Razz |
Well, with cross-class skills costing 1 skill point now, this feat seems useless. Any idea how to tweak it? It allows Humans to purchase cross-class skills at 1 point per rank. Now I need to think of a substitute benefit.
I never understood the reasoning for that change. With the skills condensed, it seems a Rogue or Ranger with high Intelligence is now going to be TOO skillful. I liked it better before where you really had to specialize precisely.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
This might be one of those few cases where a 3.5 feat or rules bit is simply not something that needs to be retained with the Pathfinder RPG. Alternatively you could maybe treat it as a "pick your own" +2/+2 skill feat.
As for why we changed it, the primary reason was to make skill selection less complex. The notion of half-ranks and being able to have your level +3 ranks at 1st level made for the #1 place for stat blocks to have errors, particularly in the case of multiclass characters, prestige class characters, characters with Intelligence bonuses, and characters who have racial hit dice and class levels.
Having spent over 5 years building and checking stat blocks for 3.5, I can say that the way skills work in PFRPG is a HUGE time saver.
Rathendar |
Well, with cross-class skills costing 1 skill point now, this feat seems useless. Any idea how to tweak it? It allows Humans to purchase cross-class skills at 1 point per rank. Now I need to think of a substitute benefit.
I never understood the reasoning for that change. With the skills condensed, it seems a Rogue or Ranger with high Intelligence is now going to be TOO skillful. I liked it better before where you really had to specialize precisely.
Perhaps allow the PC a choice of an extra class skill when they take the feat, and a second one when they get 10 ranks in a skill. This would compliment yet not overwrite the rules for skill focus.
Peter Stewart |
Razz wrote:Perhaps allow the PC a choice of an extra class skill when they take the feat, and a second one when they get 10 ranks in a skill. This would compliment yet not overwrite the rules for skill focus.Well, with cross-class skills costing 1 skill point now, this feat seems useless. Any idea how to tweak it? It allows Humans to purchase cross-class skills at 1 point per rank. Now I need to think of a substitute benefit.
I never understood the reasoning for that change. With the skills condensed, it seems a Rogue or Ranger with high Intelligence is now going to be TOO skillful. I liked it better before where you really had to specialize precisely.
This is a good ideal. Alternatively have it grant an extra skill point each level.
Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor |
Honestly, speaking as someone who's done a lot of game design (mostly for various editions of MAGE) the Able Learner feat was one of those "I don't want to deal with this stupid mechanic" feats.
Mage Revised had the Stormwarden Merit, which was a Merit that let characters not have to deal with the (generally disliked) raised Gauntlet mechanics.
A game I'm currently playing in is 3.5, but the gamemaster explained that one of his house rules is that all of characters, regardless of race, receive the Able Learner feat for free.
If you want to, you can view Pathfinder, by abolishing extra costs for cross-class skills, as having given every character the Able Learner feat for free. In that case, the easiest conversion for characters who had it before is to just offer them another feat for free in exchange, since it's not so much them losing it as everyone else getting it.
Alternately, you could make Able Learner a human feat that gives a character +3 on all skills, regardless of whether they're in his chosen class or not. Though that might be a bit overpowered. Probably best to just drop it.
Jabor |
Alternately, you could make Able Learner a human feat that gives a character +3 on all skills, regardless of whether they're in his chosen class or not.
I'm not so sure. The original Able Learner didn't have any effect on your class skills.
I would think something as simple as "every skill is a class skill for you" would be sufficient.
Dissinger |
Quote:Alternately, you could make Able Learner a human feat that gives a character +3 on all skills, regardless of whether they're in his chosen class or not.I'm not so sure. The original Able Learner didn't have any effect on your class skills.
I would think something as simple as "every skill is a class skill for you" would be sufficient.
Thats more Jack of all Trades bag...
EDIT: Realizing that I haven't explained enough, let me elaborate. Do that and a bard class feature is essentially a feat away.
Razz |
I understood the reason behind the condensed skills. I'm just saying I think the skills are condensed "TOO MUCH". As in, was there a reason to plug three skills into one quite a few times? Fly was added in, but I think maybe the condensing was too much. Search as part of Perception seemed a like funky to me, though it did trample on Spot when it came to "noticing things". I have yet to test it, but I'm worried about a Rogue with 18 or 20 Int being good at EVERYTHING now.
Well, I guess what I can see with this is I can "push" my players to pour more ranks into Craft and Profession skills. Something I'm sure they wanted to do before, but couldn't really.
Jabor |
I'm not sure how it actually compares to the Bard ability.
The most important part of Jack of All Trades is the ability to make checks untrained - the "all skills are class skills" is what, a +3 to any non-class-skills you spend ranks on? Hardly overpowering.
If you're going to change what the feat does to something totally different, then you might as well not call it "Able Learner". If you look at what the feat did back in 3.5, it was "all skills are class skills for the purpose of how many points it takes for each skill rank."
As such, I feel the Pathfinder version should involve treating skills as class skills, for the +3 bonus. Maybe not all skills - if you go with traits counting as half-feats, compare to the "+1 to 1 skill and it counts as a class skill" traits. Based on that, you might say "pick (3|4) skills, they always count as class skills" is fair.
Dissinger |
I'm not sure how it actually compares to the Bard ability.
The most important part of Jack of All Trades is the ability to make checks untrained - the "all skills are class skills" is what, a +3 to any non-class-skills you spend ranks on? Hardly overpowering.
If you're going to change what the feat does to something totally different, then you might as well not call it "Able Learner". If you look at what the feat did back in 3.5, it was "all skills are class skills for the purpose of how many points it takes for each skill rank."
As such, I feel the Pathfinder version should involve treating skills as class skills, for the +3 bonus. Maybe not all skills - if you go with traits counting as half-feats, compare to the "+1 to 1 skill and it counts as a class skill" traits. Based on that, you might say "pick (3|4) skills, they always count as class skills" is fair.
That's fine, but making all skills class skills is a large part of the allure of Jack of All trades. By making a feat you could take at first level it kinda defeats the purpose of staying a bard.
Hydro RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
Able Learner in pathfinder would turn two non-class skills into class skills (meaning that if you have ranks in them you get a +3 bonus). Seems like a pretty linear translation to me.
If someone with Able Learner later multiclassed into a class which gained those skills anyway I would allow them to pick new skills, or just swap the feat.
As for the bard, the 16th level feature from Jack of All Trades isn't all it's cracked up to be. The only skills a bard doesn't already get are disable device, fly, handle animal, heal, ride, survival, and swim. If he's been playing rogue for the last 15 levels (taking ranks in disable device), he gets a +3 bonus, but that's as powerful as it really gets.
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus |
Able Learner in pathfinder would turn two non-class skills into class skills (meaning that if you have ranks in them you get a +3 bonus). Seems like a pretty linear translation to me.
If someone with Able Learner later multiclassed into a class which gained those skills anyway I would allow them to pick new skills, or just swap the feat.
As for the bard, the 16th level feature from Jack of All Trades isn't all it's cracked up to be. The only skills a bard doesn't already get are disable device, fly, handle animal, heal, ride, survival, and swim. If he's been playing rogue for the last 15 levels (taking ranks in disable device), he gets a +3 bonus, but that's as powerful as it really gets.
Agreed. That is a much better conversion IMHO.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
I think the easiest solution is, if an old character has Able Learner, just replace it with Open Minded (which can be taken multiple times so it doesn't matter if they already have it).
Edit: And perhaps change Open Minded to give you skill points equal to your character level, per the Toughness redesign. But then maybe it shouldn't be stackable. Hmm.
Hydro RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
Korimyr the Rat |
It's a Human only, 1st level only feat, and it's primary uses are to qualify for Chameleon or to drop on a Human Paragon or Factotum. Or, for that matter, a Human Paragon/Factotum building to Chameleon.
Why not cut to the chase? "All skills are class skills for you."
Far as I'm concerned, the more incentives for people to play Human, the better.
Bards are all well and good, but does anyone play a Bard for Jack of All Trades? If anything, they're better prepared to take advantage of Able Learner than anyone-- between their high skill points and Bardic Knowledge, they have an even better ability to spread their skill points around than the Rogue.
Dissinger |
It's a Human only, 1st level only feat, and it's primary uses are to qualify for Chameleon or to drop on a Human Paragon or Factotum. Or, for that matter, a Human Paragon/Factotum building to Chameleon.
Why not cut to the chase? "All skills are class skills for you."
Far as I'm concerned, the more incentives for people to play Human, the better.
And the free feat wasn't a big enough one?
I have a player that played a halfling for all of three sessions before he decided he was going to play a human paladin. We tried getting him outside his little box, and he decided he was going to just play humans.
Humans have enough of a reason to be played.
Dissinger |
Humans are supposed to be the most numerous race and the race most likely to produce adventurers. Be nice if more adventuring parties reflected that.
And I'm still bitter about all the Elves in 2e.
I'm sorry, I had limited experience with 2e, but humans have too much good stuff. Even in 3.0 they were the most often used race, because you couldn't beat a free feat at first level.
Atop that, they get free skill points, then can choose a preferred class to get ANOTHER one, without ever needing a point of int above 10.
Humans have way too many reasons to be played as it is, I find it hard for me to play a human, only because I see too many of them at my tables. I'd rather play the unique and exotic races. Then again, you're talking to a guy who plays the evil races. (Drow, Shadar-Kai in 4th)
Right now my go to class is Half-elf, even if I'm not going to multiclass.
Hydro RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
I've never had a problem with players taking humans in 3.5, and they've been boosted SIGNIFICANTLY in 3.P. Elves got +2 int in transition. Dwarves got +2 wis. Humans got +2 to whatever they want.
If your players don't like humans it isn't because humans are weak, it's because they don't like humans. You're probably just going to have to learn to live with that.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
I've never had a human problem either.
That said, with Pathfinder, I can take a half-elf and not feel 'odd man out'
I think Able Learner just won't translate. All it did is allow skills to be bought point for point. Cross-class skills still could only be half maximum. Pathfinder's made this a legacy mechanic.
Frogboy |
Korimyr the Rat wrote:Far as I'm concerned, the more incentives for people to play Human, the better.And the free feat wasn't a big enough one?
...
Humans have enough of a reason to be played.
Oh no, let's not start this again!
By the way, humans have pretty much been balanced with all of the other races and are horribly underbalanced if your free bonus feat is used for Spell Penetration or Skill Focus (Any). Half-elf is my new favorite.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
I was considering just making it an extra skill point a level, but that would also be a good rewrite for Open Minded, so I may just go with the "all skills are class skills" option - it really helps reinforce the flexibility and adaptability of the race.
I'm also leaning toward Open Minded = 1 skill point per level (can't be stacked), and Able Learner = all skills are class skills.
Yeah, you lose 1/3 of one Bard ability... really, that's no more an issue than an elf's free longsword proficiency giving zero benefit to a fighter.
Dissinger |
Disciple of Sakura wrote:I was considering just making it an extra skill point a level, but that would also be a good rewrite for Open Minded, so I may just go with the "all skills are class skills" option - it really helps reinforce the flexibility and adaptability of the race.I'm also leaning toward Open Minded = 1 skill point per level (can't be stacked), and Able Learner = all skills are class skills.
Yeah, you lose 1/3 of one Bard ability... really, that's no more an issue than an elf's free longsword proficiency giving zero benefit to a fighter.
Except one is a racial ability, and one is a class ability.
Those are leagues different.
EDIT:
How about this, any skill you have ten or more ranks in gets a +3 untyped bonus.
This way it stacks with things like skill focus, and gives the illusion of making all cross class skills class skills at a certain point, with the option of actually MAKING them class skills later.
Jabor |
tejón wrote:Disciple of Sakura wrote:I was considering just making it an extra skill point a level, but that would also be a good rewrite for Open Minded, so I may just go with the "all skills are class skills" option - it really helps reinforce the flexibility and adaptability of the race.I'm also leaning toward Open Minded = 1 skill point per level (can't be stacked), and Able Learner = all skills are class skills.
Yeah, you lose 1/3 of one Bard ability... really, that's no more an issue than an elf's free longsword proficiency giving zero benefit to a fighter.
Except one is a racial ability, and one is a class ability.
Those are leagues different.
I'm not seeing it.
An optional racial ability (that costs a feat, no less) being made redundant by a particular class ability that you pick up later, vs..
a racial ability that you get for free (without spending a feat) being made redundant by a class ability you get now.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Dissinger |
Dissinger wrote:How about this, any skill you have ten or more ranks in gets a +3 untyped bonus.I do like that direction, but the "nothing now" aspect kind of blows for a feat you have to take at 1st level.
How about +1 to all checks with trained skills, increasing to +3 for skills with 10 ranks?
That I could get behind. It gives it a faux class skill feel, which only gets better when it actually BECOMES a class skill.
Frogboy |
I like Open Minded as +1 SkP per level and always felt that it should've been that anyway.
I don't really know about Able Learner. I figured that I would just chuck the feat since everyone pretty much gets it for free now. We actually house ruled that everyone effectively got this feat for free anyway.
Hydro RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
Or, if you take a version of Able Learner which grants all skills as class skills, you could always just not take 16 bard levels. Problem solved.
I don't think the bard has anything to do with that, I think it's too powerful because it's just too powerful. Just the +3 for perception and athletics alone is worth it for any character who doesn't have those skills already, without even looking at all the other skills you might drop a rank or two in.
Disciple of Sakura |
I'll admit, Able Learner isn't vital to retain, except insofar as the Chameleon PrC prereqs. You could just replace it with something else, but it needs to be something a human can take that others can't, so Open Minded wouldn't be a good solution.
Don't know what sort of "human only" feats would be good beyond something like the ol' Able Learner, though. It was a good idea for a feat back in 3.5.
Frogboy |
I'll admit, Able Learner isn't vital to retain, except insofar as the Chameleon PrC prereqs. You could just replace it with something else, but it needs to be something a human can take that others can't, so Open Minded wouldn't be a good solution.
Don't know what sort of "human only" feats would be good beyond something like the ol' Able Learner, though. It was a good idea for a feat back in 3.5.
Didn't you hear? Humans aren't versatile anymore...just half elves.
Fraust |
Razz...kinda had the same issue come up with my first batch of players. Someone forgot to mention the no more multiplying your first level skill points when he was discussing character creation, so we had a five minute long discussion on getting every skill on the list.
I think a rogue with an 18 int is going to still be good at damn near everything, even without the x4...though on the other hand, having an 18 stat is a lot of your points. In my game I opted for 20 point buy, and an 18 leaves you with three left for your remaining stats. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think anyone in my group ended up with an 18 before racial mods.
The new skill system benefits rogues, in that it takes that "gotta have a human with a high int" feel out. A nonhuman with an average to above average int is going to have plenty of skill points. Lets you focus more on your dex/cha/str/whatever.
Epic Meepo RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 |
Disciple of Sakura wrote:Didn't you hear? Humans aren't versatile anymore...just half elves.I'll admit, Able Learner isn't vital to retain, except insofar as the Chameleon PrC prereqs. You could just replace it with something else, but it needs to be something a human can take that others can't, so Open Minded wouldn't be a good solution.
Don't know what sort of "human only" feats would be good beyond something like the ol' Able Learner, though. It was a good idea for a feat back in 3.5.
Well, you could always rewrite Able Learner to give a human an additional favored class just like a half-elf.
Frogboy |
Frogboy wrote:Didn't you hear? Humans aren't versatile anymore...just half elves.Well, you could always rewrite Able Learner to give a human an additional favored class just like a half-elf.
Anytime you hear me say, "Didn't you hear?", expect something a little less than serious to follow. I know I can house that, if fact, I probably will just give humans the extra favored class next time I DM.
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus |
After looking over the PF rules, especially with the traits, I found that the additional traits feat is what we are looking for. You get to chose 2 traits that are not of the same category. A lot of traits not only give you 1 class skill, but also a +1 bonus to that skill.
So if you don't have the traits listed or available a simple way would be to say you get two skills of choice to be class skills, and you get a +1 trait bonus to that skill.