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Okay so I'm fine with abstraction for the most part, but I think mithral takes it waaaaaaaaay to far for my comfort. Specifically the pricing makes absolutely no sense in any way. Mithral Items are +500 gp per pound, okay that makes perfect sense. Mithral is a rare metal with some mechanical benefits to it. mithral shirt 1100 gp, weight 10 lbs. WTF? a greataxe made of mithral will weigh 6 lbs, that's 3000gp (which crazily enough is the same cost as an adamantine great axe. Full plate is 25 lbs of mithral, it should cost 12500 gp, instead it costs 9000gp. I don't know if this was true in 3.5 as no one ever bothered to get mithral weapons, but now that I know about it, it just makes no sense, how is armor which actually more complex and harder to make in most cases than the weapons (i.e. a lot more individual pieces and much more craftsmanship) somehow cheaper?
I need a new cost for weapons made of mithral or I need armor costs to match the by weight of mithral.
Suggestions?
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The price for mithral in pounds is meant for non-armor items, and all around items that aren't mentioned in the list, e.g. weapons.
Also, you base the mithral price on the basic weapon weight, not the altered weight. Thus a Mithral Greataxe would cost 6000 gp extra. It's just not meant to be.
But do remember that a small dagger (for halflings and such) made of mithral costs only 250 gp more (since it weights only half a pound) and it's still masterwork quality. You save 50 gp, and the weapon also counts as silver regarding DR. Yay!
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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If you're looking for a non-gamerule reason for the cost difference, consider that the mithral shirt is not 100% made of mithral, so some of the item's weight comes from the leather straps to affix the armor to the user, along with the metal buckles for the straps (which are probably made of iron).
No game rule cited, but I believe it could be a plausible explanation for some of the discrepancy.
Overall the game has always had funky price issues if you compare weapons, armor, and non-combat items. The game artificially raises the value of a weapon over armor over a backpack.
Take a +3 Sword vs. a +3 Shield vs. a Handy Haversack. (All are caster level 9 I believe.)
If an item is listed specifically use the listed cost. If it is not listed us the 500 GP/lbs guideline and check with your GM.
Masterwork leather should not have the same mark up as masterwork full plate. A masterwork wooden club should not have the same mark up as a masterwork greatsword. So since Mithral counts as masterwork you already have some inherent variation as it is.
Finally, Adamantine is not longer a flat out better weapon the Mithral. With the silver change they both have their possible uses so equal cost is about as fair as material variation gets.
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The price for mithral in pounds is meant for non-armor items, and all around items that aren't mentioned in the list, e.g. weapons.
Also, you base the mithral price on the basic weapon weight, not the altered weight. Thus a Mithral Greataxe would cost 6000 gp extra. It's just not meant to be.
But do remember that a small dagger (for halflings and such) made of mithral costs only 250 gp more (since it weights only half a pound) and it's still masterwork quality. You save 50 gp, and the weapon also counts as silver regarding DR. Yay!
So you don't think it's insane then that a mithral greataxe then costs twice as much as an adamantine one?
Protip: Mithral was not meant as a weapon material. Don't try to use it as such.
check with your GM.I'm the GM, I want a pricing method that makes a little more sense. and I disagree that th silver change makes them equal, mithral beats DR silver, Adamantine beats DR adamantine, I don't think weighing half as much is equal to beating all hardness.
I am of the mind set that weighting half as much is equal to beating all hardness below 20. Titanium verssu tungeten, I know which material I want for parts in my motorcycle. Lightness is a huge advantage for many areas.
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I am of the mind set that weighting half as much is equal to beating all hardness below 20. Titanium verssu tungeten, I know which material I want for parts in my motorcycle. Lightness is a huge advantage for many areas.check with your GM.I'm the GM, I want a pricing method that makes a little more sense. and I disagree that th silver change makes them equal, mithral beats DR silver, Adamantine beats DR adamantine, I don't think weighing half as much is equal to beating all hardness.
in real life yes, in game life, when has your weapon weighing 3-6lbs lighter but being the exact same size ever made a significant difference.
I can see your point. The major advantage comes in armor and shields. I do agree with you an expansion of the table on how much it cost to make an item out of mithral should have been expanded. Without looking at the rules, would using the adamatine prices work?
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Strength damage. Encumbrance.
stregth damage doesn't change based on the weight of an item. and yes encumbrance plays a part of the game, but really how often are you trying to squeeze out an extra three pounds. And by the time you're getting mithral weapons you are also getting handy haversacks and bags of holding, especially at the current standard for mithral weapons.
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I can see your point. The major advantage comes in armor and shields. I do agree with you an expansion of the table on how much it cost to make an item out of mithral should have been expanded. Without looking at the rules, would using the adamatine prices work?
I just honestly think that adamantine weapons should be more expensive, especially when you note the difference in price between mithral armor and adamantine armor. That's where I drew my prices from in my second post.
If you look both adamantine and alchemical silver have prices that list weapons and ammunition. So I did the same thing and tried to find a price that works as approximately the same as the difference between the mithral armors and adamantine armors.
Protip: Mithral was not meant as a weapon material. Don't try to use it as such.
Bull. There have always been a handful of good reasons to make mithral weapons, and now it also counts as silver which rather explicitly makes it intended for weapons.
LKL, I'd put it at either +1000gp (same as a mithral shield) or +600gp (same as the ratio of light armor to weapon for adamantine).
Why not go for 600gp, twice the cost of Masterworked.
For those who don't like Mythral as a weapon you could always add the Masterworked bonus to Initiative. In some of my games we allowed it to count as Silver and Cold Iron.
Another idea we had was having price bases on weapon size. For instance and Admantine Dagger costs 1000 gp, longsword 3000 gp, great sword 6000 gp. To figure out Masterwork just divide those prices by 10.
For those who don't like Mythral as a weapon you could always add the Masterworked bonus to Initiative. In some of my games we allowed it to count as Silver and Cold Iron.
That bonus to initiative thing will make games weird. A guy wearing a mithral gauntlet will have higher initiative than a guy who goes barehanded.
For those who don't like Mythral as a weapon you could always add the Masterworked bonus to Initiative. In some of my games we allowed it to count as Silver and Cold Iron.That bonus to initiative thing will make games weird. A guy wearing a mithral gauntlet will have higher initiative than a guy who goes barehanded.
It was a quick thought, as I said we had Mithiral Weapons counting as Silver and Cold Iron.
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A clarification for armor versus weapon manufacture.....
First, a mithril shirt, being just a chain shirt, can be all metal. The wire is made into rings which is then woven together and acts as cloth.
As for difficulty to manufacture, from personal experience, armor is MUCH easier to make than weapons. I can make a chain shirt in a week just sitting in front of the tv with enough rings and 2 pairs of pliers.
Um you're completely forgetting that someone else forged all of those individual rings for you, and you're also forgetting that this is in a time where that person has to forge each individual ring for manufacture, not a robot assembly line. Then it gets to the person who does the joining, and there I'll admit the guy who actually puts the links into making a chain shirt has it comparatively easy.
Plate, I have not made, but I have made brigandine, just sheet metal plates rivited to leather. That takes time, but is fairly easy if you have access to an anvil and the right hammer. A coat of plates (brigandine shirt) can be made in a weekend. Nothing overly fancy, but fully functional and historically accurate.
someone had to make it into that sheet metal from which you cut out, it wasn't mined in nice sheets, and didn't arrive in medieval shops in nice sheets, it usually arrived as ore that was then melted and shaped to need if I'm not mistaken ( I may be, I'm no expert on medieval blacksmithing)
Unlike armor, weapons on the other hand are not cut and shaped out of sheet steel, and require vast amounts of training to make, years of apprenticing at the forge. It is very specialized work, and even with the correct tools and access to a forge is very difficult work.
I'm pretty sure that so did crafting the individual pieces for armor in that time period.
Also, you base the mithral price on the basic weapon weight, not the altered weight. Thus a Mithral Greataxe would cost 6000 gp extra. It's just not meant to be.
Do you have a reference for that? I'm not seeing one.
Suggestions?
Mithril armor is mass produced by Chinese dwarven smiths using child labor. Mithril weapons are custom crafted lovingly by a local maker.
Ok... something like that. I try not to worry about in game economics much, too many silly things.
:: In reference to the topic title ::
Mithral kills you? means Dr/silver, but he looks like a human -- HOLY SMOKES HE'S A LYCANTHROPE!
nope polymorphed pit fiend :):: In reference to the topic title ::
Mithral kills you? means Dr/silver, but he looks like a human -- HOLY SMOKES HE'S A LYCANTHROPE!
So Word of Chaos will bother you?
Too bad for you. I took that concept a bit further. I went past Sentence of Chaos in seconds, then Paragraph of Chaos... Now basically everything I say counts as a Word of Chaos effect. And I make Eddy Murphy sound like Henry Kissinger.
Borrow a line from Monte Cook, and just make weapons made out of mithral finessable.
Keep in mind that a chain shirt still has a cloth component underneath. Otherwise you run your body hair between the rings, and it is very, very painful...
As for adamantine pricing, I heard it explained that the cost of the metal is NOT the basis for the pricing increase...it's only part of it. The amount of adamantine in adamantine armor is not 100%...it's alloyed with steel. Pure adamant armor would be too brittle to use.
Likewise, adamantine weapons don't need to be 100% adamantine...only the cutting edges. The inner parts are probably made of interwoven hard/soft layers, just like standard folding steel patterns.
As for the pricing issues with the mithral weapons, add the cost of the mithral to a masterwork weapon clears up all discrepencies.
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The rings for making mail can be cast in comparatively no time at all. Molds to do so are probably standard issue. All you'd need to do is melt the metal, which is probably the hardest part of working with mithral and adamantine...getting the stuff hot enough to be able to shape it.
BTW, I'd also make Adamantine overcome DR cold Iron if you are going to make Mithral finessable. This would emphatically make each kind of metal the preferred thing for weapons in high level play, one for Dex monkeys, the other for normal fighters.
===Aelryinth
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I've been looking at this myself and am thinking of doing something like the way alchemical silver is priced.
Light weapon - 500gp
One handed weapon - 1000gp (or one end of a double weapon)
Two handed weapon - 2000 gpAmmo - 1000pg per 50 (20gp each)
Also looking to do similar for adamantine weapons for consistency.
Light - 1500gp
One Hand - 3000gp
Two Hand - 6000gpAmmo - 3000 gp per 50 (60gp each)
Adamantine Shields (not listed) - 3000gp (same as one handed weapon)
And I make Eddy Murphy sound like Henry Kissinger.
Eddie Kissinger?
I like this idea even better than my solution in my second post, they really should have had all special materials in the game have the same chart price breakdown. I know some aren't used for everything (i.e. alchemical silver is only good for weapons) but if it could be placed on a weapon it should have the same cost breakdown as another special material, same with armor, and then special materials that don't cover both could just leave off the portion they don't cover.
So you don't think it's insane then that a mithral greataxe then costs twice as much as an adamantine one?The price for mithral in pounds is meant for non-armor items, and all around items that aren't mentioned in the list, e.g. weapons.
Also, you base the mithral price on the basic weapon weight, not the altered weight. Thus a Mithral Greataxe would cost 6000 gp extra. It's just not meant to be.
But do remember that a small dagger (for halflings and such) made of mithral costs only 250 gp more (since it weights only half a pound) and it's still masterwork quality. You save 50 gp, and the weapon also counts as silver regarding DR. Yay!
That is a good point. Perhaps you could do a % math and find out the % adamantine is compaired to their armors and apply that same % increase to mithral weapons.
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Lehmuska wrote:
Protip: Mithral was not meant as a weapon material. Don't try to use it as such.
Bull. There have always been a handful of good reasons to make mithral weapons, and now it also counts as silver which rather explicitly makes it intended for weapons.
LKL, I'd put it at either +1000gp (same as a mithral shield) or +600gp (same as the ratio of light armor to weapon for adamantine).
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Let's not forget that the Beastiary is not out yet. There may be a collection of monsters that have DR/Mithral that you would need these type of weapons for, other than the monsters with DR/silver. I have always thought that DR/Mithral would have been better if used on mosters that currently have DR/Magic, it would make fighting Dragons more interesting.
Lehmuska wrote:
Protip: Mithral was not meant as a weapon material. Don't try to use it as such.Bull. There have always been a handful of good reasons to make mithral weapons, and now it also counts as silver which rather explicitly makes it intended for weapons.
LKL, I'd put it at either +1000gp (same as a mithral shield) or +600gp (same as the ratio of light armor to weapon for adamantine).
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Let's not forget that the Beastiary is not out yet. There may be a collection of monsters that have DR/Mithral that you would need these type of weapons for, other than the monsters with DR/silver. I have always thought that DR/Mithral would have been better if used on mosters that currently have DR/Magic, it would make fighting Dragons more interesting.
Mithral counts as silver, I don't see DR/Mithral any time soon because of that.
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Okay so sorry for the thread ressurection I just wanted to post what I finally ended up with, thank you everyone who contributed ideas you see in the final costs
First the Mithral breakdown
+600gp for one handed or one end of a double weapon
+1000gp for two handed or both ends or a double weapon*
+400gp for light weapons
+15gp for each piece of ammunition
This winds up being more expensive for a few light weapons, but cheaper for 90% of the weapons on the chart.
Now adamantine breakdown
+3000gp for one handed weapons or one end of a double weapon
+5000gp for two handed weapons or both ends of a double weapon*
+2000gp for a light weapon
+60gp for each piece of ammunition
this winds up costing a player more for double weapons, but makes light weapons and ammunition cheaper so I think it balances out.
* a two handed weapon can be made at the cost of a one handed weapon if it has a wooden haft (i.e. longspear, glaive, etc.), however it's hardness will not change for the purposes of sunder.
If I am reading this right, ammo for mithral should be 12 gp.
If I am reading this right, ammo for mithral should be 12 gp.
Depends on the ammunition - mithral costs 500 gp per pre-reduction pound excepting armors and shields. Arrows weigh differently from bolts weigh differently from sling bullets weight differently from shuriken weigh differently from ...
If I am reading this right, ammo for mithral should be 12 gp.Depends on the ammunition - mithral costs 500 gp per pre-reduction pound excepting armors and shields. Arrows weigh differently from bolts weigh differently from sling bullets weight differently from shuriken weigh differently from ...
Hey Mad. I think your missing my point.
As it looks like in his chart for the new modified costs for mithral and weapons is that mithral is 1/5th the cost of adamantine. This is consistent till the ammo.
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A clarification for armor versus weapon manufacture.....
First, a mithril shirt, being just a chain shirt, can be all metal. The wire is made into rings which is then woven together and acts as cloth.
As for difficulty to manufacture, from personal experience, armor is MUCH easier to make than weapons. I can make a chain shirt in a week just sitting in front of the tv with enough rings and 2 pairs of pliers.
Um you're completely forgetting that someone else forged all of those individual rings for you, and you're also forgetting that this is in a time where that person has to forge each individual ring for manufacture, not a robot assembly line. Then it gets to the person who does the joining, and there I'll admit the guy who actually puts the links into making a chain shirt has it comparatively easy.
Plate, I have not made, but I have made brigandine, just sheet metal plates rivited to leather. That takes time, but is fairly easy if you have access to an anvil and the right hammer. A coat of plates (brigandine shirt) can be made in a weekend. Nothing overly fancy, but fully functional and historically accurate.someone had to make it into that sheet metal from which you cut out, it wasn't mined in nice sheets, and didn't arrive in medieval shops in nice sheets, it usually arrived as ore that was then melted and shaped to need if I'm not mistaken ( I may be, I'm no expert on medieval blacksmithing)
Unlike armor, weapons on the other hand are not cut and shaped out of sheet steel, and require vast amounts of training to make, years of apprenticing at the forge. It is very specialized work, and even with the correct tools and access to a forge is very difficult work.I'm pretty sure that so did crafting the individual pieces for armor in that time period.
Not to nitpick but making rings for a chain shirt is fairly easy. So is getting sheets of metal to make armor from. So is making weapons.
Realistically there were many different people making the components that got transformed into the finished product. Blanks used for weapons, thin-stock used for armor plating, and usually the armorsmith ordered the chain links or at minimum the extruded metal wire that was heated, wrapped around a correct sized rod and cut into the individual links by the hundreds at a time. Weapon and armor smiths didn't usually work raw metal into finished products unless they had no other options, and had suppliers that usually dealt in stock metal for certain applications.Remember that ore is heavily refined in a foundry and cast into rough stock forms for easy sale to the blacksmiths. Some blacksmiths may have worked without such an option but most didn't once plate armor hit the scene.
Mithral price isn't based on game balance.
It's just ridiculously rare.
Sometimes you can't use price to balance something.
Um you're completely forgetting that someone else forged all of those individual rings for you
Forged rings? What's the point?
1. Draw a long steel wire.
2. Wind tightly around a cylindrical object.
3. Cut lengthwise.
You know have a whole bunch of easily-made steel rings.
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Mithral price isn't based on game balance.
It's just ridiculously rare.
Sometimes you can't use price to balance something.
right, but based on the prices given, 6 pounds of mithral is apparently as rare as 12 pounds of adamantine, even though 11 pounds of mithral is less rare than 22 lbs of adamantine. (granted that said I understand that armor isn't 100% metal, it still is an equal ratio with dispproportionate pricing.
right, but based on the prices given, 6 pounds of mithral is apparently as rare as 12 pounds of adamantine, even though 11 pounds of mithral is less rare than 22 lbs of adamantine. (granted that said I understand that armor isn't 100% metal, it still is an equal ratio with dispproportionate pricing.Mithral price isn't based on game balance.
It's just ridiculously rare.
Sometimes you can't use price to balance something.
Is it less rare?
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Is it less rare?right, but based on the prices given, 6 pounds of mithral is apparently as rare as 12 pounds of adamantine, even though 11 pounds of mithral is less rare than 22 lbs of adamantine. (granted that said I understand that armor isn't 100% metal, it still is an equal ratio with dispproportionate pricing.Mithral price isn't based on game balance.
It's just ridiculously rare.
Sometimes you can't use price to balance something.
huh?
huh?
I think Loopy wrote:
Is it less rare?
in remark to this statement:
right, but based on the prices given, 6 pounds of mithral is apparently as rare as 12 pounds of adamantine, even though 11 pounds of mithral than 22 lbs of adamantine. (granted that said I understand that armor isn't 100% metal, it still is an equal ratio with dispproportionate pricing.
emphasis mine
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huh?I think Loopy wrote:
Is it less rare?in remark to this statement:
right, but based on the prices given, 6 pounds of mithral is apparently as rare as 12 pounds of adamantine, even though 11 pounds of mithral than 22 lbs of adamantine. (granted that said I understand that armor isn't 100% metal, it still is an equal ratio with dispproportionate pricing.
emphasis mine
Right because loopy earlier stated
Mithral price isn't based on game balance.
It's just ridiculously rare.
The reason we asked huh is because he's then asking if it's less rare, which if it's based on price yes it is, less rare, means more common. So why is 6lbs of mithral rarer than 11lbs of mithral?
When comparing the price of mithral (and adamentine for that matter), one has to realized that in the +9000 gp for a mithral heavy armor, there are not 9000 gp worth of mithral, not even of mithral alloy.
The 9000 extra gp is what it costs to create a heavy armor made of mithral, including raw materials and overhead costs. Remember that raw materials do not equal ore (in other words, there is less than 9000 gp worth of mithral in that +9000 gp price tag). Raw materials include coal for the forge, tools, rent to the forge's proprietor or taxes to the landlord, fees to the guild etc. Basically, everything that the character has to take care of but the player shouldn't have to worry about.
Maybe it takes a super-forge to melt and heat mithral to the proper level to make a full plate. That may cost extra, but not significantly more than if you where making a half-plate... So mithral is expensive because it is rare, but also because its a pain to work with. I'd expect a fair bit of the price of an adamantine weapon to go in the grinding and sharpening stage; how do you sharpen a metal that has a hardness of 20? A diamond grinding wheel? Can't be cheap...
There are plenty of similar situation in real-life: Wood cost more per foot the longer the lumber is. Candy cost less per pound the bigger the package is.
Conclusion: mithral full plates are made of candy and not of wood... OK, maybe not, but I don't think you should try to rationalize cost vs weight. That kind of puts you in a strange situation because "other items" are listed in a cost-per-weight relation to guide you toward a price for these "other items". Coming with prices for weapons was the right way to go, but you should not have to do this with every single item. One needs to accept that this guideline is just that: a guide and not a underlying rule.
'findel
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When comparing the price of mithral (and adamentine for that matter), one has to realized that in the +9000 gp for a mithral heavy armor, there are not 9000 gp worth of mithral, not even of mithral alloy.
The 9000 extra gp is what it costs to create a heavy armor made of mithral, including raw materials and overhead costs. Remember that raw materials do not equal ore (in other words, there is less than 9000 gp worth of mithral in that +9000 gp price tag). Raw materials include coal for the forge, tools, rent to the forge's proprietor or taxes to the landlord, fees to the guild etc. Basically, everything that the character has to take care of but the player shouldn't have to worry about.
Maybe it takes a super-forge to melt and heat mithral to the proper level to make a full plate. That may cost extra, but not significantly more than if you where making a half-plate... So mithral is expensive because it is rare, but also because its a pain to work with. I'd expect a fair bit of the price of an adamantine weapon to go in the grinding and sharpening stage; how do you sharpen a metal that has a hardness of 20? A diamond grinding wheel? Can't be cheap...
There are plenty of similar situation in real-life: Wood cost more per foot the longer the lumber is. Candy cost less per pound the bigger the package is.
Conclusion: mithral full plates are made of candy and not of wood... OK, maybe not, but I don't think you should try to rationalize cost vs weight. That kind of puts you in a strange situation because "other items" are listed in a cost-per-weight relation to guide you toward a price for these "other items". Coming with prices for weapons was the right way to go, but you should not have to do this with every single item. One needs to accept that this guideline is just that: a guide and not a underlying rule.
'findel
Um I didn't rationalize cost vs. weight, the rules did by making weapons made of mithral cost based off of weight, which I then changed to make it individual items. Problem solved, then Loopy came in and claimed the price was based on rarity, which would make it based on weight again. I agree with you, which is why I took weight out of the equation. And I'm not trying to do it with every item, so I don't even understand why you felt the need to say that?
Um I didn't rationalize cost vs. weight, the rules did by making weapons made of mithral cost based off of weight, which I then changed to make it individual...
Ahhh. Get it now. Please ignore then.