You know, you bring up an interesting point, but in our area it has been quite the contrary. Our gaming store can't get enough of them in stores because they keep selling out.
I don't see how this is unique to Pathfinder. You can get nearly any RPG material cheaper online, from Amazon or other online retailers.
The main reason for a person to buy from the FLGS is immediate gratification . . . you see the book, you want the book, you get the book now, for a few dollars more.
I know that I frequent my FLGS because its a great place with great atmosphere, great staff, and great gamers. I run PFS events there, and another gamer in my group runs a Legacy of Fire game there.
When something related to PFS or Legacy of Fire comes up, people tend to buy them when they become interested.
Its unfortunate, but any FLGS is going to have to generate some loyalty if it wants to compete. This problem isn't unique to Paizo's products, but is true across the board.
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Many of the people I game with are impulse buyers. They won't buy a book online (or even download free PDFs designed to suppliment games, in one case), but they will surely buy whatever they see at the my local game shop.
Of the two local shops one doesn't stock anything, you have to order everything with them and they'll let you know when it arrives with the suitable mark up. I'd much rather order it online that way.
The other shop in my area is a double comic/gaming shop and carries some Pathfinder stuff, but a lot more Gamemastery stuff. They often shoot for novelty, and they don't seem to have trouble attracting people to buy full price items as long as they can buy something weird with it, like a huge d20 or a cutsie plush ebola-virus.
It's not happening to the game industry, it's happening to the printed word. Been inside a Borders lately? The one near my house has quite a few empty shelves gathering dust.
The sad thing is, I always liked out local Borders, but its doing poorly, while Barnes and Noble seems to be doing okay. Just isn't as comfy to me though.
Both of the book stores in the Mall have closed, which have pretty much killed my ability to kill time when my daughters want to go there.
I liked this one borders I would go to whenever I was in the area right before a game I went to. I've not been there since he moved. I'm currently within easy walking distance of both a Book-a-Million and a Barnes and Noble.
I have no FLGS within close driving distance any more... not since the closest moved across town.
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The answer the game store owner/employee/whatever gave sounds really fishy and an easy cop out answer to get you off his/her back.
Truth is, like others said, EVERY game book is cheaper online. It is a reality of gaming world.
In fact I heard a story on NPR this week that Google has pushed for a system to digitize ALL books to be available online. They mean old and new books. Some would be free and some would be available for a fee.
Ultimately the ONLY reason I find for a local game store is instant gratification. I can buy minis, paints, comics, movies, you name it, for cheaper online.
Well, okay, one other reason is that I occasionally find a new game or something there that I wouldn't have seen otherwise.
Honestly, if you are in central Illinois, check out home away from home:
Best gaming store I've ever had the pleasure to spend way too much time at.
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I don't know what turned you guys onto Pathfinder, but for me it was only because of my local game store. You may think that it is lacking in publicity, but if I found out about it in a small gaming store in the neither regions of South Dakota maybe, just maybe the guys at Paizo are doing somthing right. Plus if you think about it Pathfider is realitivly new.
Thanks to the Core Rulebook, I have now seen a Paizo product in a Borders store (DFW). Before, I only saw Paizo products at Barnes & Noble.
I can't know this for sure, so if I'm way off base, forgive me. Some FLGS owners are great guys that love the hobby in general. Others see themselves as being the arbiters of what should and shouldn't be in gaming.
I've seen FLGS owners that openly trash games that their patrons want to buy because they personally don't like it. I've also seen some of them that are so sure they understand the market that they ignore customers asking for products that would be sure sales.
Thankfully, the FLGS I go to is a great store, with an owner that is much more interested in the hobby gaming industry flourishing than trying to push his favorite games. But I have seen that this isn't always the case with game store owners.
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I can't know this for sure, so if I'm way off base, forgive me. Some FLGS owners are great guys that love the hobby in general. Others see themselves as being the arbiters of what should and shouldn't be in gaming.
I've seen FLGS owners that openly trash games that their patrons want to buy because they personally don't like it. I've also seen some of them that are so sure they understand the market that they ignore customers asking for products that would be sure sales.
Sounds an awful lot like our LGS... *sigh*
When Pathfinder was announced they trashed talked it real bad. They said it was the worst thing for the gaming industry and would eventually lead to a massive decline of gaming.
Ummmm yeah...
I was there one day and there was the guy looking at one of the very few Paizo products, one of the books from Rise of the Runelords. He asked what it was. The clerk shrugged his shoulders and ignored him, so I stepped in and started talking up the Adventure Path. He had never heard of Pathfinder and was shocked he could still use his old 3.5 books. He said he hated 4E but didn't know any other game was available.
In the end I got him to check out Paizo's site and as far as I know he bought the PFRPG.
At least now, for a while anyway, the LGS has a larger display area for Pathfinder than 4E, only because so many customers demanded the books. I seriously think they would never have displayed any books had customers not demanded it so much.
Thanks to the Core Rulebook, I have now seen a Paizo product in a Borders store (DFW). Before, I only saw Paizo products at Barnes & Noble.
WTF? I called a Borders store about this and they said it was an online-only product!
Sounds an awful lot like our LGS... *sigh*
When Pathfinder was announced they trashed talked it real bad. They said it was the worst thing for the gaming industry and would eventually lead to a massive decline of gaming.
Ummmm yeah...
This, in my experience, is why I very often stop going to many local game stores. If the people who run the store are more interested in being right than being in business, this will continue. Until they have no more business except those who agree with them.
Thanks to the Core Rulebook, I have now seen a Paizo product in a Borders store (DFW). Before, I only saw Paizo products at Barnes & Noble.WTF? I called a Borders store about this and they said it was an online-only product!
Sorry man, saw one copy of it on the shelf at the Lovers Lane store in Dallas, in all its pristine glory. What's a-matter with Bean town?
I just got concerned by the product not being on the shelves for casual gamers to see and take a peek at. The guy I talked to at the LGS said that he thinks Pathfinder is "awesome," but couldn't stock it due to competition from online sales, especially the PDF versions (forgot to say he talked about PDF's in my original post).
Then he should just close his store, because EVERYTHING he sells can be found cheaper online.
The trick is to add value that you can only get in a LGS. People to demonstrate the game. Networking with other gamers. Browsing the book. If you see your store JUST as a venue to move physical product, you're already losing.
It's like a restaurant owner complaining that the grocery store competes with him. Except the restaurant adds something that the grocery store can't: the experience of dining, the convenience of not cooking yourself, pleasant wait staff.
To me, it seemed like he wanted to stock it, but doing so was not profitable.
Then he needs to re-examine his business model. There are no Pokemon-level products that sell themselves automatically anymore. You have to work at it (that's why employees *work* at a store, they don't *freemoneyfornothing* at a store).
Game stores aren't simply stores that sell game books. They're places where people go to learn about games, play games, and meet with other gamers. In an economy where simple bookstores are failing, game stores have to crank up their unique aspects or suffer the same fate.
Then he should just close his store, because EVERYTHING he sells can be found cheaper online. The trick is to add value that you can only get in a LGS. People to demonstrate the game. Networking with other gamers. Browsing the book. If you see your store JUST as a venue to move physical product, you're already losing.
Word! The game stores here all seem very anxious to host weekend games, so they can demonstrate products, provide recommendations, satisfy the customers' "I need that NOW!" urge for something cool they've just been shown, that they don't want to wait to ship. It's as much a service industry as it is a mercantile one, if not more so.
When I had my character creation session for the Star Wars Saga game at the FLGS, some of the guys at the store saw I was running a Star Wars game, asked if I had any room at the table, then walked over to the shelf and picked up a copy of the Saga rules.
By the next week a couple of them had also picked up books like Scum and Villainy because I had said it was okay for the campaign. And they picked it up from the FLGS.
Local gaming stores are like local music stores - great when they are run by knowledgeable, helpful staff who encourage your interests and help expose you to new material; terrible when the staff are snobs who spend more time slagging the interests of their customers and essentially preventing sales. I've had good and bad experiences at both, and I wish I had a local gaming store nearby where I live now. But that complaint - "they can get it cheaper online" holds true for all bookstores. Heck, this week I went into Borders to get a book for my mom, and while I was there I grabbed Jacinto's Remnant (Gears of Wars tie-in novel) on impulse. On Amazon, I could have saved a few bucks, but I was there, it was there, and I bought it so I could read it that night, instead of waiting a week or so. That's how bookstores work.
It's like the owner of a bookstore complaining that "they can read it for free in the library".
Example of added value for any GS owners who might be reading: break up miniature boxes so that folks can buy singles.
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Example of added value for any GS owners who might be reading: break up miniature boxes so that folks can buy singles.
My FLGS has done this from the beginning. When sales flagged from the change in product, they started repackaging minis in themed sets. I went in and bought minis for the first time in months.
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Just in reply to the remark that he can't compete against the cheaper pdf.
NONSENSE.
I love the cheap pdf - yes. $9.99 makes it so affordable. So I bought a pdf in addition ! to the hardbound copy. For that price I even started to buy pdf for my gaming group. I know most of them if they really get hooked will buy the book eventually as well.
So where will they get it from?
If a FLGS would be near by I'm sure that would be one option. But if they don't carry the book - well - guess what - they will buy it elsewhere on-line.
There is one more reason to buy it in a real shop compared to on-line. When you work, then deliveries can really cause headaches. No problem with most light books - but once it gets delivered by courier and not Royal Mail, it becomes a pain.
Next delivery depot is 50+km away - depending on company. So approx. 15-20% more I'm willing to pay in a real brick&mortar store where I get friendly advice. Interestingly enough - the most friendly advice and help I got from GamesWorkshop here. I wanted a Hydra and I wanted to learn how to pin miniatures.
I knew I paid a lot more to buy in in the shop instead of getting it on-line. But they showed me how to pin the first head and looked out when I pinned the second.
This is called extra service. Not everything is sold purely on price. But without good service you have a problem.
Thod
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Just in reply to the remark that he can't compete against the cheaper pdf.
NONSENSE.
I love the cheap pdf - yes. $9.99 makes it so affordable. So I bought a pdf in addition ! to the hardbound copy. For that price I even started to buy pdf for my gaming group. I know most of them if they really get hooked will buy the book eventually as well.
Thod
You just reminded me of the big controversy when Paizo announed the pdf price. Many people thought it would have a bad effect on LGS sales. I'm guessing this was not the case considering the first printing sold out so quickly!
Local gaming stores are like local music stores - great when they are run by knowledgeable, helpful staff who encourage your interests and help expose you to new material
The funny thing our FLGS owner used to work at a music store.
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You just reminded me of the big controversy when Paizo announed the pdf price. Many people thought it would have a bad effect on LGS sales. I'm guessing this was not the case considering the first printing sold out so quickly!Just in reply to the remark that he can't compete against the cheaper pdf.
NONSENSE.
I love the cheap pdf - yes. $9.99 makes it so affordable. So I bought a pdf in addition ! to the hardbound copy. For that price I even started to buy pdf for my gaming group. I know most of them if they really get hooked will buy the book eventually as well.
Thod
I decided to test-run the final version by buying the pdf. I enjoyed it enough to buy the hardcopy from my FLGS. Overall I probably spent an extra $20 doing this over getting the book from Paizo, but I like to diversify.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Thanks to the Core Rulebook, I have now seen a Paizo product in a Borders store (DFW). Before, I only saw Paizo products at Barnes & Noble.WTF? I called a Borders store about this and they said it was an online-only product!
This is wrong, or at least it will be soon. Borders has ordered hundreds of copies of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, far more than they usually order for one of our Adventure Path volumes or other products. The Core Rulebook, with its nice thick spine and huge demand, is a perfect product for a store like Borders, and they know it.
However, their order came in after we had sold out, so apart from a few early orders it will probably not appear in stores until October, when the reprint (and the Bestiary, which Borders has also ordered) will arrive.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I just got concerned by the product not being on the shelves for casual gamers to see and take a peek at. The guy I talked to at the LGS said that he thinks Pathfinder is "awesome," but couldn't stock it due to competition from online sales, especially the PDF versions (forgot to say he talked about PDF's in my original post).
To me, it seemed like he wanted to stock it, but doing so was not profitable.
I have had many conversations with retailers, at trade shows and in online forums. It is a understatement to say that some of them are _very_ skeptical of PDF sales, and believe they massively cut into their profits.
I believe that this is a narrow, outdated view, but I certainly understand these retailers' point of view. I once managed a retail store, and it is a difficult business. I respect these guys for sticking to their convictions, even though I don't agree with them on the value of PDFs in the overall marketplace.
I hope to change their minds. A LOT of retailers are carrying Pathfinder and having great success with it, so I trust overall demand and product performance will be the most convincing argument.
I actively use both the books and pdfs in prep for and during games. The PDF is fine for quick searches and snagging stat blocks and maps for building encounters in Word and such, but the books (modules mainly) are better for study, carrying around the table while drawing dry-erase maps, showing the players art of the critters they are facing, etc.
Having both proves to be quite effective. I explained exactly this to my FLGS when they asked about the PDF sales - as I was buying my second copy of the core rulebook (the first being directly via Paizo). So, they are happy to order more PF stuff, knowing that active gamers will tend to buy both. In fact, a number of book sales can be attributed to people downloading the PDF and subsequently wanting the print version.
The PDFs, in my experience, function as more of an adjunct to game prep and play, rather than a complete replacement for the books. Each is practical for different reasons that all contribute to successful gaming sessions.
I concede that my above conclusion is the result of one anecdotal interaction with a clerk at my local gaming store, but it does make me wonder if availability in gaming stores is an issue and if Pathfinder is missing some customers by not being on the shelves.
Yep, Amazon and Chapters will always be the cheapest way to buy RPG books. Generally only 1 or 2 books puts you into the free shipping amount too. This is the way I buy my RPG books (except Pathfinder) because I buy so darn many of them.
I love my dead tree books, but PDF's are just so handy as well... so I like to have both. With Pathfinder's subscription method, I get both. Yes, I am paying a fair bit more to do this, but I prefer this method. The PDF is also nice to have, since they will update it to fix errata and such.
Sadly, Amazon and Chapters have hurt gaming store sales a bit, but there's still many people that enjoy regularly visiting their gaming stores and buying a book to have for its immediate use. (Also, sometimes I need to justify why I drove to the store, so I'll buy something anyways -- plus I have no concerns about spending a few extra bucks now and then to support my local gaming store.)
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I called a Borders store about this and they said it was an online-only product!This is wrong, or at least it will be soon.
Ya, the Borders across the street from my job has it. They only had two copies, and typically keep 5 or 6 of new RPG products out, so I wasn't sure if it was due to selling them fast or only having a small initial order.
I also purchased my hardcover book from local gaming/comic shop, and as far as I know he was only able to get me that one copy.
This http://paizo.com/image/Content/Conventions/GenCon2009-LisaStevens-1M3YXXY.j peg is my game store owner. Greyish shirt and tan shorts.
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Our LGS is the ONLY LGS for some distance. They have the luxury of running their store however they want because there is no competition.
There is a group of us who would LOVE to open our own store. We all complain about the lack of customer service and think we would do extremely well just by being friendly and welcoming to customers and working hard to provide them the experience and resources they want.
I think too many stores are closing because they are run by gamers and not business people. The two are not mutual. Honestly, those stores probably should close down eventually, and make room for better stores that will grow the industry, not hurt it with bad reputations and snobbish attitudes.
If a store owner is complaining about online competition and PDFs, then he probably needs to close down or sell out to someone who knows how to run a business.
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I am going to admit to a dirty little secret right now.
I have not bought a book from a RPG store in years...
Why?
Well mostly due to the fact I am overseas and it is too damn expensive over here, and it is cheaper for me to buy online even with shipping costs.. Helps I don't pay international fees for shipping.
Last time I was a regular at a RPG store was 2000, before I joined the Air Force, since them I only have used them for buying out of print books. I have found some neat stuff in some of these RPG stores in Europe, things I could not find any where else.
I doubt though I will ever use a RPG store again for regular buying of RPG books, other then maybe Minis and Dice and finding other players.
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If a store owner is complaining about online competition and PDFs, then he probably needs to close down or sell out to someone who knows how to run a business.
Thats not always the case though. A lot of times, there isn't enough people to keep them open. Particularly in smaller towns, where ordinary books stores like Borders and Barnes and Nobles can also carry them at pretty much the same price but can also offer 1.) other books of interest as well and 2.) discounts and rewards for shopping there in general.
Some things that gaming stores need to look into, aside from upping customer service, is expanding into other areas of interest that both online and general bookstores can not really offer. One of those things is (free or cheap) open gaming rooms, selling other related things, (such as comics) and also possibly opening their own online sites through the store.
Andy, (guy in pic above) recently did a customer in store auction, where anyone that wanted to could basically sell their old geek stuff to other gamers and comic guys, and I imagine made a nice little profit himself, as well as probably got his (newer) store notice a bit more.
Thanks to the Core Rulebook, I have now seen a Paizo product in a Borders store (DFW). Before, I only saw Paizo products at Barnes & Noble.WTF? I called a Borders store about this and they said it was an online-only product!
I've worked at a Borders and can say that not every store location carries the same items or the same quantity of an item. What and how much is carried at any specific store is determined by the Home Office in Ann Arbor, MI.
Individual stores have very, very little say in what items they carry excepting some items for the Local Interest section and even those are being increasingly restricted.
So, it is very possible that the Core Rulebook is only available as a special order at that Borders location if Ann Arbor has determined that that location won't carry it in the store.
FWIW, the location where I have worked just received one copy of the Core Rulebook and its RPG section normally only carries WotC and White Wolf's nWoD books with almost no exceptions.
Ultimately the ONLY reason I find for a local game store is instant gratification. I can buy minis, paints, comics, movies, you name it, for cheaper online.Well, okay, one other reason is that I occasionally find a new game or something there that I wouldn't have seen otherwise.
That's honestly the biggest reason I shop at my LGS. (BTW, what does the F in FLGS stand for?)
Ultimately the ONLY reason I find for a local game store is instant gratification. I can buy minis, paints, comics, movies, you name it, for cheaper online.Well, okay, one other reason is that I occasionally find a new game or something there that I wouldn't have seen otherwise.
** spoiler omitted **
That's honestly the biggest reason I shop at my LGS. (BTW, what does the F in FLGS stand for?)
F = Friendly
Ultimately the ONLY reason I find for a local game store is instant gratification. I can buy minis, paints, comics, movies, you name it, for cheaper online.Well, okay, one other reason is that I occasionally find a new game or something there that I wouldn't have seen otherwise.
** spoiler omitted **
That's honestly the biggest reason I shop at my LGS. (BTW, what does the F in FLGS stand for?)
F = Friendly
Well, in that case, it's definitely my FLGS. North Coast Role Playing is GREAT, and Barry is always really helpful.
Burn Walmart, burn. . . j/k
You may be kidding, but I'm not.
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Creative Director
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Well, in that case, it's definitely my FLGS. North Coast Role Playing is GREAT, and Barry is always really helpful.
Is that the store in Eureka, right on 101? I drive by it every time I'm making the pilgrimage down to or up from Point Arena, and keep wanting to stop to check it out but by the time I get there I've been on the road for hours and slowing down is a little bit crazy-talk.
Well, in that case, it's definitely my FLGS. North Coast Role Playing is GREAT, and Barry is always really helpful.Is that the store in Eureka, right on 101? I drive by it every time I'm making the pilgrimage down to or up from Point Arena, and keep wanting to stop to check it out but by the time I get there I've been on the road for hours and slowing down is a little bit crazy-talk.
Yup. They don't carry much Pathfinder stuff though, just a select few adventures from the AP's (I think the first ones of each), and the core book (but that sold out in less then a week). This area doesn't seem to have Golarion Fever, and since most of the pathfinder stuff is Golarion specific, I think he's just sticking with what sells around here, the core stuff (he told me he would make sure he got enough of the bestiary and the GM screen when they come out).
You should totally stop by and check it out.
Oh, and let me know when you're gonna be there, cause I'd love to meet someone that has helped create the game I love.
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Creative Director
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Yup. They don't carry much Pathfinder stuff, just a select few adventures from the AP's (I think the first ones of each), and the core book (but that sold out in less then a week).
You should totally stop by and check it out.
Oh, and let me know when you're gonna be there, cause I'd love to meet someone that has helped create the game I love.
The drive down to Point Arena usually coincides with Christmas. The drive down sees me passing by there, usually, at either about 7:00 PM (if I drive non-stop) or probably about noon if I split the drive into 2 days and stay overnight at Grants Pass. Going north from the parents' place in Point Arena puts me driving through Eureka at about 1:00 PM.
This information brought to you by my Magic Rock (AKA my iPhone).
Yup. They don't carry much Pathfinder stuff, just a select few adventures from the AP's (I think the first ones of each), and the core book (but that sold out in less then a week).
You should totally stop by and check it out.
Oh, and let me know when you're gonna be there, cause I'd love to meet someone that has helped create the game I love.
The drive down to Point Arena usually coincides with Christmas. The drive down sees me passing by there, usually, at either about 7:00 PM (if I drive non-stop) or probably about noon if I split the drive into 2 days and stay overnight at Grants Pass. Going north from the parents' place in Point Arena puts me driving through Eureka at about 1:00 PM.
This information brought to you by my Magic Rock (AKA my iPhone).
Well, I have time, now I just need a date! I mean, I know you said "coincides with Christmas", does that mean you'd be coming through at 7 pm on the 25th, or at Noon on the 26th?
(okay, this is getting to be a bit stalker-y)
I haven't set foot in an RPG store in...twenty years, maybe? Yikes.