gp price of the staff. You have a 5th-level spell be 1 charge or 3 charges, it just depends on how much you want it to cost to make it vs. resource expenditure to recharge it.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:


It's whatever the crafter wants to set it at in order to reduce the gp price of the staff. You have a 5th-level spell be 1 charge or 3 charges, it just depends on how much you want it to cost to make it vs. resource expenditure to recharge it.

The only problem being is the way the staff formula pricing works:

Take a staff with just cure light wounds (1x/use) and compare it to a staff with sanctuary (10x/use), obscuring mist (10x/use) and cure light wounds (1x/use) and the later is cheaper than the former.

I think that they would have been better off with staff 'templates' that had a pricing on them. And then require expensive material components to be present when using the staff rather than allowing them to be in the staff.

Take a staff of raise dead (10x/use) for example. It costs 25,000gp for the material component, but after 6 uses it's paid for itself..

-James


That's a maximum of 1 use every 10 days, of which you must expend spell slots to recharge. Ergo the staff of raise dead 10x/use would be a really nice value, but the recharging bit kind of prevents it from being particularly impressive.

Well, I'm not impressed at least. :P


I think that the 50 x costly material component required to create staff should not be divided by number of charges used. It make little sense to divide number of material components required by charges used because it only changes how often one can use specific spell and not how many time at all with rules for recharging staves.

Ashiel wrote:
That's a maximum of 1 use every 10 days, of which you must expend spell slots to recharge. Ergo the staff of raise dead 10x/use would be a really nice value, but the recharging bit kind of prevents it from being particularly impressive.

As a partymember I would prefer to not have to use staff of resurrection as often as once per ten days, not to mention even greater frequency, thank you very much ;)


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Do you think it is possible to recharge a staff with Use Magic Device?


Zaister wrote:
Do you think it is possible to recharge a staff with Use Magic Device?

I think not. You can Use Magic Device to register for the item as if having access to particular spell list and spell level but you do not gain actual spell slot to be expended. So sacrificing "no spell slot" will grant you "no charge".


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Drejk wrote:
Zaister wrote:
Do you think it is possible to recharge a staff with Use Magic Device?
I think not. You can Use Magic Device to register for the item as if having access to particular spell list and spell level but you do not gain actual spell slot to be expended. So sacrificing "no spell slot" will grant you "no charge".

I was more thinking about, for example, a sorcerer - who can use a slot - recharging a staff with divine spells, say a staff of life.


Zaister wrote:
I was more thinking about, for example, a sorcerer - who can use a slot - recharging a staff with divine spells, say a staff of life.

By granting virtual access to spell list required... Indeed that is interesting question - Use Magic Device is probably most often used to work with spell-trigger items, at least amongst people I play with so it could actually work.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Drejk wrote:
I think that the 50 x costly material component required to create staff should not be divided by number of charges used.

Do you have a rules reference for not pay for the charges when recharging?

It only makes sense to me that any material components should be replenished (as in you pay cash) when recharging the item with an expensive material component.


What determines the level of the highest level spell the staff has if the spell exist at different levels for different classes.

Say I have a staff with the following spells.

Command
Suggestion
Dominate Monster

As a cleric I have command on my spell list so I can recharge the staff. The highest level spell is Dominate Monster. However what level is dominate monster. It's not on my class list at all. It is a 9th level spell for Wizards but a 6th level spell for Summoners.

So can my 11th level cleric recharge this staff?

There is no precedent in the rules that states that the Wizard spell list trumps others. You could say I have to go with the highest spell level but with what precedent?


You dont have to expend material components to recharge a staff, unless Im remembering incorrectly.


Kalyth wrote:

What determines the level of the highest level spell the staff has if the spell exist at different levels for different classes.

Say I have a staff with the following spells.

Command
Suggestion
Dominate Monster

As a cleric I have command on my spell list so I can recharge the staff. The highest level spell is Dominate Monster. However what level is dominate monster. It's not on my class list at all. It is a 9th level spell for Wizards but a 6th level spell for Summoners.

So can my 11th level cleric recharge this staff?

There is no precedent in the rules that states that the Wizard spell list trumps others. You could say I have to go with the highest spell level but with what precedent?

No, look at Sean's example.

Cleric has command on their class list. They can thus recharge the staff.
Highest level spell is dominate monster, which is a 9th level spell. Thus, a 17th level cleric, 17th level wizard or 18th level sorcerer can recharge the staff.

Dark Archive

Kain Darkwind wrote:
Kalyth wrote:

What determines the level of the highest level spell the staff has if the spell exist at different levels for different classes.

Say I have a staff with the following spells.

Command
Suggestion
Dominate Monster

As a cleric I have command on my spell list so I can recharge the staff. The highest level spell is Dominate Monster. However what level is dominate monster. It's not on my class list at all. It is a 9th level spell for Wizards but a 6th level spell for Summoners.

So can my 11th level cleric recharge this staff?

There is no precedent in the rules that states that the Wizard spell list trumps others. You could say I have to go with the highest spell level but with what precedent?

No, look at Sean's example.

Cleric has command on their class list. They can thus recharge the staff.
Highest level spell is dominate monster, which is a 9th level spell. Thus, a 17th level cleric, 17th level wizard or 18th level sorcerer can recharge the staff.

I think what they are asking is this:

If the highest level spell on the staff has multiple casting levels (for say different classes) and none of the these classes is one you have, what level spell is it?

Mythical spell example.
Burnfoots Wiz/Sorc 5, Bard 3

And you are a ranger, or summoner, or oracle?

Would you need to dump a 3rd level slot or a 5th level slot?


Kain Darkwind wrote:
Kalyth wrote:

What determines the level of the highest level spell the staff has if the spell exist at different levels for different classes.

Say I have a staff with the following spells.

Command
Suggestion
Dominate Monster

As a cleric I have command on my spell list so I can recharge the staff. The highest level spell is Dominate Monster. However what level is dominate monster. It's not on my class list at all. It is a 9th level spell for Wizards but a 6th level spell for Summoners.

So can my 11th level cleric recharge this staff?

There is no precedent in the rules that states that the Wizard spell list trumps others. You could say I have to go with the highest spell level but with what precedent?

No, look at Sean's example.

Cleric has command on their class list. They can thus recharge the staff.
Highest level spell is dominate monster, which is a 9th level spell. Thus, a 17th level cleric, 17th level wizard or 18th level sorcerer can recharge the staff.

Or a 16th level summoner. Can a bard recharge it with a 6th level spell slot? Sinse the spell is 6th level for the Summoner? Bard can cast suggestion so a bard should be able to recharge it.

So can both bards and summoners recharge this staff before a Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer could?

If a Bard can recharge the staff with a 6th level slot then why cant a Wizard? It seems having the spell on the Wizards spell list actually makes it harder for the Wizard to recharge the staff.


I would personally say you use the spell list that closest matches your own (cleric would use wizard because summoners have 6 spell levels while wizard and clerics have 9), but that's not in the rules.


Kain Darkwind wrote:


No, look at Sean's example.

Cleric has command on their class list. They can thus recharge the staff.
Highest level spell is dominate monster, which is a 9th level spell. Thus, a 17th level cleric, 17th level wizard or 18th level sorcerer can recharge the staff.

Dominate Monster is the highest level spell on the list but what level is it? Wizard 9th? Summoner 6th?

Wizard can recharge the staff at 17th level OR a 16th level summoner. Can a bard recharge it with a 6th level spell slot? Sinse the spell is 6th level for the Summoner? Bard can cast suggestion and has access to 6th level spell slots, so a bard should be able to recharge it.

So can both bards and summoners recharge this staff before a Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer could?

If a Bard can recharge the staff with a 6th level slot then why cant a Wizard? It seems having the spell on the Wizards spell list actually makes it harder for the Wizard to recharge the staff.


Kalyth wrote:


There is no precedent in the rules that states that the Wizard spell list trumps others. You could say I have to go with the highest spell level but with what precedent?

It's not the spell but rather the item.

The item has the spell in it at a given spell level.

A staff of charm monster priced as a 4th level spell, doesn't become DC 13+ stat when used by a bard, rather it is still DC 14+stat and goes through minor globes of invulnerability, etc.

Mind you I think that it would behoove Paizo to make some changes on how spells work. Change the ubiquitous use of the word 'level' and make an absolute 'level' for spells that is independent on the level of the slot it takes to cast the spell.

-James

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

1) The text is correct as written. You just need to be able to (1) cast spells of the highest level in the staff, and (2) cast at least one spell the staff can cast.

Take a staff of defense, for example... it has shield of law (clr 8) and shield (sor/wiz 1). You can recharge it if you're a cleric 15 (as shield of law is on your spell list and you can cast 8th-level spells) or a sor 16 (as shield is on your spell list and you can cast 8th-level spells) or a wiz 15 (as shield is on your spell list and you can cast 8th-level spells). Your spell list provides the right language, your max spell slot level provides the power.

2) Yep, it's energy, not ease of preparation, that fuels the staff's power.

If I remember correctly, you can't cast spells on the staff that aren't on your spell list short of a UMD roll. That was the rule for 3.X, I presume it's the same for Pathfinder.


Kalyth wrote:
You dont have to expend material components to recharge a staff, unless Im remembering incorrectly.
Right. There is a possible exploit here, but it's pretty minor, requires custom staves, and should be obvious to any GM running an 11th level+ game. For example, who would allow a custom staff like this?
  • Magic Missile (1 charge)
  • ...
  • Stoneskin (X charges)
  • 1500gp fabricate (Y charges)

When it comes to custom items, the GM just has to have a little common sense.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Happler wrote:

I think what they are asking is this:

If the highest level spell on the staff has multiple casting levels (for say different classes) and none of the these classes is one you have, what level spell is it?

Mythical spell example.
Burnfoots Wiz/Sorc 5, Bard 3

And you are a ranger, or summoner, or oracle?

Would you need to dump a 3rd level slot or a 5th level slot?

To make things really simple. The Ranger, Summoner and Oracle have an impressive piece of wood that they can neither recharge or cast natively. They may be able to use the staff with a UMD roll but can not recharge it. Wizards and Sorcerers treat the staff has standard using 5th level spell slots to replenish a charge 1/day. The Bard gets to recharge it using his 3rd level spell slot UNLESS there is a spell on the staff that's a higher level. If the hypothetical spell is on his list he can recharge it if he has the spell slot for it. If it not on his list he can not recharge it at all, nor cast it without UMD, but can can still cast the spells on the staff that are on his list.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MorganS wrote:
Kalyth wrote:
You dont have to expend material components to recharge a staff, unless Im remembering incorrectly.
Right. There is a possible exploit here, but it's pretty minor, requires custom staves, and should be obvious to any GM running an 11th level+ game. For example, who would allow a custom staff like this?
  • Magic Missile (1 charge)
  • ...
  • Stoneskin (X charges)
  • 1500gp fabricate (Y charges)

When it comes to custom items, the GM just has to have a little common sense.

Remember that with expensive spell compoennts you need to have the components for 100 castings of that spell divided by the number of charges used to cast it. (rounded up)


LazarX wrote:
Happler wrote:

I think what they are asking is this:

If the highest level spell on the staff has multiple casting levels (for say different classes) and none of the these classes is one you have, what level spell is it?

Mythical spell example.
Burnfoots Wiz/Sorc 5, Bard 3

And you are a ranger, or summoner, or oracle?

Would you need to dump a 3rd level slot or a 5th level slot?

To make things really simple. The Ranger, Summoner and Oracle have an impressive piece of wood that they can neither recharge or cast natively. They may be able to use the staff with a UMD roll but can not recharge it. Wizards and Sorcerers treat the staff has standard using 5th level spell slots to replenish a charge 1/day. The Bard gets to recharge it using his 3rd level spell slot UNLESS there is a spell on the staff that's a higher level. If the hypothetical spell is on his list he can recharge it if he has the spell slot for it. If it not on his list he can not recharge it at all, nor cast it without UMD, but can can still cast the spells on the staff that are on his list.

I think Happler missed a part of his scenario. Let me rework it:

Say you have a staff with two spells:
Cure Serious Wounds (Alchemist 3, bard 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 4, inquisitor 3, paladin 4, ranger 4)
Read Magic (Bard 0, cleric/oracle 0, druid 0, inquisitor 0, paladin 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner 0, witch 0)

What level spell slot would each of these classes need to spend to recharge the staff? (Numbers are the spell level for that class of CMW and RM, XX being unable to cast it, followed by the level they would need to be to cast the higher of the two)

Alchemist (3 / XX => 7th)
Bard (3 / 0 => 7th)
Cleric/Oracle (3 / 0 => 5th)
Druid (4 / 0 => 7th)
Inquisitor (3 / 0 => 7th)
Paladin (4 / 1 => 13th)
Ranger (4 / 1 => 13th)
Sorcerer/Wizard ( XX / 0 => ????)
Summoner (XX / 0 => ????)
Witch (XX / 0 => ????)

What level do the last four classes need to be to recharge this staff? For some of the other classes, the higher level spell is 3rd level, which would mean they'd need to be 5th or 7th, but for other classes it's 4th, which would mean they'd need to be 7th or 10th.

Contributor

You're trying to apply rules for new classes to magic items that were designed before those new classes existed.

Best to look at the core classes for what the expected level is, otherwise you're going to end up with many more examples of cheese like 50 gp 1st-level potions of lesser restoration created by paladins (for whom lesser resto is a 1st-level spell).

(This sort of thing is part of why I don't like having different spell levels for different classes.)


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

You're trying to apply rules for new classes to magic items that were designed before those new classes existed.

Best to look at the core classes for what the expected level is, otherwise you're going to end up with many more examples of cheese like 50 gp 1st-level potions of lesser restoration created by paladins (for whom lesser resto is a 1st-level spell).

(This sort of thing is part of why I don't like having different spell levels for different classes.)

Doesn't help:

Bard (3 / 0 => 7th)
Cleric(3 / 0 => 5th)
Druid (4 / 0 => 7th)
Paladin (4 / 1 => 13th)
Ranger (4 / 1 => 13th)
Sorcerer/Wizard ( XX / 0 => ????)

Sorcerers and Wizards can recharge the staff. What spell level does it take them?

I agree about having spell level be entirely dependent on the class and not at all on the spell is problematic.


Bobson is right. This is an area where the rules could use some debate and a decision by the developers.

It isn't limited to staves. There's also a question regarding the cost of consumable magic items like potions. What's the price of a potion of Haste? Does it depend on the class of the NPC who made it?

Ken


Bobson wrote:


Doesn't help:

Bard (3 / 0 => 7th)
Cleric(3 / 0 => 5th)
Druid (4 / 0 => 7th)
Paladin (4 / 1 => 13th)
Ranger (4 / 1 => 13th)
Sorcerer/Wizard ( XX / 0 => ????)

Sorcerers and Wizards can recharge the staff. What spell level does it take them?

I agree about having spell level be entirely dependent on the class and not at all on the spell is problematic.

It's a simple answer. It takes a slot of the highest level in the staff. The highest is 4 (Paladin level 4 spell is higher than Cleric level 3 spell, even if it's the same spell).

Dark Archive

Bobson wrote:


I think Happler missed a part of his scenario. Let me rework it:

Say you have a staff with two spells:
Cure Serious Wounds (Alchemist 3, bard 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 4, inquisitor 3, paladin 4, ranger 4)
Read Magic (Bard 0, cleric/oracle 0, druid 0, inquisitor 0, paladin 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner 0, witch 0)

What level spell slot would each of these classes need to spend to recharge the staff? (Numbers are the spell level for that class of CMW and RM, XX being unable to cast it, followed by the level they would need to be to cast the higher of the two)

Alchemist (3 / XX => 7th)
Bard (3 / 0 => 7th)
Cleric/Oracle (3 / 0 => 5th)
Druid (4 / 0 => 7th)
Inquisitor (3 / 0 => 7th)
Paladin (4 / 1 => 13th)
Ranger (4 / 1 => 13th)
Sorcerer/Wizard ( XX / 0 => ????)
Summoner (XX / 0 => ????)
Witch (XX / 0 => ????)

What level do the last four classes need to be to...

Thanks Bobson for clearing up my example. That is exactly what I was wondering!

Dark Archive

mdt wrote:
Bobson wrote:


Doesn't help:

Bard (3 / 0 => 7th)
Cleric(3 / 0 => 5th)
Druid (4 / 0 => 7th)
Paladin (4 / 1 => 13th)
Ranger (4 / 1 => 13th)
Sorcerer/Wizard ( XX / 0 => ????)

Sorcerers and Wizards can recharge the staff. What spell level does it take them?

I agree about having spell level be entirely dependent on the class and not at all on the spell is problematic.

It's a simple answer. It takes a slot of the highest level in the staff. The highest is 4 (Paladin level 4 spell is higher than Cleric level 3 spell, even if it's the same spell).

Or would the simple answer be to take the caster type closest. For example, the Sorc/Wiz is a full caster (as opposed to the Ranger/Paladin who are partial casters), so you would go with the Cleric, as the closest full caster. (and thus a 3rd level slot).


Sean K Reynolds wrote:


(This sort of thing is part of why I don't like having different spell levels for different classes.)

Which is why I suggest that Paizo eventually have an absolute 'level' for spells that would set the DC, magic item pricing, etc rather than being dependent upon class spell lists that vary amongst themselves (which you don't need the APG to still have many many examples).

Ideally there would be a writeup for each spell that would detail prices for wands, scrolls, effects of metamagics and the like with it.

That a 2nd level wand of cure light wounds costs twice as much as a 1st level wand of cure light wounds is frankly silly.

That a 1st level wand of lesser restoration costs 1/6 the price of a 3rd level wand (made by a cleric rather than a paladin) is just an extension of this blind one size fits all rule.

-James

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
james maissen wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:


(This sort of thing is part of why I don't like having different spell levels for different classes.)

Which is why I suggest that Paizo eventually have an absolute 'level' for spells that would set the DC, magic item pricing, etc rather than being dependent upon class spell lists that vary amongst themselves (which you don't need the APG to still have many many examples).

Ideally there would be a writeup for each spell that would detail prices for wands, scrolls, effects of metamagics and the like with it.

That a 2nd level wand of cure light wounds costs twice as much as a 1st level wand of cure light wounds is frankly silly.

That a 1st level wand of lesser restoration costs 1/6 the price of a 3rd level wand (made by a cleric rather than a paladin) is just an extension of this blind one size fits all rule.

-James

A much more simpler approch would be one that would require that magic item creation feats outside of arms and armor be taken by full casters only. Paladins have no business being wand crafters. They're supposed to be spending that time smiting evil! In fact that's going to be one of my houserules from now on.


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Kalyth wrote:

There is no precedent in the rules that states that the Wizard spell list trumps others. You could say I have to go with the highest spell level but with what precedent?

Actually there is similar precedent in the rules. While it is specified in spell-like abilities section of monsters I think that it could be safely applied to most questions about spell level of a spell that appears on different spell lists.

Quote:
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

I would place witch after druid, summoner after bard and then inquisitor but it is my own addition.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

You're trying to apply rules for new classes to magic items that were designed before those new classes existed.

Best to look at the core classes for what the expected level is, otherwise you're going to end up with many more examples of cheese like 50 gp 1st-level potions of lesser restoration created by paladins (for whom lesser resto is a 1st-level spell).

(This sort of thing is part of why I don't like having different spell levels for different classes.)

The problem is then you wind up having spells coming a good deal later than when they should for a partial casting classs like the Ranger and Paladin. If you eliminate them entirely that causes problems of thier own. ( no clw wands for rangers for example)

This however only a problem for people who insist on making rangers and paladins act like magic crafting wizards and clerics. These are not really classes that should be making these kinds of items.


Happler wrote:
mdt wrote:


It's a simple answer. It takes a slot of the highest level in the staff. The highest is 4 (Paladin level 4 spell is higher than Cleric level 3 spell, even if it's the same spell).
Or would the simple answer be to take the caster type closest. For example, the Sorc/Wiz is a full caster (as opposed to the Ranger/Paladin who are partial casters), so you would go with the Cleric, as the closest full caster. (and thus a 3rd level slot).

That would require house ruling, as there's nothing in the rules about 'which caster type is closest'. There is, however, in the rules, which spell level is highest. Mathematically, 4 is higher than 3. I'm not sure where the confusion comes in. You take the highest spell level. If you happen to be able to cast the spell that is the highest spell level, then you get it at your spell level. Congrats, you got a bonus for using a stave that is built for your class.

Dark Archive

mdt wrote:
Happler wrote:
mdt wrote:


It's a simple answer. It takes a slot of the highest level in the staff. The highest is 4 (Paladin level 4 spell is higher than Cleric level 3 spell, even if it's the same spell).
Or would the simple answer be to take the caster type closest. For example, the Sorc/Wiz is a full caster (as opposed to the Ranger/Paladin who are partial casters), so you would go with the Cleric, as the closest full caster. (and thus a 3rd level slot).
That would require house ruling, as there's nothing in the rules about 'which caster type is closest'. There is, however, in the rules, which spell level is highest. Mathematically, 4 is higher than 3. I'm not sure where the confusion comes in. You take the highest spell level. If you happen to be able to cast the spell that is the highest spell level, then you get it at your spell level. Congrats, you got a bonus for using a stave that is built for your class.

Okay, so you are a summoner with a staff with the following

(Staff of Noises)
Message (Summoner level 0)
Shout (Bard level 4, Sorc/Wiz level 4)
Great Shout (Bard level 6, Sorc/Wiz level 8)

What level slot do you have to use to charge the staff? You can, since you have message in your list, but would you have to use a 5th level slot, or an 8th level slot that you can never have (since you have a max of 6th level spells)?


LazarX wrote:


A much more simpler approch would be one that would require that magic item creation feats outside of arms and armor be taken by full casters only. Paladins have no business being wand crafters. They're supposed to be spending that time smiting evil! In fact that's going to be one of my houserules from now on.

It doesn't solve the problem.

Are bards 'full casters'? No?

How about druids, clerics and wizards?

There are spells on their lists that vary on level depending on which class they are.

It doesn't solve it.

Like I said, make levels for the spells themselves. It does the job.

mdt wrote:
I'm not sure where the confusion comes in. You take the highest spell level.

So you can make a staff that you can't recharge??

First the real ruling is that the staff has a level attached to each spell (that sets the DC of the spell, and price of the staff among other things).

Second, again I say that it's best to make a set level for each spell that shouldn't change because Paizo comes out with another class. Rather it should be based upon the spell.

What level should Charm monster be? How about Poison? Animate Dead?

We both agree that having it vary based on spell lists is bad. I think that having it increase due to a new spell list would be even worse. Rather I think that each spell should have an 'objective' or 'absolute' level attached to them.

-James


Happler wrote:


Okay, so you are a summoner with a staff with the following

(Staff of Noises)
Message (Summoner level 0)
Shout (Bard level 4, Sorc/Wiz level 4)
Great Shout (Bard level 6, Sorc/Wiz level 8)

What level slot do you have to use to charge the staff? You can, since you have message in your list, but would you have to use a 5th level slot, or an 8th level slot that you can never have (since you have a max of 6th level spells)?

Nope, I can't recharge it as a summoner. It doesn't matter that the Message spell is on my list, I can't meet the spell level requirements.

It's the same as if I had a sorcerer who had 6th level spells. That same sorcerer can't recharge the staff, even though Shout is a sorcerer spell that I can cast per level. I can't meet the max spell level of 8, because I don't have 8th level spells yet.


james maissen wrote:


mdt wrote:
I'm not sure where the confusion comes in. You take the highest spell level.

So you can make a staff that you can't recharge??

First the real ruling is that the staff has a level attached to each spell (that sets the DC of the spell, and price of the staff among other things).

Second, again I say that it's best to make a set level for each spell that shouldn't change because Paizo comes out with another class. Rather it should be based upon the spell.

What level should Charm monster be? How about Poison? Animate Dead?

We both agree that having it vary based on spell lists is bad. I think that having it increase due to a new spell list would be even worse. Rather I think that each spell should have an 'objective' or 'absolute' level attached to them.

-James

I didn't say there weren't better ways to do it.

I just said that per RAW, that's how it works. If Paizo comes back and redoes it in UM, that's fine. I was under the impression we were in the rules questions, not homebrew.

As to making a staff you can't recharge, I don't see why that's an issue. A fighter can take feats to make a staff he could never charge. Why is it a problem that a caster can?


mdt wrote:
Happler wrote:


Okay, so you are a summoner with a staff with the following

(Staff of Noises)
Message (Summoner level 0)
Shout (Bard level 4, Sorc/Wiz level 4)
Great Shout (Bard level 6, Sorc/Wiz level 8)

What level slot do you have to use to charge the staff? You can, since you have message in your list, but would you have to use a 5th level slot, or an 8th level slot that you can never have (since you have a max of 6th level spells)?

Nope, I can't recharge it as a summoner. It doesn't matter that the Message spell is on my list, I can't meet the spell level requirements.

It's the same as if I had a sorcerer who had 6th level spells. That same sorcerer can't recharge the staff, even though Shout is a sorcerer spell that I can cast per level. I can't meet the max spell level of 8, because I don't have 8th level spells yet.

But can a bard recharge it? Since shout is an 8th level spell and the bard only has 6th level slots...


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erik542 wrote:
mdt wrote:
Happler wrote:


Okay, so you are a summoner with a staff with the following

(Staff of Noises)
Message (Summoner level 0)
Shout (Bard level 4, Sorc/Wiz level 4)
Great Shout (Bard level 6, Sorc/Wiz level 8)

What level slot do you have to use to charge the staff? You can, since you have message in your list, but would you have to use a 5th level slot, or an 8th level slot that you can never have (since you have a max of 6th level spells)?

Nope, I can't recharge it as a summoner. It doesn't matter that the Message spell is on my list, I can't meet the spell level requirements.

It's the same as if I had a sorcerer who had 6th level spells. That same sorcerer can't recharge the staff, even though Shout is a sorcerer spell that I can cast per level. I can't meet the max spell level of 8, because I don't have 8th level spells yet.

But can a bard recharge it? Since shout is an 8th level spell and the bard only has 6th level slots...

Yes, because the bard can cast it as a 6th level spell, therefore he can recharge the staff because for him, the highest spell level is 6.

The specific (On my list) overrides the general (also on someone else's list).

For each spell on the staff, you determine the level as follows :

Is spell on your list?
Yes? Use that level.
No? Use highest level spell is on any spell list.

Once you've got each spell's level for your character, you use the highest spell level applicable. If it's a level you can't cast (either because you are not high enough level, or your class doesn't get access to that level) then you cannot recharge the staff.


mdt wrote:
erik542 wrote:
mdt wrote:
Happler wrote:


Okay, so you are a summoner with a staff with the following

(Staff of Noises)
Message (Summoner level 0)
Shout (Bard level 4, Sorc/Wiz level 4)
Great Shout (Bard level 6, Sorc/Wiz level 8)

What level slot do you have to use to charge the staff? You can, since you have message in your list, but would you have to use a 5th level slot, or an 8th level slot that you can never have (since you have a max of 6th level spells)?

Nope, I can't recharge it as a summoner. It doesn't matter that the Message spell is on my list, I can't meet the spell level requirements.

It's the same as if I had a sorcerer who had 6th level spells. That same sorcerer can't recharge the staff, even though Shout is a sorcerer spell that I can cast per level. I can't meet the max spell level of 8, because I don't have 8th level spells yet.

But can a bard recharge it? Since shout is an 8th level spell and the bard only has 6th level slots...

Yes, because the bard can cast it as a 6th level spell, therefore he can recharge the staff because for him, the highest spell level is 6.

The specific (On my list) overrides the general (also on someone else's list).

For each spell on the staff, you determine the level as follows :

Is spell on your list?
Yes? Use that level.
No? Use highest level spell is on any spell list.

Once you've got each spell's level for your character, you use the highest spell level applicable. If it's a level you can't cast (either because you are not high enough level, or your class doesn't get access to that level) then you cannot recharge the staff.

Alright now for the harder question:

Summoner trying to recharge
Dominate monster (summoner 6 , S/W 9)
Finger of Death (S/W 7)
Is it a level 6, 7, or 9?

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