Even PrCs that bump two classes worth of abilities, such as the Mystic Theurge, could be utterly replaced with some Feats like Practiced Spellcaster. Take it once, bump Cleric casting by 4. Take it again, bump Wizard casting by 4. Then qualify for a new Feat 'Mystic Theurge' that requires you to have taken Practiced Spellcaster twice, for different classes, and acts as Mystic Theurge but advances *both* of the previous classes by 4. You could have an 8th Cleric / 8th Wizard who casts as a 16th Cleric *and* Wizard, with those three feats. He'll only have the Domain abilities, Chanel energy, Familiar advancement and School/Universal powers of an 8th level Cleric and Wizard, but hey, such is life. At the end of your non-epic life, you'll be a 10th Cleric / 10th Wizard with CL 18 in both classes. Nothing to cry about, there.
My DM runs a feat similar to this
Mystic Theurge
You have combined the paths of arcane and divine magic, blah blah.
Prereq Able to cast 1st level arcane spells, able to cast 1st level divine spells.
Benefit: Choose an arcane casting class. Choose a divine casting class. For the purposes of caster level in each class, these two classes stack. For the purposes of spell acquisition, every two levels in your divine casting class increases your arcane spellcasting access by one level and vice versa.
Special: If you need to worry about stupid munchkins taking a single level dip and gaining a large benefit, apply a penalty to caster level for every level of difference beyond 1.
Under these rules, a cleric 10/wizard 10 would have the special abilities of a 10th level wizard and a 10th level cleric, spellcasting as a 15th level wizard and 15th level cleric, and a caster level of 20.
With the penalty rule in effect, a cleric 8/wizard 10 would take a -2 penalty to caster level, for a total caster level of 16th, with access to spells as a 13th level cleric and 14th level wizard. And a cleric 19/wizard 1 would have a caster level of 2, with access to 19th level cleric spellcasting and 10th level wizard casting.
However, the penalty only need to be applied if someone is trying to dick the rules somehow. The feat is intended for those who truly want to blend their classes and can't because of 3e's poor spellcaster multiclass synergy. Not for those who want to dip and cheat the system for more power than a character of their level ought to have.
I am being a total PrC nazi in my campaign this go-around. My rules are:
Does the PrC do a better job than a current Core Class at one of its main foci? If yes, then you cannot take it. (Examples: Archmage, 3.0 Weapon Master.)
Can the Concept for the PrC be played by using one of or a multiclass of the current Core Classes or with Feat/Ability choices? If yes, then you cannot take it. (Examples: Swashbuckler, any Master Specialist.)
Do you want to take the class because it has this one ability you like? You can't take it, but we'll discuss the possibility of feats, spells, or an alternate class ability.
Most of all, does it not fit in the theme of the campaign or the structure of the campaign world? No? Then sorry Charlie.
That is rather lame. I mean, so locking the character out of the cool Archmage abilities makes the game fun for them, or you? Locking a character out of becoming the supreme master of one particular weapon is bad? You know the current rules doesn't allow either of those. Not to the extent of what they can do. You only make it harder for yourself trying to come up with alternate class features, homebrew feats, items, spells, etc. when just letting them pop into the PrC is much easier and makes more sense. Not trying to poo on your game, I just can't understand this fear of prestige classes.
I am the complete opposite. I allow all prestige classes. They appreciate it, I've seen some cool anime-combos they come up with, and they love writing or playing the story background for it. I don't understand the fear of PrC, my games have been just fine, if not better, with them. The more, the better! A few were sucky, yes, but that's just poor design, not because of the existence of the prestige class mechanic itself.
*shrug* The DM should be in charge of deciding which PrCs (or base classes for that matter) fit his campaign world and which don't. Like Loopy, I'm a PrC nazi -- mainly for the "does it fit the game world" reason. Players can bring one up with me (and have) and it might be approved, or not based on both the class and their backstory / idea for entering it. Sometimes players are presented with the opportunity to gain a prestige class, i.e. an organization related one like a secret society within a temple and they may chose to take it, or not (although turning down the wrong secret society can be dangerous). But it all fits within the game world. While I've had any number of people multi-class, I've never had one do more than one prestige class. Campaigns differ, and if the style of one doesn't suit you, find another.
Let's move on to the duelist, another very iconic character concept, the kind which many characters will wind up close to even if they don't know about the PrC's existence. Weapon Finesse? Central to the very concept. Dudge? Great feat all around (especially the PFRPG upgrade), anyone who spends time in melee can benefit from it. Mobility... well, hum. That's kind of what tumble checks are for. I mostly see mobility taken by those wearing medium or heavy armor, who have high check penalties and can't afford the double movement cost... and aren't interested in this class. And look, there's also a requirement for Acrobatics ranks! Well at least this sort of character would have those anyway, but they make the Mobility requirement even less likely to be met randomly. But sure, sometimes it'll happen. Oh, wait, there's one more thing... two ranks of Perform? Well, it's official....
Ok, I'm not sure if you are familiar with the changes to tumble but it's far from automatic anymore and in some cases quite challenging. Also, even with tumble sometimes you want/ need to move through multiple threatened areas at full speed and it gets exceptionally difficult to tumble. AND... the two work well together, a failed tumble check still gets the mobility bonus. Mobility is a solid feat for anyone who is going to be moving around getting AoOs.
As for 2 ranks of perform? Yeah it's a little out there but it's 2 lousy ranks, not a horrible thing. As a GM, I'd hand wave it away but even with that requirement it's not a big deal.
Sadly, the arcane trickster is closer to this category than the previous: many otherwise-qualified characters have no interest in disabling devices or the art of escape.
Err wot?
Arcane Trickster is all about being a rogue/ sorcerer. I'm not sure who else would be interested in the class, someone interested in being a spell sniper? One of the core abilities of the Trickster is the ability to perform rogue skills at a distance and here you are suggesting those very talents are pointless. I'm kind of with you on escape artist but it is a core rogue skill. My current character is going for Trickster and I don't have any trouble with taking 4 ranks in Escape Artist to get there. My bigger complaint it the fact that Arcane PrCs almost all say Xth level arcane spells which puts the sorcerer 1 level behind for qualifying for all arcane prestige classes. Considering the trickster specifically says it's more common for sorcerers this is kind of irritating.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It wasn't designed to suck, certainly, but it was not intended to be a super-b@*@-kicking PrC. It is essentially a skill monkey class whose powers were designed around survival, versatility, and being able to pull off some interesting or unusual tricks.
As I said, it did a little more power-wise in the draft turnover, and if you compare the Campaign Setting version to the PFRPG version you'll see that they added back some things to improve the power level.
But the class doesn't really do any of that, which is the problem.
This class is clearly meant to be bard friendly, which means that bards are going to want some of the abilities that the class offers. I'm going to be gauging this class based on a comparison between a pure bard and a bard who takes this class.
Ironically, I'd see it as the opposite; if you're already a bard, some of the class abilities are superfluous - it would be like multiclassing from bard into bard, but without the spells. It would make much more sense to MC into Pathfinder Chronicler from some other class where getting these abilities would add more to what you can do, rather than replicating what you already can do.
First of all, there's the goofy "Special" requirement, which means that taking the prestige class is entirely up to DM fiat. And while technically all material is up to DM fiat, the DM has to accommodate the chronicler far more than, say, the spellsword. That's one strike.
It's true! Honestly, it was a bit of fun for a class requirement, and really no more onerous than PrCs with requirement like "must make peaceful contact with a [insert type of creature]" or "must be recommended for membership by another member of the PrC."
d8 HD, 8 skill points per level, 3/4 BAB, two good saves: it has a fine class skeleton.
Standard boilerplate.
No spellcasting: Strike two. While the bard's spellcasting isn't exactly powerful, there are a slew of useful spells available to him, especially in the Spell Compendium. (And since PRPG is backwards compatible, all those spells should be usable.) The pure bard is going to win this one.
Of course spellcasting beats not spellcasting, but it's only a strike if your default comparison is a spellcasting class. Your strike is based on an assumption that only bards would be interested in this class.
Bardic Knowledge: Not great, but it doesn't detract from the class.
True, though it's useless for a bard because it just gives them what they'd already get.
Deep Pockets: Okay, I really do like this ability. I wish it were more like 100 gp per character level, but that's not a huge deal, I suppose. It's a shame that the amount of gold doesn't automatically replenish over time, though.
Glad you liked it.
Master Scribe: This ability doesn't really do anything that particularly helps the character.
I dunno, getting up to +10 to UMD with scrolls could be nice.
Bardic Music: You get bardic music, except it's worse than a pure bard. Strike three.
Again, a strike if you're already a bard, sure.
Improved Aid: I have never seen the Aid Another action used in combat before, so I count this ability as pretty not useless.
Never seen it? YMMV, obviously. I wouldn't say it gets used all the time IME, but it certainly sees the light of day regularly. A standard action to grant a +4 bonus to hit or to AC to an adjacent ally, usable all day long, esp. if that character has the weapon that's most effective against the bad guy, or is getting pummeled by the bad guy and for whatever reason can't retreat.
Actually, in my first version the bonus was equal to their class level (standard action for +3 to +10 to AC or an attack roll), but it seemed like too much. On second thought, though, I wonder if my initial instinct may have been correct and I shoulda kept it that way.
Sure it sounds like a lot, but is it any better than a spell? Besides why shouldn't it be a lot? This is one of their core class abilities, helping out other heroes so they can have grand victories to chronicle!
Another notion, BTW, might be to expand the Improved Aid to allow a PF Chronicler to "aid another" other kinds of die rolls, like someone's saving throw, spell penetration check, concentration, etc. Perhaps they could "aid another" as an immediate action say 1/day per 3 class levels and could aid ANY d20 roll.
I like it. If you like tinkering with classes or you think this class is insufficient, I think this would a pretty reasonable place to put a little tweak.
Epic Tales: This would be a lot more useful if it inspired the reader and everyone else. It's a full round action to activate. Right now, the bard is still ahead of this class. Strike four.
It's something to pass out to your friends or allies when you're not around - a scroll of bardic music (or a highly suggestive letter-writing campaign). Again, just something different.
Also, it became a bit weaker in the translation from 3.5 (for the Campaign Setting) to the PFRPG, because in 3.5 your skill check often set the DC for things like fascinate and suggestion. Since the Master Scribe gave a bonus=level to Prof (Scribe) and that was the skill you used to write Epic Tales, it was a built in boost to the save DC vs. your written bardic music.
Since the skill check was decoupled from save DCs for bardic music in PFRPG, that built-in boost went away. You could recreate it, I suppose, by applying the Master Scribe bonus to save DCs for any bardic music effects you write with Epic Tales.
Whispering Campaign: A bard who can cast spells is still better. Strike five.
More to the point, in the final PFRPG all bards can do "dirge of doom" at 8th level, so part of their ability (which at the time the class was written for the Campaign Setting was distinct from normal bard powers) again was made superfluous with the bard.
Inspire Action: Okay, this is a good one. Pretty darn powerful, too. Letting a caster get off another spell in a round is really, really good. You lose one strike.
Glad you enjoyed.
Call Down the Legends: Once per week, and weak on top of that. Pass.
Supposed to have been once a day, but the item was once a week so it became once a week.
Greater Epic Tales: Finally, the Epic Tales ability gets better. I'll erase one more strike.
Yay, I like not getting struck, or getting un-struck as the case may be.
Lay of the Exalted Dead: Once per week, ghost barbarians appear. No, thank you. But I'm giving this class one more strike because it had the potential to be cool and it's not very good.
Aww, yer mean. I can think of lots of handy uses for incorporeal minions, but this ability also lost a bit in editing - the heroes were supposed to radiate happy vibes of heroism to allies and scary vibes of despair to enemies (morale bonuses/penalties) in addition to being combat mooks.
So, this class has like four strikes or something (honestly, I'm not counting), and a pure bard comes out ahead of the chronicler. The class just isn't very good all around. The class has two useful abilities, and you have to go through nine levels of the class to get them.
No, thank you. Bard 20 is far better and less likely to die.
You know, the irony in this statement is that you actually left out what I thought was probably the PF Chron's most combat-relevant ability in helping them not die, the ability to Live to Tell the Tale!
Also, the Pathfinding ability, while again not combat awesome, is a quite handy ability for someone to have in your party if your campaigns include any consequential amount of overland travel.
Actually, if you're looking for a logical thing from the PFRPG final that would make sense to add to the PF Chronicler if you think it's too wimpy, you might look at the ranger's favored terrain ability.
Quote:
I would probably go with maxing out UMD and making scrolls, wands, or a staff your primary source for offense.
The problem is that even a fighter can do that.
Sure, but the PF Chron will be better at it, and double-better at using scrolls instead, and have quadruple the skill points to be able to afford to do it than the fighter and his piddling 2+Int, non-class-skill-havin self.
Is a bard20 better than a bard10/PF Chron 10? Sure. 20th level caster > 10th level caster, and most of the "face" skills and abilities the PF Chron gets the bard can do similar or better.
The answer? Don't be a bard/PF Chron. Pair it up with something like ranger, monk, or rogue where the abilities you are getting accent and enhance what you wanna do. Heck, there's nothing precluding you from adding it to barbarian or fighter or paladin; just because the illustration is a light-armored lady doesn't mean you can't be an armored tank who also just happens to be a skilled, sophisticated man about town...
Even PrCs that bump two classes worth of abilities, such as the Mystic Theurge, could be utterly replaced with some Feats like Practiced Spellcaster.
My DM runs a feat similar to this
Mystic Theurge
You have combined the paths of arcane and divine magic, blah blah.
Both of those ideas are fantastic. Something like this would make a much better "patch" for multiclassing-- especially multicasters-- than an endless procession of Prestige Classes.
Never seen it? YMMV, obviously. I wouldn't say it gets used all the time IME, but it certainly sees the light of day regularly. A standard action to grant a +4 bonus to hit or to AC to an adjacent ally, usable all day long, esp. if that character has the weapon that's most effective against the bad guy, or is getting pummeled by the bad guy and for whatever reason can't retreat.
Actually, in my first version the bonus was equal to their class level (standard action for +3 to +10 to AC or an attack roll), but it seemed like too much. On second thought, though, I wonder if my initial instinct may have been correct and I shoulda kept it that way.
I totally agree, I love Aid another combat actions, especially on top of what a Bard normally does. Mainly because of the way Aid another is worded for combat use I'd point out that the main requrmen is that you need to be able to make a Melee attack against the thing your friend is fighting. Normally this means being adjacent because of reach in a normal character, however there are exceptions. Most Polearms would allow you to stand behind your friend and Aid him. For a Bard they are proficient with the ultimate Aid Another trump card, the Whip. 15 foot Melee attack for very easy Aid Another which will take you out of the basic reach of even some of the larger monsters.
I'm actually glad you didn't go with your first instinct and make it based on class level. There were some very interesting builds in 3.5 based around boosting Aid Another, and then of course backing someone using Power Attack which is less of an issue in Pathfinder.
In general comments,
I actually don't really see the harm in multiclassing into the Pathfinder Chronicler from Bard. The difference here is that you're looking to focus on Music/Performance and Knowledge(a.k.a. pre-encounter prep) over your spells. It's a form of specialization.
In a full Bard 10/ Pathfinder Chronicler 10 you miss the capstone of Deadly Performance but gain some of those the extra song abilities that the PfC has to offer. Inspire Action being a big one. I guess the question is how far does the Bardic Music of Pathfinder Chronicler stack with Bardic Performance. Given normally accepted ability stacking it should give you access to everything including swift action starts and Mass Suggestion.
.... Actually we have some disconnects in the Pathfinder Chronicler when it comes to the Bard references. First Bardic Music should be changed to Bardic Performance. Second Epic Tales refers to Daily Uses of Bardic Music, which needs to be translated into the newer Rounds of performance. The basic assumption is that comes off as poorly worded 2 rounds used, however my guess is that it should be more like 8. If it stays as 2 rounds then it becomes a very good ability. Third Inspire Action is also really good at the cost 1 round to give a Move or Standard action.
Speaking of Epic Tales and Multi-classes bards this is a very good ability and returns one of the things many Buffer Bard players are grumpy about loosing, the lingering combat effect. While you can't go to crazy with effect stacking there are some abilities that stand out. Soothing Performance is one. The ability to create fairly cheap Mass Cure Serious Wounds scrolls usable by anyone in the party is no small thing. If one goes right into PfC from Bard at the soonest they can start getting the full party effect by 14th level. This almost makes a Bard/PfC as effective a healer as the Cleric at the level, better with good down time because the Bard can do pre-caching of Performance Uses.
The one thing I am sad about in the PfC is that the Barbarians you summon are not boosted by most of your own Bardic Music, being Constructs.
*Edit*
Question, does Inspire Action fall under the heading of bardic music? If so does that mean a PfC can create Greater Epic Tales of Inspire Action?
Jason: It's too bad that Jason decided to nerf the chronicler that much.
Enchanter Tom, I don't think you're fully tracking how sideways the PfC can go right now. Assuming that Inspire Action is a Bardic Performance effect in full and it won't be errataed to limit this... it could be made into a Greater Epic Tales. While this has very little impact on lower level play it could have some interesting impacts on higher level games.
Take for example a pack of Followers who have been given Greater Epic Tales of Inspire Action. Bard based or you can now generate 'boss' killing moves in a single round. What would happen if you gave a 14th level Wizard 19 extra Standard Actions on the first turn of a major fight? How about a Rogue in flanking position? Granted it's very much a one shot trick of an adventure but even on a more limited scale there exists the option of transferring actions to another character who has a better chance of accomplish a given task.
As it currently stands, for Music focused Bard it is not a bad PrC at all. I think it does a very good job and opens up options a normal bard does not have at all.
I guess it will really depend on how the errata goes.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I suppose I'd make there be a limit to avoid that kind of cheese - as in, you can only receive Inspire Action 1/rd (or 1 move and 1 standard).
Even so, the "handing out Epic Tales" to followers, cohorts, raven familiars, etc. could still work.
As for how many times you can do it, again this is a place where the edit between 3.5 and PF didn't come cleanly, as the PChron still talks about "daily uses" of bardic music rather than rounds of use.
I suppose the way to do it would be to make you stipulate the duration of the Epic Tales (rather than it being a flat 1 minute), and creating it requires the expenditure of that many rounds of BM power for the day.
I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed that they didn't correct the mechanics on the PfChron to be compatible with design decisions made in the final rules set. It's a very big oversight that's problematic on many levels, and it's not indicative of an eye for quality, which is odd of Paizo in general. I understand that it might not have been a top priority of mechanical editing - there is a lot to that book after all - but it's still not the best sign for new customers/players to have something that inconsistent.
I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed that they didn't correct the mechanics on the PfChron to be compatible with design decisions made in the final rules set. It's a very big oversight that's problematic on many levels, and it's not indicative of an eye for quality, which is odd of Paizo in general. I understand that it might not have been a top priority of mechanical editing - there is a lot to that book after all - but it's still not the best sign for new customers/players to have something that inconsistent.
In a book this size it doesn't surprise me. The sheer size is daunting and the familiarity is a problem too. It's easy to overlook things you "know" are right. Especially if the changes are relatively limited.
One of the biggest problems with Prestige classes is the question of what you want from them.
After all if they are supposed to be selective and "prestigious" the question then turns to why they are selective and prestigious. If the answer is because they are elite say "The order of arcane steel, the elite Magus-Guard of Geb" (eldritch knight) then they must be better than the 'norm' otherwise they are not elite, they are simply "another" at which point why bother -- it's all the same in the end. In this case prestige classes should be harder to get into and be at least slightly more powerful to show why they are so much more than whatever the 'norm' is.
However if the prestige class is "alternate ways to come at the same problem" then we get into different issues. Can the prestige class be better represented as a feat chain? What should be the "normal" way to get into it. Is it going to be easier to get into (I would point out that getting into the prestige classes in Pathfinder is not difficult, and indeed it is fairly easy to qualify for 4 or even 5 of them without having to do odd things. In this case they need to present unique ways of doing things without raising the power level of the character involved.