Able Learner feat


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Well, with cross-class skills costing 1 skill point now, this feat seems useless. Any idea how to tweak it? It allows Humans to purchase cross-class skills at 1 point per rank. Now I need to think of a substitute benefit.

I never understood the reasoning for that change. With the skills condensed, it seems a Rogue or Ranger with high Intelligence is now going to be TOO skillful. I liked it better before where you really had to specialize precisely.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

This might be one of those few cases where a 3.5 feat or rules bit is simply not something that needs to be retained with the Pathfinder RPG. Alternatively you could maybe treat it as a "pick your own" +2/+2 skill feat.

As for why we changed it, the primary reason was to make skill selection less complex. The notion of half-ranks and being able to have your level +3 ranks at 1st level made for the #1 place for stat blocks to have errors, particularly in the case of multiclass characters, prestige class characters, characters with Intelligence bonuses, and characters who have racial hit dice and class levels.

Having spent over 5 years building and checking stat blocks for 3.5, I can say that the way skills work in PFRPG is a HUGE time saver.


Razz wrote:

Well, with cross-class skills costing 1 skill point now, this feat seems useless. Any idea how to tweak it? It allows Humans to purchase cross-class skills at 1 point per rank. Now I need to think of a substitute benefit.

I never understood the reasoning for that change. With the skills condensed, it seems a Rogue or Ranger with high Intelligence is now going to be TOO skillful. I liked it better before where you really had to specialize precisely.

Perhaps allow the PC a choice of an extra class skill when they take the feat, and a second one when they get 10 ranks in a skill. This would compliment yet not overwrite the rules for skill focus.


Rathendar wrote:
Razz wrote:

Well, with cross-class skills costing 1 skill point now, this feat seems useless. Any idea how to tweak it? It allows Humans to purchase cross-class skills at 1 point per rank. Now I need to think of a substitute benefit.

I never understood the reasoning for that change. With the skills condensed, it seems a Rogue or Ranger with high Intelligence is now going to be TOO skillful. I liked it better before where you really had to specialize precisely.

Perhaps allow the PC a choice of an extra class skill when they take the feat, and a second one when they get 10 ranks in a skill. This would compliment yet not overwrite the rules for skill focus.

This is a good ideal. Alternatively have it grant an extra skill point each level.

Contributor

Honestly, speaking as someone who's done a lot of game design (mostly for various editions of MAGE) the Able Learner feat was one of those "I don't want to deal with this stupid mechanic" feats.

Mage Revised had the Stormwarden Merit, which was a Merit that let characters not have to deal with the (generally disliked) raised Gauntlet mechanics.

A game I'm currently playing in is 3.5, but the gamemaster explained that one of his house rules is that all of characters, regardless of race, receive the Able Learner feat for free.

If you want to, you can view Pathfinder, by abolishing extra costs for cross-class skills, as having given every character the Able Learner feat for free. In that case, the easiest conversion for characters who had it before is to just offer them another feat for free in exchange, since it's not so much them losing it as everyone else getting it.

Alternately, you could make Able Learner a human feat that gives a character +3 on all skills, regardless of whether they're in his chosen class or not. Though that might be a bit overpowered. Probably best to just drop it.


Quote:
Alternately, you could make Able Learner a human feat that gives a character +3 on all skills, regardless of whether they're in his chosen class or not.

I'm not so sure. The original Able Learner didn't have any effect on your class skills.

I would think something as simple as "every skill is a class skill for you" would be sufficient.

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Jabor wrote:
Quote:
Alternately, you could make Able Learner a human feat that gives a character +3 on all skills, regardless of whether they're in his chosen class or not.

I'm not so sure. The original Able Learner didn't have any effect on your class skills.

I would think something as simple as "every skill is a class skill for you" would be sufficient.

Thats more Jack of all Trades bag...

EDIT: Realizing that I haven't explained enough, let me elaborate. Do that and a bard class feature is essentially a feat away.


Quote:
Thats more Jack of all Trades bag...

Your point being?

How was the original Able Learner feat different?


I understood the reason behind the condensed skills. I'm just saying I think the skills are condensed "TOO MUCH". As in, was there a reason to plug three skills into one quite a few times? Fly was added in, but I think maybe the condensing was too much. Search as part of Perception seemed a like funky to me, though it did trample on Spot when it came to "noticing things". I have yet to test it, but I'm worried about a Rogue with 18 or 20 Int being good at EVERYTHING now.

Well, I guess what I can see with this is I can "push" my players to pour more ranks into Craft and Profession skills. Something I'm sure they wanted to do before, but couldn't really.

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Jabor wrote:
Quote:
Thats more Jack of all Trades bag...

Your point being?

How was the original Able Learner feat different?

So you want to take the bard's tenuous position in parties, and make it even more rare to see a bard?

I don't get your hostility to the point.


I'm not sure how it actually compares to the Bard ability.

The most important part of Jack of All Trades is the ability to make checks untrained - the "all skills are class skills" is what, a +3 to any non-class-skills you spend ranks on? Hardly overpowering.

If you're going to change what the feat does to something totally different, then you might as well not call it "Able Learner". If you look at what the feat did back in 3.5, it was "all skills are class skills for the purpose of how many points it takes for each skill rank."

As such, I feel the Pathfinder version should involve treating skills as class skills, for the +3 bonus. Maybe not all skills - if you go with traits counting as half-feats, compare to the "+1 to 1 skill and it counts as a class skill" traits. Based on that, you might say "pick (3|4) skills, they always count as class skills" is fair.

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Jabor wrote:

I'm not sure how it actually compares to the Bard ability.

The most important part of Jack of All Trades is the ability to make checks untrained - the "all skills are class skills" is what, a +3 to any non-class-skills you spend ranks on? Hardly overpowering.

If you're going to change what the feat does to something totally different, then you might as well not call it "Able Learner". If you look at what the feat did back in 3.5, it was "all skills are class skills for the purpose of how many points it takes for each skill rank."

As such, I feel the Pathfinder version should involve treating skills as class skills, for the +3 bonus. Maybe not all skills - if you go with traits counting as half-feats, compare to the "+1 to 1 skill and it counts as a class skill" traits. Based on that, you might say "pick (3|4) skills, they always count as class skills" is fair.

That's fine, but making all skills class skills is a large part of the allure of Jack of All trades. By making a feat you could take at first level it kinda defeats the purpose of staying a bard.


How about the feat raising the level cap for two class skills from +3 to +5? That would encourage more specialization.

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varianor wrote:
How about the feat raising the level cap for two class skills from +3 to +5? That would encourage more specialization.

Umm there is no "cap" on skill points per say. Right now its max skill ranks equal to your class level.


Whoops, right. (Thank you for the reminder.) Then raise the cap if you take the feat to some number above class level.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Able Learner in pathfinder would turn two non-class skills into class skills (meaning that if you have ranks in them you get a +3 bonus). Seems like a pretty linear translation to me.

If someone with Able Learner later multiclassed into a class which gained those skills anyway I would allow them to pick new skills, or just swap the feat.

As for the bard, the 16th level feature from Jack of All Trades isn't all it's cracked up to be. The only skills a bard doesn't already get are disable device, fly, handle animal, heal, ride, survival, and swim. If he's been playing rogue for the last 15 levels (taking ranks in disable device), he gets a +3 bonus, but that's as powerful as it really gets.


Hydro wrote:

Able Learner in pathfinder would turn two non-class skills into class skills (meaning that if you have ranks in them you get a +3 bonus). Seems like a pretty linear translation to me.

If someone with Able Learner later multiclassed into a class which gained those skills anyway I would allow them to pick new skills, or just swap the feat.

As for the bard, the 16th level feature from Jack of All Trades isn't all it's cracked up to be. The only skills a bard doesn't already get are disable device, fly, handle animal, heal, ride, survival, and swim. If he's been playing rogue for the last 15 levels (taking ranks in disable device), he gets a +3 bonus, but that's as powerful as it really gets.

Agreed. That is a much better conversion IMHO.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I think the easiest solution is, if an old character has Able Learner, just replace it with Open Minded (which can be taken multiple times so it doesn't matter if they already have it).

Edit: And perhaps change Open Minded to give you skill points equal to your character level, per the Toughness redesign. But then maybe it shouldn't be stackable. Hmm.


I think two is a little low.

We already have a feat ("Additional Traits") that can turn two non-class-skills into class skills, and give an additional +1 bonus to them.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I think that the balance for traits is all-freaking-over-the-place, and wouldn't use them as written.

I doubt that granting three class skills would be overpowered, though. Odds are that you only really want one or two of them anyway, and the third is just gravy.


It's a Human only, 1st level only feat, and it's primary uses are to qualify for Chameleon or to drop on a Human Paragon or Factotum. Or, for that matter, a Human Paragon/Factotum building to Chameleon.

Why not cut to the chase? "All skills are class skills for you."

Far as I'm concerned, the more incentives for people to play Human, the better.

Bards are all well and good, but does anyone play a Bard for Jack of All Trades? If anything, they're better prepared to take advantage of Able Learner than anyone-- between their high skill points and Bardic Knowledge, they have an even better ability to spread their skill points around than the Rogue.

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Korimyr the Rat wrote:

It's a Human only, 1st level only feat, and it's primary uses are to qualify for Chameleon or to drop on a Human Paragon or Factotum. Or, for that matter, a Human Paragon/Factotum building to Chameleon.

Why not cut to the chase? "All skills are class skills for you."

Far as I'm concerned, the more incentives for people to play Human, the better.

And the free feat wasn't a big enough one?

I have a player that played a halfling for all of three sessions before he decided he was going to play a human paladin. We tried getting him outside his little box, and he decided he was going to just play humans.

Humans have enough of a reason to be played.


Humans are supposed to be the most numerous race and the race most likely to produce adventurers. Be nice if more adventuring parties reflected that.

And I'm still bitter about all the Elves in 2e.

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Korimyr the Rat wrote:

Humans are supposed to be the most numerous race and the race most likely to produce adventurers. Be nice if more adventuring parties reflected that.

And I'm still bitter about all the Elves in 2e.

I'm sorry, I had limited experience with 2e, but humans have too much good stuff. Even in 3.0 they were the most often used race, because you couldn't beat a free feat at first level.

Atop that, they get free skill points, then can choose a preferred class to get ANOTHER one, without ever needing a point of int above 10.

Humans have way too many reasons to be played as it is, I find it hard for me to play a human, only because I see too many of them at my tables. I'd rather play the unique and exotic races. Then again, you're talking to a guy who plays the evil races. (Drow, Shadar-Kai in 4th)

Right now my go to class is Half-elf, even if I'm not going to multiclass.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I've never had a problem with players taking humans in 3.5, and they've been boosted SIGNIFICANTLY in 3.P. Elves got +2 int in transition. Dwarves got +2 wis. Humans got +2 to whatever they want.

If your players don't like humans it isn't because humans are weak, it's because they don't like humans. You're probably just going to have to learn to live with that.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I've never had a human problem either.

That said, with Pathfinder, I can take a half-elf and not feel 'odd man out'

I think Able Learner just won't translate. All it did is allow skills to be bought point for point. Cross-class skills still could only be half maximum. Pathfinder's made this a legacy mechanic.


Dissinger wrote:
Korimyr the Rat wrote:
Far as I'm concerned, the more incentives for people to play Human, the better.

And the free feat wasn't a big enough one?

...
Humans have enough of a reason to be played.

Oh no, let's not start this again!

By the way, humans have pretty much been balanced with all of the other races and are horribly underbalanced if your free bonus feat is used for Spell Penetration or Skill Focus (Any). Half-elf is my new favorite.

Lantern Lodge

i offer a vote for the all skills are class skills option. (it's only +3's if you put ranks).

i'd make it require the human subtype (humans, halfelves, and halforcs or anything of human descent, as long as the entity is at least 20% human *glances at the tiefling/aasimaar couple across the street*)


I was considering just making it an extra skill point a level, but that would also be a good rewrite for Open Minded, so I may just go with the "all skills are class skills" option - it really helps reinforce the flexibility and adaptability of the race.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Disciple of Sakura wrote:
I was considering just making it an extra skill point a level, but that would also be a good rewrite for Open Minded, so I may just go with the "all skills are class skills" option - it really helps reinforce the flexibility and adaptability of the race.

I'm also leaning toward Open Minded = 1 skill point per level (can't be stacked), and Able Learner = all skills are class skills.

Yeah, you lose 1/3 of one Bard ability... really, that's no more an issue than an elf's free longsword proficiency giving zero benefit to a fighter.

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tejón wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:
I was considering just making it an extra skill point a level, but that would also be a good rewrite for Open Minded, so I may just go with the "all skills are class skills" option - it really helps reinforce the flexibility and adaptability of the race.

I'm also leaning toward Open Minded = 1 skill point per level (can't be stacked), and Able Learner = all skills are class skills.

Yeah, you lose 1/3 of one Bard ability... really, that's no more an issue than an elf's free longsword proficiency giving zero benefit to a fighter.

Except one is a racial ability, and one is a class ability.

Those are leagues different.

EDIT:

How about this, any skill you have ten or more ranks in gets a +3 untyped bonus.

This way it stacks with things like skill focus, and gives the illusion of making all cross class skills class skills at a certain point, with the option of actually MAKING them class skills later.


Dissinger wrote:
tejón wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:
I was considering just making it an extra skill point a level, but that would also be a good rewrite for Open Minded, so I may just go with the "all skills are class skills" option - it really helps reinforce the flexibility and adaptability of the race.

I'm also leaning toward Open Minded = 1 skill point per level (can't be stacked), and Able Learner = all skills are class skills.

Yeah, you lose 1/3 of one Bard ability... really, that's no more an issue than an elf's free longsword proficiency giving zero benefit to a fighter.

Except one is a racial ability, and one is a class ability.

Those are leagues different.

I'm not seeing it.

An optional racial ability (that costs a feat, no less) being made redundant by a particular class ability that you pick up later, vs..

a racial ability that you get for free (without spending a feat) being made redundant by a class ability you get now.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Dissinger wrote:
How about this, any skill you have ten or more ranks in gets a +3 untyped bonus.

I do like that direction, but the "nothing now" aspect kind of blows for a feat you have to take at 1st level.

How about +1 to all checks with trained skills, increasing to +3 for skills with 10 ranks?

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tejón wrote:
Dissinger wrote:
How about this, any skill you have ten or more ranks in gets a +3 untyped bonus.

I do like that direction, but the "nothing now" aspect kind of blows for a feat you have to take at 1st level.

How about +1 to all checks with trained skills, increasing to +3 for skills with 10 ranks?

That I could get behind. It gives it a faux class skill feel, which only gets better when it actually BECOMES a class skill.


I like Open Minded as +1 SkP per level and always felt that it should've been that anyway.

I don't really know about Able Learner. I figured that I would just chuck the feat since everyone pretty much gets it for free now. We actually house ruled that everyone effectively got this feat for free anyway.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Or, if you take a version of Able Learner which grants all skills as class skills, you could always just not take 16 bard levels. Problem solved.

I don't think the bard has anything to do with that, I think it's too powerful because it's just too powerful. Just the +3 for perception and athletics alone is worth it for any character who doesn't have those skills already, without even looking at all the other skills you might drop a rank or two in.


Didn't think this thread would get that big LOL

Forgive my error in judgment on the skill points, I assumed the characters began with x4 points at 1st-level, but I realized they don't anymore. That makes things better.

Scarab Sages

would do something like:

"choose a number of cross-class skills equal to your intelligence modifer, those skills are now considered class skills."


I'll admit, Able Learner isn't vital to retain, except insofar as the Chameleon PrC prereqs. You could just replace it with something else, but it needs to be something a human can take that others can't, so Open Minded wouldn't be a good solution.

Don't know what sort of "human only" feats would be good beyond something like the ol' Able Learner, though. It was a good idea for a feat back in 3.5.


Disciple of Sakura wrote:

I'll admit, Able Learner isn't vital to retain, except insofar as the Chameleon PrC prereqs. You could just replace it with something else, but it needs to be something a human can take that others can't, so Open Minded wouldn't be a good solution.

Don't know what sort of "human only" feats would be good beyond something like the ol' Able Learner, though. It was a good idea for a feat back in 3.5.

Didn't you hear? Humans aren't versatile anymore...just half elves.


Razz...kinda had the same issue come up with my first batch of players. Someone forgot to mention the no more multiplying your first level skill points when he was discussing character creation, so we had a five minute long discussion on getting every skill on the list.

I think a rogue with an 18 int is going to still be good at damn near everything, even without the x4...though on the other hand, having an 18 stat is a lot of your points. In my game I opted for 20 point buy, and an 18 leaves you with three left for your remaining stats. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think anyone in my group ended up with an 18 before racial mods.

The new skill system benefits rogues, in that it takes that "gotta have a human with a high int" feel out. A nonhuman with an average to above average int is going to have plenty of skill points. Lets you focus more on your dex/cha/str/whatever.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Frogboy wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:

I'll admit, Able Learner isn't vital to retain, except insofar as the Chameleon PrC prereqs. You could just replace it with something else, but it needs to be something a human can take that others can't, so Open Minded wouldn't be a good solution.

Don't know what sort of "human only" feats would be good beyond something like the ol' Able Learner, though. It was a good idea for a feat back in 3.5.

Didn't you hear? Humans aren't versatile anymore...just half elves.

Well, you could always rewrite Able Learner to give a human an additional favored class just like a half-elf.


Epic Meepo wrote:
Frogboy wrote:
Didn't you hear? Humans aren't versatile anymore...just half elves.
Well, you could always rewrite Able Learner to give a human an additional favored class just like a half-elf.

Anytime you hear me say, "Didn't you hear?", expect something a little less than serious to follow. I know I can house that, if fact, I probably will just give humans the extra favored class next time I DM.


After looking over the PF rules, especially with the traits, I found that the additional traits feat is what we are looking for. You get to chose 2 traits that are not of the same category. A lot of traits not only give you 1 class skill, but also a +1 bonus to that skill.

So if you don't have the traits listed or available a simple way would be to say you get two skills of choice to be class skills, and you get a +1 trait bonus to that skill.


maybe Able Learner would add the INT bonus on skills. As it has to do something with the intelligence to learn. so i think that makes sense?
low int = less points with able learner.
you could add a INT bunus (+ 1 point per time the feat is taken)


Able Learner

Prerequisite; Open Minded

Benefit; you receive 1 additional class skill per point of intelligence bonus. as your intelligence bonuses changes, you gain more class skills as appropriate.


Why not just trade it for fast learner?


Abraham spalding wrote:
Abraham spalding

Seconded (although this only works if the character is human).

For a half-elf you can sub in Multitalented Mastery.

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