One of the things which initially turned me off 4th edition (and made it sound computer gamey) was the description of magic items 'filling slots' on a character. I was interested that Pathfinder adopted the same terminology (or did this arise in 3.5 somewhere?) and wondered if anyone knows why. It's quite separate from the question of whether one can where a scarab and a necklace and derive benefit from both of them. I'm curious as to why the terminology was adopted - anyone have any knowledge about it?
Well, in 3.0 the Dungeon Master Guide started showing a 'Limit on Magic Items worn' table, which basically showed which kind and how many magical items a humanoid-shaped character could worn simultaneously; the table was basically unchanged in 3.5, only it started showing where each item allowable could be worn (for example, Heabands, Hats, Helmets and Phylacteries could be worn on the head in 3.5). Slowly the term 'head slot' started to appear more frequently, basically meaning 'an item which can be worn on the head', and so on.
Pathfinder and 4th Edition simply made this terminology official and even more streamlined (showing on the magic item description 'where' it can be put on the body), so that a character could not accidentally (or intentionally) benefit from two items that could not work together (like a person wearing a small cap and then putting on it a large helm).
One of the things which initially turned me off 4th edition (and made it sound computer gamey) was the description of magic items 'filling slots' on a character. I was interested that Pathfinder adopted the same terminology (or did this arise in 3.5 somewhere?) and wondered if anyone knows why.
You're right! I went and looked, and 3.5e didn't use the term slot yet. I haven't noticed.
I can't remember not calling those body places "slots".
It's not really a 4e thing especially. It pre-dates 4e by a couple of years.
I think there might be better terms for slots, but I can't think of any right now. So I guess it's okay.
It's quite separate from the question of whether one can where a scarab and a necklace and derive benefit from both of them.
Nope, both go on the neck, only one works. No magic bling for Mister T.
Anything that reduces confusion is fine by me.
Would it bother you if they referred to 'chakras', or something similar?
No, not really - in 3.5 they instead used "groups" or somesuch and I never gave it any thought (although I dont actually use the rule, but that's another issue). It's more an association in my mind, I expect.
The "slot" terminology seems computer-gamey to me, although I freely admit that I'm something of a cloistered RPGer so it might just be me and the group I play with. When I paged through 4th edition the first time, the slot terminology was one of the things which jumped out at me (and made me put the book down derisively).
The Magic Item Compendium used officially the term 'Body Slots', and it was still a 3.5 book. But I agree that the term 'slot' reminds more of Diablo or Final Fantasy (not that this is bad, for me)...
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The Magic Item Compendium used officially the term 'Body Slots', and it was still a 3.5 book. But I agree that the term 'slot' reminds more of Diablo or Final Fantasy (not that this is bad, for me)...
I *think* 'slots' were already used in 3.0 terminology? I was personally glad for the limitations, because the rules in AD&D were mostly silent on the issue (i.e. can you wear bracers and gauntlets at the same time? How about goggles, a helmet and a headband? Earrings of Protection on top of that? And so on).
Would it bother you if they referred to 'chakras', or something similar?
I have seen the use of 'chakra's' in the Advanced Gamemasters Manual by Green Ronin. I like their idea of allowing changes to how many items can be worn in each place. They also came up with an idea of specific items for certain classes.
Just my 2 cp.
Whereas the DMG 3.5 on page 213 speaks of "parts of the body" and "groups" in detailing the placement of magic items on a humanoid body, on page 288 we find the term "body slot" in a "Behind the curtain" sidebar.
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One things that's always bothered me about "item slots" is the arbitrary nature of the rule (I understand the chakra perspective, but that's not really how magic reads in D&D). You already have a limit on your magic items in the form of wealth. If someone wants to spend all their gold on 10 magic rings, let them have them, I say!
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One things that's always bothered me about "item slots" is the arbitrary nature of the rule (I understand the chakra perspective, but that's not really how magic reads in D&D). You already have a limit on your magic items in the form of wealth. If someone wants to spend all their gold on 10 magic rings, let them have them, I say!
I agree and with the "like bonuses don't stack" rules you really shouldn't have any balance problems with the 'crazy ring-chick' or the 'Mr. T necklace dude'.
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One things that's always bothered me about "item slots" is the arbitrary nature of the rule (I understand the chakra perspective, but that's not really how magic reads in D&D). You already have a limit on your magic items in the form of wealth. If someone wants to spend all their gold on 10 magic rings, let them have them, I say!I agree and with the "like bonuses don't stack" rules you really shouldn't have any balance problems with the 'crazy ring-chick' or the 'Mr. T necklace dude'.
Exactly. I think an easier rule for the ability-score items is to just say you can only have ONE enhanced ability score.
Creative Director
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I suspect that the idea of a body slot arises from the mechanic's overwhelming presence in video games.
And while I think that the mechanic is a sound one for game balance reasons, it's also a sound one in keeping really ridiculous and silly things from happening, such as someone wearing five magic cloaks or five pairs of boots. And before anyone says that won't happen... I've had professional game designers in my home group try it.
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I suspect that the idea of a body slot arises from the mechanic's overwhelming presence in video games.
And while I think that the mechanic is a sound one for game balance reasons, it's also a sound one in keeping really ridiculous and silly things from happening, such as someone wearing five magic cloaks or five pairs of boots. And before anyone says that won't happen... I've had professional game designers in my home group try it.
Sean, right? I *knew* it! ;)
It still doesn't explain why it doesn't allow us to wear five magic rings on every hand (okay, six for Grazzt ;) )
Let's not rant abou video game terms being dragged to the Pathfinder... be glad that we have a word that won't, hopefully, cause the same problem as the word level (yes, I'm referring to the Order of the Stick again).
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Creative Director
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It still doesn't explain why it doesn't allow us to wear five magic rings on every hand (okay, six for Grazzt ;) )
Let's not rant abou video game terms being dragged to the Pathfinder... be glad that we have a word that won't, hopefully, cause the same problem as the word level (yes, I'm referring to the Order of the Stick again).
Honestly... the whole complaint that "Video games are ruining RPGs" is nothing more than prejudice and panic fueled by ignorance. It's the same type of panic that happened when color movies displaced black and white, talkies replaced silent movies, and TV replaced movie theaters. In all cases, the older medium survived (although for the silent movie, that survival is very very limited), and both mediums continued to learn from the innovations of the other.
There's a lot of great game design work being done in video games that tabletop rpgs can learn from, and vice versa.
ANYway... as to why you can't wear five magic rings, that's actually the only real crunch element that dates back to 1st edition, where it explicitly said you can only wear two magic rings, one on each hand or something like that. There were no rules in 1st edition prohibiting wearing multiple cloaks or multiple boots, IIRC, but there were for rings. And that's probably where the whole idea of body slots or whatever you want to call them came from in the first place.
The Mandarin would have a hard time using his gimmick in D&D/Pathfinder . . . poor guy.
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Creative Director
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The Mandarin would have a hard time using his gimmick in D&D/Pathfinder . . . poor guy.
Nah; he'd just get a special ability like this:
Master of Rings (Su) This creature can wear any number of magical rings and benefit from all of their effects.
A prestige class that (among other things) let you wear a number of rings equal to your class level (minimum 2, of course) is a neat idea too.
Nah; he'd just get a special ability like this:
Master of Rings (Su) This creature can wear any number of magical rings and benefit from all of their effects.
A prestige class that (among other things) let you wear a number of rings equal to your class level (minimum 2, of course) is a neat idea too.
Okay, now I want to see a Mandarin homage in a Tian Xia AP. With a dragon from another planet to top it all off.
One things that's always bothered me about "item slots" is the arbitrary nature of the rule (I understand the chakra perspective, but that's not really how magic reads in D&D). You already have a limit on your magic items in the form of wealth. If someone wants to spend all their gold on 10 magic rings, let them have them, I say!
I know the 2 ring limit (one per hand) has been around since 1st edition AD&D. Maybe earlier (Greyhawk? -- I don't have either of my copies handy just offhand). The explanation IIRC was that the magic would cancel out if you wore more than one ring on a hand. There was also a chance of magic items malfunctioning for Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings due to their innate magic resistance IIRC. The magical interference theory was, I'm sure, there for game balance, but also makes some sense for magical theory. Rather like counterspelling.
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And while I think that the mechanic is a sound one for game balance reasons, it's also a sound one in keeping really ridiculous and silly things from happening, such as someone wearing five magic cloaks or five pairs of boots. And before anyone says that won't happen... I've had professional game designers in my home group try it.
What was he, an awakened centipede?
Honestly... the whole complaint that "Video games are ruining RPGs" is nothing more than prejudice and panic fueled by ignorance. It's the same type of panic that happened when color movies displaced black and white, talkies replaced silent movies, and TV replaced movie theaters. In all cases, the older medium survived (although for the silent movie, that survival is very very limited), and both mediums continued to learn from the innovations of the other.
There's a lot of great game design work being done in video games that tabletop rpgs can learn from, and vice versa.
I agree and FWIW I've since re-picked up 4th edition, got past my prejudice and seen that, in fact, it isnt a computer game on paper - that was just my first impression.
Nonetheless, no matter how rational or otherwise, the suspicion of pen-and-paper games trying to emulate computer games is a big emotional block (for me at least) and I was curious as to why the 'decision' was taken to use the same wording in Pathfinder. It's pretty clear from the above posts that it wasnt so much a decision by Paizo as terminology which has evolved over the years and was already there. I only play with one group (and have for twenty something years I guess) so it's not something we've noticed previously.
I think the "slots" term came about rather organically, from a lack of a more mentally visible restriction.
I think there might be better terms for slots, but I can't think of any right now. So I guess it's okay.
The other term is "Body Location" I believe.
My DMs have always interpreted the rules for rings so you can wear as many as you want but only BENEFIT from two at a time. So if you really wanted to you could wear 2 other magic rings AND a ring of feather fall, but it would take a standard action to activate it and if you're falling it might be too late ;P.
As for other slots it just makes sense. How many helmets are you wearing? Really? Although I don't see why you couldn't wear a helmet AND a pair of glasses or something like that *shrug*.
glasses are a "face" item, as are masks, and a few other things.
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Okay, now I want to see a Mandarin homage in a Tian Xia AP. With a dragon from another planet to top it all off.
Nah; he'd just get a special ability like this:
Master of Rings (Su) This creature can wear any number of magical rings and benefit from all of their effects.
A prestige class that (among other things) let you wear a number of rings equal to your class level (minimum 2, of course) is a neat idea too.
Knight, didn't 'Blackstaff Tower' feature a magic item (a hand, or a pair of hands; can't recall which) that allowed the owner to benefit from the properties of multiple rings?
I can remember a couple of different things from different sources:
In Paths of Magic (3pp) there is a prestige class that lets you wear more rings (and use them for different tasks too),
The Ring sword (iirc) in the arms and equipment guide (3.0) could 'wear' a ring for you that you benefited from while using the sword.
Hand of Glory lets you wear an extra ring.
Savage Species talked about letting characters with more than two hands wear more than two rings (as well as magic item slots for different creatures like beholders, Behir, and the like).
@Asgetrion, could you be thinking of the Hand of Glory? A mummified hand on a leasther cord that when a third ring was placed on it the wearer got the benefit of all three rings, one on each hand and the Hand of Glory.
Just my 2 cp.
Nonetheless, no matter how rational or otherwise, the suspicion of pen-and-paper games trying to emulate computer games is a big emotional block (for me at least)...What?!?! If anything Computer RPG's stole their whole schtick from Pen and Paper, Table top RPG's...
--Vrock the Casbah!
Yeah I know. And being a computer-phobe I resent it (completely irrationally, but hey...). That doesnt mean that the pen-and-paper games of today arent influenced by the computer RPGs though.
As James Jacobs points out (he's so much more reasonable than me) - both industries can learn and benefit from developments in the other. The whole idea of them competing in a "one or the other" way is not a very sensible way to think about it.
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@Asgetrion, could you be thinking of the Hand of Glory? A mummified hand on a leasther cord that when a third ring was placed on it the wearer got the benefit of all three rings, one on each hand and the Hand of Glory.
Just my 2 cp.
Is it just my hatred of elves that makes me think it had to be the hand of an elven wizard used in the crafting of such an item?
Is it just my hatred of elves that makes me think it had to be the hand of an elven wizard used in the crafting of such an item?@Asgetrion, could you be thinking of the Hand of Glory? A mummified hand on a leasther cord that when a third ring was placed on it the wearer got the benefit of all three rings, one on each hand and the Hand of Glory.
Just my 2 cp.
No, that was a Hand of the Mage
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I've had professional game designers in my home group try it.
Don't even need that, the number one problem I have equiping my characters is "too many 'must have' items for the popular slots."
If there were no limits, I'd totally have every item I want and I'd suspect having 5 or more neck items would be common place.
I like the limited slots (despite nerfing me often) because the alternative is just wrong ;-)
No, that was a Hand of the MageIs it just my hatred of elves that makes me think it had to be the hand of an elven wizard used in the crafting of such an item?@Asgetrion, could you be thinking of the Hand of Glory? A mummified hand on a leasther cord that when a third ring was placed on it the wearer got the benefit of all three rings, one on each hand and the Hand of Glory.
Just my 2 cp.
Hand of the Mage is the thingy that allows limited telekinesis at will. The thing allowing you to wear the third ring was really called the Hand of Glory if I recall it correctly.
Hand of the Mage is the thingy that allows limited telekinesis at will. The thing allowing you to wear the third ring was really called the Hand of Glory if I recall it correctly.No, that was a Hand of the MageIs it just my hatred of elves that makes me think it had to be the hand of an elven wizard used in the crafting of such an item?@Asgetrion, could you be thinking of the Hand of Glory? A mummified hand on a leasther cord that when a third ring was placed on it the wearer got the benefit of all three rings, one on each hand and the Hand of Glory.
Just my 2 cp.
Right, I was saying that the mummified hand of an elven wizard was used to make the Hand of the Mage, not the Hand of Glory.
I've played two characters that had an interest in a Hand of the Mage, one was a human rogue that used it to sleight of hand money (most notable use was throwing a copper piece into a church coffer and then mage handing a gold piece out :D)
The other was an Elven Arcane Archer that obtained the hand of Drow Wizard to make a hand of the mage that was more elf friendly (Drow would still qualify as elves enough to make the item). He wanted the item more for the drow trophy than the usefulness.
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You already have a limit on your magic items in the form of wealth. If someone wants to spend all their gold on 10 magic rings, let them have them, I say!
Allowing that would get rid of items that are specifically designed to get around that rule, like the Hand of Glory or the Necklace of Prayer Beads (which has a bunch of little magic items, strung onto a single neck-slot item).
I'd rather see someone with five necklaces or eight rings on than someone with a half-dozen ioun stones, having to constantly bob and weave to see through the cloud of magic rocks orbitting their noggin...
Knight, didn't 'Blackstaff Tower' feature a magic item (a hand, or a pair of hands; can't recall which) that allowed the owner to benefit from the properties of multiple rings?
These are the Jhaarnnan Hands, a magic item which enables you to switch rings on your hands at will. You can still only wear two (active) rings at a time, but (as far as I understand) you can switch every one of your rings with one of the ten others the fingers of the Jhaarnnan Hands hold.
Khondar "Ten Rings" Naomal used to conceal this by wearing a ring on every finger of his hands all the time so nobody could notice that some of them were changing from time to time.
The Mandarin isn't the only wizard to do the ten rings shtick. Susan Dexter's THE RING OF ALLAIRE has a sorceress with ten rings, and Carole Nelson Douglas's EXILES OF THE RYNTH has an epic-level sorcerer with the same.
A prestige class where you get to wear a full ten rings by the end of it would be very sweet for certain styles of wizard and sorcerer.
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A prestige class where you get to wear a full ten rings by the end of it would be very sweet for certain styles of wizard and sorcerer.
Giving the caster a bonus to craft rings and perhaps some sort of ability to eke extra power out of rings could be neat, as a continuation of this theme. Prereqs could include Forge Ring and at least half of your WBL being assigned to rings.
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@Asgetrion, could you be thinking of the Hand of Glory? A mummified hand on a leasther cord that when a third ring was placed on it the wearer got the benefit of all three rings, one on each hand and the Hand of Glory.
Just my 2 cp.
Lanx already posted the name of the FR item I was thinking of: Jhaarnnan Hands (Thanks, Lanx!). :)
@Lanx: I think the intention was that you could swap those rings as a free action, once per round?
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One things that's always bothered me about "item slots" is the arbitrary nature of the rule (I understand the chakra perspective, but that's not really how magic reads in D&D). You already have a limit on your magic items in the form of wealth. If someone wants to spend all their gold on 10 magic rings, let them have them, I say!
this is a sore subject with my group, we have about half of the group wanting it to be "1 ring for 1 hand" but the other half is the esact opposite with "well you have 8 fingers!"
ive always wondered about other magic items, using todays jewelry style, facial piercings, belly buttons, toe rings, and so on and so forth.
usually, when i DM, i let the character as many magic items in "slots" as Feasibly possible, including the occasional Ear ring of Darkvision.
Peebo :D
A prestige class that (among other things) let you wear a number of rings equal to your class level (minimum 2, of course) is a neat idea too.I dub this class "blingmaster," the master of bling.
Don't forget to make it count for necklaces too.
And headgear - you can never have too many magical hats/bandannas/masks/headresses/etc.
The Mandarin isn't the only wizard to do the ten rings shtick. Susan Dexter's THE RING OF ALLAIRE has a sorceress with ten rings, and Carole Nelson Douglas's EXILES OF THE RYNTH has an epic-level sorcerer with the same.
The Sunrunners from Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince series too. Not so direct in terms of effect, but very much a link between rank, level of power, and number of rings.
@Asgetrion, could you be thinking of the Hand of Glory? A mummified hand on a leasther cord that when a third ring was placed on it the wearer got the benefit of all three rings, one on each hand and the Hand of Glory.
Just my 2 cp.
Lanx already posted the name of the FR item I was thinking of: Jhaarnnan Hands (Thanks, Lanx!). :)
@Lanx: I think the intention was that you could swap those rings as a free action, once per round?
Oh, I don't know - the description in "Blackstaff Tower" is all I know about this item, and it is very likely that you are right.
Didn't realize thumb rings were so popular these days.
How about toe rings? Can we add another ten ring slots for those?
Maybe the Blingmaster can allow at least some stacking of the same or similar bonuses.
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The Mandarin would have a hard time using his gimmick in D&D/Pathfinder . . . poor guy.Nah; he'd just get a special ability like this:
Master of Rings (Su) This creature can wear any number of magical rings and benefit from all of their effects.
A prestige class that (among other things) let you wear a number of rings equal to your class level (minimum 2, of course) is a neat idea too.
People ask me how I play piano with all these rings on.
I say,......very well.
I can stack rings. Two or three rings per finger are very doable. I can also wear several gloves one over the other. And so on.
I'll be all-powerful, and I'll be looking like the Michelin man!
I think the "slots" term came about rather organically, from a lack of a more mentally visible restriction.
I think there might be better terms for slots, but I can't think of any right now. So I guess it's okay.The other term is "Body Location" I believe.
Body location sounds weird, too. "Where does this item go?" "Twenty degrees seven minutes three seconds left arm"
Yeah I know. And being a computer-phobe
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